So, Lets' talk about Black Widow.

[The Glyphstone]

In fairness, the blonde is because she has been a fugitive for the last two years and no self-respecting spy would keep the same hair color for long when you're on the wanted list.

Yeah. I was just a little amused they had her go from one dye job to another dye job instead of dropping the dye and having her use her natural hair color for the 'disguise'.

[Darth Ultron]

And they'll naturally have Iron Man replaced by his teenaged self when the other Avengers travel in time to drag him forwards to try and get present Tony to be less psychotic, and then the universe will hiccup because reasons and everyone will quietly forget that ever happened, just like in the comics

Well, your thinking too ''old badwrong " comics. You want the ''new cool" comics where the Armored Avenger is a woman.

Anyways, Black Widow?

Depends on what kind of movie they want to make. If they want to go all ''strong woman", they will need a goofy weak male spy(''The White Fly"). They might go full ''all woman movie" so her partner would be a techy spy woman(''the brown recluse").

[Friv]

Yeah. I found that especially jarring in Winter Soldier, where there was apparently a Captain America museum exhibit that was treated by the movie with near-religious reverence... in a world that has apparently had Captain Marvel and Ant-man for decades and now how Iron Man and Thor.

That doesn't surprise me.

From the point of view of the "average person" in the MCU, Captain America was an outlier for a very long time. He was this super-soldier who came out of nowhere in World War II, saved the world, and then died.

Both Incredible Hulk and Iron Man established that while other superheroes have been active in the world, they haven't been seen. The Hulk, despite being active for years, is just an urban myth until everything explodes at the university. Coulson walks into Tony Stark's office with a plan to conceal Iron Man's existence, and then Nick Fury makes fun of him for thinking that he's the first superhero. Scott Lang is shocked to see footage of Hank Pym as Ant-Man, because SHIELD successfully concealed it, and all evidence is that the world at large still doesn't know that Lang isn't the first Ant-Man.

It's not until the modern day that a combination of technology, Tony Stark's attitude, and an explosion in the number of powered people causes them to enter the mainstream. From that angle, Captain America's museum exhibit is still a really big deal, and Cap's back in action within a few years of the beginning of the new boom.

[Sapphire Guard]

A plot for a Black Widow movie is easy enough- with the leaks from SHIELD, some old enemy finds out about something she did and wants revenge, or some secret comes out that she has to protect. There. Done.

[Darth Ultron]

A plot for a Black Widow movie is easy enough- with the leaks from SHIELD, some old enemy finds out about something she did and wants revenge, or some secret comes out that she has to protect. There. Done.

Except the movie will be a prequel.

So more: Young pretty girl in Russia wants to be a ballerina. KGB grabs her and does the ''you will be killer agent, da". They send her to get the ''secret missile mirofilm " at the peace talks in Paris. She does her mission, but encounters say Agent Colson and he is like ''don't be evil". And then she becomes ''good"(ish) and helps defeat the KGB and joins SHEILD.

Maybe the movie will be a flash back...like Natasha is babysitting Haweye's kids at the farm house....and the kids are like ''tell us a story"...and then the screen does the ''wavy back in time effect"....

[Rogar Demonblud]

We already know that Natasha went rogue and left a bloody swath until Hawkeye was sent to kill her. He decided to recruit her instead. Phil might have done her intake interview, though.

[Peelee]

We already know that Natasha went rogue and left a bloody swath until Hawkeye was sent to kill her. He decided to recruit her instead. Phil might have done her intake interview, though.

Hold on, are you saying that Darth Ultron has no idea what he's talking about? Perish the thought!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Come on, Avengers 1 was like 20 films ago.

[The Glyphstone]

We already know that Natasha went rogue and left a bloody swath until Hawkeye was sent to kill her. He decided to recruit her instead. Phil might have done her intake interview, though.

I could see this as a movie. Do it as an Enemy At The Gates style spy vs. spy thriller, flashing back and forth between Natasha's training in the Red Room and her 'present day' hunt/duel around some European city with Hawkeye, who she assumes is trying to kill her.

[Kitten Champion]

I'd do the fairly straightforward story that I've seen done a number of times with Black Widow in the comics, someone from her past appears and she feels obligated to deal with it herself as part of her ongoing character arc towards personal redemption. With the narrative offering some exploration of her past relative to her current self, and the fact that she's pursuing this on her own being an in-story character choice while providing a meta-justification for this being her titular movie. Presumably Hawkeye and non-Hulk Banner would be involved too in secondary roles though.

As to why to make a Black Widow movie, you have the hottest female actor on the planet within the most popular movie franchise in the last 20 years. You can hem and haw over the specifics and criticize her overall characterization, but from a basic studio-which-wants-money perspective it would take a real effort to argue a Black Widow movie down based on its market potential.

Remember, this is a Hollywood which really wants to muster up a Scarjo-led action movie franchise and will green-light some really questionable comic book licensed movies.

[Kyberwulf]

Just because its Scarlett Johansson isn't really a good reason. There have been three attempts with her trying to be the main lead in a movie. The one where she is an alien. I don't think that on worked out to well. Lucy, again.. Not that great of a movie...I don't know HOW it got a sequel. Then Ghost in the Shell? Again, I don't know how it worked out. Not amazing I think.

Going off the weak character of Black Widow... I don't know if that is much of a reason to make a movie off her.

[Kitten Champion]

Just because its Scarlett Johansson isn't really a good reason. There have been three attempts with her trying to be the main lead in a movie. The one where she is an alien. I don't think that on worked out to well. Lucy, again.. Not that great of a movie...I don't know HOW it got a sequel. Then Ghost in the Shell? Again, I don't know how it worked out. Not amazing I think.

Going off the weak character of Black Widow... I don't know if that is much of a reason to make a movie off her.

Lucy was actually wildly successful financially speaking making more than 10 times the production budget, Under the Skin was critically successful but it was never a ScarJo vehicle so much as a limited release art-house film that couldn't afford to advertise off its limited budget, and Ghost in the Shell made money but not enough to justify a franchise.

However, that's irrelevant. Hollywood is about safe assumptions based off of easily-observed trends, she's high profile enough to make a movie around and Black Widow being "weak" is incredibly, deeply secondary to her being a household name globally. Studios have made pretty ambitious investments hoping to get something like the kind of instant recognition a character like Black Widow now has.

This is as risk-averse a decision you could make in the present market, it's why it's been announced and is in early pre-production.

[TeChameleon]

Black Widow being a 'weak' character is debatable, but she is most definitely a marketable character, which is probably the single biggest reason she's likely to get a movie.

Oddly, Natalya is one of the few characters I thought were made noticeably stronger by the MCU, rather than simply being done fairly well or, at worst, competently (... for the most part. Discussion for elsewhere >.>). Getting to see her tradecraft in action, rather than her simply being yet another combat gymnast, along with her 'red in the ledger' motivation being made explicit via a simple, punchy and reasonably memorable phrase, made her more believable and interesting, at least in my books. Add in ScarJo's surprisingly good 1000-yard stare at select moments, and you can believe that this is a woman who has seen some ****. And would really rather not see any repeats of it.

Speaking for myself, I'd really prefer to see her paired with someone rooted in the more fantastical elements of the MCU- thus my earlier vote for Thor or the Hulk. Honestly, her relationship with Banner (what happened to Betty Ross, anyways?) would serve as an ideal jumping-on point for him. Could lead to a rather entertaining scene where her and Banner are ambushed by rogue KGB leftovers, out to exact payback for whatever, and then the evil Russians having a nice collective "Oh, ****!" moment as they slowly realize exactly who they've caught in their... 'trap'. Maybe Banner's along as her tech guy, maybe they're just on vacation, maybe she's rescuing him because he's been kidnapped, whatever, but it wouldn't be hard to bring him in on a movie she's headlining.

And hey, getting some Hulk focus worked well enough for Thor, no?

[Tvtyrant]

I thought it was greatest generation, boomers, gen X, millennials (=gen Y), Generation Screw Everything (=Gen Einstein, =Millennials 2 the new millennium, =Gen Z, =The fourth babyboom, =the fifth greatest generation), Generation Puc.

So I literally forgot the Forgotten Generation.

Makes sense that something exists there, since greatest are supposed to be the ones who fought in WW2 and boomers the ones born after it.

(That also means Generation Screw Everything would be the sixth greatest generation rather than the fifth, unless maybe you ask the people who like to blame everything on millennials.)


We really should start just calling them names like the Beatles Generation, the MTV generation and the Pokémon generation though. Much more recognizable, and way more divisive.

The Forgotten Generation was the one before the GGs, Silent Generation is after, then boomers.

[HMS Invincible]

I don't like most of scarjo's non mcu movies, though I always give her another chance. I did like that movie where she plays the phone ai/Siri. Oh and she was in Sing, so her track record isn't terrible. Just not as good as you might expect.

Is there a link about black widow going rogue in the MCU?

[Rodin]

Lucy was actually wildly successful financially speaking making more than 10 times the production budget, Under the Skin was critically successful but it was never a ScarJo vehicle so much as a limited release art-house film that couldn't afford to advertise off its limited budget, and Ghost in the Shell made money but not enough to justify a franchise.

However, that's irrelevant. Hollywood is about safe assumptions based off of easily-observed trends, she's high profile enough to make a movie around and Black Widow being "weak" is incredibly, deeply secondary to her being a household name globally. Studios have made pretty ambitious investments hoping to get something like the kind of instant recognition a character like Black Widow now has.

This is as risk-averse a decision you could make in the present market, it's why it's been announced and is in early pre-production.

Ghost in the Shell basically had the problem where they tried to capitalize on name-recognition among anime fans while making the story generic enough to please mainstream audiences.

The result was that very few anime fans went to see a in-name-only adaptation and the mainstream fans showed their traditional aversion to generic Sci-Fi and also stayed away. So-so reviews did the rest. And even then, Scarlet Johannson was a big enough name draw for the film to make money.

A Black Widow movie wouldn't have the same problem. You have a ready-made audience in the Marvel fans who have proven they'll go to see any Marvel movie, no matter how obscure the hero. This is because consistent quality works, as even a "bad" Marvel movie is better than most of the dreck out there. The MCU also seems to have avoided the Sci-Fi curse, possibly because it's more associated with superheroes but more likely because franchised Sci-Fi does a hell of a lot better. There's also no danger of angering the original fans, as they haven't been annoyed at Black Widow's characterization in the MCU thus far and so you just pull from that.

It seems like a no brainer to me, and is certainly less risky than Captain Marvel will be.

[lord_khaine]

A Black Widow movie wouldn't have the same problem. You have a ready-made audience in the Marvel fans who have proven they'll go to see any Marvel movie, no matter how obscure the hero. This is because consistent quality works, as even a "bad" Marvel movie is better than most of the dreck out there. The MCU also seems to have avoided the Sci-Fi curse, possibly because it's more associated with superheroes but more likely because franchised Sci-Fi does a hell of a lot better. There's also no danger of angering the original fans, as they haven't been annoyed at Black Widow's characterization in the MCU thus far and so you just pull from that.

Yeah, whatever else you want to say, you cant argue with the consistency they have put out.
In all the movies that has been produced, only 1 were so bad i regretted watching it.
Thats a pretty good track record. And so i am going to go watch Marvel simply out of curiosity.

[Kitten Champion]

Ghost in the Shell basically had the problem where they tried to capitalize on name-recognition among anime fans while making the story generic enough to please mainstream audiences.

The result was that very few anime fans went to see a in-name-only adaptation and the mainstream fans showed their traditional aversion to generic Sci-Fi and also stayed away. So-so reviews did the rest. And even then, Scarlet Johannson was a big enough name draw for the film to make money.

Ghost in the Shell had a lot working against it of its own devising.

That they established everything in that movie around "we have Scarlett Johannson" speaks of how much confidence they had in her. Because as others have noted, it's quite apparent that GitS 2016 began more as an ensemble piece and was transfigured into a Scarjo vehicle pseudo-Superhero Origin movie with the rest of the supporting cast getting the minimum of screen-time for their increasingly thinly-sketched characters.

Ultimately, a Black Widow movie doesn't require a huge marketing push to sell itself. Many of the assets you'd want for the movie are already at your disposal, as you've got 20+ movies and each reduce the difficulties in implementing the next and the main character is already cast and well-established. You don't necessarily have to pay for elaborate new special effects here too, given the presumed emphasis on a more grounded spy-fiction part of the Marvel universe. Writing a narrative is really quite easy for the character as she already has a thematic centre (redemption) and a history you can easily work with that's at best been lightly alluded to through Black Widow herself and the Peggy Carter television show which may-or-may-not count as far as they're concerned..

In the end you have a movie that's not hard to set up, will probably cost less than an Ant-Man movie, and will probably make several times its production cost back even if it doesn't make Black Panther bank at the end of the day -- all while continuing to build the Marvel brand, in this empire of cross-media synergy - while satiating those who've been vocally asking for this for years.

[Rogar Demonblud]

(what happened to Betty Ross, anyways?)

Same thing as happens with every Designated Girlfriend character. It becomes very evident very quickly that they add nothing to the story while draining the budget of time and money, and they get quietly dropped because it's easier than turning them into a real character. That's pretty much what happened to her a few years after the Hulk smashed onto the scene in the comics, and she really only shows up for a bit after another reboot/retcon before getting once again shuffled off into storage. They tried to change that when they expanded the Hulk into a sub-universe of its own (Red Hulk, A-Bomb, etc) but even as Red She Hulk, she can't cut it.

[TeChameleon]

Same thing as happens with every Designated Girlfriend character. It becomes very evident very quickly that they add nothing to the story while draining the budget of time and money, and they get quietly dropped because it's easier than turning them into a real character. That's pretty much what happened to her a few years after the Hulk smashed onto the scene in the comics, and she really only shows up for a bit after another reboot/retcon before getting once again shuffled off into storage. They tried to change that when they expanded the Hulk into a sub-universe of its own (Red Hulk, A-Bomb, etc) but even as Red She Hulk, she can't cut it.

Mmph. I suppose that's why so many superhero universes feel weirdly pseudo-incestuous... you end up with the feeling that supers can only be with supers, despite the fact that there aren't all that many people out there who end up in a relationship with a co-worker, at least not a long-term one.

It'd be nice if writers weren't so... writer-y sometimes. Every time a new writer comes onto a title, they're desperate to make their own mark on a comic, and for whatever reason, trying to set up a new ship seems to be a favourite way to do it. Then we end up with things like **** Grayson, the town bicycle of the DCU, or Daredevil's genitalia of death (along with Punisher's, Cyclops', Hank Pym's, Hulk's, Spider-Man's...).

I really, really wish there were more comics out there like the first Jaime Reyes' Blue Beetle run- his supporting cast were fully-realized characters and just as much fun to read about as the super-types that kept rampaging through their lives (the scene of Jaime's mum reaming out Guy Gardner as he stammered and blushed is still one of my favourites).

[Kyberwulf]

See that's the same thing with Black Widow. They would be going off name recognition.

As someone pointed out, Ghost in the Shell was pretty generic. I feel that the movie they will put out with Black Widow would be pretty Generic itself. I mean, so far nothing put out in the movies make her stand out. I mean other then the fact that she is a female, and is "hot".

Which I think is kind of a horrible reason to put out a movie.

[Darth Ultron]

As someone pointed out, Ghost in the Shell was pretty generic. I feel that the movie they will put out with Black Widow would be pretty Generic itself. I mean, so far nothing put out in the movies make her stand out. I mean other then the fact that she is a female, and is "hot".

Which I think is kind of a horrible reason to put out a movie.

A generic movie with a ''hot'' person in it, is the basic Hollywood movie. It's even true of a Marvel movie. Take Thor or Iron Man: generic ''bad guy take over the world" movie with a ''hot" guy.

What can they really do to make a movie ''stand out''?

[Rodin]

A generic movie with a ''hot'' person in it, is the basic Hollywood movie. It's even true of a Marvel movie. Take Thor or Iron Man: generic ''bad guy take over the world" movie with a ''hot" guy.

What can they really do to make a movie ''stand out''?

By writing a good movie.

No, seriously. That's all it takes. I mean, consider the premise: Badass super spy who looks hot investigates plot that can endanger the world, stops it single-handedly and blows up the villains lair. Did I just describe the Black Widow movie, or a James Bond movie?

It all comes down to whether you get a good script. If we're talking Black Widow from the first Avengers film, I am entirely onboard. Black Widow from Age of Ultron? Much less excited.

[Darth Ultron]

It all comes down to whether you get a good script. If we're talking Black Widow from the first Avengers film, I am entirely onboard. Black Widow from Age of Ultron? Much less excited.

Well, most movies have a good premise...or idea. It is just the final product might not be too great.

But, Marvel has a good track record...like 20 movies and, what, maybe five ones 'not good'?

[Velaryon]

Rodin and Kitten Champion (among others) have already laid out why a Black Widow film is as close to a safe bet as Hollywood ever gets. The only thing I have to add to that is that DC has already proven via Wonder Woman that a female-led superhero film can work well and make money. There's a billion or so dollars out there with Black Widow's name on it that's just waiting for Marvel to come scoop it up. All they have to do is make a good movie and avoid stepping in any socio-political landmines along the way.

So what would a good Black Widow movie look like? Well, there a lot of directions they could choose to go: origin story, random adventure while she's a Russian spy, story of how she defected, random story while working with SHIELD, or something more-or-less present-day that happens during or after all her appearances in everyone else's movies.

I would argue that the story should tell us something we don't already know - if it's just a rehashing of the backstory exposition Natasha has had in other films, then it runs the risk of being lackluster - the movie may make money but won't be received well enough to merit more. And that's why I wouldn't do her origin story.

I think the best bet lies in telling the story of how Black Widow was recruited to SHIELD, while also setting up at least one new character and a possible future conflict. I'm light on specifics here though, because I'm not familiar enough with her comics history to suggest any good ideas.

[Kyberwulf]

I am not talking about female led anything. I am specifically trying to avoid bringing politics into this. Outright politics anyway. Trying to keep this focused to Black Widow.

See the thing is, to me Black Widow is just going to be another one of those movies. Underworld, Resident Evil, or other films like that. Where the hero of the story isn't really threatened, or challenged. I know people are going to bring up stuff like Bond. I don't want to see another bland character like that. I don't think that Black Widow won't be given the trust by people making it, to show that she is human. That she can actually be damaged.

Just a side thing. The whole, Marvel has a good track record. I have to disagree. They usually make eh movies to okay movies. Nothing stellar. I think they made something like,... only 5 good movies. The rest have been coasting off the good ones, or are subpar but given boosted value because "Marvel"

[Friv]

Okay, but do you have an actual reason to believe that? Black Widow has gotten the crap kicked out of her several times already in the MCU; she's hell on two feet against mooks, and she's very competent, but that hasn't stopped her from losing fights, or winning fights and getting hurt bad, multiple times.

Why would they change that fact once she's the lead instead of the co-lead?

[Dr.Samurai]

I think one of the best parts of Winter Soldier (have I mentioned it's my favorite yet?) is how vulnerable they all were. Seeing Fury get the drop on him twice, watching the Winter Soldier rip their only lead out of a car window straight into moving traffic and tearing the steering wheel out of the car, and of course watching the Winter Soldier fight Cap and Nat.

She gets the drop on him with the cell phone diversion and he still nearly kills her but for the little EMP disk thing she throws. Still doesn't matter because even when you think she's about to escape he shoots her through the parked cars and gets the jump on her again. Cap saves her of course but it's also not the first time he's almost taken Nat out (she refers to the scar she has from a previous attempt).

I don't see why she'd be a juggernaut in her own solo movie.

[Darth Ultron]

Underworld, Resident Evil, or other films like that. Where the hero of the story isn't really threatened, or challenged. I know people are going to bring up stuff like Bond. I don't want to see another bland character like that. I don't think that Black Widow won't be given the trust by people making it, to show that she is human. That she can actually be damaged.

Even for non super hero action movies it is common now a days to have bland immortal invulnerable characters. It is what ''people want to see". People just want to see ''cool CGI spam" and ''Cool one liners". And, that IS what people pay to see...so they are not wrong.

''Damage" is not a thing in current action movies. Current action movie heroes are not human. Try and think of the last movie that had a damaged, human action star.

And the above goes double for a female lead.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Die Hard movies always have a subplot about how much damage McClain is soaking. For female lead, try Atomic Blonde.