D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

[Requilac]

Welcome to the chat thread for the Base Class Competitions for D&D 5e. If you wish to say anything about the competition which is neither a submission nor a vote, then it belongs here. You do not need to be a contestant to post here. You are allowed to critique a competitor’s work and offer suggestions on how to improve their homebrew through this thread, but it is preferred if you do so through that class’ specific thread (if applicable). I will also be holding discussions over what the next competition’s theme should be in here. Let us begin.

Submissions thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Expectations
Voting thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Voting-Thread

Former Competitions
1st contest: Who Needs Swords or Sorcery?, won by WarrentheHero with the Inventor

2nd contest: Expect a low Margin of Terror, Won by Mourne with the Sleepwalker

3rd Contest: The Elements, and not the Periodic Ones (Probably?), won By Pygmybatrider with The Shaman

[pygmybatrider]

Woohoo! Onwards and upwards to the next big thing.

I am admittedly not immediately struck by inspiration here - but there are the beginnings of a Wisdom or Intelligence-based melee class, probably with a tribal theme, that gets a lot of action economy out of reactions due to enhanced perception/reaction time.

Interested to see where others take this!

[Requilac]

Woohoo! Onwards and upwards to the next big thing.

I am admittedly not immediately struck by inspiration here - but there are the beginnings of a Wisdom or Intelligence-based melee class, probably with a tribal theme, that gets a lot of action economy out of reactions due to enhanced perception/reaction time.

Interested to see where others take this!

I was actually planning on making a Constitution based necromancer type caster based around the manipulation the life energies. This idea suddenly occurred to me when I started making my own campaign setting and I discovered that three of the four planes all had several classes based around them but the fourth one, The Lightless Vaults of Zihnn (A plane of existence directly based on Zin, a region of the Dreamlands described in Lovecraft's The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, think Underdark meets Shadowfell), didn't have any class associated with it. I suppose nercomancy wizards and undying warlocks could sort of work, but those aren't full classes. This "Deathwalker of Zihnn" would be a little more broad than simply reanimation of the dead and necromancy spells though, they would also have a focus on spreading disease and poison, fear based spells, animalistic savagery and even healing (hey, healing is still a way of manipulating life energies ain't it?). I promise I will explain more about that precise plane of existence in the description of the class.

My main concern is that it may not be sufficiently out of the ordinary to support the theme. The concept is hardly unusual, just the fact that it uses Constitution as a casting stat is slightly out of the ordinary. What do you all think about it?

[Paleomancer]

An interesting contest! Trying to brainstorm some ideas. I just wanted to clarify a few things:

• You mention non-bipedal beasts as classes. Would these essentially be 5e equivalents to 3e monster classes? I brainstormed a goofy class that allows a person to become (or be a member of a species that is) a centaur-like thing, mixing their species with some animal (as a life path). Would that be sufficiently out of the ordinary? Or playing as evil unicorns (a blatant oxymoron, all unicorns are evil... especially when they're not).
• As for nontypical classes, would a profession like Programmer, Attorney, or Tourist be sufficiently unusual? Not necessarily these, but the general idea.
• I admit, I want to make an Intelligence-based class, but aside from the usual manipulate reality path, I'm at a loss. Maybe a charisma-class that uses sheer arrogance to resist reality? ...Paladins?

I was actually planning on making a Constitution based necromancer type caster based around the manipulation the life energies. This idea suddenly occurred to me when I started making my own campaign setting and I discovered that three of the four planes all had several classes based around them but the fourth one, The Lightless Vaults of Zihnn (A plane of existence directly based on Zin, a region of the Dreamlands described in Lovecraft's The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, think Underdark meets Shadowfell), didn't have any class associated with it. I suppose nercomancy wizards and undying warlocks could sort of work, but those aren't full classes. This "Deathwalker of Zihnn" would be a little more broad than simply reanimation of the dead and necromancy spells though, they would also have a focus on spreading disease and poison, fear based spells, animalistic savagery and even healing (hey, healing is still a way of manipulating life energies ain't it?). I promise I will explain more about that precise plane of existence in the description of the class.

My main concern is that it may not be sufficiently out of the ordinary to support the theme. The concept is hardly unusual, just the fact that it uses Constitution as a casting stat is slightly out of the ordinary. What do you all think about it?

It's an interesting idea... I especially like returning magical healing to Necromancy where it belongs. You might be right about Constitution being only slightly significant, but maybe go into why you'd use it, since Constitution is normally not associated with the undead. Maybe play on high constitution as key to Fortitude, and have the character be a festering pit of disease, poison, random vermin, and undead souls? All of which fail to control you precisely because you have adamantine fortitude? I am (mostly) joking, but playing on someone whose body resists any attempt by a parasitic force, living or dead, to take control or exploit it, might be a way to go.

Thanks again! Looking forward to see what people come up with in the contest, even if I don't get mine done.

[Requilac]

An interesting contest! Trying to brainstorm some ideas. I just wanted to clarify a few things:

• You mention non-bipedal beasts as classes. Would these essentially be 5e equivalents to 3e monster classes? I brainstormed a goofy class that allows a person to become (or be a member of a species that is) a centaur-like thing, mixing their species with some animal (as a life path). Would that be sufficiently out of the ordinary? Or playing as evil unicorns (a blatant oxymoron, all unicorns are evil... especially when they're not).
• As for nontypical classes, would a profession like Programmer, Attorney, or Tourist be sufficiently unusual? Not necessarily these, but the general idea.
• I admit, I want to make an Intelligence-based class, but aside from the usual manipulate reality path, I'm at a loss. Maybe a charisma-class that uses sheer arrogance to resist reality? ...Paladins?

1) I don't see anything wrong with something like 3.5e's monster classes. Evil unicorn seems like it could fit the theme quite well.
2) I would certainly say that a class which is simply a representation of a common contemporary career would fit the competition quite well.

It's an interesting idea... I especially like returning magical healing to Necromancy where it belongs. You might be right about Constitution being only slightly significant, but maybe go into why you'd use it, since Constitution is normally not associated with the undead. Maybe play on high constitution as key to Fortitude, and have the character be a festering pit of disease, poison, random vermin, and undead souls? All of which fail to control you precisely because you have adamantine fortitude? I am (mostly) joking, but playing on someone whose body resists any attempt by a parasitic force, living or dead, to take control or exploit it, might be a way to go.

Thanks again! Looking forward to see what people come up with in the contest, even if I don't get mine done.

I was thinking more along the lines of how Constitution is a measure of "the will to live", which suggests that there is some aspect of personality involved in it. To me, it seems interesting to think about a spellcaster who would be so exposed to necromantic magic that they could basically use their force of will and determination to actually cast their spells. Sort of similar to the sorcerer and paladin, but it would be much more about grimm resolution than actual force of personality. A caster who literally siphons power from the act of survival in desperation.

[Paleomancer]

I was thinking more along the lines of how Constitution is a measure of "the will to live", which suggests that there is some aspect of personality involved in it. To me, it seems interesting to think about a spellcaster who would be so exposed to necromantic magic that they could basically use their force of will and determination to actually cast their spells. Sort of similar to the sorcerer and paladin, but it would be much more about grimm resolution than actual force of personality. A caster who literally siphons power from the act of survival in desperation.

Hmm... to tie the class overview better with Constitution (versus the usual Wisdom/Charisma), would it be that either you have a profound connection to the wellspring of life itself, or that you are imbued with necrotic power and your very lifeforce is sufficient to contain it? Regardless, it's a cool concept. It would explain how a living creature could channel the might of necrotic energy itself, since death itself struggles to sap your inner flame of life. That might also explain how you can control undead, as you can feed them lifeforce from your own reserve and remain unharmed.

[BlueHairedKat]

Why do I get the feeling that this is going to get ridiculous?

Oh, right, the evil unicorns.

I have ideas for an intelligence-based fighter, a biotinker who augments their own body with mad science. It would do some unconventional mechanical things that would fit the theme, but 'mad scientist' is maybe a bit conventional. Or something vaguely superheroic; again mechanically unusual (but without the 'opposite stats' thing, don't know how much of an issue that is) and thematically unexpected. Fun things to build, and somewhat in-theme, but I wonder if they're in-theme enough...

[MoleMage]

Might make a fighting class with Charisma as their key stat based on the hero's journey and the monomyth (destined hero with no particular martial skill). Thoughts?

[pygmybatrider]

My first stab at an entry is up in the entry thread. It's all over the place at the moment, but all the features have names now, and there's enough there that I'm hoping it will come together by the end of the competition. I found this one a lot more difficult than the last - no direct inspiration for abilities, no clear picture in my head from the start, and having to find features for every single level as there is no spellcasting.

Might make a fighting class with Charisma as their key stat based on the hero's journey and the monomyth (destined hero with no particular martial skill). Thoughts?

I love this idea - I did a lot of work on the monomyth throughout my uni years. I read the entire Belgariad probably every other year, and Garion is probably exactly the sort of character that would fit a build like that.

Why do I get the feeling that this is going to get ridiculous?

Oh, right, the evil unicorns.

I have ideas for an intelligence-based fighter, a biotinker who augments their own body with mad science. It would do some unconventional mechanical things that would fit the theme, but 'mad scientist' is maybe a bit conventional. Or something vaguely superheroic; again mechanically unusual (but without the 'opposite stats' thing, don't know how much of an issue that is) and thematically unexpected. Fun things to build, and somewhat in-theme, but I wonder if they're in-theme enough...

Yeah, I've had a few headaches with the theme too. It's different, but is it different enough? For all the thought that goes into making something with the right amount of juxtaposition, you still need to build a class that works. I for one like the idea of a biotinker...somebody who could end up looking like Winter Soldier, a 40k haemonculus or Mega Man depending on where you take it. Plus more int-based classes is always good!

@Requilac - I have always loved the idea of casting from hitpoints, but have never seen it done well. I'd definitely be interested to see your take on it, and have no qualms about it fitting the theme! :)

Lots of good ideas floating around in this thread!

[MoleMage]

I love this idea - I did a lot of work on the monomyth throughout my uni years. I read the entire Belgariad probably every other year, and Garion is probably exactly the sort of character that would fit a build like that.

Well I can't say I did a lot of work on the monomyth. It came up in one class which is enough for me to remember that it exists. So don't get your hopes too high; I'm using the Wikipedia page to put together the class (and I'm not sure I'll have enough ideas to fill everything out yet).

I've put up the first few levels, and need to sort out the chassis. So far I've only touched on two of the stages of the hero's journey (Answering the Call at 2nd level, while Death and Resurrection aren't written but are named with Beyond the Pale and Returned Hero at level 11), but I'm not sure how much I can put into a class without limiting the class's ability to exist in an outside narrative.

[Morphic tide]

Let's see... Ideas conductive to screwing with expectations... Some synonym for "flanker" being used for a highly mobile two-handed character that leaps to enemies to land immensely stronger than normal blows comes to mind, possibly with a further layer of misdirection by having a parrying-focused subclass carry Strength to AC, as they do so by literally forcing blows aside instead of redirecting force. Another thought would be a class built on playing with pre-existing lore and mechanical outcomes instead of general expectations, essentially D&D community in-joke subversions, such as a Pouncer that's actually built on single fairly stationary strikes and rapid repositioning instead of charges.

[Vogie]

The conceit of the deadeye was an intelligence-based ranger- or fighter-esque marksman character who uses firearms. Unlike all other D&D ranged weapons, firearms only require the intelligence (and the appropriate appendages) to use - you don't have to be particularly strong or dexterous, but rather calculating and precise. And there were three subclasses that immediately jumped to mind:

• The Calm & Collected Sniper
• The Walking Armory
• The emotionless Tetragrammaton Cleric, from the movie Equilibrium.

I sampled a bit from the MFOV's Firearms Redux rules, as well as looking at various artificer and gunslinger builds.

The Accuracy mechanic I thought up in THIS other thread about replacing the extra attack feature with a single large attack. I think it's a bit clunky, but the heart is there. Mechanically the same as "extra attacks" in a rolling-dice-sense but only a single bullet leaves the gun, and the "additional hits" are effectively refluffed as that bullet doing more damage.

I do need to add some more polish, and prices on ammunition-crafting. PEACH here if you have some ideas.

[Requilac]

Hmm... to tie the class overview better with Constitution (versus the usual Wisdom/Charisma), would it be that either you have a profound connection to the wellspring of life itself, or that you are imbued with necrotic power and your very lifeforce is sufficient to contain it? Regardless, it's a cool concept. It would explain how a living creature could channel the might of necrotic energy itself, since death itself struggles to sap your inner flame of life. That might also explain how you can control undead, as you can feed them lifeforce from your own reserve and remain unharmed.

That is definitely a very interesting idea. It's not quite what I was thinking, but there is definitely some process to it. It reminds me a lot of blood magic, which I was never very fond off, but I don't necessarily need to use those same mechanics. I have also toyed with the idea of the necromancer gaining a pool of hit points from hitting enemies with necrotic damage that can be used to heal the necromancer or its allies, which seems to be pretty related to this.

I have ideas for an intelligence-based fighter, a biotinker who augments their own body with mad science. It would do some unconventional mechanical things that would fit the theme, but 'mad scientist' is maybe a bit conventional. Or something vaguely superheroic; again mechanically unusual (but without the 'opposite stats' thing, don't know how much of an issue that is) and thematically unexpected. Fun things to build, and somewhat in-theme, but I wonder if they're in-theme enough...

I would say that all of these concepts sounds pretty well within the boundaries of the theme. If you can justify it, it is probably acceptable.

@Requilac - I have always loved the idea of casting from hitpoints, but have never seen it done well. I'd definitely be interested to see your take on it, and have no qualms about it fitting the theme! :)

I wasn't thinking so much as casting from hitpoints so much as casting using Constitution as the ability score. I was never fond off the concept of draining hit points to empower spells/features, but I may add it in as it is thematically appropriate for this class. Don't keep your hopes up too high on that though.

[pygmybatrider]

Just had a quick read through of your Hero class, MoleMage!

I am already in love with it. I love the Warlocky patron/pact split at 1st and 3rd levels - I am hoping that later features buff these relics up as you level. Love the heroics dice.

Mighty and Cunning Hero are currently switched for their features. Heroic Strike - Cha to damage dice at level 11 to keep pace with Improved Divine Smite and Fighter's 3rd attack?

Backup Plan and Mystic Attunement sound sweet and thematic.

I am excited to see where you take this!

I have reshuffled a few things with the mesmer, and am a bit happier overall with how the class feels and flows - I think I have spent a bit of time wrapping my head around what they are thematically and what they should be able to do. Making Psych Out a mini-rage I think worked wonders for that. I might have to take Extra Attack off the Harlequin now though.

I am taking a look at the Deadeye now... :)

Spoiler: Vogie's Deadeye

Show

Base features all seem okay to me - firearms!

This One is Mine: love the Full Metal Jacket reference. Am I right in thinking that to hit you are only rolling d20 + prof, and then damage is 1d10 + int? I don't think you need the part in here about the Silencer reducing the boom as that is spelled out later on.

Called Shots: maneuvers are a big deal for battlemasters, and the defining feature of their subclass - your Deadeye gets this as a base feature. Could be fine or over the top depending how strong the subclass features are. There's also nothing in here about only being able to use these with firearms - is that intentional?

Fighting Style: accuracy 'or' attack rolls - is this intended to keep a longbow or crossbow using Deadeye viable? Depleted seems too finicky with resistances etc, I would keep it as a straight +2 damage, as opposed to Archery's +2 to hit. Impactful is fine and I like Penetrating (no pun intended) - you would feel like a boss when it came up, and it would add an interesting tactical element to battlefield positioning.

Marskman Styles: I'll come back to these at the end.

Increased Accuracy: interesting and thematic way to reflavour Extra Attack. Now it seems like you add your Int mod to hit - and I went back to check and it does seem that way. Maybe spell it out in the first feature for slow people like me - "when using your firearm you roll a ranged weapon attack, using your proficiency modifier + your Intelligence modifier."

Chain of Command: I like this feature. Good stuff. Could probably be reworded to something like "when you do not move on your turn, you can cast Command as bonus action (rather than a free one - does this class have lot of competing uses for bonus actions? doesn't seem so so far).

Ghillie Suit: I also like this feature. Double good stuff.

Silencer: Continuing the trend of cool features.

Steady Hands: the Ranger's capstone, at level 18, where it probably belonged in the first place.

Vorpal Headshot: Is this the level 20 feature? I assume so, but it doesn't say so in the description.

Elite Sniper: gains some of the sharpshooter benefits for free. I assume most Deadeyes would grab that feat at some point so it might be a bit redundant. Scaling halfish-sneak attack die - I am not sure you need this, given you also get scaling maneuvers. I haven't read those yet, so it might be fine.

Defensive Tactics: Smash Face is one of the coolest names for an ability I've ever seen and works fine. I would make the damage automatic and the save just for the disadvantage. I think Duck & Cover should probably be 'or' rather than 'and'. Steel Will is cool.

Scope: ridiculous range, living up to the name! I like that you can lay prone and snipe away, very thematic.

Glancing Shot: strong fluffy feature. I am a little nervous about power levels if those maneuvers are even halfway decent as an Elite Sniper Deadeye already has quite a lot going for it.

Walking Arsenal: feels like the 'champion' of the Deadeye. Features seem fine to me.

Unusual Arsenal: Dragonfire Round is a fire-type Lightning Bolt. Is there a level restriction or amount per rest limit on this? I don't have the Arcane Archer shots on me to compare, but overall this subclass seems weaker than the Elite Sniper. I still haven't checked the maneuvers though - those increased die sizes might make a big difference.

Gun Kata: guns akimbo! Nice. Six shots each is probably going to be a whole combat until you get 3rd extra attack.

Quantity over Quality: I don't really understand the difference between this and Improved Accuracy. It's also odd to give this archetype an extra feature at level 5. Could you just give the class Extra Attack at 5 and simplify the accuracy mechanic, or make the level 5 feature give players the option of taking Extra Attack or Improved Accuracy?

Quick Hands: steals a lot from the Dual Wielder feat. This might be personal preference but I tend to like keeping feat abilities in feats.

Point Blank Shot: this is a cool feature, and fluffy, but again this can be achieved with Crossbow Expert. I'd probably give this feature to them at level 3 so that anyone wanting to follow this archetype doesn't blow the feat just to get from 1-7 using the benefit.

Death Blossom: very cool. Nice capstone feature for this archetype.

Called Shots: are mostly straight from BM and so pretty strong overall, and really I'm not sure the Deadeye needs them. If you gave them a different feature at 2, say a X-per-rest advantage, or use a contested Int check to gain advantage, I don't think either Sniper or Gun Kata would miss it. Obviously it screws with the Walking Arsenal, but I think more could be done there to turn it into a demolitions-type archetype.

Obviously these are just my thoughts on the fly, I haven't really had time to sit back and digest them, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. Good stuff overall, I like the idea, the thematics, and the clear distinction between subclasses, I am just worried that the base class takes the best parts of the best fighter archetype and then the subclasses whack on some great bonuses too.

[MoleMage]

Just had a quick read through of your Hero class, MoleMage!

I am already in love with it. I love the Warlocky patron/pact split at 1st and 3rd levels - I am hoping that later features buff these relics up as you level. Love the heroics dice.

Mighty and Cunning Hero are currently switched for their features. Heroic Strike - Cha to damage dice at level 11 to keep pace with Improved Divine Smite and Fighter's 3rd attack?

Backup Plan and Mystic Attunement sound sweet and thematic.

I am excited to see where you take this!

I built it on a strange mix of Bard, Warlock, and Cleric (Heroics is Channel Divinity mixed with Bardic Inspiration, and the chassis is Warlock-like minus spellcasting).

Relics do indeed improve later on! The 13th level feature is now written for Weapon, Garb, and Focus (trying to figure out what sort of upgrade to give to Trinket).

Fixed the Mighty and Cunning Hero title blocks (I was experimenting with gmbinder variables and got the order wrong). Did some changes to the layout on Mighty: it now gets Feats of Strength at level 1 (which improves at level 6 like the other 1st-level Heroics features), and Heroic Strike was moved to level 6 (where subclasses will get their combat upgrade). The adding Charisma was moved to level 14 (when subclass-granted Heroics options all improve), an additionally allows rerolling of 1s and 2s a la great weapon fighting style.

Little worried about Backup Plan being just better than Feats of Strength, but then Medium Armor + Shields is probably better than Thieves' Tools so I'm gonna leave it for now.

Glad you like the early draft, that bodes well for the class once I get some revisions in!

[Vogie]

Called Shots: maneuvers are a big deal for battlemasters, and the defining feature of their subclass - your Deadeye gets this as a base feature. Could be fine or over the top depending how strong the subclass features are. There's also nothing in here about only being able to use these with firearms - is that intentional?

The Subtype is a nod to the Spell-Less Ranger, which is just a ranger with the spellcasting replaced by the Battlemaster Maneuvers. The base Deadeye has a small amount of maneuvers and superiority die, while the Walking Arsenal has the scaling that you see as part of the battlemaster subclass. I forgot to differentiate that the superiority die are LongRest Refreshed on Base, but Short Rest Refreshed on the Walking Arsenal.

I do need to write them all out instead of referencing the corresponding one, because they'll interact with the value of the superiority die rolled.

Fighting Style: accuracy 'or' attack rolls - is this intended to keep a longbow or crossbow using Deadeye viable? Depleted seems too finicky with resistances etc, I would keep it as a straight +2 damage, as opposed to Archery's +2 to hit. Impactful is fine and I like Penetrating (no pun intended) - you would feel like a boss when it came up, and it would add an interesting tactical element to battlefield positioning.

Increased Accuracy: interesting and thematic way to reflavour Extra Attack. Now it seems like you add your Int mod to hit - and I went back to check and it does seem that way. Maybe spell it out in the first feature for slow people like me - "when using your firearm you roll a ranged weapon attack, using your proficiency modifier + your Intelligence modifier."

I'll update Depleted to make more sense.
I try to avoid the words "ranged weapon attack" as it is a game-defined term that uses Dexterity. You don't use Dexterity until 18.
I indicate "accuracy or attack rolls" in the base class because 2 of the archetypes use accuracy rolls, while Gun Kata uses attack rolls like a normal D&D.

Chain of Command: I like this feature. Good stuff. Could probably be reworded to something like "when you do not move on your turn, you can cast Command as bonus action (rather than a free one - does this class have lot of competing uses for bonus actions? doesn't seem so so far).."

That is supposed to be as an action. Whoops. Fixed. Also changed the name to increase piggybacking.

Vorpal Headshot: Is this the level 20 feature? I assume so, but it doesn't say so in the description.

Fixed

Elite Sniper: gains some of the sharpshooter benefits for free. I assume most Deadeyes would grab that feat at some point so it might be a bit redundant. Scaling halfish-sneak attack die - I am not sure you need this, given you also get scaling maneuvers. I haven't read those yet, so it might be fine.

You don't get many Superiority die in this archetype, and the die don't scale. Only Walking Arsenal has the scaling die.

Walking Arsenal: feels like the 'champion' of the Deadeye. Features seem fine to me.

Unusual Arsenal: Dragonfire Round is a fire-type Lightning Bolt. Is there a level restriction or amount per rest limit on this? I don't have the Arcane Archer shots on me to compare, but overall this subclass seems weaker than the Elite Sniper. I still haven't checked the maneuvers though - those increased die sizes might make a big difference.

It's more of the utility version, rather than giant damage numbers on a single target like Elite Sniper. I'll get the Called shots & Unusual Arsenal lists updated this weekend.

Quantity over Quality: I don't really understand the difference between this and Improved Accuracy. It's also odd to give this archetype an extra feature at level 5. Could you just give the class Extra Attack at 5 and simplify the accuracy mechanic, or make the level 5 feature give players the option of taking Extra Attack or Improved Accuracy?

The point of the class is the accuracy mechanic, which is all about one big shot. However, this subclass is all about Dual Wielding, summoning those cinematic handgun firefights, which means pulling that trigger a whole lot. It's also the class where one might have a sword, dagger, (or whatever) in one hand and a firearm in the other, which doesn't work with the accuracy mechanic. The idea was you'd still have the accuracy mechanic while wielding your rifle, so I reworded it.

Quick Hands: steals a lot from the Dual Wielder feat. This might be personal preference but I tend to like keeping feat abilities in feats.

This class is basically "If Sharpshooter was a base class". And the Dual Wielder feat is really weak.
I did change the middle ability to more interesting than +1 AC, and the feature has now been renamed "Sly Flourish", as a nod to 4e & the Drunks & Dragons podcast.

Point Blank Shot: this is a cool feature, and fluffy, but again this can be achieved with Crossbow Expert. I'd probably give this feature to them at level 3 so that anyone wanting to follow this archetype doesn't blow the feat just to get from 1-7 using the benefit.

You're right, I need more here. I'll add a "you can't have disadvantage" clause, and probably make a Matrix reference. Having "Shot" in the feature name is confusing with the called shots mechanic.


THANKS!

[Crim the Cold]

I hope I have the time to flesh this out and finish it. Last time I tried to participate I wound up getting a new job and my spare time dried up for a while. I had an idea that I have had noodling around in my head for a while now and I think it fits. Some of the abilities are borrowed from other fantasy works but good ideas deserve to be spread outside their origins. Here is the very rough draft. I would like to know if ya'll think it fits the theme and would be worth taking the time to finish.

Blade mage (name wip)
Strength based spellcasting
High Risk high reward high action economy
Specializes in using slashing weapons
Becomes slashing damage resistant and eventually inmune. Eventually becomes resistant to piercing damage.
Low hp d6 hit die
Abilities that act as spells and consume spell slots just like spells would.
Can store slashing weapons in an extra dimensional space after bonding with them (10 minute ritual) and dismiss or summon them to hand at will. Uses bonus action.
Can make temporary and permanent enchantments to weapons. Can eventually stack enchantments both temporary and permanent on a weapon. Temp enchantments can be set on anyone's weapon. Permanent enchantment only on bonded weapons. Can utilize blacksmithing proficiency along with magic to improve even rusty pr damaged weapons to masterwork quality. Eventually can permanently transmute material a weapon is made of to improve it as well.

Sub classes, swords, axes, polarms, armor.
Sword specializes in disrupting offense.
Axes specializes in disrupting defenses.
Polarms specializes in pure offense.
Armor specialized in defense.
Proficient in blacksmithing, arcana, athletics.

I'm thinking the capstone(equivalent to a 9th level spell) will be to summon your entire arsenal (limit 20 weapons per target) to attack every enemy in a large area.

Please let me know if ya'll think I've got the bones of a good class here and if you think it is thematically appropriate.

Edit: I will put the completed, detailed, and fleshed out class in the actual contest thread..

[MoleMage]

I just realized that I forgot to update the link to the new GMBinder version control when I made changes to the Hero last week. Last weeks changes and today's changes should have all pushed through at once now. The changelog in my post has a pretty good record of what I did. Just need to figure out the rest of Mystic Hero and write the fluff of the class!

[Vogie]

Checking out some of the other classes:

For the Hero:

• Hero's Boon - I assume it available at level 5, but it doesn't say.
• Divine Blessing is kinda broken. Just a flat ignorance of resistance & immunity on weapon attacks once you reach level 11?
• An idea for the Cross the Threshold/Heroic Sacrifice/Returned Hero combo for the level 10 ability: How about keep Cross the Threshold, then have a different 10th level ability for each subclass, that is only unlocked once you pass on.

For the Mesmer:

• Why is the Unarmored Defense feature named "Inner Fire"? There's nothing else fire-related in the class.
• Lightning Reflexes seems odd that you're giving the player a bunch of reactions, but at no cost. They're still getting normal features, and also all these extra reactions, but only used in minute ways.
• Harlequin seems really boilerplate... Possibly because so many of its features are eaten up by Extra attack & Evasion. Could one of those be added to the base class? Or possibly have them combined so you can get a more Harlequin-y feature in there before 17?

I do need to write them all out instead of referencing the corresponding one, because they'll interact with the value of the superiority die rolled.

This has been done!

[MoleMage]

Checking out some of the other classes:

For the Hero:

• Hero's Boon - I assume it available at level 5, but it doesn't say.
• Divine Blessing is kinda broken. Just a flat ignorance of resistance & immunity on weapon attacks once you reach level 11?
• An idea for the Cross the Threshold/Heroic Sacrifice/Returned Hero combo for the level 10 ability: How about keep Cross the Threshold, then have a different 10th level ability for each subclass, that is only unlocked once you pass on.

Hero's Boon unlocks at 6th level (one level after Font of Inspiration yes, but Heroes have extra attack at 5th level already which was making it fairly weighty. This should be updated in the sheet now.

Divine Blessing was based on another mechanic I had a while back for Heroic damage which basically is treated as the best possible damage type for resistance and immunity. If I limited it to the active portion do you think it would be strong enough for a tier upgrade? What if instead of ignoring resistance and immunity it made any simple weapon or Relic Weapon a +1 weapon as its passive effect instead?

The idea for making Returned Hero/Sacrifice a subclass specific one is a good one. I'll see if I can move one of the subclass features around so I can put an extra one in at 10. I'll probably leave the free ressurections on the base class and give an additional bonus per subclass along with an option for Heroics.

Thanks for the feedback! I will return the favor sometime this week (hopefully tomorrow).

[Requilac]

Okay, I just started to get to work on the death walker/emissary of Zihnn class I was talking about. I have yet to make flavor descriptions, but I have already completed all the proficiencies, spell list and am working on the class features. It is a full casting class, so it will not have many ground breaking features, but I will try to make them as thematic as possible. If you would like to make any commentaries on the mechanics, please feel free to do so.

[Vogie]

Divine Blessing was based on another mechanic I had a while back for Heroic damage which basically is treated as the best possible damage type for resistance and immunity. If I limited it to the active portion do you think it would be strong enough for a tier upgrade? What if instead of ignoring resistance and immunity it made any simple weapon or Relic Weapon a +1 weapon as its passive effect instead?

I wouldn't want to nerf it that much. I could see a:

• Once/rest feature that removes both for a small period of time
• Multiple times/rest that removes resistance, and reduces immunity to resistance for a small period of time
• Always-on feature that allows the player to change their damage to less-resisted types, such as radiant or force
• Always-on feature that maximizes damage dealt to targets with resistance

[pygmybatrider]

Thanks for the feedback, Vogie!

Inner Fire was a placeholder name for an earlier mechanic that got dumped in favour of Unarmored Defense - that's been fixed up now. Harlequin has also been made more harlequin-y as that was a fair critique. No more Extra Attack for them either.

The extra reactions were part of the design process for the class. Thematically it made sense to me that an Intelligence based fighter is going to be working on mental acuity and reflex speed. Mechanically, I thought it (along with Psych Out) would give the class a clear 'feel' to help distinguish itself from the Rogue and Monk, and I tried to work the 'cost' into the base class by giving them no real features that improve damage - no GWM option, no Fighting Style, no Extra Attack. The Harlequin is frail defensively, and the Hypnotist trades offense for defense. Now, whether or not I succeeded at that goal is a different question! I have thought about only giving them simple weapons - leaving them with a d4 dagger for finesse options - or simple weapons and short swords. Do you think that would make it an easier pill to swallow?

Also after looking again at Hexblades, I am thinking I will drop the second use of Psych Out per rest in favour of something similar to their 14th level ability where they can use a bonus action to transfer their Hexblade's Curse onto a different target. As it stands, Psych Out is great for bosses, but a waste on anybody else. Currently, it progresses from 1 badass boss self-buff > 2 badass boss self-buffs. Following the Hexblade way it goes from one badass boss self-buff per rest > one badass combat self-buff per rest.

I'll have a read through the new/revised classes over the weekend and get back to you guys. :)

[MoleMage]

Mesmer Feedback:

• I like the extra reactions as part of the core progression, but with the limitation of only using a particular reaction once per round I'd like to see the subclasses unlock their reaction abilities sooner.
• Overall, this class is top-notch for defensive features, but they have no ability to do extra damage between level 1 and level 20 (other than ASIs) that doesn't require enemies to hit them. I would throw an ability near Countercut (plus or minus a level or two) that allows them to manipulate which ally an enemy targets, allowing the Mesmer to trigger Countercut at least somewhat reliably.
• I would let Harlequin use vicious mockery in the standard fashion in addition to the bonus action version. It's not a very strong cantrip but it would fit the theme well.
• Reactionary Charm is just better than Mocking Strike, as the stunned condition grants advantage on all attack rolls targeting a creature in addition to its obvious effects. The saving throw to avoid RC might pull it back into line, but it's still more attractive as a player (it's flashier and feels more impactful).

Deadeye Feedback

• The first one is just a formatting thing; it would be nice to have a table for this class so we can visualize the progression.
• I love that Intelligence is the modifier for gun shooting. You could probably remove the condition that negative Dexterity still penalizes your damage rolls; the language is not used anywhere else in 5e that I know of, plus Steady Hands already gives (admittedly very late game) incentive to prioritize Dex secondary or at least tertiary.
• Stand Down feels odd in the core class (it could be a subclass feature for a commando or Walking Arsenal).
• Elite Sniper's Smash Face doesn't specify how the saving throw DC is calculated. It seems like the intent is for it to be your Called Shot DC, so something like "against your Called Shot saving throw DC" would be sufficient.
• Walking Arsenal's Improved Called Shots feels pretty small for a tier upgrade. I'd give them extra uses of Superiority die also.
• Gun Kata doubles as the blade and gun swashbuckler, which is cool. As with the standard guns' Dexterity penalty note, you probably don't need to make the Intelligence penalty note here.
• Gun Kata's Quantity over Quality doesn't fit standard subclass progression. I would fold it into Sly Flourish.
• Dodge This seemed weak until I saw it also negated Dodge. Proceed.

EDIT: I found the language for applying an ability penalty but not an ability bonus in two weapon fighting. Gun Kata should keep the language, but I think the standard rifle doesn't need it as it already uses Intelligence for those rolls and doesn't need a penalty for a second ability.

Emissary Feedback (for features complete so far)

• Typo: Your first level hit points should be 8 + Con mod, not 10. Also, you left at least one cleric in the spellcasting section.
• Blood Magic should be formatted as a separate class feature, as it is sufficiently unique as to warrant it.
• Uncanny Constitution should be titled Unarmored Defense for multiclassing rules reasons (namely, you can't gain more than one Unarmored Defense).
• Ghostly should allow flying creatures to retain their original fly speed if better. Zombie should have a minimum speed.
• Defy the Dead is nice.
• Overall this is shaping up to deliver on the minionmancer Necro in a way that DnD 5e just doesn't do, so I'm really excited to see the rest of it.

[Requilac]

Emissary Feedback (for features complete so far)

• Typo: Your first level hit points should be 8 + Con mod, not 10. Also, you left at least one cleric in the spellcasting section.
• Blood Magic should be formatted as a separate class feature, as it is sufficiently unique as to warrant it.
• Uncanny Constitution should be titled Unarmored Defense for multiclassing rules reasons (namely, you can't gain more than one Unarmored Defense).
• Ghostly should allow flying creatures to retain their original fly speed if better. Zombie should have a minimum speed.
• Defy the Dead is nice.
• Overall this is shaping up to deliver on the minionmancer Necro in a way that DnD 5e just doesn't do, so I'm really excited to see the rest of it.

1) Thanks for catching me on those typos, first drafts are always vulnerable to them.
2) While blood magic is fairly unique, it is heavily intertwined with the spellcasting system and granted at 1st level. I could put it in as its own feature, but I do not see how it would improve it if I did so.
3) I forgot completely about the rules regarding unarmored defense, I will go rename the feature.
4) I don't see why the ghostly template would allow creatures to keep their flying speed. If they are ethereal than their wings are rendered useless and the flying is completely due to magic, not the creature's physical abilities.
5) Don't get too excited, the minionmancy is simply a backdrop to the true nature of the class. Just given its spell list, death walkers are much better at buffing and debuffing than using minions.

[MoleMage]

2) Mostly because this is a cool thing that only this class can do, and putting it on the table and giving it its own heading draws attention to that.
4) Many flying creatures have a terrible run speed, often as low as 5 ft (owls and bats for example). While narratively it makes sense that they aren't flying under physical power anymore, as a player I would have an expectation that the ghost version of a flying animal would still be decent at flying.
5) Buffs and debuffs are perfect minionmancer spell options. If the class feature to raise dead scales my hopes are only slightly lowered based on your response.

[pygmybatrider]

Mesmer Feedback:

[LIST][*]I like the extra reactions as part of the core progression, but with the limitation of only using a particular reaction once per round I'd like to see the subclasses unlock their reaction abilities sooner.[*]Overall, this class is top-notch for defensive features, but they have no ability to do extra damage between level 1 and level 20 (other than ASIs) that doesn't require enemies to hit them. I would throw an ability near Countercut (plus or minus a level or two) that allows them to manipulate which ally an enemy targets, allowing the Mesmer to trigger Countercut at least somewhat reliably.[*]I would let Harlequin use vicious mockery in the standard fashion in addition to the bonus action version. It's not a very strong cantrip but it would fit the theme well.[*]Reactionary Charm is just better than Mocking Strike, as the stunned condition grants advantage on all attack rolls targeting a creature in addition to its obvious effects. The saving throw to avoid RC might pull it back into line, but it's still more attractive as a player (it's flashier and feels more impactful).

Thankyou for the feedback mate, always welcome!

1 - good point on this. I tried to make their level 3 features key off Psych Out - but that is probably a strong enough feature on its own to stand for a while. I might have a think and reshuffle their features - get a new reaction at 3, get a boost to Psych Out at 6, fluff feature at 13, capstone at 17.
2 - Countercut doesn't care who the attacker targets - the mesmer will get a reaction attack as long as they are within 5 ft of the enemy making the attack. Maybe they could get a feature alongside Lightning Reflexes at 5 that lets them make an attack when an enemy enters their reach, ala PAM? It would essentially be their Extra Attack, as combat would usually look like: Enemy moves to mesmer, mesmer gets a reaction attack (and possibly Quick Steps away). At level 11, it becomes: Enemy moves to mesmer, mesmer gets a reaction attack. Enemy attacks, mesmer gets a reaction attack. Seems to follow fighter/paladin progression well.
3 - I have thought about giving this to Harlequins at level 3, and maybe give Hypnotists Word of Radiance or Guidance or something.
4 - yeah, I agree. Mocking Strike originally granted disadv. on the next attack roll, but I thought that overlapped with Vicious Mockery. The feature definitely needs some work to bring it back in line.

Also been thinking about themes for the next contest: I'd be interested in something like "Location, Location" - based on a particular place or environment, real or imagined. Picturing Crocodile Dundees or a Samurai or a Celtic spearwielding maniac-Hulk like Cuchulainn.

I know that the 'monster class' was included in the umbrella for this contest too, but if we don't get any of those this time around, I also think that's a great idea for a standalone contest.

[BlueHairedKat]

Mesmer Feedback

First of all, this looks like a really interesting class to play, so kudos on that.
- Lightning Reflexes is a tier upgrade that doesn't really do much. You can Light Step as well as make an opportunity attack, sure, but I'm not sure that can compete with Extra Attack. I'd really want to get them a polearm...
- Countercut, on the other hand, I really like. Nice way to make what is basically 'you get an extra attack' interesting and flavorful.
- I find it very weird that Unbreakable is an 18th level ability. Not that it's bad, per se, but for a class that's all about dominance over the mind I'd expect this much earlier.
- I love Taunting Jibe.
- Hypnotic Ward should say 'activate', not 'active'.
- As already mentioned, Reactionary Charm is much better-looking than Mocking Strike.



The biotinker is coming; hopefully I'll find enough time this weekend to get it to a postable state.

[Vogie]

Deadeye Feedback

• The first one is just a formatting thing; it would be nice to have a table for this class so we can visualize the progression.
• I love that Intelligence is the modifier for gun shooting. You could probably remove the condition that negative Dexterity still penalizes your damage rolls; the language is not used anywhere else in 5e that I know of, plus Steady Hands already gives (admittedly very late game) incentive to prioritize Dex secondary or at least tertiary.
• Stand Down feels odd in the core class (it could be a subclass feature for a commando or Walking Arsenal).
• Elite Sniper's Smash Face doesn't specify how the saving throw DC is calculated. It seems like the intent is for it to be your Called Shot DC, so something like "against your Called Shot saving throw DC" would be sufficient.
• Walking Arsenal's Improved Called Shots feels pretty small for a tier upgrade. I'd give them extra uses of Superiority die also.
• Gun Kata doubles as the blade and gun swashbuckler, which is cool. As with the standard guns' Dexterity penalty note, you probably don't need to make the Intelligence penalty note here.
• Gun Kata's Quantity over Quality doesn't fit standard subclass progression. I would fold it into Sly Flourish.
• Dodge This seemed weak until I saw it also negated Dodge. Proceed.

EDIT: I found the language for applying an ability penalty but not an ability bonus in two weapon fighting. Gun Kata should keep the language, but I think the standard rifle doesn't need it as it already uses Intelligence for those rolls and doesn't need a penalty for a second ability.

• Table: Added!
• The potential negative Dexterity modifiers is a nod towards recoil. If you're point-buy-ing, you may not want a 7 or 8 in that feature.
• Smash Face now has a DC!
• Improved the 11th level ability by adding a second fighting style. Changed the name to "Trick Shooter".
• The second portion of Gun-Fu, as you noted, is part of the Two Weapon Fighting standard, and that ribbon is just there as a clarification. It also is mechanically the same as the appropriate portion of Crossbow Expert, which would not work with this class, as firearms are not hand crossbows. However, if the first attack was with a melee weapon, you'd still be firing at disadvantage until you pick up Dodge This.
• Quantity over Quality wouldn't work well as anything other than a 5th level ability, and is too large to be folded into Sly flourish, so it's just an ability replacement similar to what was seen in previous editions. It'd be a substantive nerf to the subclass to not have either Increased Accuracy OR Extra Attack available until 7.

[BlueHairedKat]

Hero Feedback
- I completely get the name, but it still feels a bit... generic
- Nitpicks: Extra Attack should say 'starting at 5th level' or similar. Divine Blessing is two abilities written as one. Awakened Relic lists Trinket twice instead of Focus.
- I'm so torn on Cross the Threshold. On the one hand I love the thematics of it, the way it ties in to the hero's journey. On the other hand, the ability triggering it kind of comes out of nowhere, and feels a bit box-ticky to me.
- Trinket Relic seems pretty weak compared to the others, especially once it Awakens.
- Apotheosis seems really, really good. Maybe too good?
- Is Combat Ploy intended to trigger before the attack, so that the attack fails if you move out of range? Because that's obscene as an at-will ability.

Overall: I like this, it looks reasonably well-built and quite fun, but I have one huge problem with it: In a competition themed around the unexpected, you've made a class based on the archetypal hero's journey. That's maybe the most expected thing there is.

Deadeye Feedback
- Pedantry: Several Fighting Styles refer to an accuracy roll, which hasn't been defined yet. Traditionally the Marksman Styles entry would list the levels at which they grant features. All of the wording on Stand Down is just a little funky, and the DC is unclear.
- Proficiency to damage rolls is a bit weird to have as a default
- Increased Accuracy: I see no reason why these can't be attack rolls. Keep the feature as is mechanically, sure - I actually quite like the idea of a single more powerful shot - but you're breaking the attack-check-save trichotomy while also making sure that every ability ever designed for attack rolls doesn't work on rifles.
- Dragonfire Round does an obscene amount of damage.
- Piercing Round does an unspecified amount of damage.

Overall, a pretty nice Gunslinger class. Not 100% sold on 'does not meet expectations', but it works.

Emissary Feedback
- First impression: That's a lot of class features for a class with full spellcasting based on a very useful ability score.
- Nitpickery: Hit dice refer to the class as a death-walker, spellcasting as an emissary. I'd probably list Blood Magic as its own feature.

Has promise. Waiting eagerly.

Whitescourge Feedback
- Rebuke Unlife is very good for a low-level at-will, though it does only affect the undead. I'd tone the damage down and maybe give it cantrip scaling
- To cast a spell I have to expend healing resources and take damage? Ouch. Guess I won't be casting Cure Wounds any time soon...
- I would never use Flaring Strike; if I want to attack with Constitution, there are cantrips for that.
- Exalt is very unclear on what features come at what level

Overall: There's a solid class structure here, but I think you've failed to give several of your abilities, spellcasting especially, enough oomph to make up for the downsides, and it leaves the class rather underpowered.