Who was the Rat angry with?

[Kish]

Wait, do they need a Cleric present to see what's happening on the Material Plane?

I'm not sure how that's relevant to the situation under debate. You're proposing that it would work for 1) each pantheon to debate and come to a conclusion on an outer plane, followed by 2) the high priests of Marduk, Dragon, and Odin relaying the results of that debate.

In this proposal, all the Twelve Gods learn is that the high priests of Marduk and Odin say "The Gods of the West vote Yes" and "The Gods of the North vote No."

[Jasdoif]

Wait, do they need a Cleric present to see what's happening on the Material Plane?

Probably not, since Veldrina isn't a cleric

More seriously...if they need someone present to vote, I'd guess it's at least easier to observe through a representative.

[Resileaf]

Well even if intra-pantheon conflict couldn't create a snarl, the gods don't particularly all like each other either. They could come to blows if they were in each others' presence, or maybe they wouldn't be able to find a completely neutral plane where they can interact with each other (I doubt Thor would want Loki to hang out in Valhalla, for example).

[hamishspence]

More seriously...if they need someone present to vote, I'd guess it's at least easier to observe through a representative.

"A worshipper" is a valid target for Remote Sensing, at least:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/div...#remoteSensing

[Fyraltari]

I'm not sure how that's relevant to the situation under debate. You're proposing that it would work for 1) each pantheon to debate and come to a conclusion on an outer plane, followed by 2) the high priests of Marduk, Dragon, and Odin relaying the results of that debate.

In this proposal, all the Twelve Gods learn is that the high priests of Marduk and Odin say "The Gods of the West vote Yes" and "The Gods of the North vote No."

Jasdoif objected that the gods would want transparency, which, in my opinion, is much more likely to mean "Don't you think Loki would want to be sure Odin is indeed conveying what the Northern Gods voted instead of just his?" rather than "Don't you think Nergal would want to know wether Njord said "Yes" or "No" this time?". Because why would the gods care about the going ons of a different pantheon, when their foreign policies amount to "each at home and the sheep will be well kept"?

Well even if intra-pantheon conflict couldn't create a snarl, the gods don't particularly all like each other either. They could come to blows if they were in each others' presence, or maybe they wouldn't be able to find a completely neutral plane where they can interact with each other (I doubt Thor would want Loki to hang out in Valhalla, for example).

Durkon describes his Pantheon as "pretty much one big family" and Hilgya expects to go to Valhalla should she secape Hel. The Twelve looks to be able to work together more or less seamlessly going by Azure City in general and the Sapphire Guard in particular. According to Malack though, the Western Gods probably would need to stay away from each other.

Edit:

Probably not, since Veldrina isn't a cleric

More seriously...if they need someone present to vote, I'd guess it's at least easier to observe through a representative.

"A worshipper" is a valid target for Remote Sensing, at least:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/div...#remoteSensing

Good enough for me!

[Resileaf]

Durkon describes his Pantheon as "pretty much one big family" and Hilgya expects to go to Valhalla should she secape Hel. The Twelve looks to be able to work together more or less seamlessly going by Azure City in general and the Sapphire Guard in particular. According to Malack though, the Western Gods probably would need to stay away from each other.

One big family where two family members constantly come to blows, and another who is currently scheming to take over the entire family after her dad fooled her into losing all her worshippers and power. Also one of them is kind of a mad, feral wolf?

I dunno. I think Durkon may have been embellishing things a tad.

[Fyraltari]

One big family where two family members constantly come to blows, and another who is currently scheming to take over the entire family after her dad fooled her into losing all her worshippers and power. Also one of them is kind of a mad, feral wolf?

I dunno. I think Durkon may have been embellishing things a tad.

Sounds about right. Is your family any different?

You have a point though. (Even though Loki and Thor seem to hang out peacefully most of the time.)

[Prinygod]

Sounds about right. Is your family any different?

You have a point though. (Even though Loki and Thor seem to hang out peacefully most of the time.)

Norse mythology is a weird. The gods know that ragnorok is coming, they know how it starts and why, they even know whom kills whom. But they are powerless to stop it and act as they would if they didn't know. I am guessing that attitude carries over to oots. They know Loki will trick and betray them if he gets the chance, but he hasn't done it yet so let's have a picnic.

[Fyraltari]

Norse mythology is a weird. The gods know that ragnorok is coming, they know how it starts and why, they even know whom kills whom. But they are powerless to stop it and act as they would if they didn't know. I am guessing that attitude carries over to oots. They know Loki will trick and betray them if he gets the chance, but he hasn't done it yet so let's have a picnic.

I think it's more that they eventually discover that something they have already done will eventually bite them in the ass in the long run.

Odin & Co did not necessarily know yet that imprisonning Loki would lead to his taking part in Ragnarök, but learned about it when he was already imprisonned, for example.

[Prinygod]

I think it's more that they eventually discover that something they have already done will eventually bite them in the ass in the long run.

Odin & Co did not necessarily know yet that imprisonning Loki would lead to his taking part in Ragnarök, but learned about it when he was already imprisonned, for example.

Its been a long time since I read Norse mythology, but even in your example, why not finish Loki off? There may be a specific reason why they don't, but I seem to have the impression that not even God's can change fate, and know better than to try.

[Fyraltari]

Its been a long time since I read Norse mythology, but even in your example, why not finish Loki off? There may be a specific reason why they don't, but I seem to have the impression that not even God's can change fate, and know better than to try.

hmm, you are right.

Then again, wouldn't killing Loki before Ragnarök, just send him to Hel and so amount to freeing him?

[Kornaki]

I think everyone has kind of missed that Rat was eventually going to get those souls anyway. If Azure City wasn't sacked and they unmade the world to re-imprison the snarl, he would get those souls (in fact, that's exactly how Hel is planning on getting hers). If they don't unmake the world, they will die eventually and he will get them. Long term, his power is the same no matter when they die (or worse if they die now, since they can't make more Rat worshipping babies). Hel's special case isn't that she was getting a sudden infusion of souls right now, it's that she was getting a sudden infusion of souls she otherwise would have never had access to.

[Fyraltari]

Long term, his power is the same no matter when they die (or worse if they die now, since they can't make more Rat worshipping babies).

But that's just the thing. until the Fall of azure City, Rat was (one supposes) still hoping to get the Dark One to calm down and so save this world from inevitable destruction. So now either they are still stuck in the Circle (and Rat doesn't like that) or he will get significntly less worshipper (and thus souls) than before because there arre fewer worshippers of his to teach the future generations and fewer places for them to freely worship him in left.

There's also the degree of personnal insult ("HE'S BREAKING MY STUFF!"), that would be hypocritical coming from one of the Sapphire Guard's patrons but that wouldn't be surprising either.

[Kornaki]

But that's just the thing. until the Fall of azure City, Rat was (one supposes) still hoping to get the Dark One to calm down and so save this world from inevitable destruction. So now either they are still stuck in the Circle (and Rat doesn't like that) or he will get significntly less worshipper (and thus souls) than before because there arre fewer worshippers of his to teach the future generations and fewer places for them to freely worship him in left.

There's also the degree of personnal insult ("HE'S BREAKING MY STUFF!"), that would be hypocritical coming from one of the Sapphire Guard's patrons but that wouldn't be surprising either.

I think you misunderstood me. A claim was made that Rat should be happy that he got this big power boost, just like Hel was trying to get. The people trying to explain away that his power boost wasn't as big as Hel's, or wasn't as well timed as Hel's, are missing the fact that he didn't get any power boost at all. There was no upside to his worshippers getting slaughtered, and there are obvious downsides, so I agree that he should be mad.

[Fyraltari]

I think you misunderstood me. A claim was made that Rat should be happy that he got this big power boost, just like Hel was trying to get. The people trying to explain away that his power boost wasn't as big as Hel's, or wasn't as well timed as Hel's, are missing the fact that he didn't get any power boost at all. There was no upside to his worshippers getting slaughtered, and there are obvious downsides, so I agree that he should be mad.

My apologies.

[KorvinStarmast]

but I seem to have the impression that not even God's can change fate, and know better than to try.

The Norns/Fate keep on weaving the fabric of the future. There was a mild allusion to this by Odin at the Godsmoot.

I see worlds within worlds, and yarn winding yarn

The yarn would be linked to the Norns/Fate/Destiny.

_{The origin of the name norn is uncertain, it may derive from a word meaning "to twine" and which would refer to their twining the thread of fate}

[Fyraltari]

I assumed the "yarn windind yarn" was the Snarl.

[Peelee]

I assumed the "yarn windind yarn" was the Snarl.

Clearly it's the Snarl making a Snarl, Jr. Which, in turn, will turn out to be the MitD.

[Fyraltari]

Clearly it's the Snarl making a Snarl, Jr. Which, in turn, will turn out to be the MitD.

I was thinking of building the World Within the Rift, but your thing works too.

*Watches out for angry grey wolves*

[Peelee]

I was thinking of building the World Within the Rift, but your thing works too.

*Watches out for angry grey wolves*

Those are also the MitD.

[Chronos]

The Gods of the North do just all get together in Valhalla to decide how they're voting. That's precisely why they need the Godsmoot.

Remember, the gods in OotS exist, but they don't exist in the same way that mortals do. They're dependent on the belief and faith of their worshipers. So when gods interact is when their worshipers interact: For instance, Thor fighting Sutur is a manifestation of Thor's followers fighting Sutur's followers. And so for an entire pantheon to have a group discussion, it's necessary for their significant worshipers to also get together for a group discussion.

[Fyraltari]

The Gods of the North do just all get together in Valhalla to decide how they're voting. That's precisely why they need the Godsmoot.

Remember, the gods in OotS exist, but they don't exist in the same way that mortals do. They're dependent on the belief and faith of their worshipers. So when gods interact is when their worshipers interact: For instance, Thor fighting Sutur is a manifestation of Thor's followers fighting Sutur's followers. And so for an entire pantheon to have a group discussion, it's necessary for their significant worshipers to also get together for a group discussion.

Err, no. Hel was contacting the demi-gods to negotiate while her only worshipper was waiting inside the Mechane's hull, not meeting with Hermod's Priestess.

The Gods are dependent on what mortals think they are like, but the idea that they cannot act unless they have one follower mirroring their movements on the Material is ridiculous. How would they even build more worlds?

[Vendanna]

Rat was angry with Loki, because he got "Ratted" out. :v

[Prinygod]

Rat was angry with Loki, because he got "Ratted" out. :v

Wouldn't Loki be angry since it was the rat "Rat" whom ratted him out to that cat TDO?