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    Default Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    (This is a fairly high procedure thread; please read the entire instructions carefully before posting. Thanks.)

    Ever have a simple, straight-forward rules question that you can’t figure out the answer to? Ask it here. No question is too simple. No more worrying about whether your question is “worth” starting a thread. Ask here and receive an answer. You are, of course, welcome to start a thread for your question, and if you think your question is subject to many interpretations or will start a debate, you are encouraged to start a new thread for it.

    This thread will serve as a catch-all for simple, discreet questions that can be answered quickly according to the RAW (Rules As Written). This thread is for all simple RAW questions about Pathfinder.

    If your question is about D&D 4e, ask here
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    {The first several versions of this thread seemed to run pretty efficiently, but if you have any comments about how this thread could be improved please PM me.}

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Unanswered from previous thread

    Q 1

    Regarding the Nightmare Dread's "Martial Terror" class feature

    If both a Maneuver and a Terror allow for a Saving Throw, which takes place first, if any?

    For example, initiating Ravaging Blow while channeling Overwhelming Fear, the order would be:

    A) Target makes a Will save vs Ravaging Blow and then a Fort save vs Overwhelming Fear
    B) Target makes a Fort save vs Overwhelming Fear and then a Will save vs Ravaging Blow
    C) Target makes both saves at the same time, without any order of priority

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q2

    Does PF have Feats (or another way to get the same effect) similar to Swift Hunter, Sacred Outlaw, etc - to keep some class abilities up to par while multiclassing?

    Q2b - is there a list somewhere?
    Last edited by Elkad; 2018-10-17 at 05:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A2: Yes. Boon companion allows you to treat your animal companion as 4 levels higher up to your effective character level. Prestigious Spellcaster restores lost spell casting ability due to prestige classes. Just as some examples.

    A2 b: Unfortunately, none that I could find.
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Elkad View Post
    Q2

    Does PF have Feats (or another way to get the same effect) similar to Swift Hunter, Sacred Outlaw, etc - to keep some class abilities up to par while multiclassing?

    Q2b - is there a list somewhere?
    A2 (partial)
    While I don't know if there are such feats in general, there's a pair of feats that enormously reduces the pain of taking PrCs that lose one or more levels of spellcasting: Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster. The former is a prerequisite for the latter, and Prestigious Spellcaster is often quite worth spending 2 feats to get--think of all those 3.5e PrCs that had fun abilities, but were unwise picks because they lost too many caster levels. That said, there is at least one such feat in official PF stuff: Shapeshifting Hunter, which makes Ranger and Druid mutually stack specifically for Wild Shape uses and when you get Favored Enemy advances. There seem to be several third-party feats of a similar nature as well. I don't think there's an official compiled list of such things.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q3

    does All-Consuming Swing stack with the Cleaving Smash Weapon Trick for tripple vital strike damage?
    Last edited by Boggartbae; 2018-10-18 at 09:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Unanswered from previous thread

    Q 1

    Regarding the Nightmare Dread's "Martial Terror" class feature

    If both a Maneuver and a Terror allow for a Saving Throw, which takes place first, if any?

    For example, initiating Ravaging Blow while channeling Overwhelming Fear, the order would be:

    A) Target makes a Will save vs Ravaging Blow and then a Fort save vs Overwhelming Fear
    B) Target makes a Fort save vs Overwhelming Fear and then a Will save vs Ravaging Blow
    C) Target makes both saves at the same time, without any order of priority
    A1: I see no ruling either way in either of those abilities, and I see no "order of operations" in the CRB regarding saving throws. So the answer is "GM Call."

    Quote Originally Posted by Boggartbae View Post
    Q3

    does All-Consuming Swing stack with the Cleaving Smash Weapon Trick for tripple vital strike damage?
    A3: No. Both use virtually the same the same wording. Since you're already using vital strike, you cannot apply the same feat to the same attack more than once. Even if it did, it would be double not triple.
    Last edited by Calthropstu; 2018-10-20 at 09:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q4

    Bleed Damage.
    How does it work? According to the rules, a creature currently bleeding takes said bleed damage at the start of its turn.

    a) However, the attack inflicting bleed deals "bleed damage". Is this actual damage added to the attack, or simply the "stacks" of bleed it applies to a target?
    b) IF it does add to the damage inflicted by the attack, can it crit and does that crit (double "bleed" damage) carry over to the periodic damage inflicted?

    Some examples of bleed sources:
    - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/...ities/wounding
    - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial...k-combat-tengu
    - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/...dletting-kukri
    Last edited by kkplx; 2018-10-21 at 03:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q5
    Can familiars gain retroactive skill points from Int increases?

    Q6
    Can familiars capable of speech use your ranks in linguistics to learn new languages, and if so, does this mean raven familiars can learn new languages via the aforementioned method?
    Last edited by frogglesmash; 2018-10-23 at 05:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by kkplx View Post
    Q4

    Bleed Damage.
    How does it work? According to the rules, a creature currently bleeding takes said bleed damage at the start of its turn.

    a) However, the attack inflicting bleed deals "bleed damage". Is this actual damage added to the attack, or simply the "stacks" of bleed it applies to a target?
    b) IF it does add to the damage inflicted by the attack, can it crit and does that crit (double "bleed" damage) carry over to the periodic damage inflicted?

    Some examples of bleed sources:
    - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/...ities/wounding
    - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial...k-combat-tengu
    - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/...dletting-kukri
    A4: Bleed takes place at the beginning of your turn, not on the attack itself. Bleed does not stack with itself. If multiple bleed sources deal damage, the worst is applied, unless the bleed deals different type of damage in which case it can be concurrent. As such, bleed cannot crit.

    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    Q5
    Can familiars gain retroactive skill points from Int increases?

    Q6
    Can familiars capable of speech use your ranks in linguistics to learn new languages, and if so, does this mean raven familiars can learn new languages via the aforementioned method?
    A5: Yes. The rules for increasing intelligence apply to all equally.

    A6: Familiars capable of speech use YOUR ranks in linguistics gaining YOUR languages. They could in theory take ranks in linguistics and be able to speak languages you don't know, but since it uses either your linguistics or its linguistics (not both) I feel like a gm would be well within their rights to state "No."

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q7
    Does Gift of Consumption work with harmless spells?
    Last edited by TiaC; 2018-10-27 at 03:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by TiaC View Post
    Q7
    Does Gift of Consumption work with harmless spells?
    A7
    By RAW, it doesn't have to be a harmful spell, though you might want to check FAQ and such. But I'm genuinely curious what harmless spells require a Fortitude save, that would be worth it.
    Last edited by ezekielraiden; 2018-10-27 at 05:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    A7
    By RAW, it doesn't have to be a harmful spell, though you might want to check FAQ and such. But I'm genuinely curious what harmless spells require a Fortitude save, that would be worth it.
    There's a number of buffs that would be worthwhile to get double effect. It's already a decent hex without getting double effect from Resist Energy, Deathless, Strong Jaw, Legendary Proportions, Lightning Lash, and a few others.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by TiaC View Post
    There's a number of buffs that would be worthwhile to get double effect. It's already a decent hex without getting double effect from Resist Energy, Deathless, Strong Jaw, Legendary Proportions, Lightning Lash, and a few others.
    This would be why I don't generally give any answer I'm not really sure of. I just...why would anyone ever roll to *resist* Protection from Energy? (I can in fact envision a scenario but like...it's both contrived and requires IMO abusive metagame thinking).

    But yeah I am fairly convinced the RAI differs from the very narrowly read RAW here. The only possible quibble could be the use of the word "requires." You aren't required to resist a buff, and in fact you rarely even elect to. So that word could imply that the spell definitely must MAKE you roll a Fort save, as opposed to simply offering the option to do so.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    This would be why I don't generally give any answer I'm not really sure of. I just...why would anyone ever roll to *resist* Protection from Energy? (I can in fact envision a scenario but like...it's both contrived and requires IMO abusive metagame thinking).

    But yeah I am fairly convinced the RAI differs from the very narrowly read RAW here. The only possible quibble could be the use of the word "requires." You aren't required to resist a buff, and in fact you rarely even elect to. So that word could imply that the spell definitely must MAKE you roll a Fort save, as opposed to simply offering the option to do so.
    That would make it work on no spells; you can always voluntarily fail a saving throw, even if it would obviously be a really bad idea.

    (I concur that RAI is that Gift of Consumption is meant as a curse, not a buff duplicator.)
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q8 I've seen it mentioned in various places that a buckler can be used as an improvised weapon. I know it cannot itself be used to shield bash but does this "common knowledge" have any basis in the rules?
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A7: Harmless spells by definition don't require a save, so the curse wouldn't work on them.

    (harmless)

    The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.
    A8: This is a consequence of the fact that, unlike light and heavy shields, bucklers aren't on the weapons table. Anything not there (or there but having the improvised quality) can only be an improvised weapon if you try to attack with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Psyren has the gist (and rules text) of what I meant. Harmless effects do not demand a saving throw, they merely permit one if the target feels like making one. You don't get that kind of choice with (say) fireball or ghoul touch.

    It's the difference between not taking an optional thing, and intentionally failing a required thing. You have to opt into a save vs. harmless effects, but you are permitted to do so. You cannot, even if you want to, opt out of saving vs. a non-harmless spell, but you can decide to just auto-fail it without bothering to roll; mechanically you've still done the requisite act either way, and thus effects which trigger from you needing to make a save or from failing a save would still trigger. Since the curse clearly uses the word "requires" rather than "allows," harmless effects would appear to be excluded, even in a very narrow RAW reading.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q9

    The Shadow Conjuration spell can create an illusory creature independent of its ability to copy summon spells.

    When a non-summoned creature is made by shadow conjuration when does the conjured creature act?

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A9 clarification: what specific spell are you duplicating to make that creature, if not a summoning spell of some kind? A creation spell?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    A9 clarification: what specific spell are you duplicating to make that creature, if not a summoning spell of some kind? A creation spell?
    Not duplicating any spell. Shadow conjuration itself says it can create quasi real etc of "one or more creatures, objects, or force" right there in the first paragraph.

    Then in the third paragraph it details the effects of duplicating a creature.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    The second sentence depicts specifically how it does this though - by duplicating a Conjuration (summoning) or Conjuration (creation) spell. It's not carte blanche to create your own spell or mimic something outside those parameters.

    Given that we read it fundamentally differently, this one might require a separate thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The second sentence depicts specifically how it does this though - by duplicating a Conjuration (summoning) or Conjuration (creation) spell. It's not carte blanche to create your own spell or mimic something outside those parameters.

    Given that we read it fundamentally differently, this one might require a separate thread.
    Viola. Actually asked the question after the thread was already made.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q10

    Ally is unconscuous/helpless on the floor. I want to move such ally during a combat.

    a) I must roll CMB for Drag/Reposition/Bullrush, correct?
    b) The ally has a 0 Dex, that means a -5 to CMD but Str, BAB, Deflection and so on still affect the CMD, right?
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q11:
    When a let's say CG-Charakter uses a scroll of Raise Dead, made by a LE-Charakter, the still-dead gets notice of the aligmnent of the person who tries to raise him, but in this case is it CG or LE?

    Q12:
    Can a Rogue/Monk make a combined flurry of blows & sneak attack?
    Last edited by Elvensilver; 2018-11-06 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Typo

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvensilver View Post
    Q12: Can a Rogue/Monk make a combined flurry of blows & sneak attack?

    A12: Yes, so long as the opponent is subject to sneak attack on every attack (is flanked and does not have Improved Uncanny Dodge or the equivalent, or otherwise denied Dex bonus). This is not necessarily always the case - if the sneak attacking monk was invisible (not greater invisible) before he attacked, he'd only get sneak attack on the first attack, all other things being equal.

    The only real reason why this might not happen is if there was a conflict in action type, but so long as the conditions allow it, this question is no different than 'can someone with multiple attacks sneak attack on all of them'? Flurry of Blows, like any multiple-attack action, is a full-attack action, and sneak attack does not have an action affixed to it.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvensilver View Post
    Q11:
    When a let's say CG-Charakter uses a scroll of Raise Dead, made by a LE-Charakter, the still-dead gets notice of the aligmnent of the person who tries to raise him, but in this case is it CG or LE?

    Q12:
    Can a Rogue/Monk make a combined flurry of blows & sneak attack?
    A11: Despite my dislike of this, the rule is that the caster of the spell is the one reading the scroll. So in this case it would be CG. It uses the makers stats to determine effectiveness, but otherwise is directed and controlled by the reader, making him the caster.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q13
    Can the off-hand end of a quarterstaff, which functions as a light weapon for enchantment purposes, be enchanted with the Dueling special feature?

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A11: The parameters of the scroll are actually irrelevant. The rule is that the soul knows the name, deity and alignment of "the character attempting to revive it" - not "the caster."

    A12 addendum: Instead of being a rogue/monk, you could go for an archetype like Monk of the Mantis that gets both without sacrificing monk abilities. You can combine this with features like VMC Rogue or the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat for even more damage.

    A13: A Quarterstaff can't be Finessed normally, even if you use it TWF-style, so no.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q14

    If I grapple a invisible enemy and I roll succesfully agaisnt concealment, on the next round provided he/she/it didnt break my grapple, do I have to roll vs concealment again after I sucess fully mantain my grapple?
    Last edited by Griffin; 2018-11-10 at 03:57 PM.

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