Refactored 3e Spell Lists

[PairO'Dice Lost]

My take is that these generally seem like lower-level logical extensions of the contingency spell (although being able to plug in arbitrary divination effects sounds perfectly fair), with Symbol of X just applying the contingency to an item or surface and/or adding permanency.

Contingency being a beneficial triggered effect is quite the outlier, with almost everything else being triggered traps or wards or explosions, but I can see where you're coming from. Perhaps instead of having a separate school for symbol-related contingent magic, you could just make that a modifier in your metamagic or crafting school, à la Earthbound Spell or Craft Contingent Spell, and leave the appearance to flavor.

Then you can apply triggered spell or whatever to a [Force] spell to get explosive runes, a stasis-related spell to get sepia snake sigil, hold person or the like to get ghoul glyph, any spell to get glyph of warding, and so forth, and it can be flavored as a rune/sigil/glyph if desired or something like a huge holy symbol, pulsing orb of light or similar if the caster so desires.

If merging that with a general item-enchantment/item-crafting school makes sense, I'd be quite happy to do that. Is there a particular 2e resource you'd recommend looking at?

Hmm, it's been a while, but I believe Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, Tome of Magic, and Player Option: Spells & Magic have all the relevant item enchantment rules. I can pull out my books and look around if not.

* Possibly flesh out rules for leadership, followers & mass battles.

* Conjuration needs fleshing out, and Enchantment needs tweaks for dialog/effect size.

I'd say these two go together, since if you're going to summon or compel a bunch of followers you might as well have them use similar systems, and if multiple PCs start doing that then you start reaching group sizes where mass combat rules are necessary.

My thinking at the moment is that I'll need to work out the bestiary system before I properly work out polymorph and other transmutation spells, and design it with an aim toward being more "magical genetic engineering" than something you can easily whip out in mid-battle. Necromancy might be similar.

Summon demon in 1e with its random demon generation tables in the DMG and astral construct in 3e with its build-your-own-minion menus would be good resources for something like this.

[Lacuna Caster]

So, on the topic of Enchantment spells...

What I have gathered from other games is that mind-control effects can be problematic on a 'meta' level, since in principle they allow one PC (or the GM) to seize either indefinite control of another PC and/or rewrite their beliefs and motivations, and a goodly number of players just don't like that regardless of how much genre precedent or fictional justification there might be. This came up briefly in playtesting for Cosmic Zap and RE delves into the topic a bit here while discussing Champions Now. (The rules for Burning Empires also have some special restrictions on Psychology to avoid what the authors refer to as a 'social contract time bomb'- in essence, all the heavyweight mind-warping actions require an invitation from the subject.)

I'm... not entirely clear on how to solve or allow for that in a D&D-esque context. It looks as though in most games a general 'gentleman's agreement' to not shiv other PCs in the back and by extension to limit Dominate spells to the monsters tends to rule the day, but I don't want to limit the PCs to necessarily all being on the same team, or having 100% congruent motivations 100% of the time even if they nominally are. What I've jury-rigged for the moment are some 'feedback' effects, whereby an Enchantment spell that the victim resists allows them to access the caster's mind, and the more power the caster exerts the worse the feedback can be. But this might not be the right solution and I'm happy to take suggestions. (No pun intended.)

GENERAL ENCHANTMENT OPTIONS:

All Enchantment spells last 1 minute/level by default and allow will saves.

You may optionally make a brief but cogent dialog check to back up your intent.
  Success:  Save DC increased by 4
  Failure:  Save DC decreased by 2, +5 to Feedback chance

Potency +1:
  +1 spell level, +2 to social skill tests, -5 to resistance.

Subtlety +1:
  +1 spell level, re-roll save at +5 DC to prevent victim noticing.
  -20 to Feedback chance from victim.

Type of Victim:
  Humanoid +0
  Beast    +1
  Monster  +2

Duration:
  1 minute/level: +0
  1 hour/level:   +1
  1 day/level:    +2
  indefinite:     +3


ENCHANTMENT SPELLS

Sleep (level 1):
  Deals 4d6 'virtual' fatigue damage to the subject.
  If sufficient to KO, victim falls asleep for duration.
  Otherwise no actual fatigue damage is dealt.
  Go Deeper: Effects can stack by increasing spell level.

Inception (level 1):
  Allows you to communicate with subject in a dream.
  Sleeping victims suffer a -10 resistance penalty to other enchantments.
  The caster's vulnerability to feedback increases by 10.
  Dialogs that occur during a dream take place in a surreal landscape-
  arguments and counterarguments shape the perceived dreamscape.
  Go Deeper: Effects can stack to multiply penalties.

Compulsion (level 1):
  Use a dialog check/scene to convince the victim to do or believe something.
  Gain a +5 bonus to social skill tests for this purpose.
  Usual dialog modifiers for relationships and terms apply.
  In the case of attempting to modify a belief:
    Slight modification:    +0  resistance & feedback
    Moderate modification:  +5  resistance & feedback
    Drastic modification:   +10 resistance & feedback
    Flat-out impossibility: +15 resistance & feedback
  If you win the dialog, no compromise is required.
  If the dialog is failed, the spell counts as resisted for Feedback.

Idiocy (level 2):
  Apply -2 penalty to Int/Wis/Cha, or -4 to single attribute.
  Reduces chance of Feedback from victim by 50.

Clarity (level 2):
  Apply +2 bonus to Int/Wis/Cha, or +4 to single attribute.
  Counters other enchantments (see below.)

Fascination (level 1):
  Daze for 1 round, draws attention to chosen point until it wears off.
  If victim is drawn to a person, improves disposition by 1 step.

Fear (level 3):
  Victim rolls to save twice-
  one fails: -2 to saves, attacks & skills, -1 to damage (shaken.)
  both fail: as above, also flees in panic, 50% chance to drop items.

Courage (level 3):
  +2 to saves, attacks & skills, +1 to damage.
  +5 to morale checks vs. fear or stress.

Holding (level 3):
  Subject takes no actions and make no attempt to defend themselves.
  Can be treated as paralysed for most purposes.
  May attempt fresh save each turn.

Confusion (level 3):
  Oscillates between emotional states and half-real perceptions.
  Produces random effects each round:
    30% chance to attack nearest target
    30% chance to babble incoherently
    30% chance to flee from danger
    10% chance to behave normally
  May attempt fresh save each turn.

On Counterspells and Feedback:

Spoiler

Show

Victims who succumb to an enchantment spell do not immediately realise they are being manipulated, but may well do so after the spell wears off, depending on how uncharacteristic their behaviour in the interlude was.

Any contradictory enchantments in place grant the victim a +2 save bonus per spell level. At the caster's discretion, contradictory enchantments may be dispelled when a new enchantment is applied. Idiocy counters Clarity and vice versa, Courage counters Fear and vice versa, and Clarity, Holding or Sleep generally counter everything, as does Compulsion if phrased correctly.

If a victim resists an enchantment spell, they automatically notice they were being manipulated, and may have a chance to reflect Feedback on the caster. Roll 1d100, add 10 per spell level and any bonus for casting Enchantment spells the victim may have.
Feedback Results:

• <=25 no other effects.
• 26-75 the victim recognises the caster if either currently visible or known to them firsthand.
• 76-125 the victim also gains the full benefit of a Discern Mind spell upon the caster. (This counts as 'firsthand knowledge' for future purposes.)
• >=126 the victim may freely cast any known Enchantment spell, or a Compulsion, of equal spell level, directed at the caster- and they automatically fail any save.

[Lacuna Caster]

Contingency being a beneficial triggered effect is quite the outlier, with almost everything else being triggered traps or wards or explosions, but I can see where you're coming from. Perhaps instead of having a separate school for symbol-related contingent magic, you could just make that a modifier in your metamagic or crafting school, à la Earthbound Spell or Craft Contingent Spell, and leave the appearance to flavor.

Then you can apply triggered spell or whatever to a [Force] spell to get explosive runes, a stasis-related spell to get sepia snake sigil, hold person or the like to get ghoul glyph, any spell to get glyph of warding, and so forth, and it can be flavored as a rune/sigil/glyph if desired or something like a huge holy symbol, pulsing orb of light or similar if the caster so desires.

That would be the idea, yes.

I'd say these two go together, since if you're going to summon or compel a bunch of followers you might as well have them use similar systems, and if multiple PCs start doing that then you start reaching group sizes where mass combat rules are necessary.

I'm not sure. The stereotypical undead army would seem to require that kind of handling, sure, but what I have sketched out so far implies a more one-on-one relationship with typical summonlings whom you bargain with for services. Mass battle rules would be more intended for the small army of low-level followers a high-level knight or noble might be able to field, which I gather I has some precedent in older editions.


Rough outlines for Divination and Illusion:

True Seeing (L0)
  60 ft range, concentration, up to 1 min/level.
  Blocked by 3 feet wood/dirt, 1 ft stone, 1 inch metal or lead sheet.
  Increases in strength each round.
  Round 1:  Grants +5 to saves vs. illusion, ignores darkness/blinding effects.
  Round 2:  Grants +10 to identify (but not bypass) illusions in area.
  Round 3:  Grants +15 to illusion saves if concentrated at single point.
  If failed, cannot attempt again for 24 hours.
  Previously identified illusions grant +5 to the save, however.

Discern Matter (L1)
  Extends True Seeing, penetrates through 2x normal barriers.
  Provides +10 bonus to perception & disarm attempts for traps & secret doors.

Discern Life (L1)
  Extends True Seeing, reveals if subjects are healthy, sickly, undead, or inanimate.
  Provides +10 bonus to Craft[Healing] tests to diagnose poison/disease.

Discern Aura (L1)
  Extends True Seeing, reveals magic auras and alignment of creatures and objects.
  Provides +10 bonus to skill checks to discern specific abilities or subject-type.

Discern Mind (L2)
  Extends True Seeing.
  Round 1:  Reveals presence of intelligence.
  Round 2:  Reveals mood, intention and lies, and most intelligent person present.
  Round 3:  Reveals intelligence, and detailed thoughts of single target.
  Note:  Stage 3 allows for target's language to be understood.
  Note:  A failed save at stage 3 allows for Feedback as for an Enchantment spell.

Location (L2)
  400 ft +40/level, 1 min/level, 1-round casting.
  Gives direction of a particular creature, object or place.
    Will save bonuses-
      +10 if only vaguely known
      +5  if secondhand
      +0  if acquainted
      -5  if familiar
      -2  if you have likeness
      -4  if you have possession
      -10 if you have body part
  (Use metamagic to extend/reduce range/power.)
  (Use metamagic to discern location and/or best route.)
  If failed, cannot attempt again for 24 hours.

Scrying (L3)
  Extends Location.
  Creates hearing + seeing sensor at point if successful.

Legend (L3)
  Extends Location.
  Grants information on subject's past, not position.
  (Varying degrees of detail, depending on degree of success.)

Foresight (L0)
  +2 bonus to single test.  1 minute or until discharged.
  +1: +10 bonus to single attack before next round.
  +1: +2 bonus to single test or AC, cumulative.
  +?: instant warning of impending dangers, never surprised, +2 AC/reflexes?
  It would be nice to have some way to work in actual predictions?

IMAGE (level 1)
  Create a visual figment within 4 10-ft cubes, +1 10-ft cube per level.
  Lasts for concentration duration.
  Will save allows disbelief, fresh test if interacted with.

Blended -1:
  Illusion must blend with natural context of area or terrain.

Item Only (level 0):
  Illusion limited to single object of less than 5-ft dimensions.

Sound +1:
  Introduce noise.  (As level-0 cantrip, allows voice-projection.)

Tactile +1:
  Add touch, heat and smell.  No fresh save for interaction.

Dweomer +1:
  Confers magical aura, chance to fool scrying/detection magic.
  Increases scrying/true-seeing DC by 5- failure gives false result.  Can stack.

Expanded +1:
  Expand area by 20-ft cube per level.  Can stack.

Persistent +2:
  Lasts 1 minute/level, no concentration required, allows trigger/scripting.

Permanent +3:
  Lasts indefinitely.


SEEMING (level 0):
  Create mirror-image of self.  Stays within 5 feet.
  If attacked, aggressor has 50% chance to pick the image.
  Image’s AC is 10 + size modifier + dex bonus.
  Will save allows disbelief if interacted with, disappears if attacked.
  Lasts 1 minute/level + concentration.

Disguise +1:
  Modify image to resemble another humanoid.  (Adds +10 to disguise checks.)
  Extra uses allow imitation of non-humanoids, then aberrations, etc.

Multiple +1:
  Create an additional image.  Aggressors must select target at random.

Persistent +2:
  Image no longer disappears on interaction.
  Lasts 1 hour/level, can apply to other subject.


OBSCURE (level 1)
  Blurs and attenuates the subject's or item's visible outline.
  Grants 20% miss chance, +2 touch AC.
  Permits subject fresh save if an attack, spell or physical interaction is made.
  Lasts 1 minute/level.

Invisible +1:
  Grants total concealment, including vs. darkvision.
  50% miss chance for attacks, cannot be pinpointed.

Inaudible +1:
  Suppresses sound as well as visibility (including tremorsense.)

Sphere +1:
  Affects all creatures in expanded 10-ft-radius.

Persistent +2:
  No longer expires on attacks, spells, or physical interactions.


SHADOW SPELL (level 0)
  Replicate a Summoning or Evocation spell of up to 1 level higher.
  The spell replicated must be chosen at the time of preparation unless cast spontaneously.
  If effects are sufficient to 'kill' a creature and a belief save is failed, the creature is stunned/falls prone for 1d4 rounds.
  Effects are only 10% real (10% real, 10% chance of effect, 10% HP, etc.)

Potency +1:
  Increase maximum spell level imitated by 1.
  All effects are 10% more real, stun duration increases 1 round.  Can stack.
  Effects sufficient to stun have cumulative 5% chance to drop subject to 0 HP.

[Lacuna Caster]

What I have gathered from other games is that mind-control effects can be problematic on a 'meta' level, since in principle they allow one PC (or the GM) to seize either indefinite control of another PC and/or rewrite their beliefs and motivations...

...Ah, wait wait wait. You can just use metagame resources to solve the metagame problem. Let the PCs accumulate Inspiration from vows and beliefs and so on, and allow them to spend it on dice rolls etc. in such a way that you can always shut down mind control by spending a point or two. The NPCs and random critters don't generally get Inspiration, so enchantment works normally on them, but only works on the PCs if the players are, uh, 'into it', so to speak.

Of course, if your Inspiration hits zero, you're vulnerable to mind-control, bleeding out, unpleasant crits, et cetera, but in that case... the onus is on the player to not hit zero.

Conjuration rules are sorta done, profane and holy domains sorta done, very very loose bestiary rules-sketch for animals and undead plus order/nature domains in place- I'll probably leave out celestials and inevitables, etc. for the moment. That mostly leaves thaumaturgy and some fleshing out of feat-chains and skill options after that.

[Indigo Knight]

They're just plain stupid as rigid categories -- they don't withstand even the slightest application of logical scrutiny.

Therefore, the wise game writer does not attempt to apply logical scrutiny to the schools of magic, and instead treats them as thematic labels with very few concrete points of mechanical import.

So, maybe, the solution is to grid chart a mechanic table that group spells by effects - school one is debuffing, school two is buff humanoids, school three is controlling ground stats, school four is radiant keyword, etc. Also, opposing and overlapping schools.


Also, there are 7 or 8 lines of conditions that I usually refer to:

Wounds or bleeding.
Exhaustion.
Compulsion.
Fear.
Mobility.
Vitality (like poison and diseases).
Stun.

You mentioned those in your first post, and I think that these have a correlation to how (or at least should) spells are grouped.

Technically speaking Raise Dead is also a conjuration spell at the moment,

not if it requires the presence of corpses


Personally, I think that the dispel magic spell needs to be broken down to components, as it has way too many applications.

For things like domination magic or summoning magic there was a suggestion by someone to use 'maintain concentration' as a resource. So the caster gains a different entity with it's own actions but loses his own actions.




You know - This looks very close to what I was trying to build a while back. Have you read it by chance?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm not sure. The stereotypical undead army would seem to require that kind of handling, sure, but what I have sketched out so far implies a more one-on-one relationship with typical summonlings whom you bargain with for services. Mass battle rules would be more intended for the small army of low-level followers a high-level knight or noble might be able to field, which I gather I has some precedent in older editions.

The armies of followers do have precedence, yes, and unless you put some artificial caps on them you can also have armies of summonlings or armies of dominated creatures. Which is why it would be nice to unify the mechanics such that "control 20 soldiers on the battlefield," "control 20 followers in a thieves guild," "control 20 summoned demons on the battlefield", and "control 20 dominated sleeper agents in the city government" all work roughly the same way. You're already partway there by modifying DCs based on social skill checks and being able to alter beliefs and motivations, so you might as well go all the way with that.

...Ah, wait wait wait. You can just use metagame resources to solve the metagame problem. Let the PCs accumulate Inspiration from vows and beliefs and so on, and allow them to spend it on dice rolls etc. in such a way that you can always shut down mind control by spending a point or two. The NPCs and random critters don't generally get Inspiration, so enchantment works normally on them, but only works on the PCs if the players are, uh, 'into it', so to speak.

Of course, if your Inspiration hits zero, you're vulnerable to mind-control, bleeding out, unpleasant crits, et cetera, but in that case... the onus is on the player to not hit zero.

I definitely think that this Inspiration system (which I would rename Conviction, actually, since it's more about firmness of belief than morale) is a better way to go than introducing a "feedback" mechanism only for Enchantment spells--particularly since the "make your save and see the caster" thing is more typical for Divination (Scrying) spells than Enchantment spells.

I wouldn't make it a PC-only thing, though; a sworn bodyguard, crazed cultist, or the like can be just as firm in their convictions as a PC can, and having a notable difference in the difficulty of enchanting Bob the Town Guard (who's only there for his paycheck and doesn't have super strong feelings about miscreants getting past him) versus Joe the Royal Guard (who is utterly devoted to his Queen and would die sooner than be turned against her) is better for worldbuilding than "these five random adventurers, and possibly their archnemesis, are inexplicably much harder to enchant than everyone else in the world."

What might be better is having 3-5 levels of Conviction, in the same way that there are 5 standard NPC attitude categories, and assigning different Enchantment difficulties to each. Herd animals, dimmer monsters, and cowards might be Spineless (the lowest rating), having large save penalties to being Enchanted and being easier to manipulate once compelled; fanatical religious characters, powerful solitary monsters, and heroes might be Unshakeable (the highest rating), being nearly impossible to compel unless you target a particular weak point like taking their spouse hostage or convincing them that their friends have betrayed them. PCs could then choose their rating while NPCs are assigned one based on personality--and you might find PCs who choose something below Unshakeable, indicating that they feel their PC isn't as firm in their convictions and they're okay with being Enchanted at some point.

So, maybe, the solution is to grid chart a mechanic table that group spells by effects - school one is debuffing, school two is buff humanoids, school three is controlling ground stats, school four is radiant keyword, etc. Also, opposing and overlapping schools.

Whether you believe that the schools hold up logically or not--and I firmly believe that they do, and that people who believe that they don't are looking at the bad spell assignments made in late 3e by lazy devs rather than at the lore and themes behind the schools themselves--the schools are, at the end of the day, a thematic grouping rather than a mechanical one. Keyword "schools" already exist in the form of descriptors, and combat roles make bad schools because not only are those incredibly restricting but it's much more common to have "multi-threat" spells that perform two or three different roles in combat (several spells can do battlefield control and debuffing and blasting, for instance) than to have spells that fully fit into two different thematic schools.

Personally, I think that the dispel magic spell needs to be broken down to components, as it has way too many applications.

That's already been taken care of in this fix, since counterspelling was already split out into a separate mechanic; while you could certainly split single-target dispel and area dispel into separate spells beyond that, there's no pressing need to do so in a build-your-own-spell setup where every other spell effect is similarly broad.

[Lacuna Caster]

Personally, I think that the dispel magic spell needs to be broken down to components, as it has way too many applications.

I'm kinda moving in that direction, as most spells have either specific counterspells or are better at countering spells within the same school.

You know - This looks very close to what I was trying to build a while back. Have you read it by chance?

Not that I recall, but feel free to link it.

I definitely think that this Inspiration system (which I would rename Conviction, actually, since it's more about firmness of belief than morale) is a better way to go than introducing a "feedback" mechanism only for Enchantment spells--particularly since the "make your save and see the caster" thing is more typical for Divination (Scrying) spells than Enchantment spells.

Things like having stronger convictions and/or willpower should in principle already be handled by will saves and the Vows system from the other thread, which could be extended to non-religious beliefs for other characters (the Compulsion rules already have some built-in penalties for overwriting the subject's beliefs.)

The feedback system might be possible to streamline or tone down, but I do rather like the idea of having extended psychic battles in some form or another, and even non-casters should have a reasonable chance of defending themselves in that arena. (There is technically a sliver of precedent for this in the description of the nightmare spell, in that a targeted dispelling rebounds quite badly on the caster.) But I guess it needs to be playtested first.

Inspiration is already an optional 5e mechanic, so I was just borrowing the name, but I think the PCs just having a certain degree of metagame privilege isn't particularly unusual. The Artha system in BW isn't dissimilar, for example, and seems to operate fine.

[Indigo Knight]

Whether you believe that the schools hold up logically or not--and I firmly believe that they do, and that people who believe that they don't are looking at the bad spell assignments made in late 3e by lazy devs rather than at the lore and themes behind the schools themselves--the schools are, at the end of the day, a thematic grouping rather than a mechanical one.

Some do, others don't. I think it's more on a case by case basis. The developers clearly didn't have an overarching idea in mind. And many weird occurrences appear.

Keyword "schools" already exist in the form of descriptors, and combat roles make bad schools because not only are those incredibly restricting but it's much more common to have "multi-threat" spells that perform two or three different roles in combat (several spells can do battlefield control and debuffing and blasting, for instance) than to have spells that fully fit into two different thematic schools.

All this is true. However!
1. The thematic grouping already lends itself to certain identity. A buffer will probably be Abjurer or Transmuter. Necromancer is more likely to have debuffs and damage dealing capabilities.
It also doesn't have to be a True/False thing. It could be more of a better spells for that school in that kind of way then in that other school.
2. The game already treats the schools in mechanicistly way. Specialization, Focus Feat, the dices you need to roll to succeed. The schools fails to act only as a fluff thing.

That's already been taken care of in this fix, since counterspelling was already split out into a separate mechanic; while you could certainly split single-target dispel and area dispel into separate spells beyond that, there's no pressing need to do so in a build-your-own-spell setup where every other spell effect is similarly broad.

Could you point me? I must have missed it.

I'm kinda moving in that direction, as most spells have either specific counterspells or are better at countering spells within the same school.

How does casting both haste and slow affect a target?
Are there other pairings that have the same relationship?
Is there a difference between countering, negating, depressing, banishing or nullifying?
Do I need to know to cast the spell to counter it?

Not that I recall, but feel free to link it.

I will try to find it.


I understand that your work is mana-based, is that right?

[Lacuna Caster]

How does casting both haste and slow affect a target?
Are there other pairings that have the same relationship?
Is there a difference between countering, negating, depressing, banishing or nullifying?
Do I need to know to cast the spell to counter it?

I don't think haste and slow have actually been covered yet- there was some discussion as to whether to file it under evocation or universal- but the notes for each school generally make some mention of which spells are 'opposites' (evocation is here.) At the moment there's no particular difference between countering a spell on the fly or nullifying a longer-term status-effect.

Mana-based is the idea from the other thread, yes, but at the moment the school descriptions just specify spell-level rather than mana cost, so in principle they could be adapted to regular vanceian casting.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The feedback system might be possible to streamline or tone down, but I do rather like the idea of having extended psychic battles in some form or another, and even non-casters should have a reasonable chance of defending themselves in that arena. (There is technically a sliver of precedent for this in the description of the nightmare spell, in that a targeted dispelling rebounds quite badly on the caster.) But I guess it needs to be playtested first.

Extended psychic battles seem like more of a psionics thing, if you're planning to split that off like you are animist/druidic casting. But if you do include those, I'd think those should be more of a separate subsystem, or at least its own spell seed that can be deliberately cast, rather than something that can be randomly triggered by casting an Enchantment spell, if only because the logistics of "Surprise! Sudden sub-encounter!" in the middle of a battle or infiltration would be kind of a pain.

Inspiration is already an optional 5e mechanic, so I was just borrowing the name, but I think the PCs just having a certain degree of metagame privilege isn't particularly unusual. The Artha system in BW isn't dissimilar, for example, and seems to operate fine.

Re-reading what you wrote, I think I misinterpreted what you meant; when you said "shut down mind control" and "become vulnerable when it hits zero" it sounded like an Exalted-style perfect defense or an ongoing passive "I'm a PC" immunity (which is a degree of metagame intrusiveness that's fairly out of place in D&D), but if you merely meant something like 5e inspiation or 3e action points where it makes it more likely to resist mind control in a way indistinguishable in the fiction from normal luck or willpower or whatever, that's probably fine.

All this is true. However!
1. The thematic grouping already lends itself to certain identity. A buffer will probably be Abjurer or Transmuter. Necromancer is more likely to have debuffs and damage dealing capabilities.
It also doesn't have to be a True/False thing. It could be more of a better spells for that school in that kind of way then in that other school.

The difference is that the thematic groupings include combat roles, rather than being defined by them. Buffers are often Abjurers and Transmuters, but Abjurers and Transmuters are much more than just buffers, and it's much more likely for a player looking at the schools to pick a concept theme-first ("I wanna be a demon summoner, so I'm going to play a Conjurer!") than role-first ("I wanna be a battlefield controller, so I'm going to play a Conjurer!").

2. The game already treats the schools in mechanicistly way. Specialization, Focus Feat, the dices you need to roll to succeed. The schools fails to act only as a fluff thing.

I never said that schools are (or are trying to be) mechanics-agnostic, just that they're a thematic grouping first. And where they do intersect with mechanics, it's fairly important that they act as thematic groupings more than combat-role groupings.

Detect magic, for instance, will tell you the school of a magic trap's effect, and it's much more useful to know that a trap is, say, a Conjuration trap ("Okay guys, we're probably about to get teleported somewhere or have to face some monsters, get ready!") versus a Necromancy trap ("Okay guys, instant-death trap ahead, anyone have any Fort save buffs?") than that it's a blasting vs. debuffing trap because "damage" and "debuffs" are far too broad a category to reason about or prepare for.

Also, it's much more useful to have subschool mechanics so that your illusions work the same way, your teleportation works the same way, your polymorphing works the same way, etc. for thematic consistency and making reasoning about similar spell effects easier, as opposed to having all your blasting work the same way, all your personal buffs work the same way, etc., because again, "blasting" and "personal buffs" are so broad that you don't get any benefit for putting common mechanics in subschools instead of the spells themselves.

[Indigo Knight]

Do note that I'm not requesting that the schools be buffing, debuffing, etc. More so that aligning the existing schools on the coordinates of mechanics could help. Maybe.
Anyway, it is a moot point.


I found it.
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18327.0

Also, you may want to look at the post here, since it's connected to the spells.
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?top...3165#msg283165


Is there a summary page for current status of your homebrew?
Cheers

[Lacuna Caster]

I found it.
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18327.0

Also, you may want to look at the post here, since it's connected to the spells.
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?top...3165#msg283165

Cheers. I'll try and take a look over the weekend.

I don't really have a central repository online at the moment, but I might put one together a bit later.

Anyhoo, last major batch of spell domains for a while (some of which might not be strictly functional since they refer to transmutation/thaumaturgy effects,) but mostly ready to go. Rules for Conjuration, and then some general-purpose Divine spells intended for each of the major alignments.

CONJURATION SPELLS

General Conjuration Modifiers
  Distance:
    +0 a hundred feet
    +1 a mile or so
    +2 100 miles
    +3 anywhere on earth
    +4 to/from another plane
  Planar Connection:
    +1 per 2 outsider levels beyond level 4
  Volition:
    -1 if creature is on friendly plane
    +2 if creature is on hostile plane

Sending (level 1)
  Allows communication with a subject remotely.
  The subject must be known first hand or uniquely identified-
  certain divinations may be helpful in this regard.
  Modifiers:
    +0 Conveys short message (25 words or so- a simple dialog check)
    +2 Allow dialogue for 10 minutes- allows full dialog scene
    +1 per level of Enchantment you want to apply to subject
    +1 per level of Illusion you want to apply to your appearance

Teleport (level 2)
  Transports the caster to a distant point (or plane.)
  Passengers (can stack):
    +0 personal
    +1 4 additional minute/tiny creatures
    +1 2 additional small/medium/large creatures
    +1 1 additional huge creature
    +2 1 additional colossal creature
  Accurate targeting still requires beating a static DC of 10.
    +0  if area is highly familiar or closely studied
    +5  if area is uniquely described or studied on map
    +10 if area is seen casually or known by rumour
    +5  per level of Planar Binding or other opposed enchantments
  If targeting fails by 10 or less:
    You appear in a similar location within range at GM's discretion.
  If targeting fails by more than 10:
    All subjects take 2d10 damage and you must re-roll.

Planar Binding (level 3)
  Makes it impossible to cast Conjurations.
  Cannot move/act at all if you're an Outsider.
  Can be voided at will by caster, which can be used for bargaining purposes.
  Lasts 1 minute/level.
  Potency +1: increase duration, increase save DC by 2.

Summoning (level 4)
  Summons a being from the outer planes into your presence.
  There is no guarantee that this being will be friendly/compliant-
  wise casters will, e.g, ready a Circle of Planar Binding first.
  Modifiers:
    -1 if a suitable host body is available and tenant is willing
    +2 if creature is unwilling (allows will save)
  Distance modifiers do not apply.

Banishment (level 4)
  As Summoning, but banishes an outsider to it's home plane.

Word of Recall (level 4)
  Nominates a 'home point' for the caster or an item in their possession.
  At any subsequent time, the caster may return the object or item to
  that point with no risk of mistargeting, regardless of distance.
  does not bypass Planar Binding.
  (Note: a contigency spell on the caster/object can trigger instead.)

HOLY SPELLS:

Radiance (level 0):
  As Light, but 1 level higher.
  Undead suffer 1d4 burn damage/level and a -5 save penalty.

Word of Peace (level 1):
  Grants +10 bonus to a single persuasion test-
  must attempt to defuse or de-escalate violence.
  Can function as Banishment against compelled undead.

Exorcism (level 1):
  As Banishment, but limited to malign undead and outsiders.
  Requires successful dialog test or conflict scene.

Libation (level 1):
  Requires a dish of clean water.
  Allows Close Wounds, Purge Affliction or Heal as potion at +1 level.
  Can create Holy Water, dealing 1d10 damage to undead or evil outsiders.
  Can be used to purify food and water as a separate casting.

Close Wounds (level 1):
  level 0 is 1d4 damage to fatigue, +2 to Craft[Healing].
  level 1 is 1d8 damage to fatigue, +5 to Craft[Healing].
  Stacks with +1 level.

Purge Affliction (level 2):
  Provides victim fresh save and +10 bonus vs. poison/disease.
  Provides +10 bonus to Craft[Healing] vs. poison or disease.
  Allows counterspell attempt vs. curses or enchantments.
  Stacks with +1 level.

Heal (level 3):
  Pick an effect:
    Re-attach lost limbs, eyes, organs, et cetera, if present.
    Permit subject fresh poison/disease save with +20 bonus.
    Immediately restore 10 injury, each +1 level stacks.
    Restore 4 points of ability damage, each +1 level stacks.
    Remove 1 negative level, each +1 level stacks.
    Regenerate lost limbs: +3 spell level.

Resurrection (level 4):
  Restores a deceased person/creature to life
  Combines contact, summoning and regeneration of remains to restore a deceased person or creature to life.
  
  Condition of Remains:
    Body is < 1 day dead and mostly intact: +0
    Body is mildly decomposed or missing a few parts: +1
    Body is heavily decomposed or badly fragmented: +2
    Body is only present as trace remnant: +3
    Body is entirely absent: +4 (must identify subject uniquely)
  
  Volition modifiers for Summoning still apply in addition to the modifiers above.  As per the terms of Sending
  and Summoning, a dialog test or scene may be required to convince the subject to return, but the spell does
  guarantee the provision of a healthy host body, which may improve your bargaining position.

PROFANE SPELLS

Miasma (level 0+):
  As Darkness, but 1 level higher.
  Deals 1 fatigue/round to living and -1 to all tests.
  Restores 1 HP/round to undead.

Death Knell (level 1+):
  As Sleep, but results are fatal.

Contagion (level 1+):
  Applies disease with a save DC of up to 5 + (5x spell level.)
  If successful, the disease immediately advances 1 stage.
  If the disease is already possessed, it advances 1 stage further.
  Also deals 1d4 + 1 damage per spell level.
  
  Can be used to contaminate food or drink with the given disease-
  in this case there is no bonus damage or stage advancement.
  
  (Baseline disease: 1 day onset, 1d4 Str damage/day, save DC 15.)

Word of Doom (level 3+):
  As Compulsion, but must be phrased as task to fulfill.
  Cannot directly alter beliefs/vows, but lasts until task is fulfilled.
  Every day the victim does not pursue the task, they gain 1 negative level.
  If the victim loses all levels, they are destroyed, body & soul.

Seal Affliction (level 3):
  Renders the effects of any other normally-temporary harmful spell or condition permanent.
  Subsequent attempts to cure or remove the condition must oppose a +15 DC or +3 spell level, whichever is appropriate.

Destruction (level 3+):
  Deals 1d8 damage/level, ignores armour and damage reduction, no save.
  If the victim is killed, their corpse is reduced to fine ash.

Soul Drain (level 5):
  Bestows one negative level on the victim each round.
  Grants effects of level 3 Heal spell to caster each round.
  Requires concentration, victim is allowed fresh save each turn.
  If victim is killed or reduced to zero levels, their soul is consumed.

Summon Undead (level 3+):
  Combines contact, summoning and binding of undead.
  Have the body: -1, Deceased in past 24 hours: -1
  Mass Summoning: +2 (affects x5 subjects, can stack)
  Souls with no current outsider levels are forced to gain 1 level of Lemure.
  If the body is missing entirely, only Lemures with incorporeal traits may be summoned.
  
  Volition modifiers for Summoning apply as normal.  More powerful undead can be raising using the usual summoning rules for outsiders, but the spell level may have to be adjusted appropriately.

NATURE SPELLS:

Abundance (level 1+):
  Multiplies food and water from an existing source-
  either current rations, fruiting vegetation or an animal carcass.
  Converts 1 unit of rations into 4.
  Multiply effects x4 for each +1 spell level.

Envenom (level 1+):
  Applies poison with a save DC of up to 5 + (5x spell level.)
  If successful, onset period is ignored.
  May be applied to weapon or food/drink instead of direct casting-
  If it hits, no initial save is permitted, but onset applies.
  
  (Baseline poison: 1 minute onset, 1d6 damage/round, save DC 15.)

Awakening (level 2):
  Grants an animal the Awakened trait, allowing them to acquire skills
  and feats without restriction.  They may also learn (though not usually
  speak) human languages, and gain +1 to Int/Wis/Cha.
  
  This spell also establishes a telepathic bond with the creature, allowing
  for sight through their eyes and mutual communication.  Any such bond
  beyond the first requires concentration to maintain.
  
  Can be revoked by the original caster, or made Perpetual.

Wild Aspect (Level 1+):
  Lasts 1 minute/level.
  Grant attribute bonus within range of particular species' stats.
  Maximum bonus matches spell level.
  Examples:
    Cat's Reflexes:   max +4 Ref
    Bull's Strength:  max +4 Str
    Owl's Wisdom:     max +4 Wis
  May also be used to confer natural feats of lower point cost than
  the spell level.

Wild Shape (level 3+):
  As Polymorph, but 1 level higher, and must be instantaneous.
  Form is limited to familiar animal species, may revoke at will.

Call Of The Wild (level 3+):
  Functions as Mass Summoning for animals of a particular species within
  a given area.  Distance modifiers apply instead of extraplanar origin.

Summon Elements (level 3+):
  Functions as either a Call Fire, Call Ice, Call Lightning or Call Wind
  spell of 1 level lower, or as a Summoning spell of 1 level lower, for
  Elementals only.

Control Weather (level 4+):
  10 times normal casting/preparation time.
  Functions similarly to a +20 bonus to Knowledge [Weather] tests, with
  a +5 bonus per additional spell level.
  Note that particularly intense weather can confer bonuses to casting
  and preparing certain Evocation spells.

ORDER SPELLS:

Note:  Anathema is the designated 'other' for the cleric in question- a despised enemy to
be hunted and destroyed, such as undead, hostile outsiders, wiley fae or chthonic aberrations.
Options are much as per the description for a Favoured Enemy, but usually specified for each
divine patron's domain.

Commandment (level 0+):
  As Compulsion, but 1 level higher.
  Must relate to a religious tenet or article of faith.

Discern Truth (level 0+):
  As Discern Mind, but 1 level higher.
  Limited to revealing falsehoods or major ommissions, not thoughts or language.

Bless Weapon (level 1+):
  Grants a weapon +1 to damage and +1 to hit.
  Lasts until discharged, may be cast during attack.
  Effect is doubled vs. Anathema.
  Each +1 spell level stacks effects.

Shield of Faith (level 2):
  Grants +1 to AC, or +2 from the fore.
  Lasts 1 minute/level.
  Further +1 bonus vs. Anathema.
  Each +2 spell level doubles effects and extends duration.

Sanctuary (level 1+):
  Enemies must make a will save vs. spell level to attack the subject.
  Anathema suffer a -10 penalty to the save.

Consecration (level 3+):
  As Permanency, but applies strictly to divine spells cast upon a piece of
  equipment or holy ground.
  Optionally, holy ground may be granted a permanent bonus to casting
  spells from the same divine patron as the caster.
    spell level 4: +1
    spell level 5: +2
    spell level 6: +3
    spell level 7: +4
    spell level 8: +5

Mark of Justice (level 3+):
  As Compulsion, but 1 level higher, and limited to providing terms of
  release or atonement after the serious violation of a law.
  Must have indefinite duration, but cannot be dispelled.

Immovable Object (level 4+):
  Lasts 1 round/level.
  Grants DR 10, +5 Str and +5 to all saves, immune to knockback, trip etc.
  Each +1 spell level grants +2 DR, +1 Str and +1 to all saves.

[Lacuna Caster]

Extended psychic battles seem like more of a psionics thing, if you're planning to split that off like you are animist/druidic casting. But if you do include those, I'd think those should be more of a separate subsystem, or at least its own spell seed that can be deliberately cast, rather than something that can be randomly triggered by casting an Enchantment spell, if only because the logistics of "Surprise! Sudden sub-encounter!" in the middle of a battle or infiltration would be kind of a pain.

That's true, now that you mention it. The GM would probably have some discretion over whether to use a contested skill roll or an extended dialog scene, but it would be tricky to figure out how the latter would work in the middle of a larger battlefield situation.

I'm probably not going to make any specific effort at replicating psionics- I've got quite enough on my plate with the current bestiary and feat system.

Re-reading what you wrote, I think I misinterpreted what you meant; when you said "shut down mind control" and "become vulnerable when it hits zero" it sounded like an Exalted-style perfect defense or an ongoing passive "I'm a PC" immunity (which is a degree of metagame intrusiveness that's fairly out of place in D&D), but if you merely meant something like 5e inspiration or 3e action points where it makes it more likely to resist mind control in a way indistinguishable in the fiction from normal luck or willpower or whatever, that's probably fine.

Well, 'vulnerable' in the sense of 'more likely to happen', sure. I might still allow auto-shutdown specifically for mind-control through (or something like 'roll automatic 20 at the cost of 2 Inspiration'.)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

CONJURATION SPELLS

General Conjuration Modifiers
  Distance:
    +0 a hundred feet
    +1 a mile or so
    +2 100 miles
    +3 anywhere on earth
    +4 to/from another plane
[...]
Planar Binding (level 3)
  Makes it impossible to cast Conjurations.
  Cannot move/act at all if you're an Outsider.
  Can be voided at will by caster, which can be used for bargaining purposes.
  Lasts 1 minute/level.
  Potency +1: increase duration, increase save DC by 2.

Summoning (level 4)
  Summons a being from the outer planes into your presence.
  There is no guarantee that this being will be friendly/compliant-
  wise casters will, e.g, ready a Circle of Planar Binding first.
  Modifiers:
    -1 if a suitable host body is available and tenant is willing
    +2 if creature is unwilling (allows will save)
  Distance modifiers do not apply.

I notice that the Summoning seed has a "Distance modifiers do not apply" note but Planar Binding does not; is that an oversight, or are you changing Planar Binding to a more 5e-style "bind something that you already summoned with another spell" effect?

HOLY SPELLS:
[...]
Resurrection (level 4):
  Restores a deceased person/creature to life
  Combines contact, summoning and regeneration of remains to restore a deceased person or creature to life.
  
  Condition of Remains:
    Body is < 1 day dead and mostly intact: +0
    Body is mildly decomposed or missing a few parts: +1
    Body is heavily decomposed or badly fragmented: +2
    Body is only present as trace remnant: +3
    Body is entirely absent: +4 (must identify subject uniquely)

Was it intentional that all of these effects are -1 spell level from their core equivalent (base effect at level 4 is equivalent to 5th-level revivify, and resurrection without a body at level 8 is equivalent to 9th-level true resurrection) with no side effects like reincarnate's random new body, raise dead's level loss, etc.? Nothing wrong with that inherently, but I wasn't sure if you meant for the new social test required to resurrect someone to mitigate those factors or if you just meant to add that in on top and the different levels were an off-by-1 error.

NATURE SPELLS:
[...]
Awakening (level 2):
  Grants an animal the Awakened trait, allowing them to acquire skills
  and feats without restriction.  They may also learn (though not usually
  speak) human languages, and gain +1 to Int/Wis/Cha.

If you don't want to go with 3d6 mental stats (and that's fine, given the interaction with metamagic effects), you might want to have this give a larger bonus (+1d6ish, perhaps) or at least set Int to 10, since (A) it's usually cast to give an animal average-human-like intelligence and dealing with a companion that can no longer be Handle Animal'd yet is too dim to be useful on its own can be a pain, and (B) having Int 3 gives them very few skill points to play with, which negates some of the "can acquire skills without restriction" benefit unless you plan for the Awakened trait to give them some bonus points to make up for it.

Wild Aspect (Level 1+):
  Lasts 1 minute/level.
  Grant attribute bonus within range of particular species' stats.
  Maximum bonus matches spell level.
  Examples:
    Cat's Reflexes:   max +4 Ref
    Bull's Strength:  max +4 Str
    Owl's Wisdom:     max +4 Wis

This can be problematic, since on the one hand you usually get a +4 to given stat with a 2nd-level spell rather than a 4th-level spell so the 1st-level version of this isn't really worth casting, and on the other hand being able to get +9 to a stat is pretty darn strong if that translates into jacking up your DCs, giving you +70ish HP, or the like.

I'd suggest instead to have it be a Level 2+ spell that grants a flat +4 instead of a scaling +level, and have the +level effects be things like increasing it to hour/level duration (like the 3.0 version of the [animal]'s [stat] spells had), adding on a second stat boost, and so forth, so higher levels add versatility and reliability rather than power.

ORDER SPELLS:
[...]
Commandment (level 0+):
  As Compulsion, but 1 level higher.
  Must relate to a religious tenet or article of faith.

Losing stuff like "Halt!" and "Flee!" on the command equivalent (since I assume no religion would have those relate sufficiently to its tenets to count) really cuts down on this seed's utility. Since Compulsion already has a check involved to persuade/coerce the target, what if rather than requiring a direct relation to religious tenets it instead provided a check bonus if the desired action related to a tenet of the caster's faith and a penalty if it went against one? That way, a Pelorite could easily compel someone to heal someone but would take penalties to compelling someone to attack an ally, a Banite could easily compel someone to surrender but would take penalties to compelling someone to heal them, and either faith could make vanilla compulsions like fleeing or halting with equal skill.

Consecration (level 3+):
  As Permanency, but applies strictly to divine spells cast upon a piece of
  equipment or holy ground.

Minor nitpick, but in core consecrate makes "holy ground" holy in the first place and hallow is the one that does the really-long-duration-spell-effect thing (and also consecrates it, but that's not the main reason to use hallow), so you might want to either change the name and introduce a separate Consecrate seed to consecrate an area, or allow this seed to do either one.

I'm probably not going to make any specific effort at replicating psionics- I've got quite enough on my plate with the current bestiary and feat system.

Honestly, with the seed-and-augment system being so close to 3e psionics augmentation already, it probably wouldn't be too much work to fold psionics into this as a fourth flavor of "psionic magic" alongside arcane, divine, and natural magic. You've already got the variable-energy-type blasting, extra-creature-type compulsions, and so on, and things like temporal manipulation, telekinetic control of things, and the like are already mentioned in your plans for further seeds.

The main psionic schticks you haven't covered or don't already plan to cover are (A) a build-your-own-summon system à la astral construct, which you could do as a pointer to your modular monster system, (B) direct-mental-attack powers like mind thrust (straight damage), ego whip (Cha damage), etc., which you could do as something like "As [insert Evocation seed], but deals Psychic damage instead of its normal type and has no physical manifestation," (C) mental and physical splitting/merging like schism, fission, fusion, metaconcert, and such, which either fall under your "situational casting bonuses" rules (metaconcert as a ritual-like setup, schism as a pseudo-Quicken at a penalty, etc.) or are kind of tricky and could be safely left out if you don't feel like tackling them.

[Lacuna Caster]

On Awakening/Wild Aspect: I think part of the problem here is that I'm confusing the attributes system for my custom rule-set with the stats for standard D&D (stats go from 1 to 5, not 3 to 18.) I'll need to clean those up and post separate versions, possibly.

Planar Binding has more in common with old-skool Dimensional Anchor mechanically, but I'm not too pushed about the name. The new version of Consecrate should be multi-purpose already, unless I missed something?

Was it intentional that all of these effects are -1 spell level from their core equivalent (base effect at level 4 is equivalent to 5th-level revivify, and resurrection without a body at level 8 is equivalent to 9th-level true resurrection) with no side effects like reincarnate's random new body, raise dead's level loss, etc.?

I think I just forgot about the level loss- I'll stick that in. The social test is a factor, sure, but more generally they're only lower-level if you can cast the spell immediately (it's assumed that souls which have been dead long enough for the corpse to molder or disappear have gained enough outsider levels that they're intrinsically more difficult to summon, even if they haven't reincarnated.)

Losing stuff like "Halt!" and "Flee!" on the command equivalent (since I assume no religion would have those relate sufficiently to its tenets to count) really cuts down on this seed's utility.. ...a Banite could easily compel someone to surrender but would take penalties to compelling someone to heal them, and either faith could make vanilla compulsions like fleeing or halting with equal skill.

Yeah, that's a good call. I've been thinking about a similar system of penalties/bonuses for domain spells, generic spells and 'opposed spells' for clerics more generally, so that would probably fit the mold quite well.

Honestly, with the seed-and-augment system being so close to 3e psionics augmentation already, it probably wouldn't be too much work to fold psionics into this as a fourth flavor of "psionic magic" alongside arcane, divine, and natural magic. You've already got the variable-energy-type blasting, extra-creature-type compulsions, and so on, and things like temporal manipulation, telekinetic control of things, and the like are already mentioned in your plans for further seeds...

...maybe. I suppose I could wedge in a few bonus schticks for direct mental duels or fission/fusion, etc., but I'd have to revisit the question and/or proper school divisions later.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

On Awakening/Wild Aspect: I think part of the problem here is that I'm confusing the attributes system for my custom rule-set with the stats for standard D&D (stats go from 1 to 5, not 3 to 18.) I'll need to clean those up and post separate versions, possibly.

Ah, yes, that would help. And attribute ranges and costs would probably be good to know for other aspects of the system.

The new version of Consecrate should be multi-purpose already, unless I missed something?

This Consecrate applies to spells cast on holy ground, but doesn't actually let you make a location "holy ground," is what I'm getting at. Unless that second "holy ground may be granted a permanent bonus..." clause is supposed to mean "the location chose can be made into holy ground, which grants a permanent bonus..." in which case the wording could use some clarification.

...maybe. I suppose I could wedge in a few bonus schticks for direct mental duels or fission/fusion, etc., but I'd have to revisit the question and/or proper school divisions later.

That's fine, you don't have to include psionics, I just figure that your initial reluctance was due to not knowing the system well enough to adapt it but the convergent evolution should make it easier to adapt than expected.

[Lacuna Caster]

Ah, yes, that would help. And attribute ranges and costs would probably be good to know for other aspects of the system.

I think I covered the basics here- you just split 15 points between 6 attributes, min 1, max 5. I've added some sketch-notes on the afterlife system as well, if you wanted to look over those.

[Indigo Knight]

I don't really have a central repository online at the moment, but I might put one together a bit later.

Were you able to consolidate a page with your notes? Even a post in the thread will suffice.

[Lacuna Caster]

Were you able to consolidate a page with your notes? Even a post in the thread will suffice.

I'm not a million miles from having all the various spell types and monster traits sketched out now, so I'll probably start collating them properly in a central location then.

[Lacuna Caster]

Just gonna throw out the last few bits and pieces now- Transmutation, Thaumaturgy and Universal.

General Transmutation:
  
  All transmutation spells allow fortitude saves and can be
  countered by themselves.  They also restore 1d4 + 1 HP per
  level, with the exception of Disintegrate/Petrify.

  There is no general Polymorph or Trait Morph spell. A separate
  spell must be researched or learned for each particular creature
  whose form the caster desires to assume, which requires a
  tissue sample from that creature for research purposes.
  
  Note:  Any traits granted permanently must occupy available
  feat slots- if necessary, the trauma of the change causes
  other feats to be 'forgotten' and replaced, chosen at the
  subject's discretion.  Any feats that lack their prerequisites
  due to changes in base attributes or species are also lost.
  
  Note:  Unwilling subjects must be either restrained,
  unconscious, or targeted by a ranged touch attack to be
  affected.
  
  Onset adjustments:
    Gradual (1d8 days   ): +0, fresh save or 'dose' each day
    Normal  (1d4 minutes): +1, allows time for counterspell
    Rapid   (1 round    ): +2, allows time for counterspell
    Instant (once cast  ): +3, can only counter when cast
  
  Other adjustments:
    Short duration (a few minutes) +0
    Subject is unwilling: +1
    Medium duration (a few days) +1, fresh save each day allowed
    Permanent duration +3, unwilling subjects get repeated saves as per medium duration.


Polymorph (level 0+)
  Transforms a living subject into a genetic clone of another
  creature or person, based on a pre-existing sample of their
  tissues.  Mental attributes are unaffected unless changes are
  permanent.
  
  Adjustments:
    Same species, different individual: +0
    Different species: +1
    Is elemental or aberration: +1 (each)
    Per 2 traits granted (round up): +1
    Enlarge/reduce subject: +1 per difference in size category


Trait Morph (level 1+):
  Confers one particular trait from the animal, plant or
  infection list upon the subject.  Must be based on a pre-
  existing tissue sample of a creature with this trait.


Balance of Humours (level 1+):
  Grants up to a +1 bonus/level to a particular attribute, at a
  similar cost to other attributes.  At most a +3 bonus or
  increase can be conferred.
  
  Can also stores another Transmutation spell in the form of a
  potion, which remains stable for 5 + 1d10 days.  If ingested
  or injected, increases save DC by +5.


Airs & Vapours (level +3):
  Applies the effects of any alchemical potion, poison or other
  transmutation to all subjects within a spreading cloud of]
  vapour.  (If no potion is available, water may be used,
  simply creating a translucent mist.)
  
  The cloud always grants concealment to those within it's area
  and extends for 4 5-ft squares per level.  It also increases
  any save DC vs. effects by 2.  Lasts 1 minute/level.


Transubstantiate (level 3+):
  Converts one basic element- air, earth, fire or water- either
  wholly or partly into another.  This can be used to create
  bursts of natural fire, areas of mud, convert loose earth to
  solid stone, or make liquids evaporate.  While in liquid or
  gaseous form, a substance can be sculpted, shaped or
  dispersed as desired.
  
  Extends for 4 5-ft cubes per level, lasts 1 minute/level or
  until dismissed.  Cannot be cast on living creatures or magic
  items.
  
  Can also provide a +4 bonus, +2 per extra level, to any
  Craft [Alchemy] check.


Disintegrate / Petrify (level 4+):
  Gradually either tears the subject apart on a molecular level,
  or turns them to stone, starting with any afflicted extremity
  (use the Critical Strike rules to determine initial loss of
  limb or damage multiple.)
  
  The victim rolls twice to save vs. progression- if both pass, 
  the spell is ended, if both fail, they take 2d12 damage and
  must make another progression check, and if only one passes,
  they take 1d4 damage and need not save again for 1 day.  The
  condition is exceedingly painful and normal healing may not
  take place while the spell is in effect.  Amputation of an
  affected extremity does not suffice to purge the condition.
  
  Onset adjustments reduce the progression interval to 1 hour, 1
  minute, and 1 round.  Other adjustments do not apply.
  
  Disintegrate and Petrify counter eachother and must be learned
  separately.

Thaumaturgy:

Mage's Weapon (level 1+):
  Protects a weapon from rust or chipping, add +10 hardness.
  Grants minimum +1 bonus to hit and damage, can hit incorporeal targets.
  May also be cast on 20 bolts of ammunition or 5 thrown items.
  Each +2 spell level increases the minimum hit and damage bonus, max +5.

Mage's Armour (level 1+):
  Protects armour from rust or chipping, add +10 hardness.
  Grants minimum +1 bonus to AC and DR, can block incorporeal attacks.
  May be cast on the mage or their spellbook for another +2 AC.
  Each +2 spell level increases the minimum AC and DR bonus, max +5.

Inscription (level 2+):
  Store a Necromancy or Transmutation spell in a potion.
  Store any other Arcana-based spell in a scroll.
  Spell parameters must be chose at time of instillment.
  Max spell level is 1, and increases by 1 with each +1 spell level.

Contingency (level 2+):
  Trigger another spell that affects you based on trigger conditions.
  Trigger conditions must be unambiguously specified based on traits
  perceptible to a human viewer- a spoken name, species, sex, current
  time, degree of injury, etc.
  May also plug in a Divination spell to help identify conditions.
  Max spell level is 1, and increases by 1 with each +1 spell level.

Perpetual [X] (level +3):
  Lasts forever if it has a non-instant duration, affects the caster, item
  or a willing subject.  May have conditions, as Contingency.
  Subject must retain (or be) the substrate item to gain benefit.
  Requires masterwork item as substrate.

Circle of [X] (level +3+):
  Applies effects of another spell with non-instant duration to any creature
  or object that enters 5-ft radius.  May have conditions, as Contingency.
  Symbols may be drawn temporarily on surface.
  Each +1 spell level increases radius by 10 ft.
  Requires masterwork item as substrate for permanent effect.

Symbol of [X] (level +3):
  Applies effects of another spell with instant duration to any creatures
  within range, then goes dormant.  May have conditions, as Contingency.
  Symbol may be drawn temporarily on surface.
  Requires masterwork item as substrate for permanent effect.

Mage's Staff (level 3+):
  Permits enchantment of a masterwork staff (or wand) to provide a bonus
  to other arcane casting.  This provides a +2 Arcana bonus and 5 bonus
  spell points.
  Each +3 spell level adds another +2 Arcana bonus and 5 bonus spell
  points, max +6/15.

Create Golem (level 4+):
  Functions as Summoning for an Eidolon or Logos, but requires a golem
  body be prepared in readiness.
  A Golem's body can be considered either a type of full plate armour or
  masterwork sculpture and may be crafted accordingly.
    Steel: +20 HP, +5 per bonus, DR 5.
    Stone: +15 HP, +4 per bonus, DR 5/blunt.
    Clay:  +10 HP, +2 per bonus, DR 5/blunt.
    Wood:  +5  HP, +1 per bonus, DR 5/edged, 2x damage from fire.

Universal:

Extended [X] (level +1):
  Spell duration is doubled.

Distant [X] (level +1):
  Range of spell increases 30 ft.

Empowered [X] (level +2):
  Roll for numeric effects twice and take the better result,
  OR increase damage by 50%.

Widened [X] (level +3):
  Instantaneous area of effect is doubled.

Word of [X] (level +3+):
  The spell allows no save for victims of level 4 or less.
  Each +1 spell level increases max victim level by 2.

Mass [X] (level +4+):
  Affects two creatures/level within 30 ft.
  If the base spell is touch range, it gains a 15-ft range.
  Cannot require concentration or negotiated outcomes.

Stretch Time (level 3+):
  Haste +0: Subject gains 1 bonus action per round, +2 Reflex.  Lasts 3 rounds.
  Slow  +1: Subject loses 1 action per round, -2 Reflex.  Can stack.
            Subjects with no actions cannot be interacted with.
  Stop  +2: You take a full round of actions for free.  Can stack.
            Other creatures and solid objects cannot be interacted with.

Wish (level 5+):
  In a synthesis of several different schools of magic, you
  reach back in the flow of time and space to some point in your 
  own past, and implant the knowledge of the future in your
  past-self's mind with the intent of altering key events.  For
  game purposes, you rewind time back to that point and replay
  the game- but the further back you reach, the more difficult
  it becomes, and the more Inspiration must be spent.
  Time back:
    1 round:     +0, 0 Inspiration
    1d4 minutes: +1, 1 Inspiration
    1d4 days:    +2, 2 Inspiration
    1d4 years:   +3, 3 Inspiration
    a lifetime:  +4, 4 Inspiration
  Note:  This spell should probably not be cast as a unilateral
  decision- any other player (including the GM) can spend a
  point of Inspiration to allow their designated character to
  either retain similar knowledge of the future, or simply to
  cancel out Inspiration spent by the caster.

I have the various Crafting rules mostly worked out now, which are intended to complement some of these, and Necromancy is mostly done as well. Laters.

EDIT: Updated wording for Polymorph/Trait morph requirements.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Each casting of Polymorph or Trait Morph with respect to a
  particular tissue sample must be learned or researched as a
  separate spell.

While limiting polymorph to not be "turn into any monster you've ever heard of" is definitely a good thing, I think this restriction is probably too punitive. Firstly, learning a spell is a non-trivial downtime investment (for researched spells) and/or opportunity cost (for automatically-learned spells, assuming you're keeping the "learn N spells on level-up" rule with the new system), and possibly takes up a precious spell known slot if your new casters have limited repertoires; I skimmed your other thread again and didn't see anything about learning spells, so this part is a bit hazy as to how much of an effect it would have.

Second, the restriction goes against the general increased breadth of your new spells; when "turn into an ogre" and "turn into a troll" are separate spells, but Call Fire is "cast any Evocation [Fire] spell you want," that's pretty limiting. And third, requiring the research and the body part renders the spell nonfunctional a lot of the time: if you research the spell before you get a body part, if you run out of harvested body parts and have to kill another monster for more parts, and so on then it's just a nonfunctional line on your character sheet.

So what I would suggest is splitting your spell seeds into two. Polymorph splits into Assume Form, which has the specific creature requirement but not the body part requirement (and is probably researched as "Form of the X" or the like) and works all the time, and Polymorph, which has the body part requirement but not the specific creature requirement and can turn you into anything that would fit into the formula for the level at which it it's cast. The same goes for Assume Trait (becoming Bite of the X or Claws of the Y or whatever) and Partial Polymorph, or whatever you want to call those.

That's probably enough control on those spells, because Assume Form for even a very good form still just does that, compared to the versatility of other spells, and you can control the power of Polymorph with appropriate monster-harvesting rules. And if dumpster-diving in combat is a concern, you can give Polymorph a long enough casting time to prevent combat use, which also fits the classic use of polymorph: people tend to have two or three go-to combat forms, and then hunt around for creatures with relevant senses, movement modes, special abilities, and such for out-of-combat utility.

Inscription (level 2+):
  Store a Necromancy or Transmutation spell in a potion.
  Store any other Arcana-based spell in a scroll.
  Spell parameters must be chose at time of instillment.
  Max spell level is 1, and increases by 1 with each +1 spell level.

Nitpick: Something like "Infusion" would probably be a better name, since Inscription only applies to the scroll portion of this seed.

Create Golem (level 4+):
  Functions as Summoning for an Eidolon or Logos, but requires a golem
  body be prepared in readiness.
  A Golem's body can be considered either a type of full plate armour or
  masterwork sculpture and may be crafted accordingly.
    Steel: +20 HP, +5 per bonus, DR 5.
    Stone: +15 HP, +4 per bonus, DR 5/blunt.
    Clay:  +10 HP, +2 per bonus, DR 5/blunt.
    Wood:  +5  HP, +1 per bonus, DR 5/edged, 2x damage from fire.

For clarification, this seed lets you summon any Eidolon or Logos (angels, modrons, inevitables, etc.), but they have to manifest in one of the four specified golem bodies (or, to look at it another way, it's a build-your-own-construct spell with four specific substrates), which modify the summoned critter's stats accordingly? That seems a bit overly complex; one of the benefits of D&D-style summoning where you grab a preexisting monster is that you can use the stat block as-is.

Expanding on my Inorganic Form feat suggestion in the other thread, I'd suggest having a Create Construct spell that just require an unspecified "appropriate construct body" and summons the creature as-is, and a separate Create Golem spell that lets you choose the exact Inorganic Form parameters for a corresponding golem body and lets you assign traits as desired--or at least have those as two different non-overlapping options for the same seed. Like the Polymorph stuff above, "I want to quickly summon/animate this particular thing" and "I want to custom-build a construct guardian/mount/minion" are different spell use cases, so splitting them up can actually be better and more straightforward during play.

Wish (level 5+):
  In a synthesis of several different schools of magic, you
  reach back in the flow of time and space to some point in your 
  own past, and implant the knowledge of the future in your
  past-self's mind with the intent of altering key events.  For
  game purposes, you rewind time back to that point and replay
  the game- but the further back you reach, the more difficult
  it becomes, and the more Inspiration must be spent.
  Time back:
    1 round:     +0, 0 Inspiration
    1d4 minutes: +1, 1 Inspiration
    1d4 days:    +2, 2 Inspiration
    1d4 years:   +3, 3 Inspiration
    a lifetime:  +4, 4 Inspiration
  Note:  This spell should probably not be cast as a unilateral
  decision- any other player (including the GM) can spend a
  point of Inspiration to allow their designated character to
  either retain similar knowledge of the future, or simply to
  cancel out Inspiration spent by the caster.

With no specified/default parameters, a requirement for metagame currency, and an option to negate it, this doesn't seem like it should be a distinct spell at all, because it's basically "do anything I want that the DM will let me" (though the costless and un-negateable "go back a round and change things" option is basically the psionic power time regression and would work nicely if you do decide to port over psionics).

If you look at what the existing wish does, it's basically a spell to let you duplicate other spells you can't cast, either explicitly with the "duplicate Xth level spells from Y list" options or implicitly with the teleport-but-better, resurrection-but-better, etc. options, and the strength of this system is building spells from well-defined components, so if I were to include Wish as an option in this system it would be a spell that let you either (A) cast a spell using seeds you don't know, but at a higher minimum level or similar, or (B) exceed your normal limits to cast more powerful spells, but at a more significant cost (Inspiration, self-debuffs, etc.).

[Lacuna Caster]

Thanks, Pair'O'Dice. I'll get back with some revisions over the next day or two, but I just want to say I greatly appreciate the depth of feedback you've been giving.

[Lacuna Caster]

Actual revisions are gonna take me another while, so bear with me...

While limiting polymorph to not be "turn into any monster you've ever heard of" is definitely a good thing, I think this restriction is probably too punitive...

...Second, the restriction goes against the general increased breadth of your new spells; when "turn into an ogre" and "turn into a troll" are separate spells, but Call Fire is "cast any Evocation [Fire] spell you want," that's pretty limiting. And third, requiring the research and the body part renders the spell nonfunctional a lot of the time: if you research the spell before you get a body part, if you run out of harvested body parts and have to kill another monster for more parts, and so on then it's just a nonfunctional line on your character sheet.

Oh, the tissue-sample requirement is strictly with respect to the original research project- you don't need a sliver of wyvern-flesh every time you want to sprout wings, for example- just while you're in the lab. (And yes, rules for spell-research more generally are something I still need to cover.)

And if dumpster-diving in combat is a concern, you can give Polymorph a long enough casting time to prevent combat use, which also fits the classic use of polymorph: people tend to have two or three go-to combat forms, and then hunt around for creatures with relevant senses, movement modes, special abilities, and such for out-of-combat utility.

At the moment, the power of transmutations are mainly limited in that, by default, they have both gradual onset and short duration- if you want to transform in one round and for that transformation to last more than a few minutes, that's a +3 spell-level adjustment. In addition, the spell says nothing about your equipment or clothing remaining intact or conveniently entering hammerspace until you change back- the burden for managing all that is on you. By default, it's really more aimed toward the 'magical genetic engineering' use-case of trying to transform yourself or your hapless subjects into chimeric species of atomic supermen. Or, you know, other lame stuff.

For clarification, this seed lets you summon any Eidolon or Logos (angels, modrons, inevitables, etc.), but they have to manifest in one of the four specified golem bodies (or, to look at it another way, it's a build-your-own-construct spell with four specific substrates), which modify the summoned critter's stats accordingly...

What I was aiming for here is an equivalent to the 'possess an offered host body' option available to other summoned outsiders, with Eidolons/Logos getting the benefit of being able to 'possess' an artificial mechanical body instead. The rules regarding which traits they're able to express (or not) would be covered by the Manifestation skill (which I still need to give proper details on.) It's definitely intended more for the 'long-term minion-assembly-project' use-case than pronto-summoning, though again I probably need to revisit this with an eye toward Crafting skills.

With no specified/default parameters, a requirement for metagame currency, and an option to negate it, this doesn't seem like it should be a distinct spell at all, because it's basically "do anything I want that the DM will let me" (though the costless and un-negateable "go back a round and change things" option is basically the psionic power time regression and would work nicely if you do decide to port over psionics).

I think you're misunderstanding me slightly- 'Time travel' is kinda how it works in every case, including if you go back days or years, so the parameters are actually fairly specific: you rewind the entire game to a certain point in the past and play it over again.

Now, if you want to argue that paper/guesswork involved in rolling back time X number of days or years could be a lot of hassle for both the GM and other players... yes, absolutely. It's pretty much intended solely for cases where the PCs have absolutely screwed the pooch and want a do-over, and the metagame currency is part of the intended pricing/voting arrangement. At least that's the idea.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Thanks, Pair'O'Dice. I'll get back with some revisions over the next day or two, but I just want to say I greatly appreciate the depth of feedback you've been giving.

I'm happy to give it. You and I have fairly similar design philosophies as far as I can tell, and I've tackled a lot of similar things in vaguely similar ways in my houserules over the years as mentioned a few times, so I know where some of the common pitfalls are to help you out, and also seeing how you're doing things gives me some ideas and pointers as well to refine my own game.

Oh, the tissue-sample requirement is strictly with respect to the original research project- you don't need a sliver of wyvern-flesh every time you want to sprout wings, for example- just while you're in the lab. (And yes, rules for spell-research more generally are something I still need to cover.)

Ah, that's a wyvern of a very different color. The "casting with respect to a tissue sample" verbiage isn't clear about that at all; I'd rephrase that as something like "There is no general Polymorph or Trait Morph spell. A separate spell must be researched or learned for each particular creature whose form the caster desires to assume--Form of the Wyvern for polymorphing into a wyvern or Jaws of the Serpent to trait morph a giant snake's fangs, for instance--and researching a given Polymorph or Trait Morph spell requires a tissue sample from a creature of that kind to be obtained and incorporated into the research process."

Now, if you want to argue that paper/guesswork involved in rolling back time X number of days or years could be a lot of hassle for both the GM and other players... yes, absolutely. It's pretty much intended solely for cases where the PCs have absolutely screwed the pooch and want a do-over, and the metagame currency is part of the intended pricing/voting arrangement. At least that's the idea.

Yep, that's what I meant. A spell that's a pain to cast for everyone involved and is meant to be cast for metagame reasons to fix metagame problems is entirely different than what wish is intended to be, and the "Here, you can cast a spell you don't have access to right now at a moderate cost" aspect of the spell is worth preserving if you're going to have wish at all.

The go-far-back-in-time-and-change-things effect really should be more of a plot device ritual of some sort with ad hoc costs (so a DM can e.g. make it easy to fix something that he thinks screwed up the campaign but make it much harder to "save scum" the same mission a few times...unless he wants to run a Groundhog Day scenario, in which case it can be made trivial) than a standard spell. I know you have all sorts of cast-spells-as-rituals mechanics in your other thread, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all plot-device rituals have to be expressed as spells mechanically.

If nothing else, making it a not-a-spell means you can make it accessible outside of the standard spell level framework, which is good because it's a mechanic that lower-level characters would need more than higher-level characters on average. At high levels, PCs have more control over NPCs, the environment, the plot, etc. and so can try to head off "bad endings" with divinations, rapid-response teleports, and so forth, while at the levels when a party would really need to go "Dammit, we took so long riding here that we missed the Evil Ritual of Evil, we need to pop back a few days to get there in time" they can't cast 7th+ level spells.

[Lacuna Caster]

Ah, that's a wyvern of a very different color. The "casting with respect to a tissue sample" verbiage isn't clear about that at all; I'd rephrase that as something like "There is no general Polymorph or Trait Morph spell. A separate spell must be researched or learned for each particular creature whose form the caster desires to assume--Form of the Wyvern for polymorphing into a wyvern or Jaws of the Serpent to trait morph a giant snake's fangs, for instance--and researching a given Polymorph or Trait Morph spell requires a tissue sample from a creature of that kind to be obtained and incorporated into the research process."

Sure, can do.

Yep, that's what I meant. A spell that's a pain to cast for everyone involved and is meant to be cast for metagame reasons to fix metagame problems is entirely different than what wish is intended to be, and the "Here, you can cast a spell you don't have access to right now at a moderate cost" aspect of the spell is worth preserving if you're going to have wish at all.

The go-far-back-in-time-and-change-things effect really should be more of a plot device ritual of some sort with ad hoc costs (so a DM can e.g. make it easy to fix something that he thinks screwed up the campaign but make it much harder to "save scum" the same mission a few times...unless he wants to run a Groundhog Day scenario, in which case it can be made trivial) than a standard spell. I know you have all sorts of cast-spells-as-rituals mechanics in your other thread, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all plot-device rituals have to be expressed as spells mechanically.

If nothing else, making it a not-a-spell means you can make it accessible outside of the standard spell level framework, which is good because it's a mechanic that lower-level characters would need more than higher-level characters on average. At high levels, PCs have more control over NPCs, the environment, the plot, etc. and so can try to head off "bad endings" with divinations, rapid-response teleports, and so forth, while at the levels when a party would really need to go "Dammit, we took so long riding here that we missed the Evil Ritual of Evil, we need to pop back a few days to get there in time" they can't cast 7th+ level spells.

Hmm. For my own part, I'm happy enough to do without Wish entirely. I think one can argue that Raise Dead spells arguably have a similar consequence-negating effect for high-level characters, but I might have to think about this and get back later.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Hmm. For my own part, I'm happy enough to do without Wish entirely. I think one can argue that Raise Dead spells arguably have a similar consequence-negating effect for high-level characters, but I might have to think about this and get back later.

Don't be afraid to leave out spells if you don't think they fit or if you have to rework them beyond recognition to be happy with them. Not every spell or effect fits in every system, and that's fine.

[Indigo Knight]

That's where I liked the division of 5th edition to in-combat spells and o-o-combat spells, also known as Rituals.
I reckon spells like Gate, Wish, Weather Control, Melf's Tiny Hut are better when treated as such. Reduce the risk for shenanigens.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Personally, I hate the in-combat/out-of-combat divide. Doing that tends to lead to either any "interesting" effects being relegated to out-of-combat use and in-combat spells being nothing but blasting, healing, numerical buffs and debuffs, and the like, or the out-of-combat spells being given extra costs to discourage their use, or both (as 4e did).

(5e didn't actually divide spells up that way, fortunately, it left everything in the combat-time spellcasting system but added the option for certain spells to be cast without preparation as rituals, which doesn't fall into the same traps that trying to split up spell types does.)

And besides, any out-of-combat spell can be used in combat (or vice versa) with enough creativity. Leomund's tiny hut and fabricate can make excellent cover mid-battle; an animal messenger can deliver the bead from a delayed blast fireball or the holly berries from fire seeds; tree shape+divine agility+expeditious retreat is a poor man's oak body; and so forth. There are rarely good reasons to restrict that kind of creativity by preventing you from using those spells in combat, just DMs who are worried about how certain spells might turn out to have unforeseen and overpowered uses.

[Indigo Knight]

Yeah. I get your point.
Just keep in mind that it doesn't have to be a strict separation. Ritual spells could be used to group spells which take much longer to cast and so they are usually performed out of combat. Without outright forbidding the players to cast them in certain situations 'just because'.

I'm just saying that some spells are usually more of the preparation spells rather then heavy action spells and that that kind of distinction can be used as a tool - not something to adhere to for restrictions.

[Lacuna Caster]

Just as a heads-up: I will probably start a new thread with a proper index-system for spells/feats/traits/rules/etc. in the next few weeks, time allowing.