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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q63
    An unchained synthetist summoner merged with her eidolon has her own weapon attacks count against the max number of eidolon attacks or do they add up?
    Namely, a level 1 summoner with two weapons fighting and a serpentine eidolon can attacks with both her weapons and with two eidolon (secondary) natural attacks, to a total of 4, or is it limited to 3?

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A63: Strictly RAW speaking, you'd be limited to 3 attacks PERIOD.

    ...but it's a horribly thought out 'ability' and/or is poorly worded.
    In my opinion, it should be worded more like "maximum number of attacks you can use per round". Carry/have as many as you want, but you can only use so many.

    An example of the stupid: just about anything that can attack can make an Unarmed strike. You can Two Weapon Fight with Unarmed strikes (reminder that the first TWF Feat only removes to-hit penalities). Therefore a Level 1 Biped Eidolon is illegal, because it has 4 attacks (2 claw, 2 Unarmed) when the limit is 3. But the only penalty for over attack limit is you cannot Evolution more attacks. This means you would have to wait until level _19_ until you could add _1_ more Natural attack (iteratives kick in around the time the attack limit would increase, and it doesn't catch up until level 19).
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Hide and attack someone in the center of the illusion.
    My thought was that they get cover and concealment as well as negatives to the defender such as not being able to aoo when they move.
    And which illusion are you using? Some don't mention concealment at all so you'd be left with GM adjudication.

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    An example of the stupid: just about anything that can attack can make an Unarmed strike. You can Two Weapon Fight with Unarmed strikes (reminder that the first TWF Feat only removes to-hit penalities). Therefore a Level 1 Biped Eidolon is illegal, because it has 4 attacks (2 claw, 2 Unarmed) when the limit is 3.
    Actually, even though you can TWF with Unarmed Strike, you still have just the one per character. It's an exception to the TWF rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Actually, even though you can TWF with Unarmed Strike, you still have just the one per character. It's an exception to the TWF rules.
    EDIT: (removed previous reply)
    "Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional attacks. Attacks made with weapons, including those granted by a high base attack bonus, are counted against this maximum."

    No. It goes even dumber than that.
    It doesn't care about source of attack (I have -a- sword), it cares about how many attacks you can make with it (Bab 6 means 2 sword attacks).
    So it doesn't matter that you only have one unarmed attack. Your can still TWF with it, and that's an extra attack, and that's all it cares about.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2019-03-21 at 08:39 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    EDIT: (removed previous reply)
    "Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional attacks. Attacks made with weapons, including those granted by a high base attack bonus, are counted against this maximum."

    No. It goes even dumber than that.
    It doesn't care about source of attack (I have -a- sword), it cares about how many attacks you can make with it (Bab 6 means 2 sword attacks).
    So it doesn't matter that you only have one unarmed attack. Your can still TWF with it, and that's an extra attack, and that's all it cares about.
    I didn't expect a discussion about it, maybe it's the case of opening a dedicated topic

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    EDIT: (removed previous reply)
    "Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional attacks. Attacks made with weapons, including those granted by a high base attack bonus, are counted against this maximum."

    No. It goes even dumber than that.
    It doesn't care about source of attack (I have -a- sword), it cares about how many attacks you can make with it (Bab 6 means 2 sword attacks).
    So it doesn't matter that you only have one unarmed attack. Your can still TWF with it, and that's an extra attack, and that's all it cares about.
    The restriction is that you can't take additional evolutions though - not that your base form would somehow be disallowed.

    I agree that a dedicated thread might make more sense for this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The restriction is that you can't take additional evolutions though - not that your base form would somehow be disallowed.

    I agree that a dedicated thread might make more sense for this one.

    Done http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ber-of-attacks
    Last edited by Selion; 2019-03-21 at 11:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q 64 a "Scary Mary" is 11th level character who has the following abilities and feats:

    1. Ascetic Style (shuriken), Combat Style Master, Weapon Style Mastery and devastating touch.
      -
    2. Broken Dreams Style, Shattered Dream Strike and Nightmare Veil. Relevant RAW: "While in the broken dreams style, after making a successful unarmed strike empowered with your devastating touch, you can make a free Intimidate check against the target." "While in the broken dreams style, any target that is shaken treats you as concealed."
      -
    3. Chameleon Shift and four other shifting feats. Relevant RAW: "At 5 Shifting feats, you may attempt a Stealth check to hide even when observed."
      -
    4. Dazzling Gambit, a bunch of ranged combat feats, and arbitrarily high Intimidate and Stealth skill bonuses. Relevant RAW: "Whenever the privateer succeeds on a gambit, he can make an Intimidate check to demoralize all opponents within 30 feet as a free action, even if it isn’t his turn."

    Mary sneaks up to a group of five enemies (none of them immune to fear), positioning herself so that all of them are within 30' of her. She then starts combat by initiating a gambit (swift action) after entering Ascetic Style and Broken Dreams Style (free action), followed by a ranged full attack with her shuriken. Assuming her first attack hits and her gambit succeeds, the five enemies are shaken and Mary gains concealment from them.

    Question: After her first attack, Mary would normally no longer have total concealment as her attack causes her to lose the benefits of Stealth. But as she also has HiPS and gains concealment as part of this first attack, what happens?

    1. Mary can make a Stealth check immediately after her first and each subsequent attack in order to remain in Stealth, basically as if she was successfully taking the sniping action in the Stealth skill rules.
    2. Mary loses her total concealment after her first attack, and she cannot regain it unless she moves at least 5' (allowing her to make a Stealth check).
    3. Something else.

    IOW, assuming Mary has no means to move after each attack she makes as part of her full attack, is it possible for her to complete her ranged full attack without ever breaking Stealth, never giving her enemies so much as the tiniest glimpse of herself or her position? Why or why not?

    Q 64 b If Mary does not have Nightmare Veil which grants her concealment to shaken enemies, what changes, if anything? Why?
    Last edited by upho; 2019-03-21 at 03:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A 64a Okay, so a couple issues I see are as such:

    1) Combat Style Master lets you switch your style as a free action, not start them as a free, that's still a swift. You can start in one because of it but your swift is going to be either to start your second style or initiating your gambit, not both.
    2) All the gambits require at least a move action, typically a standard, to complete to trigger your ploy to shaken your enemies so you get concealment, so unless you have something else that turns one of them into a free, I don't know how you're getting a full attack here.
    3) Sniping is after a single attack, not a full round, and requires its own dedicated move action, which, again, unless you have something that makes that faster, you're not getting a full attack.

    So, you snuck up on these guys, so you have a Surprise round. You have a Swift as well as a Standard or Move. Use your Swift to get both styles going, Move in among them. Done.
    Round 1, assuming you act before they do, you Swift to initiate your gambit (let's say Deadeye Gambit and you have Greater Called Shot for making a Called Shot as a Standard), you make your called shot and succeed, Demoralize the lot of them, so they're Shaken and you're concealed against them. You use your Move to Snipe and hide, so they have no idea where you are.

    So really, to make this work, you need Surprise and to act before they do in combat. No full attacks are happening via this method if you want to keep stealthed so you maintain not only Total Concealment but them having no idea where you are. It's not that they never see you, it's that they catch a glimpse of something before fear takes over and its the last thing they ever see, presumably.

    A 64b Without Nightmare Veil, you're not standing among them unseen, unless you have some other method of concealment like Blur or Haunted Gnome Shroud. Chameleon Shift grants HiPS but not Camouflage, so you need concealment or cover to snipe. You're gonna scare the hell out of them but they'll know where you are and where to run from or to.
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    A 64a Okay, so a couple issues I see are as such:
    Oh, crap. I made a far too elaborate example, leading you to analyze things which actually aren't issues in this case. Sorry 'bout that. (And btw, you can certainly perform gambits with ranged full attacks - for example Flanker's or Pinhole Gambit work just fine.)

    Let me try and simplify this. Assume:
    1. there's only a single enemy
    2. no surprise round, only a single regular combat turn for Mary
    3. Mary starts her turn successfully hidden and the enemy completely unaware of her existence, and she doesn't need to move in order to attack the enemy
    4. Mary is already in both her style stances
    5. Mary makes a ranged full attack (she doesn't use the sniping action or do anything else with her move and standard)

    My question is what happens after Mary has made the first successful attack in her full attack, which grants her concealment at the same instant as she loses concealment due to having made an attack. For example, can she make a Stealth check at this precise instant in order to remain unseen? Does she need to? What if she can move at least 5' between each of her attacks, does that change anything? Why?

    If she completes her full attack without moving and then takes a 5-foot step along with a successful Stealth check, what has the enemy seen of her and her position, if anything?

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    Oh, crap. I made a far too elaborate example, leading you to analyze things which actually aren't issues in this case. Sorry 'bout that. (And btw, you can certainly perform gambits with ranged full attacks - for example Flanker's or Pinhole Gambit work just fine.)

    Let me try and simplify this. Assume:
    1. there's only a single enemy
    2. no surprise round, only a single regular combat turn for Mary
    3. Mary starts her turn successfully hidden and the enemy completely unaware of her existence, and she doesn't need to move in order to attack the enemy
    4. Mary is already in both her style stances
    5. Mary makes a ranged full attack (she doesn't use the sniping action or do anything else with her move and standard)

    My question is what happens after Mary has made the first successful attack in her full attack, which grants her concealment at the same instant as she loses concealment due to having made an attack. For example, can she make a Stealth check at this precise instant in order to remain unseen? Does she need to? What if she can move at least 5' between each of her attacks, does that change anything? Why?

    If she completes her full attack without moving and then takes a 5-foot step along with a successful Stealth check, what has the enemy seen of her and her position, if anything?
    I did look at Flanker's and Pinhole but they both require an ally, which neither example indicates, as it sounds like you're completely alone, which leaves all the other gambits to consider that you can do by yourself. Keeping to a full attack, with Improved Called Shot, you can replace one of your attacks with a called shot, so you can succeed at the Deadeye gambit as part of a full attack and trigger your ploy.

    Anyways, the fact you gain concealment from your actions doesn't change the fact that you broke stealth when you attacked. The exact clause from the CRB:
    Quote Originally Posted by Core Rule Book, Stealth, Breaking Stealth
    Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
    So the fact that you're choosing not to snipe means you've revealed your presence, so you must move from that location so you can hide once more. Again referring to the CRB:
    Quote Originally Posted by Core Rule Book, Stealth, Action
    Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action.
    So as long as you move (5' is fine), you can restealth at the end of your turn or after each adjustment for each attack, as each attack breaks your Stealth, since you're deliberately not sniping.

    If you take either of those courses, since you broke Stealth, your target sees something but since you're reestablishing Stealth, they have absolutely no idea where you are without trying to seek you out. All they can really know is you're close by, they're scared and they saw glimpses of something that's trying to kill them.
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    If you take either of those courses, since you broke Stealth, your target sees something but since you're reestablishing Stealth, they have absolutely no idea where you are without trying to seek you out. All they can really know is you're close by, they're scared and they saw glimpses of something that's trying to kill them.
    Thanks a ton!

    Since I'm rather senile, let me just confirm I've understood what you're saying: a) the only way for Mary to never break Stealth and never reveal her position during a round in which she attacks is by taking the sniping action, and b) outside the sniping action the only way she can make a Stealth check to hide after attacking is by moving at least 5'. Correct?

    If so, this thankfully confirms my own conclusions. But those darn Stealth rules... The best thing I can say about them is that they're suitably "stealthy".

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q65: Small debate at my table today when i tried to Sonic Thrust an enemy out of battle. So just wanted to confirm here.

    What i thought: Sonic Thrust's range is listed as 400ft +40ft per level, so (if assuming minimum range) i could thrust a creature that's standing 10ft away from me as far as 390ft away, or a creature that's 390ft away from me as far as 10ft away.

    What we realized / decided at the table: Sonic Thrust refers to the Telekinesis "Violent Thrust" which says the target is thrown 10ft per level. In hindsight, that makes a lot more sense.

    So just to make sure for future reference: Q: Sonic Thrust only throws the target 10ft per level (max 150ft) away from you, correct?
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A 65 That's correct.
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    Thanks a ton!

    Since I'm rather senile, let me just confirm I've understood what you're saying: a) the only way for Mary to never break Stealth and never reveal her position during a round in which she attacks is by taking the sniping action, and b) outside the sniping action the only way she can make a Stealth check to hide after attacking is by moving at least 5'. Correct?

    If so, this thankfully confirms my own conclusions. But those darn Stealth rules... The best thing I can say about them is that they're suitably "stealthy".
    With her set of abilities, that is correct.
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q 66. Does the caster of Pyrotechnics needs to roll will saves or make a caster level check to avoid being blinded? (Fireworks option).
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A 66 If they're in the 120' burst, yes.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2019-03-31 at 06:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A66 addendum A will save, to be specific.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q67

    hi all!

    I have a question regarding natural attacks, I'm a tiefling with the maw or claw racial, I pick bite as the selected natural attack, so I understand that if it is my only natural attack the damage is Bite + 1 and 1/2 str, but if I use this natural attack as part of a full round action with manufactured weapons it becomes a secondary attack at -5. The question is, the damage remains as bite + 1 and 1/2 str or does it change to Bite + 1/2 str?

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A67: Yes - once you combine any natural attack with manufactured weapons, that attack becomes secondary regardless of its original type. This includes the reduced 1/2 Str damage modifier.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q 68: Do you roll for spell resistance for each instance of something on a spell? Like for each magic missile, for each scorching ray, for each target with in a fireball?
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A68: You roll per creature to be affected, so if those spells are hitting multiple subjects with SR you would roll for each one. If they're hitting a single foe you would roll once, even if that foe is getting hit by multiple missiles/rays.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q 69

    Can a character using Automatic Bonus Progression choose their magical rays / ranged touch attacks as their weapon to enhance? I guess not, but it doesn't hurt to ask

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A69: It says "weapon in your possession" which a ray wouldn't be - you're either casting it, or it doesn't exist.

    With that said, you could argue for some permanent ability that gives you a ray qualifying, like Kinetic Blast or a Warlock Vigilante's Mystic Bolt.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q 70

    Are there any rules for making the floor slippery with oil or similar substance?

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A70: The general rules are in two places: The Acrobatics skill, and the terrain rules. If the surface is greater than 3ft. wide, the base DC is 0, and then you start adding on the modifiers for slipperiness, your own speed, whether you're moving past an opponent etc. The terrain rules are what let you know that just about anything can make a surface slippery, including water or blood.

    The rules for actually coating a surface with a substance, I'm having a bit more trouble finding, but that one might be judgmental anyway - you could say for example that a lantern or vial of oil should coat a 5ft square, but what about a bucket? That may need a ruling.

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...

    The rules for actually coating a surface with a substance, I'm having a bit more trouble finding, but that one might be judgmental anyway - you could say for example that a lantern or vial of oil should coat a 5ft square, but what about a bucket? That may need a ruling.
    Could use the rules for applying a potion-like oil as modified for the 'creature' part of the equation being an immobile object.
    Like applying an oil to a sleeping character?
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2019-04-05 at 02:22 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q71: Strong Jaw reads
    Laying a hand upon an allied creature’s jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature’s natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead. This spell does not actually change the creature’s size; all of its statistics except the amount of damage dealt by its natural attacks remain unchanged.
    Bold for emphasis.

    RAW, this would give a large creature with a 2d6+15 a 4d6+15 bite attack and a colossal creature with a 4d6+15 bite attack an 8d6+30 bite attack. Is there any errata or clarification for this? Am I reading it correctly?

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    A71: You only double the dice.
    Doubling is (usually) exactly what happens with 2 size increases anyway.

    There is a FAQ that goes over damage increases, Strong Jaw matches up.
    https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f
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  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: Simple RAW for Pathfinder Thread VI: Return of the Red Die

    Q72

    Can you use the "Treat Deadly Wounds" usage of the Heal skill on an Undead target?
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