I think there can be trans characters

[Rynael]

No. At least of V we know that they don't believe in gender. They view biological sex as completely unimportant when it comes to social roles, as evidenced by a remark made in the prequel, where there's an inkstain on the place on the document where V's sex would be, and V dismisses it as unimportant.

V obviously does not have or need a 'gender identity'. Such things are for mere mortals to be concerned with. V is more busy with wielding arcane powers.

V is, moreoever, utterly incapable of recognizing gender markers. The mop that Roy uses to "disguse as woman" (which is only necessitated by gender roles, as Roy already was turned into a woman by the belt) is visible to those who place importance on gender as "feminine hair", whereas V instantly recognizes it as a mop.

It is rather unlikely that in V's culture, gender is even a thing.

They have (probably) two sexes, who are treated exactly the same in society, which means there is essentially only one "gender", but I don't think elves even have a word for it. They do not seem to have such a thing as grammatical gender in their language, after all.

It is probable that they have words for female and male, in order to be better able to explain to the little elves how more little elves are made, but it apparently doesn't matter anywhere else in their society.

For my part, I find the story's treatment of Vaarsuvius as inconsistent as Durkon's Scottish accent. And that's not a serious criticism, because I would no more criticize the Giant for not making Durkon's accent a perfectly-researched representation of real-world Scottish accents, not least because he's a fantasy dwarf from another world. But as an example of the inconsistency, Vaarsuvius always notices gender markers when formally addressing others, or being pedantic. They mostly fail when it's being used for comedy.

Sometimes, elf society is depicted in the way you describe; other times, like with Lirian, it does not seem to be. It's possible that, in spite of the way she presents, Lirian has no concept of gender, but I don't see any indications other than "other elves don't," which would be a circular argument in this case.

Personally, I think that the question, "is Vaarsuvius genderqueer?" ends up having a lot less to do with Vaarsuvius and more to do with the meaning of the word "genderqueer." We know how Vaarsuvius feels, there's little argument to be brooked there. If the consensus is that it was the wrong word, that doesn't much affect the purpose of the "genderqueer elf" line, which was that characters who present like Vaarsuvius, and who have V's perspective on the issues of gender, are much less common in major roles in fiction than characters with Elan's and Roy's.

[Riftwolf]

I'd really like to push away from this topic of conversation. this is going to some uncomfortable and borderline transphobic places that weren't the intent of this thread.

It wasn't the intent of my post either. I was just trying to find a way to work a trans character into the story rather than introduce a new character that, at this late stage of the story, would feel forced at best and tokenistic at worst. I apologise for any offence caused.

[ArkenBrony]

And making Minrah trans? Worst idea ever.

I know some people think that the only two categories that matter are "men" and "non-men", but actually, women also exist and matter, and if you take a much needed female character in a comic with an excess of male characters and say "surprise, she has actually been male all along, but she's trans so that's roughly the same, right?" that's not okay.

Really, really not okay.

Not only would it be insulting to say "hey, one minority is just as good as the other, right?", women aren't even a minority, but over 50% of the world's population.

If you make Minrah trans, you take away representation from women.

At this point in the story, with Minrah already being a somewhat important character, that would be a really nasty thing to do.

Would you suggest that the author should turn around and say that Roy identifies as white? No? Why not?



I agree with Riftwolf in that adding a new transcharacter would feel forced and/or tokenistic. The only characters that ever have their whole backstory explained shortly after they first appear are joke characters like the drow (who had Nale explain how he is not evil, which was apparently a lie, anyway), and you don't want a trans character to be introduced that way, do you?


So ... this comic is almost finished, why not ask Rich Burlew to include a trans character in his next webcomic?

wow... i don't know what to say to this... but saying you can't have a trans man because it's taking away female representation is horribly offensive. and comparing a trans character to someone declaring they're a different race is also bad.

there are definitely ways to have a character be trans without making it tokenistic or forced, there's an entire book left in the series, it's totally an option.

I look forward to the future when rich feels comfortable including trans characters, and don't blam him for being a little gun-shy, but hat you are saying, that I should be fine with 0 representation for likely the next several years of this comic is awful.

It wasn't the intent of my post either. I was just trying to find a way to work a trans character into the story rather than introduce a new character that, at this late stage of the story, would feel forced at best and tokenistic at worst. I apologise for any offence caused.

I appreciate your apology, I was more specifically talking about the posts trying to argue why being trans wouldn't work. but thank you

[Liquor Box]

For my part, I find the story's treatment of Vaarsuvius as inconsistent as Durkon's Scottish accent. And that's not a serious criticism, because I would no more criticize the Giant for not making Durkon's accent a perfectly-researched representation of real-world Scottish accents, not least because he's a fantasy dwarf from another world. But as an example of the inconsistency, Vaarsuvius always notices gender markers when formally addressing others, or being pedantic. They mostly fail when it's being used for comedy.

Sometimes, elf society is depicted in the way you describe; other times, like with Lirian, it does not seem to be. It's possible that, in spite of the way she presents, Lirian has no concept of gender, but I don't see any indications other than "other elves don't," which would be a circular argument in this case.

This may not be an inconsistency in the writing, but rather that the real situation is somewhere between "elves don't care about gender at all" and "elves care about gender as much as real world humans". If the truth of Rich's world was somewhere between, would that resolve the inconsistency you see? Might it be that Elves generally care about gender, but that V's own family do not (and are therefore outliers in elven society)?

[Emanick]

The truth might be as simple as “some elves care about gender and some don’t.” I don’t know what a society like that would look like, since gender is in large part a social construct, but it’s not necessarily an incoherent idea.

Rich has referred to V as genderqueer, by the way, so the term isn’t baseless.

And I’d like to second the argument that objecting to a female character being trans on the basis that there are too few women in OOTS already is pretty messed up. Women need more representation, yes, but trans folks have that problem times ten. More, really.

[Liquor Box]

The truth might be as simple as “some elves care about gender and some don’t.” I don’t know what a society like that would look like, since gender is in large part a social construct, but it’s not necessarily an incoherent idea.

I'm not as well versed in the OotS world as some, but do all elves come from a single society? If not, it may be that one elven society values gender, and another does not. I still think that elves generally caring about gender, but V's family not caring also fits.

[Emanick]

I'm not as well versed in the OotS world as some, but do all elves come from a single society? If not, it may be that one elven society values gender, and another does not. I still think that elves generally caring about gender, but V's family not caring also fits.

The implication is that they do, but I guess it’s possible that there are offshoots from the main “Elven Lands” with different traditions.

[Fyraltari]

I'm not as well versed in the OotS world as some, but do all elves come from a single society?

Yes

Honestly, I'm not even sure I've ever understood the point of human nations in the first place. I say, i's about time those humans got their act together and formed one world government, like grown-ups. You don't see the gnomes running around fighting wars with each other, do you? No, because they're civilized.

Unless you count the Drow as Elves, I guess.

[The Extinguisher]

The idea that its too late for a trans character to be introduced is incredibly shaky. Its really easy. The next time you need to introduce a new character. Make them trans. There, done. Nothing to it.

[Aidan]

The idea that its too late for a trans character to be introduced is incredibly shaky. Its really easy. The next time you need to introduce a new character. Make them trans. There, done. Nothing to it.

What matters more than should Rich introduce a trans character is : Does Rich want to introduce a trans character. After the arc with the Belt of Masculinity/Feminity, I think that Rich just doesn't want to try doing so after that mistake.

[ArkenBrony]

What matters more than should Rich introduce a trans character is : Does Rich want to introduce a trans character. After the arc with the Belt of Masculinity/Feminity, I think that Rich just doesn't want to try doing so after that mistake.

the point i'm saying with this thread isn't that he should, i'm saying that he can. he's stated he's concerned about it and i'm trying to say that it's worth a shot. I will keep saying I do not begrudge the Giant for his decision.

[Peelee]

The idea that its too late for a trans character to be introduced is incredibly shaky. Its really easy. The next time you need to introduce a new character. Make them trans. There, done. Nothing to it.

I remember being greatly amused one time by someone claiming that everyone in the comic could conceivably be trans, because it's fantasy baby!

I like that person. Makes good points. Quality forumite.

[The Extinguisher]

What matters more than should Rich introduce a trans character is : Does Rich want to introduce a trans character. After the arc with the Belt of Masculinity/Feminity, I think that Rich just doesn't want to try doing so after that mistake.

I generally disagree. I feel like pretty much any body of work is improved by trying to do the things that you should do, even if you dont want to. Taking a step out of your comfort zone for the sake of others is incredibly important especially when its so easy to do so

I remember being greatly amused one time by someone claiming that everyone in the comic could conceivably be trans, because it's fantasy baby!

I like that person. Makes good points. Quality forumite.

I dunno, sounds like kinda a jerk to me.

[ArkenBrony]

I remember being greatly amused one time by someone claiming that everyone in the comic could conceivably be trans, because it's fantasy baby!

I like that person. Makes good points. Quality forumite.

While it's a cool thing to be able to headcannon, and lord knows I do this a lot, it isn't a replacement for real representation

[RatElemental]

Am I alone in my opinion that there's no real imperative that the Giant (or anyone) include a trans character in their work at all?

I get it that good representations are cool to have, but that's just it, good representation. Not every writer has the experience, knowledge, or confidence to write a character of a certain demographic well. forcing the giant out of his comfort zone because he "should" have a trans character is more likely to result in a bad trans character if you ask me.

[Aidan]

Am I alone in my opinion that there's no real imperative that the Giant (or anyone) include a trans character in their work at all?

I get it that good representations are cool to have, but that's just it, good representation. Not every writer has the experience, knowledge, or confidence to write a character of a certain demographic well. forcing the giant out of his comfort zone because he "should" have a trans character is more likely to result in a bad trans character if you ask me.

I agree with that. I think that if Rich wants to make a trans character as a representation of that group, he can go ahead, but given his desire not to have a repeat of the belt incident, he is unlikely to do so.

As others have mentioned, in the stick verse it may just be a complete non-issue as there exists several ways to magically solve the problem. Therefore Rich may not feel that there is even a storytelling need to bring it up.

[Liquor Box]

Am I alone in my opinion that there's no real imperative that the Giant (or anyone) include a trans character in their work at all?

I get it that good representations are cool to have, but that's just it, good representation. Not every writer has the experience, knowledge, or confidence to write a character of a certain demographic well. forcing the giant out of his comfort zone because he "should" have a trans character is more likely to result in a bad trans character if you ask me.

You're not alone. The Giant can whatever story with whatever characters he wants. Not having trans characters may make it less popular amongst people who prefer there to be trans characters, but I don't think the Giant would be too concerned about that.

Especially true where with respect to all but a handful of characters, you would never know if they were trans or not.

[ArkenBrony]

a lot of you seem to feel the need to defend Rich. I get that. I don't want this to be a thread about what rich is doing wrong. he's doing an amazing job and this story is awesome. but just to set the record straight, rich is a good enough writer that he could definitely write a character to be trans in a way that didn't feel stereotyped, mean spirited, or token. he's gun shy about doing it, as he's said, for understandeable reasons. if rich didn't include a single trans character in Oots, i'd be a little upset, but it's not a problem specifically.

but I believe, 100%, that if rich decided to do it, he could. we can all talk about how hard it is to write about minority groups and that it's better to not try at all than to do a bad job, something i disagree with to begin with, we're talking about someone ho has told one of the most compelling and interesting stories I've ever read.

maybe you believe that it's not important to include a trans character, but if that is your opinion, i would kindly request you keep that to yourself, because to people like me it matters a lot.

You're not alone. The Giant can whatever story with whatever characters he wants. Not having trans characters may make it less popular amongst people who prefer there to be trans characters, but I don't think the Giant would be too concerned about that.

he probably wouldn't care about the popularity, but i'm sure that if he could snap his finger and have good trans representation, he would. not for the popularity, but for the import of doing it

[Liquor Box]

a lot of you seem to feel the need to defend Rich. I get that. I don't want this to be a thread about what rich is doing wrong. he's doing an amazing job and this story is awesome. but just to set the record straight, rich is a good enough writer that he could definitely write a character to be trans in a way that didn't feel stereotyped, mean spirited, or token. he's gun shy about doing it, as he's said, for understandeable reasons. if rich didn't include a single trans character in Oots, i'd be a little upset, but it's not a problem specifically.

but I believe, 100%, that if rich decided to do it, he could. we can all talk about how hard it is to write about minority groups and that it's better to not try at all than to do a bad job, something i disagree with to begin with, we're talking about someone ho has told one of the most compelling and interesting stories I've ever read.

maybe you believe that it's not important to include a trans character, but if that is your opinion, i would kindly request you keep that to yourself, because to people like me it matters a lot.



he probably wouldn't care about the popularity, but i'm sure that if he could snap his finger and have good trans representation, he would. not for the popularity, but for the import of doing it

I don't disagree.

I don't think he's obliged to include trans characters. But I agree with you that Roy's antics with the belt don't prevent him from doing so, and I suspect he would probably want to do so. I also think he would write such a character well (in a way most trans people would appreciate).

[hroþila]

The idea that its too late for a trans character to be introduced is incredibly shaky. Its really easy. The next time you need to introduce a new character. Make them trans. There, done. Nothing to it.

I agree it can be done, especially with a whole book still ahead. But it can also be done rather poorly, like in Mass Effect: Andromeda (from what I've read), so that it can come across as tokenism. On the other hand, even tokenism can help if representation overall is poor enough in other media, and if memory serves The Giant did say something to the effect that he'd sacrifice some of the quality of the writing (e.g. by having dialogue that is not exactly natural or whatever) in order to do good out of universe.

Still though, to reiterate, there's certainly enough story left to introduce a trans character and flesh them out enough that everything about them is well written, and it should certainly be possible to do the same with one-off characters if you write their scenes well enough.

[Lacuna Caster]

Qarr said that very few wizards ever reach 10th level. I think we can take it as stated that OotS is not the kind of insanely high-magic setting where fifth-level spells are used by all or most random merchants.

Solt Lorkyurg, for instance, could be the equivalent of the travelling salesman who drives instead of flies because it's cheaper.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that teleportation magic would be fairly expensive in OOTSverse, but as far as I can tell that's based entirely on the rarity of the service and 10th-level wizards being able to charge whatever they want. The teleport spell itself doesn't cost the caster anything, and the only drawback is a very small chance of arriving off-target. Compared against the risk of storms, piracy, landslides, etc. that's well worth running.

But anyway, yes- as Kish has pointed out, this is probably not a setting where spells like polymorph are trivial to come by for the unwashed masses. You might get a different impression from Haley & Co. visiting random shops to pick out magic wands like they were 4th of July twizzlers, but Haley is halfway to being a fantasy billionaire. This is not the reality of life for most people.

[KorvinStarmast]

Okey, let's clarify something here...

Back there in the beggining of D&D, regarding cursed items, the rule was not that you couldn't remove them, but that your character didn't want to stop using them.

The trick with a cursed sword, for example, was not that it was glued to the hands of your character, meaning he/she had to eat with the other hand and sleep holding the sword. The trick was that you character liked the sword and believed he/she was a better swordsman with it and that it was the best magic sword in the world and couldn't be convenienced in any way to stop using it. Unless someone cast "remove curse" on him/her. That was standard definition up until at least AD&D 2nd Edition, if my poor memory serves.

AD&D 1e had the same thing, and I have a character right now with a Sword of Vengeance (5e). Cursed sword, and since I have disadvantage if I try to use another weapon, I never switch. (I agreed to RP this as best I could with the DM, so that the party will have to realize I have a "thing" with this sword. So far, nobody in the party has gotten a grip on the hints I've dropped, that I am cursed. Now and again I go after an monster that injured me (needs a Wisdom save of DC 15) when it is tactically questionable to do so. So far, the "fighter is being" too aggressive seems to be the story.

Regarding the Belt? In a "real" world it wouldn't work like "you can't take it off". It would work like "you like that belt and want to wear it in all occasions. Of course, you can remove it to take a shower, but you will run to put it back as soon as possible, because the curse makes you truly believe that being of the opposite sex suits you better".

Interesting take, and I like how the RP fits into that.

Now, the OOTS being a self-aware fantasy parody, the Giant played the trope straight. That arc would have had to be played very different if Roy had been acting like liking the belt and the gender change.

Comedy often touches on things that people are not comfortable talking about. (See also the role of the fool/jester in some medieval courts ...)

Is it actually a point of discussion whether hormones can change the way people feel, think and act?

Plenty of stand up comedians cover that in their jokes.

Am I alone in my opinion that there's no real imperative that the Giant (or anyone) include a trans character in their work at all?

No, you are not alone. He'll write what he thinks fits. It was interesting to see that quote about how the fan reaction made him think.

[RainbowCloakBun]

The next time you need to introduce a new character. Make them trans.

You're glossing over the only real argument here against introducing a trans character, in response to said argument.

1. Say you make Alice. Alice once had chickenpox, but she's better now. It's not anything special, lots of people have had chickenpox.
2. Alice meets with the characters. Alice plays whatever part she plays as it pertains to the plot. Alice separates from the main characters.

While I'm sure that I could work in a way to offhandedly mention that Alice once had chicken pox, it is a difficult thing to bring up without it sounding contrived; you might bring up the order's Mummy Rot and she might say "Oh, that sounds far worse than the chickenpox I had when I was 7", but even that sounds contrived. Bringing up a proper framing context to allow Alice to state "I used to be a man" is difficult. The plot is moving forward, and will continue moving forward, and someone's state of being trans isn't something that relates to stopping Xykon, or persuading redcloak, or preventing the Snarl from demolishing everything. To introduce a trans character and properly take the time to establish the character as trans, the plot would have to slow down enough that the fact that someone used to be trans actually relates to the conversation that people are having in the panel. Seeing as we are building toward a massive climax and the final book is already going to be a phone book, I just don't see that as feasible.

That isn't at all to say that you can't introduce a trans character without it seeming forced, but the amount of effort it would take would slow down the speed of the plot, and if that's the only reason it was slowed, it would feel just as contrived. The Giant is a better author than that.

Am I alone in my opinion that there's no real imperative that the Giant (or anyone) include a trans character in their work at all?

Like the person above me, I'm with you. Discussing how people shouldn't be required to include a group in their work, though, tends to create a long, pointless argument, so I don't tend to bring it up except in passing.

[ArkenBrony]

You're glossing over the only real argument here against introducing a trans character, in response to said argument.

1. Say you make Alice. Alice once had chickenpox, but she's better now. It's not anything special, lots of people have had chickenpox.
2. Alice meets with the characters. Alice plays whatever part she plays as it pertains to the plot. Alice separates from the main characters.

While I'm sure that I could work in a way to offhandedly mention that Alice once had chicken pox, it is a difficult thing to bring up without it sounding contrived; you might bring up the order's Mummy Rot and she might say "Oh, that sounds far worse than the chickenpox I had when I was 7", but even that sounds contrived. Bringing up a proper framing context to allow Alice to state "I used to be a man" is difficult. The plot is moving forward, and will continue moving forward, and someone's state of being trans isn't something that relates to stopping Xykon, or persuading redcloak, or preventing the Snarl from demolishing everything. To introduce a trans character and properly take the time to establish the character as trans, the plot would have to slow down enough that the fact that someone used to be trans actually relates to the conversation that people are having in the panel. Seeing as we are building toward a massive climax and the final book is already going to be a phone book, I just don't see that as feasible.

That isn't at all to say that you can't introduce a trans character without it seeming forced, but the amount of effort it would take would slow down the speed of the plot, and if that's the only reason it was slowed, it would feel just as contrived. The Giant is a better author than that.

with the focus on pronouns, it would be really easy to do a short play with them to make a point. It could even work with a pre existing character. There are a lot of ways to do it well, and focusing on why it’s not worth the effort kinda sucks

[RainbowCloakBun]

with the focus on pronouns, it would be really easy to do a short play with them to make a point. It could even work with a pre existing character. There are a lot of ways to do it well, and focusing on why it’s not worth the effort kinda sucks

The point is that that short insertion of a character's state of being trans makes it feel contrived, as though the only reason that you are including it is to satiate people. That doesn't normalize the inclusion of trans characters, that exceptionalizes it, and makes it yet another instance where trans people are treated as separate from everyone else.

[ArkenBrony]

The point is that that short insertion of a character's state of being trans makes it feel contrived, as though the only reason that you are including it is to satiate people. That doesn't normalize the inclusion of trans characters, that exceptionalizes it, and makes it yet another instance where trans people are treated as separate from everyone else.

Right? I don’t understand what your argument is. I agree it’s possible to do it badly, but why focus on that, it’s possible to do it well too. It can be included in ways similar to how sexuality has been mentioned, where it’s reall natural and feels like part of the world

[RainbowCloakBun]

Right? I don’t understand what your argument is. I agree it’s possible to do it badly, but why focus on that, it’s possible to do it well too. It can be included in ways similar to how sexuality has been mentioned, where it’s reall natural and feels like part of the world

I already said what my argument is:

To introduce a trans character and properly take the time to establish the character as trans, the plot would have to slow down enough that the fact that someone used to be trans actually relates to the conversation that people are having in the panel. Seeing as we are building toward a massive climax and the final book is already going to be a phone book, I just don't see that as feasible.

That isn't at all to say that you can't introduce a trans character without it seeming forced, but the amount of effort it would take would slow down the speed of the plot, and if that's the only reason it was slowed, it would feel just as contrived. The Giant is a better author than that.

[ArkenBrony]

Gotcha. I don’t agree. I think it’s doable, and doubly think its worth doing

[hroþila]

It just occurred to me that this could actually be quite easy: just have a non-passing trans non-elf being referred to by their preferred pronouns.

[Morty]

An opinion I've seen about the Belt of Gender Change, in the game rather than the comic, is that it turns sex change into both a juvenile prank and a punishment for players. As in "you didn't check the item, now you're a girl, hardy har". "Gotcha" cursed items are a bad idea to begin with, this adds a layer of unpleasantness on top of that. Not that its appearance in the comic was mature and sensitive.

Other than that, I agree that a transgender character could be added to the story, and I'm not sure why there's such resistance against the idea. The Giant said that he has no current plans because of the episode with the belt, not that he won't do it ever.