Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

[Firest Kathon]

A155 correction The master craftsman feat does not do what Firechanter asked. With master craftsman, you still have to take the correct item creation feat (e.g. Craft ring to create a ring).

[Dude_Here]

Q157

Hi,

Question concerning the Path of War supplement. When you initiate a counter maneuver can you still make a normal
attack in the same round?

[Firechanter]

A157

Counters are generally Immediate Actions, taken when it's not your turn, so they have no impact on what you can do on your actual turn, other than burning up your Swift. You can still take AoOs just fine, and when it's your turn you can use your Standard + Move, or Full-Round Action as you see fit. Unless a specific Counter spells out otherwise (but I am not aware of any).

[ksbsnowowl]

Q158

This question is sort of a hybrid D&D and Pathfinder question, as I'm running the original Curse of the Crimson Throne AP in D&D 3.5. I figured I might get better answers in this thread.

The Red Mantis Assassin's Prayer Attack (Pathfinder #9, p. 70) is a Supernatural Ability. Supernatural Abilities do not require concentration. But the Prayer Attack ability is worded thusly:

Prayer Attack (Su): At 2nd level, a Red Mantis assassin gains this deadly attack. The mantis must be within 30 feet of her victim and must be visible to her victim. While wielding a sawtooth sabre, the assassin can begin weaving her weapon in a hypnotic pattern, fascinating her victim. Her victim can resist fascination by making a Will save against DC 10 + the Red Mantis assassin’s class level + the Red Mantis assassin’s Charisma modifier. By concentrating, the Red Mantis assassin can maintain this fascination, and after 3 rounds of fascination, she may make a coup de grace attack against her fascinated target...
... The victim can escape fascination before this coup de grace attack if the Red Mantis assassin ceases to concentrate on maintaining the effect. ...

Can the Prayer Attack ability be interrupted by dealing damage to the Red Mantis Assassin, or otherwise doing something to force a Concentration check (much as if he were casting a spell with a long casting time)? Or is this merely meaning the RMA needs to spend his standard action each round maintaining the effect, and he cannot be forced to make a Concentration check which might disrupt his Prayer Attack?

Q159 If a different PC than the target of the RMA's Prayer Attack approaches the RMA during that three-round fascination period (during which the RMA is weaving his sabre), and does something which provokes an AoO, is there anything preventing the RMA from taking that AoO, and still maintaining the "concentration" on his Prayer Attack?

[Cieyrin]

A 158/159 You're correct, it can't be disrupted unless the Red Mantis Assassin is forced to stop spending actions to concentrate on their Prayer Attack. It's the same as a regular Assassin having their studying of their target disrupted. Doesn't provoke or disrupted if they're attacked but if they don't spend the actions to maintain, it stops working.

[Aotrs Commander]

Q 160: (Psionics, Soulknife question) Regarding the Armoured Blade Soulknife, Shield Blade and Mind Shield and Psychokinetic Armour. Let me see if I'm understanding this right.

The Armoured Blade forms their armour and mind blade seperately, and neither suffer any enhancement bonuses. An armoured blade that also has the Shielded Blade archtype can form her armour at full bonus and her mind blade and shield, but the mind blade (only) suffers a -1 enhancement bonus. Or she can split his mind blade into two blades as normal, each of which gets the -1 enhancement.

A soulblade (or say, a soul bow¹) who only has the Psychokinetic Armour blade skill, so if she forms mind armour and a mind blade/bolt, both get the -1 penalty. If she has Mind Shield blade skill, nothing extra happens because that only gives you a +2 shield bonus if your hand is free. If she also has Shielded Blade and she forms her mind armour and mind blade and mind shield (or mind armour and two mind blades) all three suffer a -2 to their enhancement. (All of which presumably bring them into line or a touch below the Armoured Blade's enhancement progression?)

As usual, whenever the soulknife forms multiple items, the enhancement bonus of all items she forms decrease by 1 per item formed after the first.

Is this correct?



Q 161: Mind Daggers blade skill. When used as a Soulbolt, it explictly states that the ehancement bonus goes down by one when you form the mind daggers. It does NOT explictly state this for mind daggers when taken as a regular soulknife - am I correctly interpreting that as an intentional feature of mind daggers for regular soulknives (because it's turned into a pair of daggers) and is not intended to be quite as good for soulbolts (because it's basically turning their ranged weapon into a melee weapon)?



Q162: A 6th soulknife has configured her blade to be +1 Flaming. She suddenly decides in the spur of the moment to split her blades into two blades, which would reduce the enhancement to +0 (and assuming she doesn't have Fluid Blade blade skill). The rules say she has to reconfigure his blade (which would take 8 hours). So what happens? Can she flat just not do it, or would the Flaming property simply just disappear (wasted) while in that form? The wording on this is unclear:

If the soulknife shapes her mind blade into two items, the enhancement bonus of her mind blade (if any) is reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 0). If this would reduce the enhancement bonus on the mind blades to 0 and weapon special abilities are applied, the soulknife must reshape her mind blade to make the options valid. Both mind blades have the same selection of enhancement bonus that does not exceed the total allowed by the soulknife’s level, but she must assign at least a +1 and weapon special abilities (if any).

Should that actually read "Both mind blades have the same selection of enhancement bonus and selection of special abilities that does not exceed the total allowed by the soulknife’s level, but she must assign at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have? use? any weapon special abilities?"

Else that suggests the soulknife can't split her blade into 2 until 6th level (where she can have +1 to each), which is inconsistent with the sentence above that states she reduces the enhancement bonus by 1 (to a minimum of 0).

My reading of the INTENTION would seem to be if you spontaneously split your +0, +1 or +1-and-special-abilites mind blade into two, you can do so, but you'd lose the enhancement bonus (if you had one) and all the special abilites would stop working into you formed it back. It doesn't appear to quite SAY that, though, and I could be reading things wrong.



¹Because somebody realised they can do a full-on magical-girl with MGL Nanoha-style Barrier Jacket...

[Powerdork]

Q 160: (Psionics, Soulknife question) Regarding the Armoured Blade Soulknife, Shield Blade and Mind Shield and Psychokinetic Armour. Let me see if I'm understanding this right.

The Armoured Blade forms their armour and mind blade seperately, and neither suffer any enhancement bonuses. An armoured blade that also has the Shielded Blade archtype can form her armour at full bonus and her mind blade and shield, but the mind blade (only) suffers a -1 enhancement bonus. Or she can split his mind blade into two blades as normal, each of which gets the -1 enhancement.

A soulblade (or say, a soul bow) who only has the Psychokinetic Armour blade skill, so if she forms mind armour and a mind blade/bolt, both get the -1 penalty. If she has Mind Shield blade skill, nothing extra happens because that only gives you a +2 shield bonus if your hand is free. If she also has Shielded Blade and she forms her mind armour and mind blade and mind shield (or mind armour and two mind blades) all three suffer a -2 to their enhancement. (All of which presumably bring them into line or a touch below the Armoured Blade's enhancement progression?)


Is this correct?

A 160: Correct. A soulknife, soul archer (prestige class) or soulbolt (archetype) who is not also an armoured blade would suffer the -1 penalty across the board for forming a mind weapon and mind armour with the psychokinetic armour blade skill, whereas an armoured blade would not count the armour against their formed items when determining the penalty (but forming two mind blades would impose the penalty on every piece of mind gear), and the shielded blade's mind shield would only impose its penalty on the mind blade.

Is it clear yet that there have been like 5 or 6 writers constantly giving the soulknife nice new things to try to help it keep up and none of them have been able to go against or redefine the limitations of the prior work? I think some of them might not even have been aware early on, and an editor might have missed it.

Q 161: Mind Daggers blade skill. When used as a Soulbolt, it explictly states that the ehancement bonus goes down by one when you form the mind daggers. It does NOT explictly state this for mind daggers when taken as a regular soulknife - am I correctly interpreting that as an intentional feature of mind daggers for regular soulknives (because it's turned into a pair of daggers) and is not intended to be quite as good for soulbolts (because it's basically turning their ranged weapon into a melee weapon)?

A 161: A soulknife using mind daggers would suffer the enhancement penalty the same as a soulbolt, because two mind blades would suffer the enhancement penalty, and the mind daggers have "the same enhancement configuration".


162: This is the Simple RAW thread. Perhaps create a new thread about soulknives so people can have a more in-depth discussion about this, because I foresee a major derail in this thread.

[Fenryr]

Q163

Sanity rules. Paranoia.

Lastly, any time the afflicted character tries to use or gain a benefit from the aid another action, or is the target of a beneficial spell or effect from an ally, he must succeed at a Will saving throw in order to take the aid another action or gain the benefit from the action, spell, or effect.

Can the paranoid PC benefit from Channel Energy? Or Freebooter's Bond? The text says "target". Those two abilities I mentioned affect all allies. Is each ally considered a target?

[Cieyrin]

A 163 Yes, each creature is a target, so a paranoid character would have to Will save to benefit from it.

[Firechanter]

Q164
When you're flying, is letting yourself drop a Free Action?
Like, suppose in the previous turn you've moved above an enemy at 50' altitude. Could you simply drop into range and then get a Full Attack in?

[TheFamilarRaven]

A164: While there is no RAW support for this answer, James Jacobs (Creative Director of Pathfinder) said in this thread from Aug 16, 2010

Yup; falling is generally not an "action." You can indeed fall into a pit like this to use your wand. Furthermore, since this act is both actionpacked and heroic AND it helps save a PC, I as a GM would be FAR more likely to say it's cool than if it's a case of a PC trying to sneak an extra attack in on a monster.

Emphasis mine. If there is a more recent source that contradicts this I'll differ to that, So assuming you stopped flying at the beginning of your turn, you would still have the rest of your actions for that turn. Of course you would take damage from the fall, and your melee attacks would be at a penalty since you'd be prone. So i would say this is not the recommended way of getting pounce .

[Firechanter]

Followup: since when is there a penalty for attacking from prone? ;)

Anyway, thanks for the pointer!

[Lord of Shadows]

Followup: since when is there a penalty for attacking from prone? ;)

Anyway, thanks for the pointer!

From the d20pfsrd:

"Prone

The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity."

[Lord of Shadows]

Q 165 Can a Ghoul with class levels use weapons or is the bite and 2 claws all they have? Working on a Ghoul/Cleric level 1 as a low level challenge. The NPC Cleric 1 who died and became a Ghoul had a shortspear and a crossbow.

Thanks.

[Psyren]

A165: Yes - they are intelligent and have prehensile appendages (hands, in other words), which is all you need to take class levels and use weapons. (And even some mindless creatures like skeletons can use weapons.)

If you're looking for official examples to back this up, there are several ghouls with class levels in Monster Codex, such as a Ghoul Rogue who uses a crossbow and a Ghoul Ranger with a longbow.

[Firest Kathon]

A165 addendum: Don't forget that when they are using weapons their natural attacks (their bite, since their claws will be holding the weapons) will be considered a secondary natural attack then (i.e. -5 attack, only 1/2 Str to damage).

[Psyren]

A165 addendum: Don't forget that when they are using weapons their natural attacks (their bite, since their claws will be holding the weapons) will be considered a secondary natural attack then (i.e. -5 attack, only 1/2 Str to damage).

A165 addendum to addendum: Note that this reduction only happens if they use both in the same turn/attack sequence. For example, if a ghoul is using a crossbow during their turn, then an enemy provokes the ghoul's bite AoO separately, that bite will be a primary attack with no penalties, because it was not used in combination with any manufactured weapon attacks.

[Chaos Jackal]

Q 166 The Greater Magic Weapon spell states that it only allows a weapon to overcome DR/magic. Would this mean that, as far as DR goes, it's irrelevant to calculations no matter the weapon's other bonuses? So, for example, a CL 8 Greater Magic Weapon cast on a +3 sword would still allow the sword to overcome only up to DR/cold iron or silver, or would GMW overcome DR/magic, and then along with the existing +3 it would overcome DR/alignment?

[Psyren]

A166: What you have there are two effects on your weapon that overlap. So your sword is both a +5 weapon (from the spell) and a +3 weapon (natively) - the former cannot overcome DR cold iron/silver while the latter can. Neither can overcome DR/alignment or DR/adamantine, so you won't be able to beat those.

[FearlessGnome]

Q167:The Style feats in Tome of War all have three levels, but levels two and three are not listed as style feats (Though they require the first level, which is). How does using these feats actually work? Do levels 2 and 3 just upgrade the first level style feat with more abilities, are they separate styles and you can only benefit from one at a time, or do you get the benefits of levels 2 and 3 at all times, regardless of which Style you are using?

[Lord of Shadows]

Q 168-A A monster under the effects of a spell with any one or all of the "enchantment, compulsion, mind-affecting" tags can be detected using Detect Charm but what about a Sense Motive? Under the skill it describes using it to detect Dominate Person, with a DC 15. Could that be extended to an intelligent, say, monstrous humanoid?

Q 168-B Would a Protection from Evil cast on said creature grant it a new save against the effect, as long as a save was allowed by the original spell/power? Said creature could even receive buffs to their Will save to give the save as good a chance as possible.

As an extreme example, casting Protection from Evil on a monster under the effects of a Dominate Monster grants it a new save against the spell. (Dominate Monster acts as Dominate Person, which allows a Will save)

1st level spell nerfing a 9th level spell.

Thanks.

[Powerdork]

Q167:The Style feats in Tome of War all have three levels, but levels two and three are not listed as style feats (Though they require the first level, which is). How does using these feats actually work? Do levels 2 and 3 just upgrade the first level style feat with more abilities, are they separate styles and you can only benefit from one at a time, or do you get the benefits of levels 2 and 3 at all times, regardless of which Style you are using?

A 167: When you gain a style feat, it's not active until you take a swift action to activate it, and most feats that have a specific style feat as a prerequisite (other feats 'in the style') only have effects while you're in that style; you cannot activate those feats the same way you activate a new style, but when you activate the basic version of that style, it all comes together.
There are exceptions, so read the feats carefully.

[Psyren]

Q 168-A A monster under the effects of a spell with any one or all of the "enchantment, compulsion, mind-affecting" tags can be detected using Detect Charm but what about a Sense Motive? Under the skill it describes using it to detect Dominate Person, with a DC 15. Could that be extended to an intelligent, say, monstrous humanoid?

I can't really parse this question. Are you asking if Sense Motive can be used to detect domination in non-humanoids? The answer to that is yes, Dominate Person was only referred to as an example.

Q 168-B Would a Protection from Evil cast on said creature grant it a new save against the effect, as long as a save was allowed by the original spell/power? Said creature could even receive buffs to their Will save to give the save as good a chance as possible.

As an extreme example, casting Protection from Evil on a monster under the effects of a Dominate Monster grants it a new save against the spell. (Dominate Monster acts as Dominate Person, which allows a Will save)

1st level spell nerfing a 9th level spell.

Thanks.

Yes, Protection from Evil will allow a second save against Dominate Monster, and furthermore will suppress it even if that second save fails.

There are plenty of examples of low-level spells defeating much higher ones. Silence defeats Blasphemy, Dismissal beats Gate etc.

[Kris Moonhand]

Q 169: (Psionics) Gaining psionic focus is a full-round action that provokes AoOs. If you are able to gain psifocus faster, like with the Psionic Meditation feat, or have some kind of ability to gain it as part of another action, like the Sleeping Goddess Style feat, does it still provoke?

[Powerdork]

Q 169: (Psionics) Gaining psionic focus is a full-round action that provokes AoOs. If you are able to gain psifocus faster, like with the Psionic Meditation feat, or have some kind of ability to gain it as part of another action, like the Sleeping Goddess Style feat, does it still provoke?

I'm going to speak to the spirit of the rules as I understand it here, outside of the RAW answer.
If an ability gives you a faster way to gain psionic focus, but doesn't specify that you don't provoke attacks of opportunity, you still provoke attacks of opportunity; you're not letting your guard down for as long as normal, but you're still letting your guard down. However, swift action and free action abilities are circumstances where your GM might agree that it's too brief for someone to capitalize on it.
If an action you perform gives you an opportunity to gain your psionic focus as an additional benefit, then only the action you're performing in the first place might provoke attacks of opportunity (and it probably won't, if it's an extraordinary or supernatural ability that doesn't call for a ranged attack).

A 169: Sleeping Goddess Style is telling you first and foremost to gain psionic focus at an unusual action cost (and one additional benefit is that you get to recover a maneuver if you do so); it probably inherits all the same rules as gaining psionic focus normally.

[Psyren]

In 3.5, the way to get a swift-action focus was Heroic Focus from Magic of Eberron. It doesn't specify that you don't provoke, so I would imagine that you did. Personally, I don't think swift actions should provoke.

[Lord of Shadows]

Q 170 When a PF character with at least 1 Class level is converted to a monster, how are Skills handled? Both the base Class and the Monster have their own Skill Points, Class Skills and Ability Adjustments. Please bear with me, this is a question of several parts:

Would they retain their Skill totals gained from character progression, and adjusted by Abilities and including the +3 for Class Skills?

Would they gain Skill totals from the Class Skills for the Monster race, and adjusted by Abilities and including the +3 for Class Skills?

And are the Skill Totals for each then simply added together for a grand total?

The example combination being considered is a Human Cleric 1 who dies of Ghoul Fever and rises as a Ghoul Cleric 1. I realize that the description of Ghoul Fever in the entry for Ghoul reads: "A humanoid who becomes a ghoul in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life." However, both the d20pfsrd and other sources offer examples of Ghouls with Class Levels, presumably former humanoids, who retain things like spellcasting, Rogue abilities, etc.

In this example, Knowledge Arcana, Knowledge Religion, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft are Class Skills for both Cleric and Ghoul (using the default Class Skills for Undead).

As a Cleric he puts 1 Skill point in Spellcraft and has INT 13 (+1) for a Spellcraft total of 5 (1 point + 1 for INT + 3 for Class Skill).

As a Ghoul, he gains 2 HD, puts 2 Skill points into Spellcraft and still has INT 13 (+1) for a Spellcraft total of 6 (2 points + 1 for INT + 3 for Class Skill).

Does the Ghoul Cleric have a Spellcraft of 11, or something else?

Thanks.

[Firechanter]

Q171:
When a Monk attacks with a Monk weapon he's proficient with, such as a Cestus, does he do his Monk Unarmed Damage die if it's better than the weapon's?

[Psyren]

A170: As the rule states, when you rise as a spawned ghoul you come out as a vanilla version from the Bestiary. You can then level normally (if you're still a PC - most spawn are NPC monsters under the GM's control.) You don't keep any of the skill points, allocations or abilities you had in life, rather you start over from scratch and get to allocate them normally as you gain class levels.

Alternatively, your GM can let you keep your starting stats (minus Con of course) and then apply ghoul adjustments. To reverse-engineer these, simply take the ghoul entry from the bestiary, subtract 10 from all the even scores and 11 from all the odd ones, and apply the result to your rolled stats. This approach gives your Ghoul the following adjustments: +2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha. Finally, note that at CR 1, your ghoul will lag one level behind the party much like a Noble Drow would.

A171: By default no, but there are abilities to do this like the Ascetic Strike feat.

[Firechanter]

Wow, those are some really ridiculous prereqs for the benefit. Thanks for the heads up!