Why are Miko's parents dead?

[Peelee]

Huh. It just occurred to me to wonder why they tried Resurrection instead of Raise Dead.

[Lacuna Caster]

After getting killed once through trying to do this... ...it makes sense that he'd think "I've already given everything I reasonably can - including my own life."

Durkon doesn't think so, and Roy didn't think so, and it's not like their future prospects are nothing but sunshine and daisies.

I'm not saying that taking the easy way out isn't understandable... but it's also a basically selfish decision. Which, given the stakes of the situation, does not reflect especially well on the late Lord Shojo. He basically took an opportunity to run away.

.

[Peelee]

Durkon doesn't think so, and Roy didn't think so, and it's not like their future prospects are nothing but sunshine and daisies.

Different people think differently. News at 11.

[Lacuna Caster]

Different people think differently. News at 11.

Yes. People who place primary value on the well-being of others make different decisions from people looking out their own interests. That's rather my point.

[hamishspence]

He basically took an opportunity to run away.

After being forcibly exiled from the Material Plane, unjustly, he chose not to respond to requests to return. Not quite the same thing as "running away".

Shojo is Chaotic Good - but "Good" doesn't mean "Perfectly unselfish" - it just means "Mostly unselfish".

[hroþila]

Huh. It just occurred to me to wonder why they tried Resurrection instead of Raise Dead.

I imagine that the cleric was en route to resurrect the teleporting wizard, who was well beyond the help of a Raise Dead spell, and thus the cleric may not have prepared it.

[Peelee]

I imagine that the cleric was en route to resurrect the teleporting wizard, who was well beyond the help of a Raise Dead spell, and thus the cleric may not have prepared it.

Unless I hear anything better or from the author directly, I'm headcanoning this. Fits really well. Thanks!

[hamishspence]

for someone who claims "Everything I did, I did for my people", it's notable that in his people's (and Hinjo's) greatest hour of need, Shojo either (A) didn't think there was much he could do to help or (B) assigned greater value to his personal comfort and well-being. Apparently, by Shojo's estimation, Miko did him a favour.

More likely, for a short period (a day or two?) after being killed, he was angry and resentful:

"So this is how I get treated after a lifetime of trying to do what's in their best interests".

and acted accordingly.


Possibly, if the CG afterlife has the same ability to "scry the Material Plane" he might have seen how badly the Siege of Azure City turned out, and regretted his refusal to return. We'll probably never know.

[Lacuna Caster]

More likely, for a short period (a day or two?) after being killed, he was angry and resentful...

Toward whom? Hinjo? The city? The entire material plane? I can totally understand him being distinctly annoyed with Miko, but plenty of innocent people besides her were in jeopardy at the time.

[Keltest]

Toward whom? Hinjo? The city? The entire material plane? I can totally understand him being distinctly annoyed with Miko, but plenty of innocent people besides her were in jeopardy at the time.

And again, what is he actually going to do? Besides get imprisoned pending his trial, I mean?

[Lacuna Caster]

And again, what is he actually going to do? Besides get imprisoned pending his trial, I mean?

I suppose we will never know, Keltest. I can only say it looked like Hinjo had some expectation that his advice and experience would be useful, but maybe he was off the mark. I don't know for sure.

The usual argument I've heard- and what is implied by the strip- is that Miko was in some sense to blame for the soldiers' poor morale and noble defections among the azurites, possibly leading to the hobgoblins' victory, because Shojo died under unclear circumstances. I would counter that to whatever extent the city suffered from Shojo's death, that was entirely his own decision. And to the extent that Shojo couldn't have helped from prison, Miko is not responsible for his actual crimes.

.

[Keltest]

I suppose we will never know, Keltest. I can only say it looked like Hinjo had some expectation that his advice and experience would be useful, but maybe he was the mark. I don't know for sure.

The usual argument I've heard- and what is implied by the strip- is that Miko was in some sense to blame for the soldiers' poor morale and noble defections among the azurites, possibly leading to the hobgoblins' victory, because Shojo died under unclear circumstances. I would counter that to whatever extent the city suffered from Shojo's death, that was entirely his own decision. And to the extent that Shojo couldn't have helped from prison, Miko is not responsible for his actual crimes.

So let me get this straight. You believe Shojo is morally compelled to come back from the dead and be thrown in prison so that he can participate in the defense of Azure City in some unknown manner you yourself can neither identify nor explain how he will be in a position to actually do this. Additionally, you do not believe his stated reasons for subterfuge (namely, keeping the paladins in the dark) and instead believe him guilty of legitimate crimes which you also cannot identify as being distinct from legitimate actions taken by the other Lord seen in the comic.

Im going to be honest here, you seem as confused as Miko.

[Resileaf]

I suppose we will never know, Keltest. I can only say it looked like Hinjo had some expectation that his advice and experience would be useful, but maybe he was off the mark. I don't know for sure.

The usual argument I've heard- and what is implied by the strip- is that Miko was in some sense to blame for the soldiers' poor morale and noble defections among the azurites, possibly leading to the hobgoblins' victory, because Shojo died under unclear circumstances. I would counter that to whatever extent the city suffered from Shojo's death, that was entirely his own decision. And to the extent that Shojo couldn't have helped from prison, Miko is not responsible for his actual crimes.

.

As if the nobles would have participated to the battle even if Shojo was still alive. They would have weaseled out somehow, no matter what happened.

[Lacuna Caster]

Im going to be honest here, you seem as confused as Miko.

Keltest, not so long ago you were arguing that Shojo did nothing legally wrong and the paladins would have a hard time removing him from office. Now you're arguing his imprisonment was so certain that he had nothing to live for and no wiggle room to influence events.

Maybe he'd have had some information about the nobles that could be used as leverage to coerce them. Maybe having him under 'house arrest' or 'pending investigation' would be easier to explain/lie-about than dropping suddenly dead. Maybe he'd have some general experience in military tactics and could improve their overall battle plan. I don't know. But again, Hinjo found a use for Belkar, of all people. I don't see him failing to find a use for a 14th-level aristocrat with Improved Paranoia.

.

[Keltest]

Keltest, not so long ago you were arguing that Shojo did nothing legally wrong and the paladins would have a hard time removing him from office. Now you're arguing his imprisonment was so certain he had nothing to live for and no wiggle room to influence events.

Maybe he'd have had some information about the nobles that could be used as leverage to coerce them. Maybe having him under 'house arrest' or 'pending investigation' would be easier to explain/lie-about than dropping suddenly dead. I don't know. But again, Hinjo found a use for Belkar, of all people. I don't see him failing to find a use for a 14th-level aristocrat with Improved Paranoia.

His arrest is absolutely certain. His conviction is unlikely, but theres still a period of time between the two where Shojo is out of commission.

And given that your entire claim rests on him being able to make a meaningful contribution to the defense, you may want to do better than "I don't know."

[Peelee]

Yes. People who place primary value on the well-being of others make different decisions from people looking out their own interests. That's rather my point.

More to my point, Roy and Durkon were killed by Evil undead abominations who were actively opposing their attempts to save the world. Shojo was killed by a Lawful Good Paladin who was his ally and subordinate. So having a different feeling on "I have everything including my life" is pretty understandable there, even ignoring all other aspects (PCs vs NPC, prime-of-their-lives vs coming up in the dice roll of old-age-death, etc. etc.).

[Jasdoif]

Maybe he'd have had some information about the nobles that could be used as leverage to coerce them. Maybe having him under 'house arrest' or 'pending investigation' would be easier to explain/lie-about than dropping suddenly dead. Maybe he'd have some general experience in military tactics and could improve their overall battle plan. I don't know. But again, Hinjo found a use for Belkar, of all people. I don't see him failing to find a use for a 14th-level aristocrat with Improved Paranoia.

I have pondered this before.

But it's an interesting question. What would happen after Shojo was resurrected?

Spoiler: Banana-Vision

Show

: Well, time to talk defensive strategy, I suppose.
: Uncle, did you miss the part about being placed under arrest?
: Do you "officially have time for this" all of a sudden, Hinjo?
: To have the magistrates put you in jail? Yes, I think there's officially time for that.
: How about to learn how to organize the entire city's defenses, including dealing with all the nobles, before Xykon arrives tomorrow? Half a million lives depend on your answer.
: Uncle, you're not seriously trying to guilt me into letting you get away with this, are you?
: "Guilt"? You're next in line, nephew. If I'm removed from this fancy chair, the responsibility for the nation goes directly to you. That is how the legitimate authority you and your fellow paladins are supposed to respect works, is it not?
: ....
: And everyone outside this room is innocent. Will Xykon think twice about killing them anyway?
: I'd be surprised if he thought once about it....
: So. How many lives are you willing to bet on your experience versus mine?
: ....
: Besides. Where's your proof for whatever you intend to charge me with?
: Are you kidding, Uncle? Miko and I both heard you.
: Right. Miko, who has so much respect for the law she jumped straight to an execution. And you, who in no way stands to gain the crown by deposing me. How well do you think that's going to stand up in court?
: Pretty well, after the diviners and Celestial representatives verify the statements.
: Ah yes, because there's not something more pressing like, oh, a giant army of hobgoblins led by a lich that our more powerful clerics should prepare spells for instead.
: I'm still obligated to arrest you.
: Of course, of course. But is there any sense in doing it before you can reasonably act on the arrest?
: You think you can just walk around like nothing has happened? You were killed, Uncle! People are going to talk.
: I'm pleased to see you're more perceptive than some other paladins I could name. But that's not a problem. Miko came here to warn us about the army, but it seems her mind was affected after her encounter with the lich.
: Oh she's affected alright....
: And since Mr. Scruffy doesn't hold a grudge, we're keeping her restrained until we can figure out what's wrong with her.
: But...that's dishonest.
: So? Deception isn't against the paladin code. Why, I've heard it only matters what you take--
: Uncle! You know full well we can't reference quotes that won't happen for five hundred more strips, not even in an alternate timeline!
: Oh. Right. Well Hinjo, it's up to you: Are you going to let a little thing like a decades-long policy of orchestrating actions behind my paladins' backs get in the way of saving our nation from a lich and his legion of lackeys?
: ...you are trying to guilt me into letting you go, aren't you?
: Well, obviously, but I wasn't going to say it before it looked like it was working.
: Twelve Gods help us....Fine. But I'm bringing charges once the city is safe.
: Fair enough.
: Why's he agreeing? He could get off easily.
: If he's smart, he'll insist both of them be allowed to present their testimony.
: ...Do I want to know why?
: They'll have to figure out what's wrong with Miko, before she can testify. Do you know how long that'll take? He'll be dead of old age before the trial ever starts.
: Shh!

[woweedd]

I have pondered this before.

That's brilliant Jas.

[Kish]

I know this isn't news to anyone, but the tenor of the exact same events seems totally different depending on how one phrases it.

i.e., there's, "Roy and Durkon were killed by Evil undead abominations who were actively opposing their attempts to save the world. Shojo was killed by a Lawful Good Paladin who was his ally and subordinate" which evidently comes from a position of being sympathetic to Shojo's not being willing to come back. There's also the equally accurate, "Roy and Durkon were killed trying to save others, Shojo was killed immediately after trying to lie his way out of trouble with two of the many people he'd spent decades manipulating like chesspieces, by one of them, and unless he was completely stupid had to recognize the attempted resurrection as an indication that the other one didn't want him dead and Miko had spoken only for herself in indicating she wanted him dead...though if it took him longer than two seconds to independently realize the latter of those he was pretty close to completely stupid already," which comes from a position of not being sympathetic to Shojo.

I wonder what Roy would think of Shojo's decision not to come back, if it was presented to him through a veil of ignorance (i.e., he knew all the events but not that it specifically involved the woman he'd called an "overbearing self-righteous bitch").

In any event, it appears to me that Shojo was fundamentally unwilling to recognize that it was wrong to manipulate other people like chesspieces, when he was doing it throughout his life, when he was telling Hinjo to "grow up" for objecting to it, and when he was deciding whether to come back to what would (in my and Peelee's opinion, if no one else's) have been a subordinate position as an imprisoned advisor rather than a ruler. That'd be the kind of severe moral failing that, in the absence of any repentance, would bar someone from an Upper Plane were I the writer...

...but of course, I'm not, so that doesn't really matter. Just felt like sharing.

[hamishspence]

In any event, it appears to me that Shojo was fundamentally unwilling to recognize that it was wrong to manipulate other people like chesspieces, when he was doing it throughout his life, when he was telling Hinjo to "grow up" for objecting to it, and when he was deciding whether to come back to what would (in my and Peelee's opinion, if no one else's) have been a subordinate position as an imprisoned advisor rather than a ruler.

Taking advantage of someone is neither Good nor Evil, inherently. What matters is what you take advantage of them for. Communicating clearly enough for Crystal to be 100% aware that Haley was about to trick her into walking into a pit of lava would have resulted in an immediate resumption of hostilities and, probably, more gnomish deaths. Haley is not under a moral obligation to sacrifice lives so that she can be sure Crystal understands the Terms and Conditions. Therefore, taking advantage of Crystal's tendency to follow and her inability to grasp complex rhetorical points in order to save lives is a Good action. If Haley pulled the same exact stunt in order to kill an innocent person and steal their gold, it would be an Evil action.

Maybe you can argue that it was a Chaotic action rather than a Lawful one, due to the aforementioned advantage-taking.

Using the same principle, "Manipulating people" is the same kind of thing - neither Good nor Evil, inherently.

[woweedd]

Using the same principle, "Manipulating people" is the same kind of thing - neither Good nor Evil, inherently.

Manipulating, no. Treating them as less then human, maybe.

[Morty]

I'm still not entirely certain what difference it makes why the deceased parents of the likewise deceased secondary character didn't come back.

[Lacuna Caster]

On this occasion, Kish and I are in agreement.

I have pondered this before.

Yeah, that seems like a pretty plausible scenario. You should, like write fiction. As a fan. (Is there a word for that?)

[hamishspence]

Manipulating, no. Treating them as less then human, maybe.

We know at least that Shojo's actions tended to improve quality of life in Azure City:

I have no idea what actions Shojo may or may not have taken prior to the beginning of the comic, because I didn't spend any time figuring that out. What I did was have a plot that required that guy on the throne to be pulling schemes behind the backs of the paladins while still serving as a patron to the mostly-Good OOTS, and thought, "Yeah, that sounds Chaotic Good to me. Write it. Done."

...

Stability is not always Good; instability is not inherently Evil. Shojo's instability increased the quality of life for his citizens, at least while he was alive; Tarquin's stability decreases the quality (and duration) of life for his people.

although he basically kneecapped his government in the process:

Did the rule of law have more of a hold in Azure City at the end of Shojo's rule—compared to when he took office—or less? Clearly, less. Before Shojo ascended the throne, it is highly unlikely that his father ignored the rules that he found inconvenient, encouraged the nobles to blame each other for his unpopular edicts via an elaborate ruse, seized citizens of other countries on charges he knew to be false, and snuck around making secret policy behind the backs of even his own most trusted advisors. You can't separate the fact that his government fell apart when Shojo died, because that was a direct result of him kneecapping that government over the years so that it depended on him, personally. Shojo was handed a Lawful system and made it more Chaotic than it was before, so that only his own personal scheming was holding it together.

[Resileaf]

We know at least that Shojo's actions tended to improve quality of life in Azure City:



although he basically kneecapped his government in the process:

That's pretty interesting. I had never known about that, and it really puts into perspective that even benevolent dictatorships can crumble quickly without the dictator around to keep it holding together.

[Lacuna Caster]

That's pretty interesting. I had never known about that, and it really puts into perspective that even benevolent dictatorships can crumble quickly without the dictator around to keep it holding together.

There's been some discussion about how sustainable Shojo's government would be, particularly if Hinjo, who has no obvious talent for political scheming, was supposed to step into his shoes. But I guess this thread has wandered pretty off-topic already.

[hamishspence]

In War & XPs, the bonus strip where Shojo talks to Eugene, makes it clear that Shojo's goal is to turn Hinjo into someone less idealistic, more cynical, and more capable of scheming, and thus, from Shojo's perspective, better able to run the city.

[Ruck]

Manipulating, no. Treating them as less then human, maybe.

This reads like you're saying "No, manipulating people is not Neutral, but treating them as less than human is," but I'm sure that's not what you meant.

[hamishspence]

This reads like you're saying "No, manipulating people is not Neutral, but treating them as less than human is," but I'm sure that's not what you meant.

The idea appears to be that "Manipulating" has no alignment but "treating people as less than human, is Evil".

[KorvinStarmast]

I am going to respond to the title question.
Why are Miko's parents dead?

The narrative imperative. In order for her to be both related to Shojo and Hinjo, but not be someone born of privilege, and to multiclass Monk/Paladin, the convenient trope of "lost parents at an early age, was orphaned, and then ..." was very useful to fit her into the story in ways that (1) made her personally loyal to Shojo and (2) established a sort of tension between her and Hojo that wasn't manufactured but rather felt natural. This made for a great set up, and sense of wrongness from a loyal servant, when her feelings of betrayal over Shojo's choices drove her to murder.

I don't want to rain on the parade of the previous five pages, but given the state of the strip at the time of her becoming one of the dramatis personae, a more complicated backstory wasn't necessary.