Why are Miko's parents dead?

[Resileaf]

Although this is pedantic, doesn't that go against the whole 'self-taught' deal? XD

[hamishspence]

I'm suggesting that Rogues at least can be a good example of the "training begins in childhood, with mentors, rather than being entirely self-taught" class.

Same might apply to some Fighters. Knights, for example, usually begin as pages and then squires.

[Peelee]

I've only seen the 1990 movie.

But Mercedes Lackey's Take a Thief, in the Valdemar series, definitely used "dummy with bells" as the pickpocketing training device.

Huh. Though it was in that one. Apparently it was the second one, Secret of the Ooze. Can't find a clip, but the best description I could find was on TVTropes:

In one scene, Raphael helps Keno cheat his way through a near-impossible test: removing a series of bells from a mannequin while unable to see due to using a smokescreen. In complete silence. As soon as the smokebomb clouds the room, Raph's faint silhouette can briefly be made out, and only the swift movements of his arms can be heard, before the smoke clears and Keno is holding every single bell. The scene expertly demonstrates that while the Turtles may walk around in broad daylight, wear terrible disguises, and ham it up in stealthy situations, they are still trained and professional ninja. Not only that, but the scene also demonstrates that despite his attitude and arguments with Splinter, Raph still takes his training very seriously.

[Ruck]

You might notice that while Eugene and Sara tried to have Eric resurrected immediately after he died, it never occurred to Roy to tell him, "So when I get back to the world of the living, I'll get Durkon to resurrect you, so make sure you accept the resurrection this time." It would be well within Durkon's power.

Most people who die in the OotS universe stay dead. Miko was an orphan. She was semi-adopted into the royal family. Resurrecting her parents was never a goal she had. That's not an anomaly that needs to be explained.

Yeah, exactly. We don't know why her parents died and for all we know she may never have actually known them. Why would that be a priority for her 20 years later-- especially if she didn't know them to the point she didn't know where their remains would be or maybe even who they were enough to target them with a True Resurrection?

[hamishspence]

Huh. Though it was in that one. Apparently it was the second one, Secret of the Ooze.

While I don't remember the details of that one nearly as well as the first - one scene I do think is gloriously quotable in other contexts:


Splinter: Were you seen?
Leonardo: Of course not, Master Splinter.
Donatello: We practiced ninja.
Michelangelo: The art of invisibility.
* Splinter holds up a newspaper with a picture of them on the front cover*
Splinter: Practice harder.

[Resileaf]

While I don't remember the details of that one nearly as well as the first - one scene I do think is gloriously quotable in other contexts:

The quality of a movie can be judged by how quotable it is. *sagenod*

[Ruck]

The quality of a movie can be judged by how quotable it is. *sagenod*

That's why the six best movies of the last 30 years are, chronologically, Wayne's World, Billy Madison, The Big Lebowski, Office Space, Super Troopers, and MacGruber.

[Peelee]

That's why the six best movies of the last 30 years are, chronologically, Wayne's World, Billy Madison, The Big Lebowski, Office Space, Super Troopers, and MacGruber.

I was about to protest on This is Spinal Tap's behalf, but you just edged it out by a few years.

Also, you should see In Bruges. I suspect you'll enjoy it.

[Jasdoif]

I was about to protest on This is Spinal Tap's behalf, but you just edged it out by a few years.

Similarly, The Princess Bride is only a year off from the edge.

[Ruck]

I was about to protest on This is Spinal Tap's behalf, but you just edged it out by a few years.

Also, you should see In Bruges. I suspect you'll enjoy it.

Similarly, The Princess Bride is only a year off from the edge.

I almost said "The last 25 years" but I had to make sure Wayne's World, one of my all-time favorites, was included.

I've heard very good things about In Bruges. I don't make enough effort to watch movies like I used to but I need to check it out.

(Also, everyone should see MacGruber, which tanked at the box office but is indisputably a top-3 SNL movie.)

[Peelee]

I almost said "The last 25 years" but I had to make sure Wayne's World, one of my all-time favorites, was included.

I've heard very good things about In Bruges. I don't make enough effort to watch movies like I used to but I need to check it out.

(Also, everyone should see MacGruber, which tanked at the box office but is indisputably a top-3 SNL movie.)

In Bruges is dark. Like, seriously, it's really dark. It's the darkest comedy I've ever seen. It's also absolutely fantastic.

[Razade]

(4) they are unwilling to return.

This one right here.

The real answer of course is they're not important to the story. Even if they were alive, it wouldn't change their impact on the events that happened during the story. They're Schrodinger's Parents.

[Lacuna Caster]

Most people who die in the OotS universe stay dead. Miko was an orphan. She was semi-adopted into the royal family. Resurrecting her parents was never a goal she had.

I think this is probably the main reason, with a side order of Miko assuming their deaths are the will of the Gods somehow.

Conceivably, but that puts a rather dark spin on the origins of her believing 'everything is the Gods' plan'.

The real answer of course is they're not important to the story. Even if they were alive, it wouldn't change their impact on the events that happened during the story...

The OOTS storyline has gone some distance to emphasize parental influence on several major characters. I happen to think the importance of parenting is greatly exxaggerated, but as far as the internal logic of the stickverse is concerned, it's implausible that radically different rearing conditions would have no impact on Miko's development.

On a related note:

Spoiler: Scar

Show

Why did Gin-Jun stay dead? I'd assume his body would be brought back to the city for burial at least, and if he had any surviving family one might imagine, as nobles, they could foot the bill for a Raise Dead spell.

Also, how long were the Sapphire Guard AWOL? Did Shojo not, y'know, get curious about what his 15-year-old adoptive daughter was doing away from home all this time?

[Razade]

I didn't say it wouldn't have impacted Miko differently. I said it'd impact the story not at all. Miko needed to be the character she was to tell the story how it was. Her parents aren't really even mentioned throughout. They're not important to OoTS. They're important (in one sense at least) to Miko but this isn't her story.

Her parents being raised, not raised and why isn't a thing we need addressed. It literally contributes goose egg to the narrative. The fact she didn't have them is all we need to know to establish her life going forward.

[woweedd]

That's why the six best movies of the last 30 years are, chronologically, Wayne's World, Billy Madison, The Big Lebowski, Office Space, Super Troopers, and MacGruber.

Princess. Bride.

[Peelee]

Princess. Bride.

Swing and a miss.

the last 30 years are

I was about to protest on This is Spinal Tap's behalf, but you just edged it out by a few years.

Similarly, The Princess Bride is only a year off from the edge.

[Aeson]

To those saying that Miko could've had her parents resurrected, well, sure, at some point she probably could've had or obtained enough - or been owed enough favors by someone rich enough - to pay for their resurrection, but most likely what she knows of her parents is only what a small child would remember and a young orphan would be told or imagine, and by the time she might personally be able to pay for them to be resurrected she'd've had ten years or more to get used to them being dead. Bringing them back after they'd been dead for so long is a rather naive dream very likely to lead to disappointment when it turns out that Mom and Dad aren't the perfect people you imagined them to be but rather the imperfect people who they actually were.

More than that, they're ten years or more dead. Any worldly assets that they may have had are long gone - to their heirs, to their creditors, to whoever bought stuff at the estate sale, whatever - and they have no immediate means of supporting themselves. They also lack any particular connection with the modern world - the people that they knew while they were alive have presumably moved on with their lives or passed on, and the world they knew has changed. Bringing them back after they'd been dead so long would mean a lot of work to reintegrate them into society and at the very least someone would need to support them while they got their feet on the ground, because they'd need to rebuild their lives from approximately nothing.

Spoiler: Scar

Show

Why did Gin-Jun stay dead? I'd assume his body would be brought back to the city for burial at least, and if he had any surviving family one might imagine, as nobles, they could foot the bill for a Raise Dead spell.

Someone needs to be able and willing to pay before someone gets resurrected, and even Raise Dead costs 5000gp worth of diamonds plus whatever it is to pay the caster for his, her, or its time and spell slot. Having rich relatives is no guarantee of getting resurrected; they also have to like you enough to be willing to drop a small fortune to bring you back - quite possibly without any guarantee of recompense beyond whatever pleasure they, or someone they care about, may gain from seeing you back among the living.

Also, the benefactor's money isn't the only consideration, especially when inheritance and succession are involved. Do I care enough about Dad/Mom/Uncle Bob/Cousin Jane to not only shell out for a Raise Dead or Resurrection or whatever was needed but also to put off inheriting from or succeeding them? Do I dislike Cousin Jane enough to resurrect Uncle Bob just to keep her from inheriting Bob's fortune or taking Bob's title for another few years? Are there special laws in place governing who can have someone resurrected and why, or what happens when the normal progression of inheritance and succession is messed up by someone getting resurrected? The game rules don't cover these kinds of things, but - especially when dealing with large amounts of money or lines of succession to positions of power - these are things that a society in which resurrections are possible would have to be able to deal with.

[Darth Paul]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

True resurrection does exist, though, since Dorukan said he had clerics trying to resurrect Lirian.

I'm not 100% clear that a True Resurrection had to be used in that case, since the body was still around, the issue was locating the soul. I don't recall offhand how much time had passed after death, but I don't think it was beyond the reach of high-level clerics. I'm open to being wrong.

It's also possible that some type of house rule could be in effect since the soul in question still hadn't gone to the afterlife, but was right there and ready once a new body could be magically prepared. It was a one-in-a-million situation.

[hamishspence]

On a related note:

Spoiler: Scar

Show

how long were the Sapphire Guard AWOL? Did Shojo not, y'know, get curious about what his 15-year-old adoptive daughter was doing away from home all this time?

Going by War & XPs ages at start of book, Miko was 19 going on 20 at minimum, not 15 - since she's 5 years older than Hinjo.

[Darth Paul]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

True resurrection does exist, though, since Dorukan said he had clerics trying to resurrect Lirian.

I'm not 100% clear that a True Resurrection had to be used in that case, since the body was still around, the issue was locating the soul. I don't recall offhand how much time had passed after death, but I don't think it was beyond the reach of high-level clerics. I'm open to being wrong.

It's also possible that some type of house rule could be in effect since the soul in question still hadn't gone to the afterlife, but was right there and ready once a new body could be magically prepared. It was a one-in-a-million situation.

That's why the six best movies of the last 30 years are, chronologically, Wayne's World, Billy Madison, The Big Lebowski, Office Space, Super Troopers, and MacGruber.

Seriously??

[RatElemental]

In a world where the afterlife is real and speak with the dead etc and people do go to real paradises - why would someone who has earned their reward want to return?
That was, after all, a key factor in the whole Durkon and his mother and the money thing

I don't see where speak with dead fits in there. The spell doesn't contact the person's soul, it interrogates their body. You can ask it what it knew in life (or undeath) but nothing it has learned since then. mostly because it can't learn anything new.

[Lacuna Caster]

Bringing them back after they'd been dead so long would mean a lot of work to reintegrate them into society and at the very least someone would need to support them while they got their feet on the ground, because they'd need to rebuild their lives from approximately nothing.

Someone needs to be able and willing to pay before someone gets resurrected, and even Raise Dead costs 5000gp worth of diamonds plus whatever it is to pay the caster for his, her, or its time and spell slot... ...the game rules don't cover these kinds of things, but - especially when dealing with large amounts of money or lines of succession to positions of power - these are things that a society in which resurrections are possible would have to be able to deal with.

I think one can assume that someone capable of scraping together 10,000 gold pieces each would be able to support those people financially for a couple years.

To be fair, we don't really know the circumstances of their death- like Darth Paul suggested, they might just have gone overboard during a storm and got eaten by dire crabs- but we... could be looking at a situation where gender-flipped-fantasy-Batman is somehow indifferent to bringing back back Thomas and Martha.

It's a fair enough point on Gin-Jun, I guess. I'd be inclined to wonder if the Jun Clan didn't send a few assassins after either Miko, Shojo, and/or O-Chul, though.

Going by War & XPs ages at start of book, Miko was 19 going on 20 at minimum, not 15 - since she's 5 years older than Hinjo.

Spoiler: Scar

Show

I'm not sure that fits the implied timeline, which suggests that Miko was selected to become a samurai at age 13. (O-Chul also comments "you are a child!", which seems odd if she's visibly adult.) In any case, my point is it would be strange for Shojo to... not know what Miko was doing all this time, or for Miko to embark on a mission that Shojo didn't approve of or know about. One might imagine you'd Send to your daughter now and then and casually ask how her day went.

"Good, good, saw the blue mountains, entered goblin village, wiped out resistance. You? XOXO, Miko"

[goodpeople25]

To be fair, we don't really know the circumstances of their death- like Darth Paul suggested, they might just have gone overboard during a storm and got eaten by dire crabs- but we... could be looking at a situation where gender-flipped-fantasy-Batman is somehow indifferent to bringing back back Thomas and Martha.

On a surface look of that scenario I don't really see much strangness in a man whose eventual response to trauma was dressing up as a bat and beating up criminals appearing/being indifferent to having his parents brought back.

As for a deeper perspective taking in proper consideration of the characters involved.

Miko is Not gender-flipped-fantasy-Batman. So I don't really see the comparison.

[Lacuna Caster]

Miko is Not gender-flipped-fantasy-Batman. So I don't really see the comparison.

You're right. Batman never took a vow of poverty.

[hroþila]

I'm not 100% clear that a True Resurrection had to be used in that case, since the body was still around, the issue was locating the soul. I don't recall offhand how much time had passed after death, but I don't think it was beyond the reach of high-level clerics. I'm open to being wrong.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

But Dorukan had no access to Lirian's body because Xykon had zombified it, so Resurrection wouldn't do regardless.

[woweedd]

You're right. Batman never took a vow of poverty.

Isn't Batman generally pretty disdainful of authority?

[hamishspence]

Spoiler: Scar

Show

I'm not sure that fits the implied timeline, which suggests that Miko was selected to become a samurai at age 13. (O-Chul also comments "you are a child!", which seems odd if she's visibly adult.)

19 is a child to someone who is over 40.

And "samurai" is her social position, not her class. Plenty of room for her to spend 6-odd years as a Monk with the social position of Samurai.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html

[KorvinStarmast]

"dummy with bells" as the pickpocketing training device.

In the movie Harry in Your Pocket with James Coburn, Katharine Ross, Laurence Olivier, and Michael Sarrazin the bells training method was nicely illustrated.

[Lacuna Caster]

Isn't Batman generally pretty disdainful of authority?

Sure, and Batman is willing to lie but doesn't kill. They are, however both fond of improvised gadgets, tactically astute, relentlessly self-disciplined, often work alone, employ surprise and misdirection, were aristocrats orphaned at a young age, are driven by sublimated anger, defend the helpless, value a code, and are known for being blunt and abrasive. There are some valid points of comparison.

My point being that if- if- Miko's parents died under more than usually tragic circumstances, it is quite easy to imagine that redressing this injustice would be important to her. (And given that she apparently had no relatives or retainers to raise her instead, that's far from impossible.)

19 is a child to someone who is over 40.

Earlier in this thread we were arguing that coming of age happens much sooner in medieval societies. Okay, fine, maybe she stayed a monk for 5 years. Doesn't answer why Shojo doesn't know what's she's doing. Is she not 'a child' in the eye of someone pushing 70?

[Goblin_Priest]

Why doesn't every single person who die get resurrected?