OOTS #1144 - The Discussion Thread

[Talderas]

Also, a question from a non-D&D player: Do gods and demons have the same hierarchical space in D&D? I mean, in previous comics, depictions of the pantheons of gods don't seem to include fiends and demons and the like, but is that just an artistic choice or due to how gods and devils are classified in game rules?

Short Answer: No, demons and fiends (devils) are quite below deities in power.

Long Answer: Deities have the power of creation. They can form things based on the powers they have. They are notoriously difficult to slay due to their divinity. Demons and devils are entities that form over time from souls on a given plane. They are much weaker than deities and level 20 characters can trivially mop the floor with most devils and demons. Only the most powerful of types can go toe to toe with such characters. Arch-fiends are some of the most powerful of demons or devils. They've been around a long time and have accrued a large amount of life experiences dealing with devilish schemes and backstabbing while trying to avoid the same. They're like taking the most power demons or devils and then giving them class levels on top of it. They're not divine although they are immortal. They can have worshippers but aren't quite as able as deities when it comes to granting divine power. Deities live on the planes that arch-fiends rule over but the deities are not subservient to the arch-fiends in any way.

There also some weird outlier situations like Asmodeus, who is both an arch-devil and a deity.

[Yirggzmb]

can we even say for certain Thor did agree? as long as Hel was willing to get only the dishonourable dead the world could have been constructed like that regardless of Thors opinion, Thor could have been dragged into it purely to stoke Helyas competitive drive

This is how I see it. All Loki would have to do is convince Hel to add that condition when it was her turn. Thor gets dragged in because he goes out of his way to tell the dwarves about it and get then to create a strongly honor based society.

This is assuming, of course, that each god gets their own turn instead of each pantheon getting a turn as a collective. (Can't actually remember the exact text about it at the moment) I feel like it almost had to work this way, if only because otherwise they'd have to get the whole pantheon on board with the bet, and that's another can of worms.

[Jasdoif]

When Thor says that TDO is unique, it might be that despite their eternal-seeming quality, the gods do know that they are not immortal, even if they are really long-lived, and that the chances of a new quiddity arising twice in that time frame are close enough to 0 as to not be relied upon.

Or just that it's never happened before, making the one occurrence unique across all the time he knows of.

[ManuelSacha]

Ok, the "Jack from the comic books" joke was hilarious.
It also implies that the real world, OUR real world is one of those billions of worlds that didn't make it.

I don't really understand how this "dedication" thing works, though.
Sooo... the gods get a little power up everytime a worshiper invokes their name while dying?
Rather than... I dunno... cursing the bastard who killed them, or fate, or their illness... or invoking their loved ones' names... or... not saying anything at all, because sometimes death is sudden or comes when you're inconscious?
I mean... isn't that a little too specific?
It doesn't sound like something that would affect the gods as much as worship of their followers' or said followers' souls presence in the afterlife... let alone as much as the mere fact of believing in their existence.
These three are all things that in fantasy have been said to "give power/life" to the gods.
But calling to them on death's threshold? I dunno... it sounds such a rare and irrelevant occurrence.
Almost like if it was a "Checkov's gun" that is only mentioned because it will come back to be relevant later in the plot.

[hamishspence]

Ok, the "Jack from the comic books joke" was hilarious.
It also implies that the real world, OUR real world is one of those billions of worlds that didn't make it.

I don't really understand how this "dedication" thing works, though.
Sooo... the gods get a little power up everytime a worshiper invokes their name while dying?
Rather than... I dunno... cursing the bastard who killed them, or fate, or their illness... or invoking their loved ones' names... or... not saying anything at all, because sometimes death is sudden or comes when you're inconscious?
I mean... isn't that a little too specific?

"Dedication is a big burst that's released when a mortal dies and they're sent off to their god."


Whenever a mortal worshipper dies, regardless of what they are doing at the time, the god gets the "dedication" energy burst.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Or just that it's never happened before, making the one occurrence unique across all the time he knows of.

The problem with that is when something that has never before happened happens, that increases the chances of it happening again, not decreases it. For Thor to be correct about TDO being unique, it needs to be such a ridiculously unlikely event that the chances of it happening twice be 0. That usually requires an end point to the attempts, because if they do have infinite time, they can just reset to the same starting position of this world and keep creating goblinoid equivalents until they cause another TDO to arise from their combined cruelty towards sentient beings. Thor might find the approach distasteful, but it was nevertheless successful and can be replicated. He seems convinced, however, that the chance of a repeat is 0.

This is assuming, of course, that each god gets their own turn instead of each pantheon getting a turn as a collective. (Can't actually remember the exact text about it at the moment).

That's how it seems to work when Monkey declares ninjas to be a thing despite the medieval theme.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

I was more referring to the fact that we now know that it is possible for gods to die. And just because Thor has not yet contradicted himself is not proof that he is telling the truth.

you said that your "theory was no longer proven false". I don't see how "gods can die" relate to "Thor wants this world to continue because he is seretly happy with the Bet".

Ok, the "Jack from the comic books joke" was hilarious.
It also implies that the real world, OUR real world is one of those billions of worlds that didn't make it.

Not any more than all the other 4th wall breaking humor. If Elan knwos Cyclops as an X-Man he may have read Thor's books as well.

I don't really understand how this "dedication" thing works, though.

Each time a god receives a soul he gets an immediate boost in power that is different from the soul power he gets over time. This explains why Hel getting 10, 000, 000 dwarves at once will make her stronger than the others who have been harvesting more souls than her for a long time.

I think Random Dwarf Soldiers dying words did not matter to this. They were simply her for the joke of her drop in reverence post-death.

[Asmodean_]

you said that your "theory was no longer proven false". I don't see how "gods can die" relate to "Thor wants this world to continue because he is seretly happy with the Bet".

Sorry, should have made it clearer, the theory I was referring to was the theory that the Dark One is not the first god of a new quiddity.

[nolongeralurker]

(Haven't read the whole thread, but I don't think this has been brought up yet:)

Well, this scene seems to be winding down, so with that in mind, it seems like a good time for some last-minute fantasy betting! Specifically:

Will Durkon get to meet Tenrin before getting rezzed?

Yes or No?

I'll start off by betting 10 quintalooples on Yes, because although I may be wrong, I really hope it happens, and if it does I want to be able to say I predicted it!

[Rrmcklin]

The problem with that is when something that has never before happened happens, that increases the chances of it happening again, not decreases it. For Thor to be correct about TDO being unique, it needs to be such a ridiculously unlikely event that the chances of it happening twice be 0. That usually requires an end point to the attempts, because if they do have infinite time, they can just reset to the same starting position of this world and keep creating goblinoid equivalents until they cause another TDO to arise from their combined cruelty towards sentient beings. Thor might find the approach distasteful, but it was nevertheless successful and can be replicated. He seems convinced, however, that the chance of a repeat is 0.



That's how it seems to work when Monkey declares ninjas to be a thing despite the medieval theme.

Grey Wolf

Thor doesn't seem convinced that a repeat has a chance of 0, to me, and we have no reason to believe he knows more about this than the other gods, one of whom specifically said "Now that we know that something like this is possible, we should wait for a more reasonable god to appear."

If the Dark One is the first one like this in billions of tries, and it can be assumed it'll also take billions of tries before another one maybe shows up, that's pretty damn close to being "unique" even if it's not technically the case. And a pretty good reason for him to want to end this now.

[Jasdoif]

For Thor to be correct about TDO being unique, it needs to be such a ridiculously unlikely event that the chances of it happening twice be 0.

It would depend on the range Thor was evaluating uniqueness against.

• If against existence thus far, then happening once means that it is unique...and if it later happens again, it will cease being unique at that point.
• If against existence across the whole of time, then if it later happens again, the first time will not have been unique...something that (almost certainly) can't be determined until that point occurs.

[luagha]

It's not completely beyond the pale, either. It's common for Nordic types to have bleached-blond hair from working in the sun, but still a red beard.
And in the Prologue to Snorri Sturluson's Edda (but not in the actual poem itself), Thor's hair is described as “Hár hans er fegra en gull” (“His hair is fairer than gold”).
Which could be a reference to it being beautifully kept as befits a warrior, or it could be a reference to a yellow-red like fire, or a golden yellow.
So it's up to a lot of interpretation, and Jack Kirby (and the colorist) aren't completely beyond the pale in giving Point Break golden locks.

[QUOTE=Jay R;23443101]In the myths, Thor is a redhead. In fact, he is known as Thor Redbeard.

When the comic book Thor was introduced, edited by Stan Lee, written by Larry Lieber, and drawn by Jack Kirby, he had long blonde hair.

[Ruck]

can we even say for certain Thor did agree? as long as Hel was willing to get only the dishonourable dead the world could have been constructed like that regardless of Thors opinion, Thor could have been dragged into it purely to stoke Helyas competitive drive

This is actually an interesting point; for all that Hel talks about it being a "bet with Thor," Loki set the terms and the rules only changed for Hel. Insofar as it's a bet with Thor, it's only to see if he gains more power through the "normal" method of soul power than through Hel's terms. Hel's the only one who has to actually agree to any changes in how she receives soul power.

(Haven't read the whole thread, but I don't think this has been brought up yet:)

Well, this scene seems to be winding down, so with that in mind, it seems like a good time for some last-minute fantasy betting! Specifically:

Will Durkon get to meet Tenrin before getting rezzed?

Yes or No?

I'll start off by betting 10 quintalooples on Yes, because although I may be wrong, I really hope it happens, and if it does I want to be able to say I predicted it!

I'd bet "No," mostly because he'd have to enter Valhalla (and Tenrin would still have to be there, not ascended or plane-merged or whatever) and I don't think he's going to get to do that.

[Kish]

Straight from the horse's mouth. As I previously suspected (but only ever said on the r/oots discord), this is not, as Thor claims, a once in an eternity chance. The deity version of the Fermi Paradox has a solution: a great filter that means that if you are a newly raised god and your world is destroyed, you are destroyed along with it.

Thor wants to keep this particular world alive, not because this is the first world where beating the Snarl is possible, but because Hel's "ill-advised wager" keeps her power low, and Thor's relatively high. If this world ends up being the one that persists, said imbalance will remain forever.

Fifty gold says that it will never be spelled out that Thor cares about stopping the Snarl at this world primarily or entirely in order to keep Hel weak.

[Shining Wrath]

Hypothetically, what would put an end to the gods recreating worlds one after another?

If the sun had a life cycle like RW stars?
If there's some sort of entropy going on such that each world contains epsilon less divine energy than the previous iteration? And that would also motivate the gods to try to make each world last as long as possible.
A non-zero chance (fortunately not yet achieved) of the Snarl finding its way to the Outer Planes?

We know that some worlds last only a few years. The gods must have been born containing enough "nourishment" to gain very little food from the first few worlds and still survive. This raises the possibility of a "Prime Mover" somewhere that creates gods and "feeds" them their initial dose of energy.

[Liquor Box]

Do we think there is any way of increasing the chances of the Dark One surviving?

Goblins strike me as numerous (I think they are listed as common in the MM). Do most worship the Dark One? If the majority of the goblin population were to be slaughtered do we think that might provide sufficient souls to power him through to the next world? If there were time, do we think that a glut of non-goblins would also have to worship the Dark One to assist his survival.

[Fyraltari]

Sorry, should have made it clearer, the theory I was referring to was the theory that the Dark One is not the first god of a new quiddity.

But it still is. Thor said the Dark One was the first non-R/Y/B/G god ever and that the Western Pantheon at large does not even believe that's possible and has not contradicted himself since.
You are assuming that the "new gods" he talks about included new essences but nothing in-comic supports that.

No information contradicting the idea that the Dark one is the first god of a new colour to arise has been brought by this comic.

This is actually an interesting point; for all that Hel talks about it being a "bet with Thor," Loki set the terms and the rules only changed for Hel. Insofar as it's a bet with Thor, it's only to see if he gains more power through the "normal" method of soul power than through Hel's terms. Hel's the only one who has to actually agree to any changes in how she receives soul power.

If she wins Thor pays up, I guess. If Thor wins she pays him.

Will Durkon get to meet Tenrin before getting rezzed?

Yes or No?

I'll start off by betting 10 quintalooples on Yes, because although I may be wrong, I really hope it happens, and if it does I want to be able to say I predicted it!

I'd bet "No," mostly because he'd have to enter Valhalla (and Tenrin would still have to be there, not ascended or plane-merged or whatever) and I don't think he's going to get to do that.

Tenrin however could go to the cloud. Alternatively, as they are headed to Valahalla right now, it really depends on what's been going on downstairs.

I'd like for it to happen but I have no gut feeling or argument either way. No bet.

[Jasdoif]

Do we think there is any way of increasing the chances of the Dark One surviving?

Well...keeping the world from being destroyed seems like a good way.

If the majority of the goblin population were to be slaughtered do we think that might provide sufficient souls to power him through to the next world?

Minrah specifically mentioned the gods destroying the world when Thor answered that The Dark One might not survive. That'd slaughter the totality of the goblin population, not just a majority; and since we're not talking about the Snarl doing it, the souls would be intact.

[Liquor Box]

Hypothetically, what would put an end to the gods recreating worlds one after another?

If the sun had a life cycle like RW stars?
If there's some sort of entropy going on such that each world contains epsilon less divine energy than the previous iteration? And that would also motivate the gods to try to make each world last as long as possible.
A non-zero chance (fortunately not yet achieved) of the Snarl finding its way to the Outer Planes?

We know that some worlds last only a few years. The gods must have been born containing enough "nourishment" to gain very little food from the first few worlds and still survive. This raises the possibility of a "Prime Mover" somewhere that creates gods and "feeds" them their initial dose of energy.

Isn't the Dark One's plan to at least threaten to release the Snarl on the outer plains - hence him having more leverage than simply destroying the world? If so (and assuming his plan had some chance of success), then surely there must be a non-zero chance of the Snarl finding itself out there.

[Liquor Box]

Well...keeping the world from being destroyed seems like a good way.

Perhaps if the world survived for long enough, giving him time to accumulate sufficient souls, the Dark One would be able to survive its destruction.

Minrah specifically mentioned the gods destroying the world when Thor answered that The Dark One might not survive. That'd slaughter the totality of the goblin population, not just a majority; and since we're not talking about the Snarl doing it, the souls would be intact.

True.

[Kish]

The flashback of the bet being made shows that Thor was drunk as all hell when Loki pulled him and Hel into it. Sounds likely to me that he wasn't being cavalier. He was being drunk.

Or rather, he was being cavalier because he was drunk.

I was more referring to the fact that we now know that it is possible for gods to die.

We knew* that since the original crayon strips.

*For a definition of "knew" that admittedly rules out "Shojo was lying or misinformed and the Snarl never killed any gods."

[Heksefatter]

Loved the punchline on this one.

[LadyEowyn]

Well, that clears up a major point!

And gives a clear motivation for the Dark One and Redcloak to choose cooperation over the Plan - if only they can be convinced the other gods are telling the truth.

[Heksefatter]

And now I am imagining a stickverse treatise 'The Cosmotheological Significance of Jack Kirby.'

[Snails]

No Thor said "Loki was the first to realize what the existece of a puprle god could mean" not "Loki was the first to realize the Dark One was purple". Thay could see the Dark One was purple, they just did not make the connection with their problem instantly.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt there. But.

"Now that we know violet quiddity is possible, we should wait for a god that is more reasonable."

That does not make sense unless (1) TDO is the first violet god to have appeared so far, AND (2) they have not seen a non-red non-yellow non-blue divinity since the passing of the western pantheon.

Clearly, no god has seen/noticed green or violet or orange or indigo quiddity since that very first cataclysm.

So this is positive evidence that TDO's quiddity is a rare event, without known precedent.

(I hold out the possibility that it happened before and some unimportant wee god of a new color was simply not noticed before withering to nothing after world destruction. Thor is not lying -- his information may be imperfect, though.)

[Snails]

He seems convinced, however, that the chance of a repeat is 0.

Unclear. He seems to find the destruction of literally one million worlds more than "distasteful".

Thus trying the experiment one million or two million or five million times to find a nicer new god of a useful quiddity is something worthy of avoiding, if it so happens there might be a bird in the hand.

[Snails]

Perhaps if the world survived for long enough, giving him time to accumulate sufficient souls, the Dark One would be able to survive its destruction.

That is the implication, yes. That if this world can be nursed along for another thousand years or so, TDO has a good chance of making it, even if it is perhaps not guaranteed.

Or course, the other way for TDO to survive is if the Snarl does not rampage or rampages for an unexpectedly short duration. There are possible ways for that to happen, but such seems outside the influence of Thor and TDO or any god.

[Ruck]

If she wins Thor pays up, I guess. If Thor wins she pays him.

Yeah, that's how I figured it, for whatever definition of "pay up" this bet requires.

Still, though, I wonder if Thor isn't being overly held responsible for a bet where he didn't actually have to do anything to make it happen and where his participation has primarily been "notify his worshipers of how to avoid their souls being eternally tortured."

[Sea Change]

It's not completely beyond the pale, either. It's common for Nordic types to have bleached-blond hair from working in the sun, but still a red beard.
And in the Prologue to Snorri Sturluson's Edda (but not in the actual poem itself), Thor's hair is described as “Hár hans er fegra en gull” (“His hair is fairer than gold”).
Which could be a reference to it being beautifully kept as befits a warrior, or it could be a reference to a yellow-red like fire, or a golden yellow.
So it's up to a lot of interpretation, and Jack Kirby (and the colorist) aren't completely beyond the pale in giving Point Break golden locks.

In the myths, Thor is a redhead. In fact, he is known as Thor Redbeard.

When the comic book Thor was introduced, edited by Stan Lee, written by Larry Lieber, and drawn by Jack Kirby, he had long blonde hair.

Colornames are funny and not all languages have what english speaker might consider all-the-words. In old norse, gold was often referred to as 'red'. While it's true that getting pure gold in ancient times was not as easy and so is is possible that a lot of the gold that the old norse saw was contaminated by copper, we do see relics. Most of the gold from that time that we know about; that gold looks like gold. So Thor could have been a blond.

It could be that the comic is correct and Jack knew what he was talking about.

[Rrmcklin]

And now I'm left wondering how Redcloak will react to this. The gods are considering destroying the world right now, in part because of the Dark One's Plan A, and this information makes Plan B impossible.

Redcloak has been working to prove to himself (and Righteye) that all that he's done will be "worth it", but this information definitively says "no, it's not worth it".

I can very easily see that breaking him.