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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Alright then, the Emissary of Zihnn class has been fully completed. Grammar has been fixed, there is a google doc for it and I added pictures to the Homebrewery document. Later today I will try to see if I can get around to reviewing other people's homebrew classes.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    The Biotinker's now complete up to level 20. I'm much less certain about balance at the higher levels, and some of the augmentations are fairly... out there. Feedback appreciated.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Okay Molemage, I would like to thank you for all the hard work you have done judging the Emissary. I feel as if it is my turn to repay your actions. Below I have written a detailed review on the Monomythic Hero class which I hope is helpful.

    The Monomythic Hero
    •I would recommend changing the title to something more descriptive then hero. That is just to general and not descriptive enough. Maybe something like “The Legend” or “The Monomythic” would be more suiting. Hero as is just doesn’t give me a good enough picture of what the class should work like. You can tell what the class would be like when you hear the word “Barbarian” or “Cleric”, but hero makes it ambiguous as to what he class is about.
    •I am sure you are aware of this, but there is no flavor description for your class yet.
    •Symbolic relic doesn’t seem nearly as powerful as it should be.
    •For Divine Quest I would recommend allowing them to use more than just Divination. Augury, Commune and Contact Other Plane would all make sense here too.
    •Cross the Threshold is admittedly interesting, but I feel like it is overpowered. If the hero knows that the situation looks like they are going to die, they could use this to virtually escape permemant death every time. Due to the guaranteed resurrection, I could easily see the Hero spamming this is an emergency button. Maybe you should put a limitation on how many times per lifetime it can be used? Or have some cost associated with the resurrection, as seen with raise dead?
    •Wait, so the damage from Fated Warrior ignores Resistance and Immunity? What is the explanation for how this works on largely incorporeal things, like air elementals?
    •For awakened relic the feature for Relic Focus is largely underwhelming when compared to the competition. At level 13 there would be very few occasions in which casting a 1st level spell would using a limited resource is just sad.
    •How is Link an example of a “mighty hero”? Have you ever seen how many puzzles are involved in Legend of Zelda Games? He would probably be a better example of a cunning hero.
    •For Beacon of courage there would be very few situations in which someone would want to waste their action ending the Frightened condition on someone. Maybe making it a bonus action should be better?
    •The Cunning Destiny and Mystic Destiny archetypes lack flavor descriptions.
    •The Cunning Destiny is significantly superior to all of the other archetypes, especially with Combat Ploy and the second part of Evasive Tactics.
    •Soul Burst does an incredibly low amount of damage, which even at level 13 does less damage than a Dragonborn at level 1. Maybe you should up it just a little bit more.

    After reading through the Hero I see some potential in it, but at its current form it is largely underpowered. It seems like you where hinging most of the class’ power off of the Heroics dice, but that is a bad idea because it is a limited resource that could go very quickly, especially at low levels. With its d6 hit die and lack of martial weapon proficiency, the Hero simply couldn’t hold up very long in extended combat even with Heroic’s dice and the subclass features.

    I think you need something to boost their power and give them a niche. The only class which doesn’t get martial weapon proficiency or spellcasting is the monk and rogue, both of which get a plethora of immensely powerful features to help them. The Hero just gets heroics dice and a couple of subclass features which usually aren’t that great, with the exception of the Cunning Archetype. I think if you are truly intent on having the Hero go without spell casting and martial weapons, then go the rogue route and give them features to help with exploration and social interaction. If they aren’t great in combat, the Hero can make up for it in other regards.

    There are many different exploration based features I can imagine being suitable for the hero of a monomyth. A bonus to certain checks based on who the Hero’s mentor was? An ability to quickly learn the habits or language of the natives wherever they go to reflect Crossing the First Threshold? Perhaps the Hero could, once per day, mark a specific challenge as one of their trials and gain a bonus to any check related to overcoming it? Something which protects the Hero against magical enchantments or being deceived or manipulated for when the “Woman as Temptress” scene rears its ugly head?
    An ability that prevents you from being frightened or otherwise unable to move closer to an enemy, so that that the Hero my stone with the father without fear? A feature that allows for rapid movement or escape from a dangerous situation for when the Magic Flight step comes up? Some sort of conjuring abilities to get those allies necessary for the Rescue from Without step? Perhaps an ability travel between Planes of Existence to represent being a Master of Two Worlds? Like I said, there is a lot you could do.
    Last edited by Requilac; 2018-11-11 at 07:54 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    Okay Molemage, I would like to thank you for all the hard work you have done judging the Emissary. I feel as if it is my turn to repay your actions. Below I have written a detailed review on the Monomythic Hero class which I hope is helpful.
    Thanks for the feedback! Some clarification and roadmap below.

    I guess I should finish the polish on the Hero, eventually, eh?

    • I appreciate it! I keep procrastinating on fixing the name and flavor text, but I plan to come up with ideas for both.
    • Symbolic Relic I can take a look at. Weapon felt like a decent mark (since it grants martial weapon access/magic weaponry), but some of the others I wasn't sure on.
    • I thought about putting other "get information" spells into Divine Quest, but I didn't want to make it too complicated, since the class has a lot going on and this was primarily a ribbon feature.
    • Cross the Threshold, as written, can be used exactly once (once you've used it you lose the feature and replace it with Returned Hero and Heroics: Sacrifice. I'll clarify the language.
    • Basically, your normal damage is as normal, and the extra 1d6 from Fated Warrior is damage of no type that ignores all resistance and immunity, because destiny says so. I'll add some flavor to clarify it.
    • Relic Focus can be used to gain Hex/Hunter's Mark, Shield of Faith, Faerie Fire, and a handful of other useful spells. I'll look at a pass to improve Focus, but Hex at the drop of a hat is pretty nice.
    • Link is a Mighty Hero because Mighty Heros have the best skill with swords and the features relating to courage. Really Link fits a little bit in all three categories (even Mystic in Ocarina and Link to the Past).
    • I feel like I had it as a bonus action at some point, and nerfed it. I will put it back at bonus.
    • Flavor for destinies also being procrastinated.
    • I'll drop Combat Ploy's secondary trigger to melee only. I feel comfortable with where Evasive Tactics is, because it's essentially a weaker version of Aura of Protection (Dex only, requires a Reaction) with a longer range. I'd rather buff Beacon of Courage and Soul Attunement.
    • Soul Burst is something I need to revisit. On the whole, it just isn't very satisfying as a feature. Consider it for now just a placeholder so I remember to have Heroics Feature at that level.



    Power on this was hard to judge. The Monk is similarly dependent on a limited resource, but I suppose the monk's resource is available more often and they have some stuff they can do in its absence. I may increase Heroics baseline to Class Level/Short Rest and put something else at level 6. Would that be a solid all-around boost for the yet-to-be-renamed Hero? Maybe the "bread-and-butter" archetype Heroics spenders should come with tacked-on passive boosts?

    I also have around 12 days left. I might try to throw together my Artisan class in place of the Hero. Probably not though. It's a busy month and updating Hero might be all the time I have.
    Last edited by MoleMage; 2018-11-12 at 01:16 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    @ Molemage, I have more comments regarding the Hero


    •can you explain what you mean by saying that this class is having “a lot going on?” Almost all of the features hinge off of Heroics Dice, which aren’t exactly a rocket science feature. I don’t think there is anything remiss about giving more spells to Divine Quest. It would take up an extra line at most, and probably not even that. You could just rephrase it as “You learn four spells; augury, commune, contact other plane, and divination. You may use this feature to cast one of those spells without expending a spell slot. You regain the use of this ability whenever you complete a long rest.”
    •Sorry about the misunderstanding over Cross the Threshold, it’s just that there isn’t a precedent in official rules for a feature going away like that so I failed to understand what the lasts sentence meant. It is probably best to make that message more clear.
    •The spells granted by the Awakened Relic for the Relic Focus are useful, but they are also received at 13th level. At level 13 most classes are pulling off 6th level spells, alongside a plethora of lower level spells. Of course there is some use to the level 13th feature for the Relic Focus, but at level 13 it should be something that grants more power. If it was at a lower level than that would be acceptable, but at T3 it will be a ribbon at best.
    •Oh no, don’t get me wrong, it’s not that Evasive Tactics is overpowered for a 9th level feature, it’s that it is too powerful in comparison to the other level 9 subclass features. Empowering the other subclasses to an equal level would solve my complaints entirely.

    Even if you allowed the Heroics dice to recharge at 1st level it wouldn’t be enough. The effects of the Heroics dice simply aren’t strong enough to carry the class as a whole without any passive, unlimited features. A d6 hit die and proficiency with simple weapons really lays the Hero on the chopping block as soon as it needs to be conservative with the the Hero dice. The Monk has many passive abilities to help it out when it must be careful with their ki usage, whereas the Hero has to expend all their Hero dice in rapid succession or get slaughtered with their d6 hit dice, average movement and pitiful damage output.

    What I am saying is that you either need to make it so that there are enough Hero dice so that you can use them as frequently as a wizard casts spells or you need to add in some potent passive features. As is, the class has extremely low survivability without a mobile, utilitarian or offensive factor to make up for it like the other classes do. I really think you should imagine to yourself what it would look like if a level 11 Mighty Hero where to go up against a single CR 5 gladiator, and then compare how it’s performance would be to a level 11 Champion Fighter vs that same gladiator. I can guarantee you that the fighter would get that fight done quicker without expending any resources whereas the Hero, even if it used its Hero dice as much as possible, would lose the fight entirely. I would do the math, but I sadly lack the free time.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    It has a lot going on in that it has a lot of special action options. Sure, almost all of them use Heroics Dice, but they still add complexity. I will add Commune to Divine Quest starting at level 11 (two levels after Clerics get it). Augury and Contact Other Plane I am leaving off as the former is outright weaker than Commune/Divination and the latter is non-divine in nature.

    Cross the Threshold was the big status-quo breaker more than anything. I'll make the wording more explicit in my next update push.



    Spoiler: Damage Estimates
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    Expected Damage dealt per round by Hero 11 (not using Heroic Strike): ~19 (includes the Gladiator parrying each round, assuming a Relic Weapon: Greatsword/Maul and max Charisma).
    Expected Damage dealt per round by Fighter 11 (not using Action Surge): ~24 (includes the Gladiator parrying each round, assuming a Greatsword and max Strength).

    Turns to kill Gladiator straight damage (CR 5 from MM): 6 for Hero, 5 for Fighter.

    Heroic Strike adds 5.5 damage per use to the Hero (as it, like smite, is used after the hit is known and never wasted). Assume the hero uses it once a round on average: Turns to kill Gladiator: 5.
    Action Surge doubles fighter damage one round (actually slightly more as the Gladiator can't parry, but not enough to knock off an extra turn), so 4 turns to kill gladiator.

    Gladiator expected damage per round to Hero 11 (with +2 Dex and Half Plate): 18.15
    Gladiator expected damage per round to Fighter 11 (with Full Plate): 16.5

    Turns to kill a Hero, assuming +2 Con (he had to invest in Dex while the fighter didn't): 4 (without spending Heroics Dice on Fortitude)
    Turns to kill a Fighter, assuming +3 Con: 6 (without using Second Wind)

    Each round that the Hero uses Heroic Fortitude the damage it takes drops to 12.65. Fortitude every round gives the hero 5 turns of living instead of 4.
    Second wind gives the fighter one extra turn of life, bringing it to 7.

    Envelope math suggests you are correct in your estimation. The fighter has a full round over Mighty Hero both on offense and defense against the CR 5 Gladiator, assuming both use their combat resources aggressively The Hero matches offensively and loses defensively if the fighter uses no resources and the Hero uses all Heroics dice. Buffs for the Hero will be incoming.


    My current plan is as follows: Increase the number of Heroics Dice to Level+Cha (up from half level + Cha), and make them short rest instead of long rest by default. Hero's Boon (level 6 feature that gave short rest Heroics Dice) now adds a "free" variation for core Heroics functions (Fortitude and all of the level 6 subclass ones). For example, Hero's Boon Fortitude will now give "free" temporary hit points on any turn where Heroic Fortitude is not used. This means that all of the passives are folded in as "improvements" to existing features.

    Also adding Easy Integration at 3 (ignore language barriers through wording that I am still settling) and Just That Lucky at 9 (find exactly the item you need 1/long rest so long as that item is not a specific item, magical item, or mundane item worth more in GP than twice your level) as extra social interaction.

    EDIT: Relic Trinket considered upgrade: Allow upcasting of selected spells by spending extra heroics dice. Alternately, no optional upcasting, but every time you cast it it's as a third level spell. Thoughts?
    Last edited by MoleMage; 2018-11-12 at 05:36 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    There is less than three days left until the competition is over everybody, if any last minute changes need to be made then do them now.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post

    My current plan is as follows: Increase the number of Heroics Dice to Level+Cha (up from half level + Cha), and make them short rest instead of long rest by default. Hero's Boon (level 6 feature that gave short rest Heroics Dice) now adds a "free" variation for core Heroics functions (Fortitude and all of the level 6 subclass ones). For example, Hero's Boon Fortitude will now give "free" temporary hit points on any turn where Heroic Fortitude is not used. This means that all of the passives are folded in as "improvements" to existing features.

    Also adding Easy Integration at 3 (ignore language barriers through wording that I am still settling) and Just That Lucky at 9 (find exactly the item you need 1/long rest so long as that item is not a specific item, magical item, or mundane item worth more in GP than twice your level) as extra social interaction.

    EDIT: Relic Trinket considered upgrade: Allow upcasting of selected spells by spending extra heroics dice. Alternately, no optional upcasting, but every time you cast it it's as a third level spell. Thoughts?
    Oh, I am sorry Molemage, I hadn't realized that you updated the Hero. You added it in as an edit to a post I already read, so it isn't until now that I came around to reading it.

    I think the changes you have made definetely gave the Hero a needed power boost. The additional Heroics dice and short rest recharge are probably the biggest change, the former of which covers many of my problems. Now the Hero can use the Heroics dice enough to rely on it as a core feature. The Hero is definitely utilizing some unorthodox features so it is difficult to imagine how balanced it would be in actual play, but I suppose that only play-testing shall prove that. It might turn out all right, but I wouldn't trust that outcome.

    I think that the Awakened Relic Trinket still seems like it isn't sufficiently powerful, but considering how many times that spell could be cast makes me reconsider. Regardless, I would add in more than one known spell, possibly up to charisma modifier maybe? This could just me being biased at this point, its hard to tell really.

    One last question though; why does the passive part of Heroic Fortitude always grant just 2 THP regardless of level? I am not saying that this is necessarily unbalanced, but most features in 5E will have quantities that are effected by an ability score modifier, proficiency bonus, or class level; very few are that static. Why did you choose the static number 2 for Heroic Fortitude instead of making it grow with levels or be based on a bonus?
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    [B]One last question though; why does the passive part of Heroic Fortitude always grant just 2 THP regardless of level? I am not saying that this is necessarily unbalanced, but most features in 5E will have quantities that are effected by an ability score modifier, proficiency bonus, or class level; very few are that static. Why did you choose the static number 2 for Heroic Fortitude instead of making it grow with levels or be based on a bonus?
    I originally had it scaling based on your dice size improvements, but took it out so that it wouldn't compete with the active portion. Then later I added the cumulative with active portion clause so I will put scaling back in tomorrow.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    I'll do a last-minute go over of each class and say any final comments I may have. In the meantime, I would appreciate if I got some final reviews on the Whitescourge, as it's pretty good, but I'm worried that it's not as good as it could be.

    Biotinker: I have a hard time getting over the fact that the only ability this class has is the enhancements. Every 5e class, even the Wizard, has class features outside of the core mechanic, but Biotinker doesn't have that. I suppose one could use that argument for the 'expectations' bit, but I have a hard time getting over the lack of variance.

    Emissary: The only qualm I have is how much its steeped in your world's lore, particularly the subclasses go overboard on this (making you slog through two paragraphs to see why the abilities make sense). Maybe reflavoring them so the names of the subclasses aren't the domains, rather, they're an adjective to describe them, i.e. 'the Toxic' or 'the Squamous'? It would make this class a lot easier to understand and use in settings that... aren't yours.

    Mentalist: Looks pretty much good. Flavor fits, class is streamlined, simple, and balanced, and everything more or less makes sense for a cunning psionic fighter. Strong contender for my vote

    Deadeye: Pretty solid. A bit complicated, but to be expected. Just falls a bit shy on not meeting expectation.

    Destined: I can't access GMbinder on this device, so sadly I can't give much feedback. From what I've heard, it seems you have a solid idea, varied and interesting mechanics, and Hero Dice to tie it all together. Just again, what really exceeds expectation? All D&D PCs are mighty heroes. This one just has its job in the name.

    I'm not good at mechanical review, just flavor and overall look, so that's what I got. Anyone got any qualms on the Whitescourge?
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Thanks for bumping this thread, SWDM. I'd almost forgotten about this little contest! Didn't realise it was almost over.

    Appreciate your comments on the mesmer - I do think your earlier critique about the subclasses feeling too distant/distinct from the base class was warranted, and I did intend to add a third that would feel more like your average dude with psychic powers and hopefully tie the others together - but didn't get around to it. I did update the capstone ability to give you the option of using your reaction to impose disadvantage on the target of your Psych Out's attack roll/ability check/saving throw. I ended up not giving them a 4th reaction as I think choosing which 3 of your 7 reactions you're going to use per round is enough book-keeping/decision making for a player, and I think at-will disadvantage is a pretty juicy ability, even if it's only one specific target per round @ level 20.

    I'll give your Whitescourge my best shot at reviewing, and if anyone else would like me to take another look at their class before the deadline, just let me know.

    Spoiler: Whitescourge
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    Still love the fluff at the start. Simple and evocative - gives you a clear picture of what to expect from the class.

    Does your Center give you benefits at level 1? Its position in the class table would suggest so, but it doesn't look like you actually gain any features from your Center until 3rd level. (I later saw that you must have changed around the levels you gain features - the text of the Center feature should be updated to reflect that :) )

    I still think Rebuke Unlife should scale at cantrip levels - eg 2d6 base, 3d6 at 5, 4d6 at 11, 5d6 at 17. I'm also not sure if this is important enough a feature to be in the class table - given that how often you use it will be entirely dependent on how many undead are in your campaign. If you want it to stay in the table, I can't help but feel there should be a way to use this feature against non-undead - I know it might be hard to work out the fluff, but I would like to see a line or two at the end saying something like: "You can also choose to release your stored hatred for the undead as a tangible wave of unrelenting force. As long as you have not used your Rebuke Unlife feature since your last long rest, you can use an action to cause all creatures you choose within 15 feet of you to make a Strength save against your Snippets of Power DC. On a fail, a creature takes 2d6 force damage and is knocked prone. On a success, a creature takes half as much damage and is not knocked prone. The damage increases as you gain levels in the class, according to the Whitescourge table. Once you use Rebuke Unlife in this way, you can't use your Rebuke Unlife feature again until you finish a long rest. "

    You then have a class feature that is usable throughout your career, and gives the Whitescourge some much needed power at lower levels. Primal Resilience will be great when it comes up, but won't come up often, and the cantrips from Snippets of Power will be roughly equal to just hitting things with a pair of daggers until 5th level.

    My issue with Spellcasting keying off Constitution is that since Constitution is already a secondary stat for everybody, you lower a spellcaster's needed attributes from 3 to 2. Every other caster needs their mental stat for spells, Con for HP, and Str or Dex for armour. Woundknitter and Exalt Whitescourges just need Con and Dex - Burning Blades also have the potential to stay with Dex using rapiers or that OP elven glaive, or take up Strength for heavy weapons. It's not a dealbreaker for everyone, as shown in this thread, but it does just feel out of place to me. Personally, after reading the fluff, either Strength or Charisma would fit better for me as a spellcasting stat. Charisma is boring but works for the same reason as a sorcerer using Cha - it's an innate, personal power that you're channeling. Strength keeps your casting stat out-of-the-box, and can use nearly all the same fluff as Con - resolve, physical might, perseverence etc. I still think it makes sense to cast from hit dice with Strength as a spellcasting mod too. Obviously it's ultimately up to you, but this is why I and others have stayed away from Con as a spellcasting mod in other homebrews.

    I re-read our earlier conversation about max spell level, and I'm still a little confused. Your example of being a 13th-level Whitescourge casting Cure Wounds on his buddy allows for a 7th level spell as long as you expend 7 hit die. But a 13th-level Whitescourge has a Max Spell Level in the class table of 4th level. What does the max spell level in the table refer to, if not to the max level at which a Whitescourge can cast a spell? The levels that you get new Max Spell Levels are also out of whack for a third-caster.

    I do still love the casting from hit dice mechanic, and think it works well on paper, just looking for clarification there. It's probably also worth noting that at 20th level, you essentially get a 9th level spell slot back every short rest. Expedited Revitalisation makes sense both thematically and mechanically - great design and execution.

    Pinnacle of Health is a big buff that comes at the same time as Extra Attack for Burning Blade, essentially turning you into a d14 hit dice class past level 1. I can see this is an attempt to balance out the damage you're taking from spellcasting, but without running the numbers (i suck at them!)/playtesting it's still a bit hard to see the power level. As it is, I'd probably keep this feature the same but move it to a level that it can stand on its own, without also gaining other benefits at the same level.

    Eternal Vitality feels more like a ribbon with a little extra than a tier-upgrade - although I guess Whitescourges get their upgrade at 12, when they gain access to 6th level spells, rather than 11, in which case it makes a little more sense.

    Vision of the Heartseer is a cool feature, but should probably be a bonus action, and give you more useful information than just how many HP it has left. Maybe learn its vulnerabilities and resistances/immunities?

    Unquenchable Life is badass. I'd swap this with Eternal Vitality as your 3rd-tier upgrade feature. As a rule I don't like features that scale off proficiency, but I think I already mentioned that and you decided against changing it.

    Pulsing Form is solid mechanically, but should probably read: "Beginning at 17th level, your body can’t contain the radiance within, releasing it into the surrounding area. Whenever a hostile creature ends its turn within 10 feet of you, you can use a reaction to force the creature to make a Dexterity saving throw against your Snippets of Power DC. On a fail, it takes 2d8 radiant damage, or 4d8 if it is undead or from the Negative Energy plane."

    Spellmaster is oddly worded, because as a class you don't have spell slots to expend. If it works how I think it works (giving you free 1st-level slots forever), I think it probably needs to be toned back. Similar to the wizard's Spell Mastery, I'd only give the Whitescourge one first-level spell for free - but instead of also gaining a 2nd level spell, they can choose which 1st level one they can cast at-will when they prepare spells for the day (lot of good Cleric options even at high levels - Bless, Guiding Bolt [great w a rogue], Sanctuary, Shield of Faith).

    Restoration is a good capstone for this class. Nice work.

    For all your subclasses, I'd suggest finding some way to combine or trim their 5th and 7th level features into one. Given that Burning Blade should probably get Extra Attack at the same time as martials, I'd suggest moving their features to 5th and putting Pinnacle of Health at 7th - only 1 level after you get access to 3rd level spells, so still in time to cast away freely with Spirit Guardians and Mass Healing Word.

    Woundknitter: Pool of Life and Benevolence are both solid - although Pool of Life is really two features rolled into one. If you were going to move Pinnacle of Health to 7th, I'd just scrap Our Souls as One altogether. I do like the idea of somebody else choosing to steal your health when they need it from a gameplay point of view, I don't really see how it works fluff-wise, and you can already save people as a BA on your own turn. Master of the Aura would be more appealing if Vision of the Heartseer was buffed in usefulness/power.

    Exalt: Woundknitter gives a big buff to healing at level 1. Exalt gives a big buff to...detecting magic and scaring zzombies. It probably needs a bit more oomph there. If this is the spellcasty subclass, it might even be a thought to give them a limited subclass spells list ala the paladin/druid/warlock - full of things like burning hands and fireball. If not, Imperial Fire could probably come down here, alongside a more passive boost. I do like that you get to choose charmed or frightened, for social and combat situations - that's a nice touch. Exarch Form is ridiculously powerful when you compare it to the Woundknitter's 14th level feature - so I'd either drop its power or significantly boost Master of the Aura. Does the turn that you use to activate the feature count against the number of rounds you can stay in the form? I'd probably just make it last for a minute like many other classes' transformation-type features.

    Burning Blade: Brilliant Technique is a nice idea, but again scales of proficiency. a 1 Whitescourge/19 anything else gets just as much value from this as a level 20 Whitescourge. Is the effect indefinite? Most other classes get magical-weapon-features around level 6. I can see the fluff reasoning behind calling Extra Attack Radiant Speed, but for consistency's sake/ease of reading, it should probably just be Extra Attack. This subclass is a bit trickier as it doesn't easily fit into my Pinnacle of Health-at-level-7 pattern. If you added the extra damage scaling into the base Brilliant Technique feature, that would go a long way. Although, as it stands, at level 7 a Whitescourge with 16 Strength, PAM and a glaive will be doing 2d10+1d4+3d6+18 (average of 42 damage) - vs a raging barbarian's 2d10+1d4+15 (average of 28.5). I'd definitely tone down the bonus damage you're giving them on their weapon attacks. Mastery of Flame is an even more attractive feature than Exarch Form as it is always-on. Although strictly worse damage-wise than a rapier that has been Brilliant Techniqued, that rider is massive. End of their next turn means you're giving your allies advantage vs them and the creature gets disadvantage on all its attacks as well. And you can do this every round. While dual-wielding another rapier that has been Brilliant Techniqued, and hitting away with advantage and massive damage over and over. Or wielding a shield. This subclass probably needs the most work out of the three to become balanced IMO.

    Overall, I think this class has come a long way since the last time I read it, and it looks like you've got a solid grasp on where you want it to be thematically and mechanically. It definitely feels unique enough to stand on its own as a class, and the hit dice mechanic is really interesting and does seem (to my admittedly shoddy eye) to be reasonably well balanced. A few screws to tighten in regards to wording - I understand there's probably a few mechanical points we will still disagree on - and another look over the Burning Blade and it will be all sweet for me.
    My 5E homebrew thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...omebrew-Thread

    Including:

    • Path of the Reaver Barbarian (kill all baddies with TWF!)
    • The Bulwark Martial Archetype (become a human shield!)
    • The Sporting Wizard (because magic is for sissies!)
    • Headhunter class (poison your weapons, scalp your enemies!)
    • Mesmer class (Int-based melee, extra reactions!)
    • Shaman class (thunderbolts and lightning!)

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SunderedWorldDM View Post
    Destined: I can't access GMbinder on this device, so sadly I can't give much feedback. From what I've heard, it seems you have a solid idea, varied and interesting mechanics, and Hero Dice to tie it all together. Just again, what really exceeds expectation? All D&D PCs are mighty heroes. This one just has its job in the name.

    I'll make this last edit and then put up a PDF of the class too. It's not-within-expectations are more on the mechanical side (it has a d6 hit dice, a Charisma primary stat, and simple weapon proficiency but its role is melee combatant), rather than the thematic side. Though it is someone that is good at things because fate said so rather than the standard D&D assumption of people who learned exceptional skills through practice for a weaker thematic unexpected nature.
    Currently operating the 5e Subclass Contest and the 5e Base Class Contest. Check them out if even just to vote or give feedback, we love that in there.

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    My DMsGuild content. Most of it was written with feedback from right here on the forums.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    Thanks for bumping this thread, SWDM. I'd almost forgotten about this little contest! Didn't realise it was almost over.

    Appreciate your comments on the mesmer - I do think your earlier critique about the subclasses feeling too distant/distinct from the base class was warranted, and I did intend to add a third that would feel more like your average dude with psychic powers and hopefully tie the others together - but didn't get around to it. I did update the capstone ability to give you the option of using your reaction to impose disadvantage on the target of your Psych Out's attack roll/ability check/saving throw. I ended up not giving them a 4th reaction as I think choosing which 3 of your 7 reactions you're going to use per round is enough book-keeping/decision making for a player, and I think at-will disadvantage is a pretty juicy ability, even if it's only one specific target per round @ level 20.

    I'll give your Whitescourge my best shot at reviewing, and if anyone else would like me to take another look at their class before the deadline, just let me know.

    Spoiler: Whitescourge
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    Still love the fluff at the start. Simple and evocative - gives you a clear picture of what to expect from the class.

    Does your Center give you benefits at level 1? Its position in the class table would suggest so, but it doesn't look like you actually gain any features from your Center until 3rd level. (I later saw that you must have changed around the levels you gain features - the text of the Center feature should be updated to reflect that :) )

    I still think Rebuke Unlife should scale at cantrip levels - eg 2d6 base, 3d6 at 5, 4d6 at 11, 5d6 at 17. I'm also not sure if this is important enough a feature to be in the class table - given that how often you use it will be entirely dependent on how many undead are in your campaign. If you want it to stay in the table, I can't help but feel there should be a way to use this feature against non-undead - I know it might be hard to work out the fluff, but I would like to see a line or two at the end saying something like: "You can also choose to release your stored hatred for the undead as a tangible wave of unrelenting force. As long as you have not used your Rebuke Unlife feature since your last long rest, you can use an action to cause all creatures you choose within 15 feet of you to make a Strength save against your Snippets of Power DC. On a fail, a creature takes 2d6 force damage and is knocked prone. On a success, a creature takes half as much damage and is not knocked prone. The damage increases as you gain levels in the class, according to the Whitescourge table. Once you use Rebuke Unlife in this way, you can't use your Rebuke Unlife feature again until you finish a long rest. "

    You then have a class feature that is usable throughout your career, and gives the Whitescourge some much needed power at lower levels. Primal Resilience will be great when it comes up, but won't come up often, and the cantrips from Snippets of Power will be roughly equal to just hitting things with a pair of daggers until 5th level.

    My issue with Spellcasting keying off Constitution is that since Constitution is already a secondary stat for everybody, you lower a spellcaster's needed attributes from 3 to 2. Every other caster needs their mental stat for spells, Con for HP, and Str or Dex for armour. Woundknitter and Exalt Whitescourges just need Con and Dex - Burning Blades also have the potential to stay with Dex using rapiers or that OP elven glaive, or take up Strength for heavy weapons. It's not a dealbreaker for everyone, as shown in this thread, but it does just feel out of place to me. Personally, after reading the fluff, either Strength or Charisma would fit better for me as a spellcasting stat. Charisma is boring but works for the same reason as a sorcerer using Cha - it's an innate, personal power that you're channeling. Strength keeps your casting stat out-of-the-box, and can use nearly all the same fluff as Con - resolve, physical might, perseverance etc. I still think it makes sense to cast from hit dice with Strength as a spellcasting mod too. Obviously it's ultimately up to you, but this is why I and others have stayed away from Con as a spellcasting mod in other homebrews.

    I re-read our earlier conversation about max spell level, and I'm still a little confused. Your example of being a 13th-level Whitescourge casting Cure Wounds on his buddy allows for a 7th level spell as long as you expend 7 hit die. But a 13th-level Whitescourge has a Max Spell Level in the class table of 4th level. What does the max spell level in the table refer to, if not to the max level at which a Whitescourge can cast a spell? The levels that you get new Max Spell Levels are also out of whack for a third-caster.

    I do still love the casting from hit dice mechanic, and think it works well on paper, just looking for clarification there. It's probably also worth noting that at 20th level, you essentially get a 9th level spell slot back every short rest. Expedited Revitalization makes sense both thematically and mechanically - great design and execution.

    Pinnacle of Health is a big buff that comes at the same time as Extra Attack for Burning Blade, essentially turning you into a d14 hit dice class past level 1. I can see this is an attempt to balance out the damage you're taking from spellcasting, but without running the numbers (i suck at them!)/playtesting it's still a bit hard to see the power level. As it is, I'd probably keep this feature the same but move it to a level that it can stand on its own, without also gaining other benefits at the same level.

    Eternal Vitality feels more like a ribbon with a little extra than a tier-upgrade - although I guess Whitescourges get their upgrade at 12, when they gain access to 6th level spells, rather than 11, in which case it makes a little more sense.

    Vision of the Heartseer is a cool feature, but should probably be a bonus action, and give you more useful information than just how many HP it has left. Maybe learn its vulnerabilities and resistances/immunities?

    Unquenchable Life is badass. I'd swap this with Eternal Vitality as your 3rd-tier upgrade feature. As a rule I don't like features that scale off proficiency, but I think I already mentioned that and you decided against changing it.

    Pulsing Form is solid mechanically, but should probably read: "Beginning at 17th level, your body can’t contain the radiance within, releasing it into the surrounding area. Whenever a hostile creature ends its turn within 10 feet of you, you can use a reaction to force the creature to make a Dexterity saving throw against your Snippets of Power DC. On a fail, it takes 2d8 radiant damage, or 4d8 if it is undead or from the Negative Energy plane."

    Spellmaster is oddly worded, because as a class you don't have spell slots to expend. If it works how I think it works (giving you free 1st-level slots forever), I think it probably needs to be toned back. Similar to the wizard's Spell Mastery, I'd only give the Whitescourge one first-level spell for free - but instead of also gaining a 2nd level spell, they can choose which 1st level one they can cast at-will when they prepare spells for the day (lot of good Cleric options even at high levels - Bless, Guiding Bolt [great w a rogue], Sanctuary, Shield of Faith).

    Restoration is a good capstone for this class. Nice work.

    For all your subclasses, I'd suggest finding some way to combine or trim their 5th and 7th level features into one. Given that Burning Blade should probably get Extra Attack at the same time as martials, I'd suggest moving their features to 5th and putting Pinnacle of Health at 7th - only 1 level after you get access to 3rd level spells, so still in time to cast away freely with Spirit Guardians and Mass Healing Word.

    Woundknitter: Pool of Life and Benevolence are both solid - although Pool of Life is really two features rolled into one. If you were going to move Pinnacle of Health to 7th, I'd just scrap Our Souls as One altogether. I do like the idea of somebody else choosing to steal your health when they need it from a gameplay point of view, I don't really see how it works fluff-wise, and you can already save people as a BA on your own turn. Master of the Aura would be more appealing if Vision of the Heartseer was buffed in usefulness/power.

    Exalt: Woundknitter gives a big buff to healing at level 1. Exalt gives a big buff to...detecting magic and scaring zombies. It probably needs a bit more oomph there. If this is the spellcasty subclass, it might even be a thought to give them a limited subclass spells list ala the paladin/druid/warlock - full of things like burning hands and fireball. If not, Imperial Fire could probably come down here, alongside a more passive boost. I do like that you get to choose charmed or frightened, for social and combat situations - that's a nice touch. Exarch Form is ridiculously powerful when you compare it to the Woundknitter's 14th level feature - so I'd either drop its power or significantly boost Master of the Aura. Does the turn that you use to activate the feature count against the number of rounds you can stay in the form? I'd probably just make it last for a minute like many other classes' transformation-type features.

    Burning Blade: Brilliant Technique is a nice idea, but again scales of proficiency. a 1 Whitescourge/19 anything else gets just as much value from this as a level 20 Whitescourge. Is the effect indefinite? Most other classes get magical-weapon-features around level 6. I can see the fluff reasoning behind calling Extra Attack Radiant Speed, but for consistency's sake/ease of reading, it should probably just be Extra Attack. This subclass is a bit trickier as it doesn't easily fit into my Pinnacle of Health-at-level-7 pattern. If you added the extra damage scaling into the base Brilliant Technique feature, that would go a long way. Although, as it stands, at level 7 a Whitescourge with 16 Strength, PAM and a glaive will be doing 2d10+1d4+3d6+18 (average of 42 damage) - vs a raging barbarian's 2d10+1d4+15 (average of 28.5). I'd definitely tone down the bonus damage you're giving them on their weapon attacks. Mastery of Flame is an even more attractive feature than Exarch Form as it is always-on. Although strictly worse damage-wise than a rapier that has been Brilliant Techniqued, that rider is massive. End of their next turn means you're giving your allies advantage vs them and the creature gets disadvantage on all its attacks as well. And you can do this every round. While dual-wielding another rapier that has been Brilliant Techniqued, and hitting away with advantage and massive damage over and over. Or wielding a shield. This subclass probably needs the most work out of the three to become balanced IMO.

    Overall, I think this class has come a long way since the last time I read it, and it looks like you've got a solid grasp on where you want it to be thematically and mechanically. It definitely feels unique enough to stand on its own as a class, and the hit dice mechanic is really interesting and does seem (to my admittedly shoddy eye) to be reasonably well balanced. A few screws to tighten in regards to wording - I understand there's probably a few mechanical points we will still disagree on - and another look over the Burning Blade and it will be all sweet for me.
    Thanks for the in-depth review! Just what I need.

    Center, Radiant Speed, Vision of the Heartseer, Pulsing Form, Spellmaster, and Subclasses fixed/altered/corrected, maybe not entirely the ways you suggested, but it gets them closer to balanced, clear and workable.

    I'll take an in-depth look at your subclass comments in a bit, but I've tried altering Woundknitter and Exalt to eliminate the 7th level abilities and move them all to 5th. To make Exalt appealing, I've put Imperial Fire into the Visible Might ability, so it gains the charmed/frightened at 3rd level. Still need to take a bigger look at Burning Blade, though, as I see how it could quickly get out of hand.

    EDIT: Did a subclass redux: eliminated the extra damage on Burning Blade, gave Woundknitter a pretty powerful capstone, and nixed/reduced some features on Exhaled Form. Would you mind looking through and seeing if I've at least addressed the problems you brought up, if not entirely fixing them?

    The following has been added to Rebuke Unlife:
    However, you can also manipulate this power to harm those who have a beating heart in their body, not simply those with death behind their eyes. Once before you take a long rest, you can use Rebuke Unlife on any creatures within range, not just undead or residents of the Negative Energy Plane.
    I decided to keep the die leveling as-is because it lines up with the spell prep max, and as you improve in spellcasting power, the hostility and potency of your internal power increases. If I change it now, I feel it might throw off that balance.

    To answer your 'max spell' question, here's a line from the Spellcasting ability.
    The maximum level of spell you can prepare is shown on the table above.
    So you can cast it at any level you wish, but the spells you have prepared must be of X level and under. Does that make sense?

    Thanks a lot! I really needed this. Everyone else, hit me with your best shot!
    Last edited by SunderedWorldDM; 2018-11-21 at 05:22 PM.
    See that cool Teifling? Thanks, potatopeelerkin! If you want something like it, they have more avatars up for adoption in the thread with the same name...

    Hey, I have an extended signature now!

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Ahh, yep, that makes total sense! Must have missed that line about max spell level being for prepared spells.

    I also think I worked out why the spell progression was giving me headaches - you get slower spell slot progression than a third caster, despite getting spellcasting at the same level as a halfcaster - and I was trying to square that circle for a while before realising that you are neither a half or a third caster, as the casting from HD mechanic lets you upcast spells known before either of those could. If that was your thought process, that justifies the unique progression enough for me, and whether or not it is accurate/balanced would probably have to be gauged through play testing or by someone more well versed in math than me.

    Sorry I was so late in giving feedback, but it looks like you are already polishing the finished product! Good stuff :)

    Edit: I will take a closer look at the changes this afternoon, particularly for subclasses. I can say right now that I like your Rebuke Unlife change much better than the one I suggested - simple, straightforward and useful!
    Last edited by pygmybatrider; 2018-11-21 at 06:16 PM.
    My 5E homebrew thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...omebrew-Thread

    Including:

    • Path of the Reaver Barbarian (kill all baddies with TWF!)
    • The Bulwark Martial Archetype (become a human shield!)
    • The Sporting Wizard (because magic is for sissies!)
    • Headhunter class (poison your weapons, scalp your enemies!)
    • Mesmer class (Int-based melee, extra reactions!)
    • Shaman class (thunderbolts and lightning!)

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Alright SWDM, on a second read-through, here's my thoughts on the changes:

    I'm not sure if it's because I'm reading between edits, or because my brain is fried from new dad duties, but the first few levels look really different to me. I could have sworn the Whitescourge got Spellcasting at 2, and the Center features came at 1st (but the feature text said 3rd - that was the cause of my confusion in the original post), and Primal Resilience came at 2nd. Sorry if my comments have caused any confusion on your end!

    I think the early progression is a little messy at the moment, gaining 2 relatively weak features at 1st level, one situationally strong one at 2nd, and then 3 features at 3rd.

    Given the really specific nature of some of those features, I think they should probably be reshuffled to make sure the Whitescourge isn't really suffering for those first two levels. Here's my recommended order:

    I actually liked the Center features coming at 1st, as they really made the subclass feel like part of your origin story. I read them as if they worked that way on the first review, and didn't see any major balance issues other than dipping 1 level of Burning Blade for free proficiency to weapon damage forever.

    I'd put Center features and Snippets of Power at 1st. The healy subclass can heal, the fighty subclass can fight, the flamey subclass can flame, all from level 1, with the added benefit of a ranged attack cantrip or Guidance or Thaumaturgy. Otherwise, the Whitescourge has no martial weapons or spells until 3rd level, having to deal with simple weapon or cantrip die and one use of non-undead Rebuke Unlife per rest.

    At 2nd, I'd give them Rebuke Unlife and Spellcasting. I think that if you give them spellcasting at 3rd level, and they prepare spells at 1/3rd of Whitescourge level, it'd be really odd to not give them 1/3rd caster progression - ie 2nd @ 7th level, 3rd @ 13th level, 4th @ 19th. The way it is now is sort of a mix between half and third caster, and I liked that as working in combination with the HD casting to make a really unique spellcasting class.

    At 3rd, they gain Expedited Revitalisation, which gives them a bunch more 'mana' to cast spells, and then progression carries on as written from there.

    Spellmaster should probably specify "that you have prepared", or "from the cleric spell list" if you want to give them an extra prepared spell slot, as at the moment you could justifiably choose Shield or Absorb Elements from the wizard list.

    I can't remember if the bit about not dying from old age was in Restoration the last time I read it, but I like it - it fits the fluff of certain temples hiding their warriors away for times when they need them. I'm picturing Vader meditation chambers and the like - very cool.

    Subclasses:

    Woundknitter: I like the new 14th level feature. In fact, I like it so much I would probably scrap the Master of the Aura one altogether. Maybe I am overlooking something, but I'm struggling to find situations where Vision of the Heartseer would be worth using over casting a spell - the only place I can see it proving useful is sizing somebody up out-of-combat to see whether you can fight them or you need to run the hell away.

    Exalt: I like the Charm-or-Frighten ability coming early, feels stronger and fluffier and gives the subclass some substance in comparison to the other two, who already had their niche carved out early.

    Burning Blade: Brilliant Technique only lasting for a minute is nice, as it means you will at least have to use one bonus action per combat to initiate it. It's still unlimited as written though - compare the Hexblade's Curse, which is considered one of the better 1st level abilities in the game, which gives proficiency (grr) to hit for 1 min, once per rest. The curse also crits on a 19-20, but is limited to 1 target only, whereas Brilliant Technique affects anybody who gets in your way.

    On further thought, I'm also a little puzzled by the dead levels at 6 and 10. I know you get new spell levels here, but you also do at 17, where you receive Pulsing Form, which is one of your stronger features. EKs/ATs also gain class features at 7/13/19 (not sure if ASI @ 19 counts...) when they learn new spell levels - although I know you're technically not exactly a 3rd caster.

    One way I can see to change that is to shift Apex Primal Resilience to 15, then Unquenchable Life to 11 (I really like this idea - most classes get a real power boost at 11), Eternal Vitality to 10, move your level 5 class features to level 6, and make a new class feature @ 5 that essentially gives the choice of Extra Attack, or adding your spellcasting modifier (I guess Con in this case) to your cantrip damage. Something like:

    Blazing Soul
    Beginning at 5th level, the intensity of your inner radiance manifests itself in one of two ways. You can choose one of the following benefits to gain:

    Extra Attack: You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn.
    Empowered Cantrip: You can add your Constitution modifier to the damage done by your Whitescourge cantrips.

    I feel like I'm adding complexity with each comment I make, rather than simplifying, so do feel free to ignore any and all of this - it's just what's coming into my admittedly muddled head as I read! I might be inventing problems when there aren't any, and I definitely won't pretend to have a better grasp on the intended design of your class than you do. It's looking pretty good at this stage, and I think I'm thinking the same way I do about my own homebrews when they are at that stage - lots of nitpicking, lots of what ifs, lots of how abouts!
    Last edited by pygmybatrider; 2018-11-22 at 04:15 AM.
    My 5E homebrew thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...omebrew-Thread

    Including:

    • Path of the Reaver Barbarian (kill all baddies with TWF!)
    • The Bulwark Martial Archetype (become a human shield!)
    • The Sporting Wizard (because magic is for sissies!)
    • Headhunter class (poison your weapons, scalp your enemies!)
    • Mesmer class (Int-based melee, extra reactions!)
    • Shaman class (thunderbolts and lightning!)

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    Alright SWDM, on a second read-through, here's my thoughts on the changes:

    I'm not sure if it's because I'm reading between edits, or because my brain is fried from new dad duties, but the first few levels look really different to me. I could have sworn the Whitescourge got Spellcasting at 2, and the Center features came at 1st (but the feature text said 3rd - that was the cause of my confusion in the original post), and Primal Resilience came at 2nd. Sorry if my comments have caused any confusion on your end!

    I think the early progression is a little messy at the moment, gaining 2 relatively weak features at 1st level, one situationally strong one at 2nd, and then 3 features at 3rd.

    Given the really specific nature of some of those features, I think they should probably be reshuffled to make sure the Whitescourge isn't really suffering for those first two levels. Here's my recommended order:

    I actually liked the Center features coming at 1st, as they really made the subclass feel like part of your origin story. I read them as if they worked that way on the first review, and didn't see any major balance issues other than dipping 1 level of Burning Blade for free proficiency to weapon damage forever.

    I'd put Center features and Snippets of Power at 1st. The healy subclass can heal, the fighty subclass can fight, the flamey subclass can flame, all from level 1, with the added benefit of a ranged attack cantrip or Guidance or Thaumaturgy. Otherwise, the Whitescourge has no martial weapons or spells until 3rd level, having to deal with simple weapon or cantrip die and one use of non-undead Rebuke Unlife per rest.

    At 2nd, I'd give them Rebuke Unlife and Spellcasting. I think that if you give them spellcasting at 3rd level, and they prepare spells at 1/3rd of Whitescourge level, it'd be really odd to not give them 1/3rd caster progression - ie 2nd @ 7th level, 3rd @ 13th level, 4th @ 19th. The way it is now is sort of a mix between half and third caster, and I liked that as working in combination with the HD casting to make a really unique spellcasting class.

    At 3rd, they gain Expedited Revitalisation, which gives them a bunch more 'mana' to cast spells, and then progression carries on as written from there.

    Spellmaster should probably specify "that you have prepared", or "from the cleric spell list" if you want to give them an extra prepared spell slot, as at the moment you could justifiably choose Shield or Absorb Elements from the wizard list.

    I can't remember if the bit about not dying from old age was in Restoration the last time I read it, but I like it - it fits the fluff of certain temples hiding their warriors away for times when they need them. I'm picturing Vader meditation chambers and the like - very cool.

    Subclasses:

    Woundknitter: I like the new 14th level feature. In fact, I like it so much I would probably scrap the Master of the Aura one altogether. Maybe I am overlooking something, but I'm struggling to find situations where Vision of the Heartseer would be worth using over casting a spell - the only place I can see it proving useful is sizing somebody up out-of-combat to see whether you can fight them or you need to run the hell away.

    Exalt: I like the Charm-or-Frighten ability coming early, feels stronger and fluffier and gives the subclass some substance in comparison to the other two, who already had their niche carved out early.

    Burning Blade: Brilliant Technique only lasting for a minute is nice, as it means you will at least have to use one bonus action per combat to initiate it. It's still unlimited as written though - compare the Hexblade's Curse, which is considered one of the better 1st level abilities in the game, which gives proficiency (grr) to hit for 1 min, once per rest. The curse also crits on a 19-20, but is limited to 1 target only, whereas Brilliant Technique affects anybody who gets in your way.

    On further thought, I'm also a little puzzled by the dead levels at 6 and 10. I know you get new spell levels here, but you also do at 17, where you receive Pulsing Form, which is one of your stronger features. EKs/ATs also gain class features at 7/13/19 (not sure if ASI @ 19 counts...) when they learn new spell levels - although I know you're technically not exactly a 3rd caster.

    One way I can see to change that is to shift Apex Primal Resilience to 15, then Unquenchable Life to 11 (I really like this idea - most classes get a real power boost at 11), Eternal Vitality to 10, move your level 5 class features to level 6, and make a new class feature @ 5 that essentially gives the choice of Extra Attack, or adding your spellcasting modifier (I guess Con in this case) to your cantrip damage. Something like:

    Blazing Soul
    Beginning at 5th level, the intensity of your inner radiance manifests itself in one of two ways. You can choose one of the following benefits to gain:

    Extra Attack: You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn.
    Empowered Cantrip: You can add your Constitution modifier to the damage done by your Whitescourge cantrips.

    I feel like I'm adding complexity with each comment I make, rather than simplifying, so do feel free to ignore any and all of this - it's just what's coming into my admittedly muddled head as I read! I might be inventing problems when there aren't any, and I definitely won't pretend to have a better grasp on the intended design of your class than you do. It's looking pretty good at this stage, and I think I'm thinking the same way I do about my own homebrews when they are at that stage - lots of nitpicking, lots of what ifs, lots of how abouts!
    Yeah, I changed the first few levels quite a bit. I like your changes, so I'll reorder a bit to get those in place.

    I feel like reordering the 'gap levels' at this point would be a bit too much of a hassle, so I'll leave it be.

    Will reword Spellmaster. Thanks!

    I see the problem with Brilliant Blade. I just need to find some way of having a bit of an extra 'oomf' of radiant damage on normal hits without it getting overpowered. Maybe the max level of spell you can prepare? So you would have to take Whitescourge, and it wouldn't get out of hand. But that feels too weak... maybe add to both attack and damage? So on a dip, you can essentially summon a +1 magic weapon. No, that's too much. I see the problem now!

    To be honest, I'm ready to simply leave it as-is and give a good reward to anyone who takes a dip. Proficiency bonus boost in damage gets less significant the higher level you are, so it's only disbalancing at the lower levels.

    Thanks a lot for your advice! I tried looking critically through the Mesmer, but your eye is better than mine, so I saw nothing that immediately popped out to me as odd or a red flag. Does anyone else have any comments on the Whitescourge?
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SunderedWorldDM View Post
    Biotinker: I have a hard time getting over the fact that the only ability this class has is the enhancements. Every 5e class, even the Wizard, has class features outside of the core mechanic, but Biotinker doesn't have that. I suppose one could use that argument for the 'expectations' bit, but I have a hard time getting over the lack of variance.
    Strictly speaking, the Biotinker has more features than the Wizard (Weaponised Form, Extra Attack, Sufficiently Advanced Strikes, Timeless Body, True Genius vs. Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, Signature Spell). Do these features feel less like features, because they're quite passive? Or for some other reason?

    Taking another look at the Whitescourge, Spellcasting is confusing - am I right in thinking that you can upcast spells to level/2 (like a full caster), but only prepare spells like a third-caster? That's a bit odd, and also, owwwwwww.

    Rebuke Unlife is interesting - it's very thematic, but I'd be leery of an ability that's just 1/long rest in games without undead, but up against a necromancer or Strahd or what-have-you becomes spammable without limits.

    I'm not sure about Expedited Revitalisation. It's so so thematic, but also daaang, that's a lot of health. Multiclassing probably breaks it, but I think it's fine otherwise?

    Pinnacle of Health: DAAAANG. I might just never cast spells. This is more health than a barbarian, and more recovery to boot.

    Subclasses look pretty fine, if not super exciting.

    Overall: daaang. I don't know - maybe the power level works out, maybe it doesn't. As a habitual gish, though, I'm pretty sure I'd just never cast spells, and soak aaalll of the damage.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueHairedKat View Post
    Strictly speaking, the Biotinker has more features than the Wizard (Weaponised Form, Extra Attack, Sufficiently Advanced Strikes, Timeless Body, True Genius vs. Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, Signature Spell). Do these features feel less like features, because they're quite passive? Or for some other reason?
    Well, add Wizard Schools into the mix and you get three extra highly flavored abilities. The passivity is one part, definitely, but the other is that even when you do have abilities for your subclasses, they're written out as Augmentations, not as standalone abilities. Just the void of things that aren't Augmentations or specifically written to... augment... Augmentations is what I'm talking about.

    Taking another look at the Whitescourge, Spellcasting is confusing - am I right in thinking that you can upcast spells to level/2 (like a full caster), but only prepare spells like a third-caster? That's a bit odd, and also, owwwwwww.
    You can upcast spells as far as you'd like (there's just a cap on what level you can prepare to, which I think is throwing people off), but preparation as a third caster, yup.

    Rebuke Unlife is interesting - it's very thematic, but I'd be leery of an ability that's just 1/long rest in games without undead, but up against a necromancer or Strahd or what-have-you becomes spammable without limits.
    I think it's okay as-is.

    I'm not sure about Expedited Revitalisation. It's so so thematic, but also daaang, that's a lot of health. Multiclassing probably breaks it, but I think it's fine otherwise?
    Yeah, I'm afraid of that kind of disbalance too, but I've been told it's okay. Just gotta cross my fingers multiclassing isn't an issue! And besides, what would I change it to without drastically limiting the spellcasting potential of the Whitescourge?

    Pinnacle of Health: DAAAANG. I might just never cast spells. This is more health than a barbarian, and more recovery to boot.
    Yeah, but you're going to be casting a number of spells, and those will drain you. I added this so it's near impossible to commit suicide by your own spell. There's also other abilities sprinkled throughout that drain your HP pool, so I though this would be good to pad it. I mean, you're just getting 3 extra hit points per level. At 20th, you'd have 260 HP (in theory) while a Barbarian has 240 (in theory). That's not a drastic difference, although you're probably not going to be as front-line, so you'll be a bit harder to kill. So I think it should be fine- it could be abused, but that's not the spirit of the class.

    Subclasses look pretty fine, if not super exciting.
    They'll do.

    Overall: daaang. I don't know - maybe the power level works out, maybe it doesn't. As a habitual gish, though, I'm pretty sure I'd just never cast spells, and soak aaalll of the damage.
    Yeah, that's fair. It takes a specific type of player, willing to get into the give-and-take mechanics to let this class shine. I feel it could easily be abused, particularly by a Burning Blade jut doing melee with their huge HP pool, but that's not the intention of the class.

    Thank you very much! I appreciate your feedback. Anyone else wanna take a swing?
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Sorry everybody, I was more than a little late to the announcement, but the voting period has begun and no more changes may be made to any classes. The voting period will end on December 2nd in which we will tally up the votes and saw what class won. Please visit the voting thread in this link to voice your opinion.
    Last edited by Requilac; 2018-11-25 at 08:01 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    It’s the last day for everyone to vote, so if anyone wishes to vote but hasn’t done so yet they had best do it soon.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Only three hours left until voting is over, if you are going to vote then its now or never.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    So what's the protocol in case of a tie?
    Currently operating the 5e Subclass Contest and the 5e Base Class Contest. Check them out if even just to vote or give feedback, we love that in there.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    So what's the protocol in case of a tie?
    Maybe the person who got the most net votes?
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    The Voting period is over and the results of this competition are as shown below.

    Voting Points
    The Destined: IIII III (8) 2 1st place vote, 1 2nd place vote
    The Mesmer: IIII III (8) 2 1st palce vote, 1 2nd place vote
    The Whitescourge: IIII I (6)
    The Deathwalker: IIII (4)
    The Deadeye: II (2)
    The Biotinker: II (2)

    So it appears that The Destined and Mesmer are tied in 1st place, the Whitescourge scored in 2nd place, and the Deathwalker scored in 3rd. Congratulations to Molemage and Pygmybatrider. I would normally try to settle the tie, but seeing as how both reached their equaling score of 8 upon the final vote, had equal net amounts of votes, and had an equal amount of 1st place votes it doesn't seem like there is an easy way to break it. If any of you have any ideas on what to do here please tell me about them.

    _____________________

    Before we move onto next competition, something needs to be spoken about. Namely the fact that we had a tied vote fore which theme to go with next. Pygmybatrider and Sundered World DM voted for the theme of time, while me Molemage voted for the theme of monsters. Ivelius abstained from voting. But Molemage and SunderedWorldDM both showed interest in playing a Winter themed competition without actually voting for it. But would you all prefer to go with the idea of a Winter theme for next competition, even though no one technically voted on it, or would you prefer that we hash out the tie between Time and Monsters instead? How I would personally handle breaking the tie here is by choosing which one got the most votes first, which in this case is time, but I am open to suggestions on alternatives if the latter option becomes wanted.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    The Voting period is over and the results of this competition are as shown below.

    Voting Points
    The Destined: IIII III (8) 2 1st place vote, 1 2nd place vote
    The Mesmer: IIII III (8) 2 1st palce vote, 1 2nd place vote
    The Whitescourge: IIII I (6)
    The Deathwalker: IIII (4)
    The Deadeye: II (2)
    The Biotinker: II (2)

    So it appears that The Destined and Mesmer are tied in 1st place, the Whitescourge scored in 2nd place, and the Deathwalker scored in 3rd. Congratulations to Molemage and Pygmybatrider. I would normally try to settle the tie, but seeing as how both reached their equaling score of 8 upon the final vote, had equal net amounts of votes, and had an equal amount of 1st place votes it doesn't seem like there is an easy way to break it. If any of you have any ideas on what to do here please tell me about them.

    _____________________

    Before we move onto next competition, something needs to be spoken about. Namely the fact that we had a tied vote fore which theme to go with next. Pygmybatrider and Sundered World DM voted for the theme of time, while me Molemage voted for the theme of monsters. Ivelius abstained from voting. But Molemage and SunderedWorldDM both showed interest in playing a Winter themed competition without actually voting for it. But would you all prefer to go with the idea of a Winter theme for next competition, even though no one technically voted on it, or would you prefer that we hash out the tie between Time and Monsters instead? How I would personally handle breaking the tie here is by choosing which one got the most votes first, which in this case is time, but I am open to suggestions on alternatives if the latter option becomes wanted.
    First, thank you so much to everyone who voted for me! This was my first class contest, and to make the leaderboard was an achievement I will flaunt in my signature for a while to come. I can't wait to improve the Whitescourge until it's actually playable!

    Second, if I could, I'd like to change my vote to Winter, and I'd like to stay away from Monster as I feel there's a lot of existing content around that angle, but various interpretations of Chronomancy would be a lot of room to homebrew in. But, of course, I am but a drop in an ocean...
    See that cool Teifling? Thanks, potatopeelerkin! If you want something like it, they have more avatars up for adoption in the thread with the same name...

    Hey, I have an extended signature now!

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    The Voting period is over and the results of this competition are as shown below.

    Voting Points
    The Destined: IIII III (8) 2 1st place vote, 1 2nd place vote
    The Mesmer: IIII III (8) 2 1st palce vote, 1 2nd place vote
    The Whitescourge: IIII I (6)
    The Deathwalker: IIII (4)
    The Deadeye: II (2)
    The Biotinker: II (2)

    So it appears that The Destined and Mesmer are tied in 1st place, the Whitescourge scored in 2nd place, and the Deathwalker scored in 3rd. Congratulations to Molemage and Pygmybatrider. I would normally try to settle the tie, but seeing as how both reached their equaling score of 8 upon the final vote, had equal net amounts of votes, and had an equal amount of 1st place votes it doesn't seem like there is an easy way to break it. If any of you have any ideas on what to do here please tell me about them.

    _____________________

    Before we move onto next competition, something needs to be spoken about. Namely the fact that we had a tied vote fore which theme to go with next. Pygmybatrider and Sundered World DM voted for the theme of time, while me Molemage voted for the theme of monsters. Ivelius abstained from voting. But Molemage and SunderedWorldDM both showed interest in playing a Winter themed competition without actually voting for it. But would you all prefer to go with the idea of a Winter theme for next competition, even though no one technically voted on it, or would you prefer that we hash out the tie between Time and Monsters instead? How I would personally handle breaking the tie here is by choosing which one got the most votes first, which in this case is time, but I am open to suggestions on alternatives if the latter option becomes wanted.

    Wow, thanks everyone! I was pretty pleased with the Destined, so it feels good to know that you were too.

    I'm okay with letting the tie stand. The only good way I could think of to resolve it further than vote distribution is another round of voting, and that will bog us down too much.

    For the next theme, I am also okay with doing Winter this time and looping back around to Time/Monsters next time.
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Congrats MoleMage, I’m very proud to share the tie with you and the Destined. Especially given I’d somehow flubbed the math in my head and thought you and SWDM were on top!

    Thanks everyone who gave their 2c during the process - especially you Requilac as you’ve given me some motivation to go back and take a second look at the power level and maybe adding a few more active features.

    I’m also happy to get festive with Winter for the next contest! Tis the season :)
    My 5E homebrew thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...omebrew-Thread

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    • Path of the Reaver Barbarian (kill all baddies with TWF!)
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SunderedWorldDM View Post
    First, thank you so much to everyone who voted for me! This was my first class contest, and to make the leaderboard was an achievement I will flaunt in my signature for a while to come. I can't wait to improve the Whitescourge until it's actually playable!

    Second, if I could, I'd like to change my vote to Winter, and I'd like to stay away from Monster as I feel there's a lot of existing content around that angle, but various interpretations of Chronomancy would be a lot of room to homebrew in. But, of course, I am but a drop in an ocean...
    Oddly enough, one of the main reasons I didn't want to go with the Time theme is because I felt it was too narrow. I would worry that there would be too many Chronomancer classes with virtually the same theme and purpose, but just with different individual mechanics that make them up. When I first heard the theme of time, very few classes came to mind except for the archetypal time traveler. There is some room for creativity for sure, but I just didn't feel like there is enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Wow, thanks everyone! I was pretty pleased with the Destined, so it feels good to know that you were too.

    I'm okay with letting the tie stand. The only good way I could think of to resolve it further than vote distribution is another round of voting, and that will bog us down too much.

    For the next theme, I am also okay with doing Winter this time and looping back around to Time/Monsters next time.
    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    Congrats MoleMage, I’m very proud to share the tie with you and the Destined. Especially given I’d somehow flubbed the math in my head and thought you and SWDM were on top!

    Thanks everyone who gave their 2c during the process - especially you Requilac as you’ve given me some motivation to go back and take a second look at the power level and maybe adding a few more active features.

    I’m also happy to get festive with Winter for the next contest! Tis the season :)
    It is nice to here that my review was helpful, I was worried it would come across as too harsh. Don't get me wrong, it has a lot of potential, but its lack of flavor description and active features made it undesirable to me. A couple of additional features or feature rewrites should do the trick.

    __________________

    Alright everyone, sometime within the next week, hopefully sooner rather than later I will hold the winter themed competition.
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Okay everybody I just recently created the 5th D&D 5e Base Class Contest: Time to Chill out. You can find a link to the submissions thread below. I hope to see you all there again in our new Winter themed competition.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...7#post23567807
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