Dexterity is the worst dump stat - potential fix?

[pygmybatrider]

Hey mate,

I feel your frustration - Dex definitely feels like the God stat in 5e - but at the same time this particular complaint seems very specific and also very solvable.

You’ve got a character with 3 great stats and one above average. You could easily drop your 16s to 14s, your 19 to a 16, and have a workable build with enough points to boost Dex high enough to get a decent AC. You’ve purposefully not done that, however - clearly emphasising offence over defence. It’s tough then to turn around and say “I don’t have enough AC”, when you’ve intentionally built away from a high AC.

Additionally, all your issues can potentially be solved at level 7, either by a 1-level dip into Fighter or a Cleric domain with heavy armour, or by continuing with one of your two classes and taking the moderately armoured feat. This is therefore a moment-in-time problem rather than an unsolvable issue with dexterity in 5e.

For what it’s worth I’ve seen the idea of using Strength instead of Dexterity for medium armour floated a couple of times. Never played with it myself but it doesn’t seem OP to me. You could potentially ask your DM to do the same with light armour as another solution to your problem. Seems a little trickier to justify though, and if I was your DM, I’d suggest you try one of the above routes available to you before Str for light armour.

[PitaChip]

Hey mate,

I feel your frustration - Dex definitely feels like the God stat in 5e - but at the same time this particular complaint seems very specific and also very solvable.

You’ve got a character with 3 great stats and one above average. You could easily drop your 16s to 14s, your 19 to a 16, and have a workable build with enough points to boost Dex high enough to get a decent AC. You’ve purposefully not done that, however - clearly emphasising offence over defence. It’s tough then to turn around and say “I don’t have enough AC”, when you’ve intentionally built away from a high AC.

Additionally, all your issues can potentially be solved at level 7, either by a 1-level dip into Fighter or a Cleric domain with heavy armour, or by continuing with one of your two classes and taking the moderately armoured feat. This is therefore a moment-in-time problem rather than an unsolvable issue with dexterity in 5e.

For what it’s worth I’ve seen the idea of using Strength instead of Dexterity for medium armour floated a couple of times. Never played with it myself but it doesn’t seem OP to me. You could potentially ask your DM to do the same with light armour as another solution to your problem. Seems a little trickier to justify though, and if I was your DM, I’d suggest you try one of the above routes available to you before Str for light armour.

Hey, thank you for the feedback! The problem I'm having isn't that my Dexterity is too low, it's that the AC I have is garbage. Now, when I say that, I fully understand that many would say that it's saying the same thing. However, I still firmly believe that being "nimble" isn't the only way to avoid attacks that damage you. I think using strength instead of Dex is a good idea for medium armor, especially since medium armors are capped out at +2 Strength mod. I don't think it would make any sense to have a 12 +5 Strength light armor option, since obviously, the light armor options that add modifiers were intended for dexterity- at least thematically. But I want to be stumbly. I want to fail my dexterity saving throws because of that pesky -2. I feel my character will be amply more fun to play when he wins after having much difficulty getting there. And actually, I had planned my level 4 feat to be "resilient", adding +1 to my Wisdom and proficiency in Wisdom saves (which is going to be much, much better). But, like I had said before, what about the "booky, awkward wizard" archetype? I think this mechanic alone is stopping a very prominent archetype from emerging in this game. Low Dex wizards have almost no hope, especially if they have the d6 hit die and an AC of 10. Say the Wizard has a Dex of 7, like I do. Mage armor does nothing but add +1 to his armor, and 11 is just as useless as 10 is, really. Shield would give him a REASONABLE AC for one round, but he's having to blow through his spell slots just to be viable in that sense. Yes, spellcasters are supposed to stay out of danger for the most part- but is it really not fair to give that Wizard a 13 in AC, making 18 with shield so that he's not stuck in this terrible circumstance? I mean with medium armor, (I use medium armor because it has the most options) the only difference between hide armor (12 + max 2) and breastplate (14 + max 2) is the cost. Why not charge the Wizard out the wazoo for this? 350gp for a static AC of 13? I think it's worth it. Going from hide to breastplate has literally no downsides except you're 390 gold pieces out. It's just a straight +2 buff.

My big issue is that martial classes get easy access to dump stats. Martial classes utilize all the "important" stats already. So they get to dump Intelligence; they get to dump Charisma.. And what do they lose for it? ESSENTIALLY NOTHING! There's literally no big function of the game that makes them "cover up" their dump stat like you all are suggesting I do. There's no "Well the barbarian should dip into warlock so they don't have this horrible charisma defficiency." No- they literally just get away with it. Wizards? Spellcasters? on the other hand- They depend on those easy dump-stats as basic functionalities of their class. Their spellcasting uses Charisma/Intelligence. So they don't have the luxury to get rid of it, so what do they have to get rid of? Physical stats. You can't dump Constitution unless you're crazy, and you can't dump Dexterity unless you're crazy. So you have Strength. Literally your only option is Strength. Great job introducing character diversity, huh? Why isn't Dexterity like strength in this way, though? Why is Dexterity-based armor seen as a necessity instead of a strength to a class? There SHOULD be an option that allows low-armor classes to take these low Dex stats while not having to suffer this mile-long list of penalties. I don't see why a static AC in the light armor division is so terrible. 13 is not a high armor class. 13 is barely passable, and the fact that this wizard is having to GROVEL at the feet of these forums for scraps at the table of barbarians and fighters is gross.

Also, I had briefly mentioned this in my initial post, but I don't want my character bogged down with the image of heavy armor. Obviously I can't just take the stats of heavy armor and pretend that I'm not wearing it. Plus, if I have proficiency in heavy armor thanks to a Cleric domain, I would immediately jump from the 10 that I'm at to 18, provided that I have the money. However, I just cannot envision the character I created (who has been a slave his entire life) willingly putting himself in a restricting environment now that he's free.

I really really hope that I don't come across as just complaining that my character has problems, because that's not what it is at all. I really think this is a fundamental flaw in the way that light and medium armor is built in 5e. I'm only really bringing this up to see if I can get some insight as to what some others think. By no means am I trying to beg or argue with anyone. However, I'm pretty passionate about this topic right now lol. I hope you agree with my sentiment, I look forward to seeing your response!

[pygmybatrider]

Hey, thank you for the feedback! The problem I'm having isn't that my Dexterity is too low, it's that the AC I have is garbage. Now, when I say that, I fully understand that many would say that it's saying the same thing. However, I still firmly believe that being "nimble" isn't the only way to avoid attacks that damage you. I think using strength instead of Dex is a good idea for medium armor, especially since medium armors are capped out at +2 Strength mod. I don't think it would make any sense to have a 12 +5 Strength light armor option, since obviously, the light armor options that add modifiers were intended for dexterity- at least thematically. But I want to be stumbly. I want to fail my dexterity saving throws because of that pesky -2. I feel my character will be amply more fun to play when he wins after having much difficulty getting there. And actually, I had planned my level 4 feat to be "resilient", adding +1 to my Wisdom and proficiency in Wisdom saves (which is going to be much, much better). But, like I had said before, what about the "booky, awkward wizard" archetype? I think this mechanic alone is stopping a very prominent archetype from emerging in this game. Low Dex wizards have almost no hope, especially if they have the d6 hit die and an AC of 10. Say the Wizard has a Dex of 7, like I do. Mage armor does nothing but add +1 to his armor, and 11 is just as useless as 10 is, really. Shield would give him a REASONABLE AC for one round, but he's having to blow through his spell slots just to be viable in that sense. Yes, spellcasters are supposed to stay out of danger for the most part- but is it really not fair to give that Wizard a 13 in AC, making 18 with shield so that he's not stuck in this terrible circumstance? I mean with medium armor, (I use medium armor because it has the most options) the only difference between hide armor (12 + max 2) and breastplate (14 + max 2) is the cost. Why not charge the Wizard out the wazoo for this? 350gp for a static AC of 13? I think it's worth it. Going from hide to breastplate has literally no downsides except you're 390 gold pieces out. It's just a straight +2 buff.

I don't really have an issue with homebrewing a new light armour that has a static AC of 13.

I do sort of have an issue with saying it's the only way for your character to achieve a higher AC.

My big issue is that martial classes get easy access to dump stats. Martial classes utilize all the "important" stats already. So they get to dump Intelligence; they get to dump Charisma.. And what do they lose for it? ESSENTIALLY NOTHING! There's literally no big function of the game that makes them "cover up" their dump stat like you all are suggesting I do. There's no "Well the barbarian should dip into warlock so they don't have this horrible charisma defficiency."

I think the problem here is that dump stats are only dump stats if you don't have a use for them.

A character wearing light armour has a use for Dex as it is the only way they can raise their AC by RAW.

A barbarian has no use for Int, Cha, or Wisdom except for skills/saves, so they can safely dump them. It's not a fair comparison. If a barbarian dumped Dex, they would be in the same position as you are now - having to make up for it in some way, either by pumping Con to still end up at a piddly max of 15, or by dealing with medium armour at a base 15 - Dex. If a barbarian dumped Str or Con, they would be in a whole world of hurt.

You've chosen to dump a stat that your character has a use for. That confers penalties.

No- they literally just get away with it. Wizards? Spellcasters? on the other hand- They depend on those easy dump-stats as basic functionalities of their class. Their spellcasting uses Charisma/Intelligence. So they don't have the luxury to get rid of it, so what do they have to get rid of? Physical stats. You can't dump Constitution unless you're crazy, and you can't dump Dexterity unless you're crazy. So you have Strength. Literally your only option is Strength. Great job introducing character diversity, huh?

Casters can safely dump whichever 2 mental stats aren't their casting stat. Warlocks don't need int or wis. Clerics don't need int or cha. Wizards don't need cha or wis.

Your character is an exception here in that it is a multiclass character using 2 different casting stats. This makes any build significantly more MAD than it otherwise would be and is usually discouraged wherever possible, for exactly the problem you are now experiencing - it makes it very difficult to build a working character.

Why isn't Dexterity like strength in this way, though? Why is Dexterity-based armor seen as a necessity instead of a strength to a class? There SHOULD be an option that allows low-armor classes to take these low Dex stats while not having to suffer this mile-long list of penalties. I don't see why a static AC in the light armor division is so terrible. 13 is not a high armor class. 13 is barely passable, and the fact that this wizard is having to GROVEL at the feet of these forums for scraps at the table of barbarians and fighters is gross.

Why should there be - thematically speaking? Mechanically, I totally understand your desire to play a low Dex, no heavy armour character without getting smashed in the face over and over.

Dexterity makes sense as a modifier for light armour. You are wearing maybe a quarter inch of leather. Your reflexes and agility are going to determine your chance of getting hit, not how big your muscles are or how far you can throw a bag of flour.

You're essentially asking for a change in the way ability scores work in 5e. I'm struggling a bit to make an accurate comparison for you, but consider the following two scenarios:

Why should an Eldritch Knight have to have a high Intelligence if he wants to be a competent spellcaster? Wizards get to have all of their attacks key off their one main stat. An Eldritch Knight should be able to choose Strength or Dexterity as their spellcasting modifier. Do you agree with this?

Why should a Cleric have to pump Strength to make heavy weapon attacks? Literally every other class has to use Strength if they want to make an attack with heavy weapons. But my Cleric isn't strong. I want him to be unable to climb a tree, and I want him to lose arm wrestles with goblins. Why should I be punished for this? Can I not use Dexterity to attack with my heavy weapons instead?

Also, I had briefly mentioned this in my initial post, but I don't want my character bogged down with the image of heavy armor. Obviously I can't just take the stats of heavy armor and pretend that I'm not wearing it. Plus, if I have proficiency in heavy armor thanks to a Cleric domain, I would immediately jump from the 10 that I'm at to 18, provided that I have the money. However, I just cannot envision the character I created (who has been a slave his entire life) willingly putting himself in a restricting environment now that he's free.

You absolutely can take the stats of heavy armour and pretend you're not wearing it. Flavour it as reinforced leather or a magical forcefield or something. As a DM, I would be much more amiable to the thought of giving you an AC of 18 in not-plate (that you have proficiency in) than making up not only an entirely new item for your character but going directly against the design implementation of armour in 5e.

I really really hope that I don't come across as just complaining that my character has problems, because that's not what it is at all. I really think this is a fundamental flaw in the way that light and medium armor is built in 5e. I'm only really bringing this up to see if I can get some insight as to what some others think. By no means am I trying to beg or argue with anyone. However, I'm pretty passionate about this topic right now lol. I hope you agree with my sentiment, I look forward to seeing your response!

Hahaha I can see that it's an issue close to your heart. It's not an easy topic because Dex to AC is so ingrained across 5th edition. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I think that if you want to make your character work without the risk of rubbing your DM the wrong way by asking for more help when you're already multiclassing 2 homebrew classes and working with above average stats, you should take a real look at them so you are at least aware of the other options.

[Composer99]

I know you don't want to come across as just offering sour grapes, but it really does come across that way. Especially this grousing:

and the fact that this wizard is having to GROVEL at the feet of these forums for scraps at the table of barbarians and fighters is gross.

I mean, really? Even at 1st level, 3 times a day a wizard can put a whole mass of enemies to sleep, or blind them, or push them around (thunderwave), never mind what said wizard can do to individual foes or outside of combat. And a wizard out of spell slot dakka can still ping with cantrips or be effective outside of combat with them. Fighters and barbarians can hit enemies, grapple them, and shove them individually.

And the discrepancy just gets worse as you gain levels: literally reshaping the battlefield, teleporting, flight, summoning creatures. Meanwhile the fighters and barbarians are doing the same thing they were at 1st level, only more of it.

Yes, fighters and barbarians have other advantages wizards don't, especially in the realm of durability, but the bottom line is that it is nonsense to suggest wizards are "grovelling".

Your wizard looks to be able to do both the wizard things and the fighter/barbarian things, but there's a price to be paid for that versatility somewhere, and that is your low AC because you dumped Dexterity. And yet you are complaining that, because of character-building choices you made - choosing a "squishy" class, choosing to have a low Dexterity, and building to operate in melee without wearing heavy armour - your character's fragile AC is the game system's fault?

Put another way: the game system assumes that if you're wearing light armour, most of your defence is actually consisting of "don't get hit in the first place" by means of your natural evasiveness (aka Dexterity). The armour itself is there to protect you from glancing blows that could cause injury if you weren't wearing it. (I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine a "glancing blow" from, say, a claymore could potentially still be very serious.) With that assumption in mind, you are free to build your character any way you wish, but it simply follows naturally that dumping Dexterity makes you worse at avoiding being hit by weapon attacks whilst wearing light armour.

Now, having said all that, if you want to homebrew a light armour that gives a static AC of 13, and your DM agrees to have it in play, by all means, do so and have fun! Starting at level 6, you can certainly justify having it in your possession right off the bat. That's what the game is about, after all.

I would add that, along with a homebrew solution, I would recommend looking to a tactical solution to your character's relative fragility. Working with your allies, you should look for ways to enter combat such that you're unlikely to be attacked in the first place, because your imposing allies in heavy armour are keeping their attention. (It probably helps if you don't look like a stereotypical wizard, so as not to immediately draw fire because "kill the casters first!")

[demonslayerelf]

I agree with all of the above people. However, instead of pointing out that everything is working as it should, I'm going to do two things; Point out problems in your 'solution' for Dex being the god stat of 5e(Because it is), and offer solutions for your character in particular.

First, the Dex problem. Even if you created Light and Medium armor with static AC's, nothing would change. Yeah that 13 AC is going to just do so much for you, </Sarcasm> but most of the armors, and unarmored defense(With or without a feature) add dexterity to their AC. Now, if you were saying all armor should be static, with 10(Unarmored w/o feature), 13(Light), 15(Medium), 18(Heavy), and whatever else; You're getting somewhere. But now you have to retool the entire game's attack bonuses to match, and dexterity is STILL the best stat for attacking first and attacking hard(Particularly at a distance), and Dex saves are much more common(And usually much nastier) than, for instance, Strength saves.

So, ignoring the thematic problems of being a "shifty fighter" versus a "knight in shining armor"(Because either way to interpret your solution, this distinction is ignored entirely now), the solution still fails to address the problem either way you take it, and it still wouldn't help you that much.


Now, I'm going to help you out with your problem specifically, with a little bit of reflavouring, a little bit of rules-ing, and a little bit of homebrewish stuff.

Reflavouring options;
You're wearing "medium armor," which is actually just magically hardened and stiffened clothes/robes/whatever.

You don't just have a bound weapon, you have a bound armor. It's not a big focus though, it just means that your leathers are actually as hard as steel. Unfortunately, the magic kind of hums a bit when things get quiet, so you still get that stealth disadvantage, and it's still not that easy to move around in.

Your skin/scales/hide is so thick, and so bulky, that it works just as well as heavy armor.(I dunno what race your character is, but adjust as you will to fit unless it literally can't.)

Rules-ing Options;
Take Swordmage as your first level, Scale Mail armor, done.

Take the Battleblade Swordmage subclass. Proficiency in heavy armor, wear some heavy armor, decorate it to look different, like Caduceus Clay's moss beetle armor.

Ask the DM to use a different race's stats, like a Dwarf, without actually changing race(They're all balanced, right? ;P)

Homebrew/Interesting Options:
You have a special magic pendant. No attunement, once/initiative, it summons a phantasmal blue barrier around you; Functions as heavy armor while in combat(Have fun with those thieves and ambushes :P)

You've been blessed by one of them angels, and have a completely permanent Shield of Faith spell. Since it was cast by an angel, it's actually a +5 AC. Go nuts! Downside; Anything that removes or detects magic.

You know that angel suggestion? Well, it just so happens that Asmodeus overheard me typing that. Whoops! But he liked the idea, so he took his own spin on it. Your skin has been blessed to be as hard as iron! Imagine that permanent Barkskin effect. Downside: Just wait until you get sniffed by a Pally.

Etc.