Roll20 reddit story

[Dungeon-noob]

I'm not entirely sure if this post is appropriate, but as Roll20 has some users and such on this forum, i thought maybe some people might be interested in hearing about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comment..._cancelled_and

If this isn't okay to post here, apoligies in advance. I just hope some people would be interested to know about this.

[Mordaedil]

Guy gets banned because account is similarly named to someone else and makes a threat if his account isn't restored.

Do not negotiate with terrorists.

[Knaight]

It's a disgruntled customer threatening to talk about how the company is terrible. That's not much of a threat, though deciding not to deal with a disgruntled customer's BS and just cut communications with them is something I'm all for in this case.

[Togath]

Okay, been thinking more about this, why are people even trusting that the banned guy's story is legit? Like, I haven't read/found where this started, but it already sounds like a wonky story, especially with the fact that in every version the dude(the banned guy) threatens and screams and insults people from step 1, rather than, like, something that doesn't escalate a situation from 1 to 11 in a split second.

[redwizard007]

Synopsis.

Guy got banned from a group he barely used for pretty lame reason, flew off the handle and got dissed by roll20.

[Mordaedil]

Okay, been thinking more about this, why are people even trusting that the banned guy's story is legit? Like, I haven't read/found where this started, but it already sounds like a wonky story, especially with the fact that in every version the dude(the banned guy) threatens and screams and insults people from step 1, rather than, like, something that doesn't escalate a situation from 1 to 11 in a split second.

Seriously, it reeks of entitlement. And it's worriesome that there's such a lack of critical thinking to lead that many people to downvote the dev.

Also doesn't help that reddit is what it is, I guess.

[Aresneo]

Okay, been thinking more about this, why are people even trusting that the banned guy's story is legit?

Between the sheer level of documentation provided by the poster and the fact that Roll20 has responded and confirmed the details we know that it is legitimate.

Most of the outrage over this is because Roll20 publicly admitted that they shouldn't have banned the user but decided to leave them banned anyways. The users actions are way more aggressive than they should be but Roll20 could have avoided this with a single reply talking about how they are investigating their claims and will make a decision when they hear back from the Reddit admins like they have admitted they where doing.

[Knaight]

Between the sheer level of documentation provided by the poster and the fact that Roll20 has responded and confirmed the details we know that it is legitimate.

Most of the outrage over this is because Roll20 publicly admitted that they shouldn't have banned the user but decided to leave them banned anyways. The users actions are way more aggressive than they should be but Roll20 could have avoided this with a single reply talking about how they are investigating their claims and will make a decision when they hear back from the Reddit admins like they have admitted they where doing.

They decided that they shouldn't have banned the user over what they banned them for. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't have subsequently banned them because of his histrionic series of messages, which is why they left the ban.

Not that removing the ban, sending an apology then banning him later, separately, for the messages wouldn't have been funnier.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Yeah, I'd have upheld the ban, too. The guy's clearly nothing but trouble. I hope he doesn't succeed in mobilising a mob against Roll20...

[Hurske]

I'm on the guys side because I've had a very bad experience with roll20, in the same vein as the banned guy.

When searching for an online platform several years ago, I was looking at both roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, one of my group mates, went on roll20 forum and asked about some comparisons, and he was outright banned. That sealed the deal for me, and never used roll20 because of it.

[Delta]

Yeah, I'd have upheld the ban, too. The guy's clearly nothing but trouble. I hope he doesn't succeed in mobilising a mob against Roll20...

This.

His conversation with Nolan was alright, but after not receiving an answer for 24 hours (and we have no idea if he really waited that long) he immediately escalated to writing to customer support (which he had no contact with up until this point) essentially "Hey, your moron moderator banned me, if you don't unban me and have him apologize to me, I'll quit!" that's just not a way to begin a communication with any kind of customer support if you're actually interested in solving the matter, and then he began spamming both the moderator queue and customer support because he didn't get an immediate answer.

The first ban might have been in error, but the guy really did nothing to help his case here.

[Malphegor]

Having read through it, it seems like there’s issues on both sides. Roll20 need to nominate a community moderator for social media presence who is not employed by them I think. The guy needs to hold off on escalation.

It does amuse me that there’s already people on reddit thinking this is more than a drop in the pond for profits for Roll20- it seems to be a mainly Reddit and Facebook thing, and without more people being interested quickly, this will be forgotten in a few weeks.

[Mordaedil]

I'm on the guys side because I've had a very bad experience with roll20, in the same vein as the banned guy.

When searching for an online platform several years ago, I was looking at both roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, one of my group mates, went on roll20 forum and asked about some comparisons, and he was outright banned. That sealed the deal for me, and never used roll20 because of it.

They don't outright ban for just asking questions or comparisons, I'm pretty sure your friend is leaving things out to make himself look better if that's the case.

[LordEntrails]

Between the sheer level of documentation provided by the poster and the fact that Roll20 has responded and confirmed the details we know that it is legitimate.

Most of the outrage over this is because Roll20 publicly admitted that they shouldn't have banned the user but decided to leave them banned anyways. The users actions are way more aggressive than they should be but Roll20 could have avoided this with a single reply talking about how they are investigating their claims and will make a decision when they hear back from the Reddit admins like they have admitted they where doing.

^^^ is correct. Nolan did lots of things wrong in this case. And their are numerous other cases that are documented (and now many of them are being publized on YouTube etc) that this is not the only problem Nolan has. He actually gave an interview at CyberSmiles a few years ago saying he "used to" cyber bully. Old habits die hard...

Yeah, I'd have upheld the ban, too. The guy's clearly nothing but trouble. I hope he doesn't succeed in mobilising a mob against Roll20...

40k+ downvotes on Nolan not-apology. Already done.

They don't outright ban for just asking questions or comparisons, I'm pretty sure your friend is leaving things out to make himself look better if that's the case.

Yes they do. I know three people who have personally had that happen to them with no warnings, positive post histories, etc. This is not some isolated case. This is SOP for Roll20. For those who have watched them closely for years, it's not new behavior.

[Mordaedil]

Excuse me if I don't outright buy that.

EDIT: Following this story on both reddit and Roll20 forums, there are now being posted videos that are extremely suspicious in their timing on the issue loaded with false information and lies meant to capitalize on the current event, so take anything posted today or later with a huge grain of salt.

[Delta]

Yes they do. I know three people who have personally had that happen to them with no warnings, positive post histories, etc. This is not some isolated case. This is SOP for Roll20. For those who have watched them closely for years, it's not new behavior.

My problem with the case as described by the poster himself to me sounds very much like he wanted this result. From this point on

I received no response for a day. I got more upset.

his behaviour to me very much gives the impression of someone who wanted to get himself banned (or rather, stay banned), who wanted to make this public as the wronged party to drag Roll20 through the mud, so I'll take everything he says with a big grain of salt. He did everything "right" at first to be able to claim being the one who wanted to solve this peacefully, and then at some point immediately escalated it to DEFCON 1 by spamming both the moderator queue and customer support with rather angry mails, which everyone familiar with how the internet works should know is not a good way to act if you actually want to get unbanned.

[Mordaedil]

I also tend to give people a bit more courtesy than to expect my complaints to be resolved within 24 hours. Heck, if it is a weekend, I'll be happy if I get it resolved by Monday evening at earliest.

[SaintRidley]

I feel like if you think that a customer complaining about poor customer service and telling others about their bad experience is a threat to your staff's livelihood and equivalent to attempting to burning the store down, you don't have any business running a business and you've ceded all credibility.

[LordEntrails]

My problem with the case as described by the poster himself to me sounds very much like he wanted this result. From this point on
...
his behaviour to me very much gives the impression of someone who wanted to get himself banned (or rather, stay banned), who wanted to make this public as the wronged party to drag Roll20 through the mud, so I'll take everything he says with a big grain of salt. He did everything "right" at first to be able to claim being the one who wanted to solve this peacefully, and then at some point immediately escalated it to DEFCON 1 by spamming both the moderator queue and customer support with rather angry mails, which everyone familiar with how the internet works should know is not a good way to act if you actually want to get unbanned.

As I think I said upthread, to me it's not about this one case. This one case is just one data point. The motivations of this one person isn't really relevant. It blowing up this time isn't really relevant. As I was quoted, this is well known behavior by Nolan. He even admits in an interview years ago with cybersmiles about cyber bullying that he has a problem with acting poorly on the internet. These types of bans and over-reactions that are then admitted as such, but not apologized for and are continued because the person was making a scene, or was (enter excuse) is something that happens by Roll20 staff and Nolan on a VERY regular basis.

This wouldn't have blown up, imo, unless their were other people who said, "hey, that happened to me", or "I saw that happen when" and said finally, this is enough.

I also tend to give people a bit more courtesy than to expect my complaints to be resolved within 24 hours. Heck, if it is a weekend, I'll be happy if I get it resolved by Monday evening at earliest.

I personally agree. But then again I've gotten complaints from customers who haven't gotten responses within 10 minutes! But the behavior was still wrong, and the response was even worse. (But again, if it had only been a single occurrence...)

[Mutazoia]

If I had a dime for every customer in my workplace who threw a tantrum, threatened to post bad reviews and never come back again....only to see them back the next week like nothing ever happened, I could buy Bill Gates with pocket change.

I would be willing to bet even money that most of those "down votes" are people who, until just that moment, had never even heard of Roll20, and were just gut reacting to some some random guys "woe-is-me" story. People these days, especially on line, seem to get most of their exercise from jumping to conclusions with very little else to go on than a sob story. Fox News makes its bread and butter on these kinds of people.....

But what it all, basically, boils down to is the fact that Roll20 is a private business, that is free to join. Membership costs nothing...you get banned, your out exactly **** all. Not a sausage.

So some poor schmuck got banned for having a bad attitude. Poor schmuck. Better luck next time. Grow up and get a life. If you are so unstable that you have to go this postal over getting banned from one website, you REALLY don't need to be running around in general population. Have a coke, and a smile while you wait for the nice guys in the white coats to bring you your jacket with the sleeves that wrap around the back.

[Delta]

But what it all, basically, boils down to is the fact that Roll20 is a private business, that is free to join. Membership costs nothing...you get banned, your out exactly **** all. Not a sausage.

I think it's worth pointing out that this is not about anyone being banned from Roll20, that didn't happen. He got banned from the Roll20 subreddit, big difference.

[Segev]

Assuming we take the one-sided presentation's word for it (and he does provide a lot of documentation), I think the "we're upholding the ban because you showed that you're angry about it" response is problematic. Yes, his response was an over-reaction. But he hardly disrupted their communities by contacting them through appropriate channels and attempting to go over the head of the guy he felt was abusing his power. Perhaps he should have been less quick to maintain his level of ire as he elevated his complaint up their ladder of customer support, but...really? Customers are going to be more angry the higher they go in the hierarchy, because they've been dealing with the same problem with no solution. If your customer support is that thin skinned at that level, you have a problem.

It also sounds like this "Nolan" fellow is a detriment to their service, and probably should be replaced.

Speaking purely from the perspective of handling customer service, Roll20 looks like they need to reexamine their staff and training.

[Enixon]

Yeah, I'd have upheld the ban, too. The guy's clearly nothing but trouble. I hope he doesn't succeed in mobilising a mob against Roll20...

If what I've seen on r/rpg is any indicator "too late"

Naturally anyone that points out the customer's awful behavior might just be a contributing factor to the ban being upheld, or even suggests "hey maybe this isn't worth a lynch mob" gets downvoted into oblivion.

[War_lord]

It's the usual internet outrage storm in a teacup that'll burn itself out once people get bored of drama and memes.

Roll20 is a private company, with a few legal exceptions that don't apply here they can ban whoever they want, from whatever space they want (yes, that includes their subreddit), for whatever reason they want. Don't like it? Don't use roll20. Like hey, Rich Burlew could wake up tomorrow, read some of my posts and decide to ban me because he doesn't like my attitude. Guess what, it's his forum, he has the right to do that. If I turned up demanding to be unbanned because I spent X amount of years here, I'd be laughed out. And since it was a reddit ban, it's not like the troll in question has actually been denied any meaningful assets.

It's not going to effect Roll20's bottom line, it's just yet another case of reddit being full of people who think reddit is the center of the universe.

[Anxe]

The subreddit got a new moderation team in response to this (or in response to the community response to this). They're going to write new community guidelines and hopefully have all the issues for fastbans on stuff as small as comparisons go away.

Negative event brings positive change?

[LordEntrails]

But what it all, basically, boils down to is the fact that Roll20 is a private business, that is free to join. Membership costs nothing...you get banned, your out exactly **** all. Not a sausage.

Yea, no. That's not really what it boils down to and just one of the errors in your logic.
The user in question did NOT have a free account, he had a paid account that he had paid a subscription to for years and he had purchased other content that was locked to the platform. Meaning if he had gotten banned from the service (which was threatened) he would have lost a measurable amount of money.

It also sounds like this "Nolan" fellow is a detriment to their service, and probably should be replaced.

He's a co-founder, so yea, not so easy to replace him. But then again, he shouldn't be doing tier 1 customer service either.

Negative event brings positive change?

There are signs that at least in the subreddit positive change is already occurring. i.e. people are posting improvement suggestions that they had posted before but had been deleted by the former mods.

For instance;

Reposting this with the hope it wont get taken down again thanks to a change in mods.
I've been working on this browser extension....

It's not going to effect Roll20's bottom line, it's just yet another case of reddit being full of people who think reddit is the center of the universe.

I disagree with that assumption. The question to me is will it be a blip or will it be a financial set back?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

He's a co-founder, so yea, not so easy to replace him. But then again, he shouldn't be doing tier 1 customer service either.

I agree, further he wasn't a regular r/roll20 user and probably expected to be dealing with peers rather than high level employees. None of the gaming subreddits I've posted to were run by the owners of the game. It looks like his first post was griping rather than a request for a customer service fix.

[Mordaedil]

Yea, no. That's not really what it boils down to and just one of the errors in your logic.
The user in question did NOT have a free account, he had a paid account that he had paid a subscription to for years and he had purchased other content that was locked to the platform. Meaning if he had gotten banned from the service (which was threatened) he would have lost a measurable amount of money.

Again, he wasn't banned from roll20, he was banned from the reddit. Deleting his account because he was banned from the reddit is like burning down your house because your mail got to the wrong address. It's really disproportional action to what happened. A ban is like a slap on the wrist. People really need to grow thicker skins about these sort of things.

[Segev]

Again, he wasn't banned from roll20, he was banned from the reddit. Deleting his account because he was banned from the reddit is like burning down your house because your mail got to the wrong address. It's really disproportional action to what happened. A ban is like a slap on the wrist. People really need to grow thicker skins about these sort of things.

While it still may be an overreaction, it's more akin to getting your mail sent to the wrong address, and then, when you ask the post office to correct the mistake, being told that they suspect you of identity theft and are going to call the FBI if you bother them about this again.

Then, when he proves he's not committing identity theft, they say that they're still refusing to send him mail because they've decided that his response to their accusation of identity theft and threat to go to the FBI was too hostile to allow their postal employees to come to his house.

Is it any wonder he decides to stop using the post office?

Again: he wasn't an angel in this. He got angry, and overreacted in a number of ways, but they're understandable ways. And the company behaved very unprofessionally. Most customer service people I know would have been thrilled at how little swearing and threats of violence were present in this exchange, and would have been expected to maintain a much more customer-satisfaction mindset even in the face of much worse behavior. This is not good customer service by Roll20. This is more the behavior of an ingroup feeling attacked by an outgroup they sometimes forget they have to tolerate.

[Mordaedil]

Holy crap, that isn't anything like what happened. Sergev, what planet are you reading this from? The subreddit has no follow-up consequences for what happens in Roll20. They are not connected by anything but name. They aren't even a service they are offering, it's a place for discussion and what happens there has none, zero consequence for what happens on the roll20 side of things. If this happened on roll20, I'd agree that it's a ****ty practice, but it only happened on the subreddit.

The only reason there's even an issue is because the Roll20 has people working on moderating the reddit forum, they made a mistake, they were going to correct his mistake, but he acted like he was entitled about it, so the ban stayed. He then decided to cut ties with roll20 because he didn't get his way of getting an apology, which he didn't deserve to begin with.

It's entitled, it's childish and it's not something companies have to answer to, IMO.