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    DrowGuy

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    Default Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    This question I just want to bring the table and open for discussion. You play a Fighter and other players say "why on earth you're playing a low tier character Your fighter will get crushed by Wizards especially in high levels." And it brings you down because you said: "Fighter is fun to play with." So does this ever happen to you and if so, Tell me your story.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    My playgroup are close friends, so this would never happen except maybe in a playful, fun way. Also, most of them either donít know about or donít care about the tier system, and just play what they want to play.
    One of the players in my Pathfinder group is playing a dwarf rogue, in a group with a warder bushi, a rajah, a vitalist and a wizard. Meaning heís a tier 4/5 in a group of tier 3s and a tier 1. He doesnít care, the rest of the group doesnít care, and our game goes on just fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Are you some sort of Wizard?
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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Nah, 'cause playing low-tier classes is my chance to chill. And I'm way too chill to care. Also my friends are cool.
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    My table is pretty casual and I don't think many of the group is aware of the tiers. When we had a fairly serious optimizer in the group he did question why I would use a Truenamer but I never felt like I was made fun of or anything like that for the character I made.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by EisenKreutzer View Post
    My playgroup are close friends, so this would never happen except maybe in a playful, fun way. Also, most of them either donít know about or donít care about the tier system, and just play what they want to play.
    One of the players in my Pathfinder group is playing a dwarf rogue, in a group with a warder bushi, a rajah, a vitalist and a wizard. Meaning heís a tier 4/5 in a group of tier 3s and a tier 1. He doesnít care, the rest of the group doesnít care, and our game goes on just fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by False God View Post
    Nah, 'cause playing low-tier classes is my chance to chill. And I'm way too chill to care. Also my friends are cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    My table is pretty casual and I don't think many of the group is aware of the tiers. When we had a fairly serious optimizer in the group he did question why I would use a Truenamer but I never felt like I was made fun of or anything like that for the character I made.
    Well I'm glad everybody is ok for having a bottom-low tier class by not making fun of.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2019-10-16 at 07:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Stuff like this happens when people donít fully understand the tier system, or misunderstand what it is.
    The tiers are not a 1 to 6 rating of how good a class is. They are a measurement of how versatile, flexible and efficient the class is at successfully resolving all kinds of encounters in a typical roleplaying game scenario.
    The wizard is tier 1 because they can solve any problem with little effort or expenditure of resources.
    The fighter is tier 5 because they fight, and when they go up in level they fight slightly better.

    Where people really go wrong is in assuming that there is no reason to play a low tier character, because the higher tier classes are ębetter.Ľ in truth, there are as many reasons to play a low tier character as there are reasons for playing rpgs to begin with. First of all, there is real value in playing a character that is mechanically simple, or focused on one thing if you are a beginner to the game or have low system mastery (or just donít care, are here for the beer and pretzels etc.).
    Secondly, at many tables the rules are set aside for most of the campaign, only being invoked when the situation absolutely mandate them (like combat). When most interactions with the game world happen throuh roleplaying, how mechanically effective a character is often doesnít matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Are you some sort of Wizard?
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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Nobody that you allow at your table should make fun of you for playing the character that you want to play.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Afghanistan View Post
    Nobody that you allow at your table should make fun of you for playing the character that you want to play.
    I agree. If people can't accept my character because he a low or even bottom tier, I'm leaving your game for good.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I agree. If people can't accept my character because he a low or even bottom tier, I'm leaving your game for good.
    I don't think it is something that needs accepting. It is a matter of personal responsibility and just not being "That Guy". Just play at your tables accepted level of optimization.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    I make fun of a hell of a lot of things. Mass murder. The entirety of Harry Potter and its fans. A certain person who believed in divine monarchy that got way too hammered and slammed her Ferrari into a brick wall.

    But above all else, I will always make fun of my friends, especially for bad decisions. That's what makes is friends.

    That said, you presume far too much as to what we consider bad decisions.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    With my current group, I might get some good-natured ribbing but otherwise not really.

    With a new group, not for very long. I'm a pretty solid optimizer and I specialized my skill in that realm for squeezing every tiny iota of worth out of low-tier classes and builds. As long as the GM isn't antagonistic to it, low-tier classes can hold their own just fine and I can make them shine better than most. Side affect of being a forever-gm in the past and wanting to have variety in my antagonists without just hand-waiving everything. If I can make a bloody forsaker work, getting a fighter up to snuff is no big deal.
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    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    With my current group, I might get some good-natured ribbing but otherwise not really.

    With a new group, not for very long. I'm a pretty solid optimizer and I specialized my skill in that realm for squeezing every tiny iota of worth out of low-tier classes and builds. As long as the GM isn't antagonistic to it, low-tier classes can hold their own just fine and I can make them shine better than most. Side affect of being a forever-gm in the past and wanting to have variety in my antagonists without just hand-waiving everything. If I can make a bloody forsaker work, getting a fighter up to snuff is no big deal.
    What sort of build did you run with the Forsaker? I'm interested in working out how to build one, and so far I'm thinking it might work with the Vow of Poverty bonuses.

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    What sort of build did you run with the Forsaker? I'm interested in working out how to build one, and so far I'm thinking it might work with the Vow of Poverty bonuses.
    For VoP cheese try getting your dm to accept permanency spells on your staff. Technically it's not crafted and not a magic item, it's a spell, and you're allowed to cast them.

    Then your staff invisibly attacks and flanks for you, etc.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    What sort of build did you run with the Forsaker? I'm interested in working out how to build one, and so far I'm thinking it might work with the Vow of Poverty bonuses.
    First, I got in early. Karsite with 2 levels in human paragon can get you in starting at 3. Karsite's spell resistance stacks with forsaker's for a fairly impressive value. Sprinkle with levels in your favorite martial adept for solid offensive options.

    Then as levels progress, it's all about gear selection. At low levels you can get by on special materials and alchemy but as you get higher you have to get creative. The biggest gem for getting along there is the artificer devices built by a gnome artificer from Magic of Faerun. Grafts also aren't technically magical.

    I won't lie to you, it's -rough- going and it falls apart toward the end of mid-level but there's definitely a certain satisfaction in getting to call the rest of your crew magic-reliant weenies for a dozen levels; all in good fun, of course.

    Stay a -long- ways away from VoP. It works kinda, sorta okay with an incarnate or totemist but it just locks you into being barely base-line competent with anything else that isn't a straight-up caster character. If you can rely on an allly to buff you then it's not such a big deal but a forsaker has to actively resist even beneficial spells targetting him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    To answer the question not really. I am the dm 98% of the time but rarely when I am not I tend to play tier 4-5 classes. This is because I have been so used to designing encounters I like really putting the system through the works and optimizing my concept as high as I can. With my system mastery compared to the rest of the playgroup I would break the game as anything higher than tier 3. No one makes fun of me or even ribs on me because they know what I am capable of building. Even then I hold back.

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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    First, I got in early. Karsite with 2 levels in human paragon can get you in starting at 3. Karsite's spell resistance stacks with forsaker's for a fairly impressive value. Sprinkle with levels in your favorite martial adept for solid offensive options.

    Then as levels progress, it's all about gear selection. At low levels you can get by on special materials and alchemy but as you get higher you have to get creative. The biggest gem for getting along there is the artificer devices built by a gnome artificer from Magic of Faerun. Grafts also aren't technically magical.

    I won't lie to you, it's -rough- going and it falls apart toward the end of mid-level but there's definitely a certain satisfaction in getting to call the rest of your crew magic-reliant weenies for a dozen levels; all in good fun, of course.

    Stay a -long- ways away from VoP. It works kinda, sorta okay with an incarnate or totemist but it just locks you into being barely base-line competent with anything else that isn't a straight-up caster character. If you can rely on an allly to buff you then it's not such a big deal but a forsaker has to actively resist even beneficial spells targetting him.
    Thanks for the ideas.

    Normally I'd stay right away from VoP but think there's some synergy there when you're swearing off magic items already. Might stat a martial character out later and see how good I can make the two work together.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    Thanks for the ideas.

    Normally I'd stay right away from VoP but think there's some synergy there when you're swearing off magic items already. Might stat a martial character out later and see how good I can make the two work together.
    If you've got allies that can and are willing to buff you, VoP isn't so bad. Permanent spell effects aren't gear and grafts still work too. Symbionts are allies as much as they are gear. Finding an allied celestial that you can channel is a thing too. The only one of those that isn't debatably against the spirit of the vow is the channelled celestial but they're all technically not possessions.

    Honestly, I'd probably rule against the permanent spells and grafts but I can see the argument both ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by EisenKreutzer View Post
    Stuff like this happens when people donít fully understand the tier system, or misunderstand what it is.
    The tiers are not a 1 to 6 rating of how good a class is. They are a measurement of how versatile, flexible and efficient the class is at successfully resolving all kinds of encounters in a typical roleplaying game scenario.
    The wizard is tier 1 because they can solve any problem with little effort or expenditure of resources.
    The fighter is tier 5 because they fight, and when they go up in level they fight slightly better.

    Where people really go wrong is in assuming that there is no reason to play a low tier character, because the higher tier classes are ębetter.Ľ in truth, there are as many reasons to play a low tier character as there are reasons for playing rpgs to begin with. First of all, there is real value in playing a character that is mechanically simple, or focused on one thing if you are a beginner to the game or have low system mastery (or just donít care, are here for the beer and pretzels etc.).
    Secondly, at many tables the rules are set aside for most of the campaign, only being invoked when the situation absolutely mandate them (like combat). When most interactions with the game world happen throuh roleplaying, how mechanically effective a character is often doesnít matter.
    QFT

    Playing a relative mechanically simple character is great. I dropped my druid to play a fighter. With the druid you constantly needed to worry about all the spells, the stats of you wild shapes, and all kind of other stuff. Now I play a pure fighter/archblade and it's so much fun. Instead of my focus going to the stats I can focus on the game.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    "Make fun of"? No, but I've said "No" to characters that weren't sufficiently powerful or were too powerful for a game before. Mind, in such games I inform the players beforehand of the power level I'm going with, but if I'm asking to actually run a "Tier 1 pulling all the stops sans infinite loops" -game, I'm not going to want a S&B Dwarf Fighter as that would be fun for nobody involved.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2019-10-18 at 04:16 AM.
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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    My old University groups used to complain if someone played a lower tier character as it was percieved as making the rest of the group carry them.

    These days anything aside from old-fashioned "Thespian anti-powergaming" self sabotage (you know, negative Con Mods, Str 12 on a sword and board fighter and other obviously bad decisions made to give a character flaws) is just given a smile and a nod.
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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    No.



    Not unless you were doing so while deliberately self-sabotaging your mechanical viablilty and then continuously moaning that you can't compete to the point of annoying everyone; given that to be in that position, you would have had to have been refusing to listen to the advice that everyone (and likely especially the DM and dobule-especially if the DM is me, the person who not only has the most system mastery of our group but who has actively written what is pretty much an edition's worth of material at this point) would have been giving you, both on the build and/or tactical level.

    Though in that instance, the likelihood of you being disinvited to the group because of a complete mismatch in playstyles would be likely to be higher.

    We don't expect anyone to be the master of the system, but we DO expect some level of listening to the people that do. You want to play a simple fighter-dude that, say, just throws knives at people? We're totally down with that (we have DONE that), but if metaphorical you is not Good At Mechanics, at least listen when we suggest how you can best spend the 30 (+human) feats that your Fighter 20 gets in 3.Aotrs to make you the darn best knife-throwing guy you can be.

    Come to that, we don't pay really any attention to the Tier system, since for one thing, the Tier system can only a) work on un-houseruled classes (of which there are as of this revision, technically none) and b) in a projected game paradigm which may very well not apply to our games.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-10-18 at 06:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    People don't generally caution others against playing really low-tier classes out of malice. Rather, the concern is that a player using a class that can't contribute to a variety of situations won't have fun. If you build a fighter with an effective charge routine (or an effective trip build, or something similar) but not much else, what are you going to do when there's a fight where charging (or tripping, or whatever) isn't really viable?

    In social scenes, hopefully everyone can be involved based on roleplay. In more problem-solving scenes, a player can suggest solutions that other PCs have the abilities to implement even if they personally don't have anything relevant. But if you're trying to use varied combat types, you're going to have a tough time eventually. A TWF rogue is going to eventually come up against stuff she can't sneak attack, a monk is going to run into stuff that has too much AC for them to hit, a pure melee character is going to have trouble if the terrain makes that difficult.
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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Make fun of?
    Possibly a comment, in a friendly ribbing sort of way. Not in a nasty sort of way.

    More often we caution about weak classes to those with less system mastery than the other players. We offer build advice and the odd "I told you so" if said advice is ignored and the player is regretting the character, but we don't constantly tease people over such things, but this applies to all classes.
    Last edited by BWR; 2019-10-18 at 10:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Not usually. They know that I can snap reality in two with a higher-tier character, and are generally grateful I'm not doing that.

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    d6 Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Watched a 4th level fighter take out two 5th wizards in two rounds 40 feet apart. We spotted the he charges nat 20 confirmed crit. Next round charges nat 20 confirmed crit. Two hit points left on the fighter before charging. Both wizards were casting full concentration illusion spells, no weapons in hand could not attack of opportunity the fighter.
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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by denthor View Post
    Watched a 4th level fighter take out two 5th wizards in two rounds 40 feet apart. We spotted the he charges nat 20 confirmed crit. Next round charges nat 20 confirmed crit. Two hit points left on the fighter before charging. Both wizards were casting full concentration illusion spells, no weapons in hand could not attack of opportunity the fighter.
    Wow. That's amazing.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    denthor, that was an extremely lucky roll on otherwise preoccupied enemies. It could have very easily went against him. in a game I am currently playing in, I avoided creating a tier 1 wizard because i did not want to overshadow the party. If it was not for a fighter/sorcerer/eldritch knight in the group with ridiculous feats that most other games would say no to(strength replaces charisma for all spell abilities for him), and a rogue played by someone who knows what they are doing, my alchemist would still be the most powerful character. this is mostly because the cleric player has no idea about what spells to use, nor the sorcerer/druid/theurge.
    I have tried to help by giving them a list of useful spells that can be used in most combat scenarios, along with a few out of combat ones. now if the cleric player knew what he was doing he would be the strongest in the game. it also helps that the dm has given items and options that render class choice kind of moot in my opinion. we once used an artifact that gave 1 random dwarf in a fortress +1 level for every ally in said fortress, till the end of the siege, to give you an idea as to the shenanigans in the campaign.
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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Wow. That's amazing.
    No, that's lucky. It was a 1 in 400 chance, when in the opposite direction something as simple as hold person could have shut down the fighter. Not a fan? How about the list of spells that will either make him too weak or too uncoordinated to be able to use his weapon, or move in his armor anymore?

    This guy won against the rng machine. It is pure luck.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    No, that's lucky. It was a 1 in 400 chance, when in the opposite direction something as simple as hold person could have shut down the fighter. Not a fan? How about the list of spells that will either make him too weak or too uncoordinated to be able to use his weapon, or move in his armor anymore?

    This guy won against the rng machine. It is pure luck.
    Well probably the wizards weren't fully optimized. That how the fighter won. So I'll give props for the fighter for being lucky.

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    Default Re: Do Other Players Make Fun Of You When Playing A Bottom-Low Tier Class?

    i always play casters. So i can't see things from the suggested perspective.

    However i don't mind someone playing whatever they want to. At least as long as they don't deliberatelly become a liability to the party (as in purposfully getting silly options to turn their character as useless as possible). i'd prefear if the players in question try to optimise to a similar level as the rest of the party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Well probably the wizards weren't fully optimized. That how the fighter won. So I'll give props for the fighter for being lucky.
    As in this example. The Wizards in question were either played by someone with poor system mastery OR someone downplaying what the Wizards could do on purpose. The first case is fine but i'm not a big fun of the latter.
    Last edited by Asmotherion; 2019-10-18 at 05:43 PM.

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