SWSE: Coordinated Leadership (Coordinate)

[AvatarVecna]

So starting out, there's a few places in the system that seem to support the idea that Aid Another attempts stack with each other; it's mentioned at some point as part of making mooks more dangerous in groups, and the Coordinated Barrage feat seems to call it out as explicitly legal:

When you aid an ally's attack, for every 3 points that the ally's attack roll beats the target's Reflex Defense, the attack deals +1 die of damage. The maximum number of bonus damage dice the attack receives is equal to the number of allies with this feat that aided on the attack roll or +5 dice, whichever is lower.

The feat doesn't have any language specifying that for this purpose alone, you can stack Aid Anothers, but rather it acts as if stacking them is a perfectly legal thing to do, and it puts a cap on the maximum extra damage you can get out of it. This post isn't about Coordinated Barrage (at least not directly, although that's one thing that gets pretty nuts with what I'm talking about). No what I'm here about is Coordinated Leadership (Coordinate). Coordinate lets you spend a standard action to improve the Aid Another bonus your allies grant each other by {number of times you took Coordinate, max 5} until the beginning of your next turn. Coordinated Leadership lets you choose one Leadership talent and turn its bonus to Untyped, which lets it stack with another leader using the same talent. I have a few questions on how y'all think they should interact.

Okay, so my first question is much more...general to Saga, as a d20 product. In D&D, there are rules about how the same bonus type can't stack together, while untyped bonuses can stack together unless they're also from the same source. If this same stacking rule exists in Saga, that means that even with Coordinated Leadership, somebody could only get bonuses from two leaders at once (one normal bonus, the other untyped), but...I can't find those rules. I can't find rules on bonus types, I can't find rules in insight/morale/untyped bonuses, I can't find rules on bonus stacking. Am I missing something?

Alright so moving on past that, let's assume that either that rule exists somewhere or it was meant to exist somewhere, and what I've described is how it's supposed to work, and move on to a new problem. Aid Another generally gives an untyped bonus, and Coordinate is also an untyped bonus. The existing rules for Aid Another being allowed to stack with itself indefinitely could be seen as a special exception to the AFAICT unstated general stacking rule I previously mentioned (since stacking Aid Another would mean stacking untyped bonuses of the same source...unless you count different people as different sources, but that leads to other problems involving Coordinated Leadership infinite-stacking). Is Coordinate meant to be an insight/morale bonus, or do you feel it's most appropriate as untyped as it is in RAW? I suppose if you assume the stacking rules mentioned, and that Coordinate is untyped, it means you couldn't stack it with another Coordinate leader even with Coordinated Leadership, but I dunno if that's the intention or not.

Which brings me to what I came here to ask about: Coordinated Leadership (Coordinate). If the general stacking rule I've mentioned is in effect, and if Coordinate is intended to normally have a non-untyped bonus, we have a theoretical situation where adding a Noble 7 (Coordinate 4) and a Noble 7 (Born Leader, Coordinate 2, Coordinated Leadership: Coordinate) are spending their standard actions each turn to boost the Aid Another abilities of every ally in sight by 6 points. This ridiculous range, with no limit on number of targets affected at once, which can be stacked together infinitely, turns even a tiny group of mooks into a seriously powerful force. Do you feel this is intended? Do you feel this is balanced? Am I just overreacting?

[Beleriphon]

Which brings me to what I came here to ask about: Coordinated Leadership (Coordinate). If the general stacking rule I've mentioned is in effect, and if Coordinate is intended to normally have a non-untyped bonus, we have a theoretical situation where adding a Noble 7 (Coordinate 4) and a Noble 7 (Born Leader, Coordinate 2, Coordinated Leadership: Coordinate) are spending their standard actions each turn to boost the Aid Another abilities of every ally in sight by 6 points. This ridiculous range, with no limit on number of targets affected at once, which can be stacked together infinitely, turns even a tiny group of mooks into a seriously powerful force. Do you feel this is intended? Do you feel this is balanced? Am I just overreacting?

I always felt that yes these effects are intended. It is what makes large groups of stormtroopers dangerous, it is always what makes them easier to take out. Bring down a few of them and they can't be particularly effective, take out their leader and they are back to not being able to hit a Star Destroyer from point blank range.

[emeraldstreak]

That's how it works. Example from actual campaign where 1,000 Old Republic soldiers face 13 Mandalorians.

setup
fight

[Greymane]

This ridiculous range, with no limit on number of targets affected at once, which can be stacked together infinitely, turns even a tiny group of mooks into a seriously powerful force. Do you feel this is intended? Do you feel this is balanced? Am I just overreacting?

Honestly, this seems intended, and balanced to me. I'm running Dawn of Defiance, and the rank-and-file Stormtroopers are starting to reach alarming levels of insignificance. I started having them stack up Aid Anothers to pleasing results in one encounter, and then retooled the Imperial Officers to be more Noble, and all of a sudden, some stormies with a Sergeant or an officer with them get all scary and need to be dealt with.

What you've done here appears to be the final destination of that system, and works best in wartime when you have armies fighti-

That's how it works. Example from actual campaign where 1,000 Old Republic soldiers face 13 Mandalorians.

setup
fight

And, uh, there you go. That was an interesting read.

[Friv]

And, uh, there you go. That was an interesting read.

Not a great example rules-wise, sadly, for a number of reasons.

Spoiler: Issues

Show

Issue #1 - As written, it appears that the troopers are required to all act simultaneously; normally, when the first group's Aid Anothers failed, the rest would just open fire. In this case, the GM ruled that every Aid Another action got to stack onto the Mandalorians, instead of rolling 400 attacks against them. 400 attacks without Aid Another, spread out evenly, attacks each Mandalorian 30-35 times. This is if we generously assume that the entire first fire team loses their Aid Another actions.

Issue #2 - The Green soldiers somehow each fired eight times using Return Fire, Combat Reflexes and Recurring Success.
2.1 Return Fire lets you make one return attack per encounter, and can't be used with heavy weapons, so we are presumably dealing with Heavy Blaster Rifles, rather than full heavy weapons.
2.2 Recurring Success lets you use a single feat one additional time per encounter. It does not double it. So it only grants one additional Return Fire, not a full (Dexterity) set. (In fact, according to a strict reading of the rules you can't apply it at all, since it can only be applied to feats that can only be used once, and Return Fire can be used more than once with Combat Reflexes in play.)
2.3 Autofire spends 10 of a heavy blaster's 30 ammo, and then you need to take an action to reload it. So you can only get to three autofires before reloading, rather than eight.

So with that particular feat combination, when the Republic troops opened fire, each Green soldier would have gotten their one readied action and then two reaction shots, after which they would have run out of ammo. They also should have been shooting at a net penalty, not an infinite attack bonus, so they would have killed roughly 9 people each (taking out a total of about a hundred people) and since all their feats are offensive, they probably have a Reflex save of about 20 and thus would take hits from roughly a quarter of the people shooting at them, so 8-10 hits each, for a total of about 24d8 damage apiece.

[emeraldstreak]

Not a great example rules-wise, sadly, for a number of reasons.

Spoiler: Issues

Show

Issue #1 - As written, it appears that the troopers are required to all act simultaneously; normally, when the first group's Aid Anothers failed, the rest would just open fire. In this case, the GM ruled that every Aid Another action got to stack onto the Mandalorians, instead of rolling 400 attacks against them. 400 attacks without Aid Another, spread out evenly, attacks each Mandalorian 30-35 times. This is if we generously assume that the entire first fire team loses their Aid Another actions.

Issue #2 - The Green soldiers somehow each fired eight times using Return Fire, Combat Reflexes and Recurring Success.
2.1 Return Fire lets you make one return attack per encounter, and can't be used with heavy weapons, so we are presumably dealing with Heavy Blaster Rifles, rather than full heavy weapons.
2.2 Recurring Success lets you use a single feat one additional time per encounter. It does not double it. So it only grants one additional Return Fire, not a full (Dexterity) set. (In fact, according to a strict reading of the rules you can't apply it at all, since it can only be applied to feats that can only be used once, and Return Fire can be used more than once with Combat Reflexes in play.)
2.3 Autofire spends 10 of a heavy blaster's 30 ammo, and then you need to take an action to reload it. So you can only get to three autofires before reloading, rather than eight.

So with that particular feat combination, when the Republic troops opened fire, each Green soldier would have gotten their one readied action and then two reaction shots, after which they would have run out of ammo. They also should have been shooting at a net penalty, not an infinite attack bonus, so they would have killed roughly 9 people each (taking out a total of about a hundred people) and since all their feats are offensive, they probably have a Reflex save of about 20 and thus would take hits from roughly a quarter of the people shooting at them, so 8-10 hits each, for a total of about 24d8 damage apiece.

Err, what?

- there's zero reason (let alone a "rule" as you claim) that soldiers will abandon what they've been trained for in the frame of a single combat round

- the weapons Mandalorians use have 100 ammo capacity, there are modification rules in several books (you don't seem to be aware of them?)

- Recurring Success absolutely, adamantly, works with Return Fire

[Sparx MacGyver]

Not a great example rules-wise, sadly, for a number of reasons.

Spoiler: Issues

Show

Issue #1 - As written, it appears that the troopers are required to all act simultaneously; normally, when the first group's Aid Anothers failed, the rest would just open fire. In this case, the GM ruled that every Aid Another action got to stack onto the Mandalorians, instead of rolling 400 attacks against them. 400 attacks without Aid Another, spread out evenly, attacks each Mandalorian 30-35 times. This is if we generously assume that the entire first fire team loses their Aid Another actions.

Issue #2 - The Green soldiers somehow each fired eight times using Return Fire, Combat Reflexes and Recurring Success.
2.1 Return Fire lets you make one return attack per encounter, and can't be used with heavy weapons, so we are presumably dealing with Heavy Blaster Rifles, rather than full heavy weapons.
2.2 Recurring Success lets you use a single feat one additional time per encounter. It does not double it. So it only grants one additional Return Fire, not a full (Dexterity) set. (In fact, according to a strict reading of the rules you can't apply it at all, since it can only be applied to feats that can only be used once, and Return Fire can be used more than once with Combat Reflexes in play.)
2.3 Autofire spends 10 of a heavy blaster's 30 ammo, and then you need to take an action to reload it. So you can only get to three autofires before reloading, rather than eight.

So with that particular feat combination, when the Republic troops opened fire, each Green soldier would have gotten their one readied action and then two reaction shots, after which they would have run out of ammo. They also should have been shooting at a net penalty, not an infinite attack bonus, so they would have killed roughly 9 people each (taking out a total of about a hundred people) and since all their feats are offensive, they probably have a Reflex save of about 20 and thus would take hits from roughly a quarter of the people shooting at them, so 8-10 hits each, for a total of about 24d8 damage apiece.

Reading each of the feats/talents listed in the linked post, I almost missed it, but the special catch is for Return Fire, if they have Combat Reflexes, they can use it a number of times as their Dex bonus - but no more than once per enemy turn.

The only thing i would question is how many reactions they are allowed to have? My understanding is you can only perform things once per trigger, but that comes from AoO's. As for the ammo bit, well, without GM fiat, it's rather easy to get a weapon with a decent amount of shots without needing a power generator. One of my favorites is to take the Sidearm Blaster pistol (GaW pg 38) and slap an Extra Poiwer Source on it (S&V pg 41), now it gets 500 shots before it needs to reload. I'm sure you could do some other things to get an extra emplacement point here and there to gain some more shots on another weapon.

[RandomLunatic]

You get one reaction per "trigger" event, although most possible reactions have strict limits on how often you can use them.

But that's hardly the least of the problems in that example.

As Sparx says, Recurring Success only works on feats and talents usable 1/encounter. If you have Quick Draw, Return Fire is not usable once an encounter, so it's not eligible for Recurring Success.

In addition, Return Fire specifies you can make an attack against an enemy that misses you. Area attacks do not target creatures, they target areas. Hence the name. And areas rarely, if ever, make attacks. Because of this, Return Fire doesn't work too well with AoE weapons.