X-Men cartoon series discussion

[Gorgon_Heap]

There have been a number of X-Men cartoon series over the last three decades. Which do like or dislike, and why? High points, low points? Certain character changes or plots they got better or worse?

Small remarks to get the talk going: I think Evolution did by far the best job (better even than the comics) of showing Rogue and Nightcrawler in a true sibling relationship.

The original animated series' portrayal of Beast, though heavy-handed, was wonderful as both a scientist and a lover of the arts.

[Rynjin]

I've only seen the 90's version and Evolution. I enjoyed both, though that may just be nostalgia talking.

[TeChameleon]

I think I've seen... the majority of the X-Men cartoons?

Lesse:

X-Men 90s
X-Men Evolution
Wolverine and the X-Men
X-Men Anime(?)

That... seems to be it, really.

The 90s X-Men did by far the best job of adapting various comic plotlines, barring a bit of character re-juggling (X-Men mainstays Colossus and Nightcrawler were notably absent for the majority of the series). Also, by mostly sticking to, at most, minor redesigns of the comic costumes, it avoided ridiculous costuming abortions like X-Men Evolution Scarlet Witch's costume >.O The voices were also a lot of fun, even if the VA for Rogue could friggin' break glass with her shrieks. Apocalypse was an especial favourite of mine, the dude was so hammy that I'm pretty sure it broke kosher just to watch him.

X-Men Evolution was fun for the sheer variety of characters it had running around, and given that Nightcrawler is probably my favourite Marvel character full stop, it was nice to see him in a starring role. It also let Jean kick some ass, which was nice- barring her Phoenix episodes, 90s Jean spent a lot of time with JLU Martian Manhunter disease- clutching her temples and mumbling about great evil or powerful minds or whatever. The ending for Evolution was kind of weak, though, from what I remember.

What can I say about Wolverine and the X-Men..? It'd be sort of nice if they'd stop re-making the Dark Phoenix saga. And the whole Jean/Scott/Logan thing got old for me a long time ago... then again, I suppose it makes sense for Wolverine to be hitting on the resurrecting woman, given his track record with wives and lovers All that being said, the animation was pretty good generally speaking, and I kind of liked that Cyclops got to break some heads when not moping uselessly.

[Kitten Champion]

The 90's cartoon is pretty rough, as someone who didn't really watch it until very recently. Some of it's just dated cringey dialogue, but a lot of it is just the absence of subtlety. Don't get me wrong, some of the dialogue is wonderful, Gambit and Rogue in particularly have memorable banter and one-liners. It's just the general trend is for them to simply explain their thoughts and feelings - and as it's opera they're big feelings - in a very straightforward and emphatic fashion as much as possible. They especially want to get the whole Mutants-as-civil-rights metaphor across as much as possible to a presumably fairly young audience, so it's... a bit forced, I guess. It also scoots through stories at a mile-a-minute, which works for some and hurts others.

X-Men Evolution is fun. It's got its share of bad episodes certainly and sometimes the teenage/high school focus can diminish the sense of scale pretty severely, but for a lot of the characters Evolution's interpretation is simply much more likeable than their comic book counter-parts. Quicksilver is merely a brat and not a raging a-hole, Rogue is a quite charming lonely goth archetype while Scarlet Witch is edgy goth archetype girl, Toad is a relatable kid from the wrong side of the tracks, Jean Grey gets some characterization independent of her romantic interests, Nightcrawler remains adorable, and so on.

It also introduced X-23 as a concept, and while they didn't do much with her - I think she's in one episode - at the same time that made her more of a fresh concept. I mean, this was the time when Wolverine was steadily becoming the most overexposed hero for Marvel so a gender-swapped teenaged clone would normally be sigh-inducing fan-fictiony stuff, but as Evolution wasn't The Wolverine Show people were more inclined to see the potential the character had.

...in spite of the above paragraph, I liked Wolverine and the X-Men as well. It went the opposite way of the Evolution and 90's X-Men and largely presented the characters as adults both literally and mentally, then did X-Men stories competently. It did contrive a way to give Wolverine the spot light as the X-Men's saviour in a somewhat darker not-too-distant future while Charles Xavier is alone in a distant-er post-apocalyptic future and communicates backwards to him. So it's like a longer-form Days of Future Past with the details and characters jumbled around somewhat, I guess.

[Ramza00]

Small remarks to get the talk going: I think Evolution did by far the best job (better even than the comics) of showing Rogue and Nightcrawler in a true sibling relationship.

But they are not traditional siblings in the comics. Nightcrawler is the abandoned sibling, similar to the concept of A Game of Thrones / A Song of Ice and Fire “The Bastard.” The abandoned bastard who looks like a Demon.

While Rogue was raised in a family where she was adopted and she had her two lesbian moms (Mystique and Destiny, aka Raven and Irene.) This adopted family was not the family of Rogue’s birth, she had a normal childhood until her mutant powers manifested, she touched a boy, and then Rogue ran away with Raven and Irene adopting this runaway.

Except it is more complicated than that for Rogue was a character created in 1981 and was not given a backstory accessible to the readers much like the readers did not know Wolverines backstory. We were then given Rogues back story over a period of 25 years and with multiple writers. Thus the Chris Claremont part with Rogue being adopted with two lesbian moms came out in the 80s but was crystallized in 1994 (so after the x men cartoon and Chris Claremont leaving.) Likewise the stuff about kissing a boy and her normal family before mutant powers is a mixture of 2005 comic stuff, the x-men 2000 Bryan Singer movie, and some Chris Claremont stuff of the 1980s.

Chris Claremont after leaving the X-Men in 1991 and returning later in the 00s. (He left due to fighting with management / editorial.) Said his intent with Rogue was to have Raven / Mystique to be Rogues literal birth mother. Likewise in the comics Nightcrawler is the son of a count and Raven, but also son of Azariel and Mystique (it is complicated) , but Claremont’s original vision for Kurt / Nightcrawler was for Mystique to assume the form of a man and have impregenated Destiny. Editorial shot down this Claremont idea down thinking it would not work with the Comic Codes Authority, a self censorship arm of comics which wanted to make sure comics were safe for kids (this they get a stamp similar to a movie rating of G or PG.). Well the CCA was political and would not allow any gay stuff, or things against traditional morals, you could not make villainy look fun, no drug positive images, no horror (but there were to skate around the horror rules such as zombies, vampires, etc.)

————

So yeah 616 is a confusing mess due to mystery boxes and retcons.

[Aotrs Commander]

X-Men 1990 and Jubilee specifically was what got me into superheroes at all, period. Dialogue is badly hamstrung by the censor laws of the time (or higher-up editorial mandated-idiocy one or the other) as their total lack of ability to say "killed" or "dead," to even SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANTS is allowed to say was very painfull obvious.



I think it a crying travesty that Wolverine and the X-Men never got a second season.



Never thought much of Evolution, myself. Watched the first season and scattered episodes of the later ones, but I just didn't get on with it.

(Mate of mine refused point-blank to watch it after the first episode when he saw Wolverine recycling.)

[JadedDM]

The 90's cartoon was basically my introduction to X-Men. I mean, not totally. I was barely aware of them before that, from Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends and various toys I had as a kid (people would just buy me superhero actions figures, because I was a boy and that's what boys like, right? I was given a ton of Hot Wheels, too, even though I had never displayed any interest in cars). As a kid, I was way more into the Justice Friends.

Anyway, I was 10-15 when the 90's cartoon aired, and at the time, it was not like anything I had ever seen before. It was so...adult. Or felt that way to me. I'm sure if I rewatched it now, I'd probably cringe a lot. But dealing with heady subject matter like racism, civil rights, etc., was not something I had ever seen before in a Saturday morning cartoon. Heck, a main character dies in the series premier (although granted, it later turned out he had actually survived, but still...it blew young me's mind at the time.)

Despite that, my favorite iteration of the X-Men is Evolution. For several reasons. First, the X-Men were teenagers instead of adults, which at the time seemed fresh and interesting to me (I now know that's actually how they started in the comics, but I never read comics as a kid, so all of my knowledge at that point came from the cartoons). Second, no Scott/Jean/Logan love triangle at all. Logan is an adult and Jean is a teenager, so there's not even any ship-teasing. It's great, because it gives Scott a chance to actually be a character instead of an obstacle for Wolverine to overcome. Third, speaking of Wolverine, he's not the main character. Sure, he gets a few episodes that focus on him, but so does just about everyone else. He's not constantly hogging the spotlight. Fourth, it had a kicking opening theme--no offense to the 90's cartoon theme, which was also awesome, but I personally prefer Evolution's.



I could go on and on about Evolution. The voice acting (Venus Terzo, Christopher Judge, Scott McNeil), the beautiful animation, the fresh portrayal of certain characters (like Toad, who wound up becoming something of a dark horse). Sure, it had its flaws. They didn't know what to do with Spyke at all, for instance.

I did eventually see Wolverine and the X-Men at some point, a few years after it had come and gone. I went in suspecting I wouldn't like it from the title alone, and I was right. But I don't really remember much about it now. It's just...I like Wolverine fine, just not as a main character. And I think putting too much focus on him, to the exclusion of the rest of the cast, is a bad idea (looking at you, live-actions films).

[Prime32]

it had a kicking opening theme--no offense to the 90's cartoon theme, which was also awesome, but I personally prefer Evolution's.

But what about...


I liked how the Evolution intro got darker as the series did. It also did a great job of hyping Apocalypse in the last arc.

[Kitten Champion]

Ya'know, if I didn't know what X-Men was as a franchise and just saw that I'd assume it was an arcade beat'em'up game from the early 90's, probably made by Capcom. I know that there were several X-Men beat'em'up games in the rich mosaic that is the X-Men gaming library, but still.


Do the X-Men even fight the Brood in the 90's series? I know they go deeper into cosmic X-Men stuff later on, but the details are all a blur to me.

[Prime32]

Do the X-Men even fight the Brood in the 90's series? I know they go deeper into cosmic X-Men stuff later on, but the details are all a blur to me.

They do. They're not controlled by Magneto, but neither do all the heroes and villains form into lines and charge each other.

Ya'know, if I didn't know what X-Men was as a franchise and just saw that I'd assume it was an arcade beat'em'up game from the early 90's, probably made by Capcom. I know that there were several X-Men beat'em'up games in the rich mosaic that is the X-Men gaming library, but still.

And they had decent themes too. Wolverine got a bunch of different ones.

[JeenLeen]

I really liked the 90s X-Men as a kid and mostly liked it when I've rewatched it as an adult. Never got as much into the newer ones. I saw a few of the anime X-Men and, while I enjoyed it, I couldn't really get past the disconnect to what I expected. (It was actually my mom meant to buy the 90s cartoon DVD as a Christmas present, but got me the anime one instead.)

One thing that struck me as odd about it (and Spiderman cartoon of that time) was the commonplaceness of laser guns. But the Comic Code forbidding firearms makes that make sense (from an editorial sense)

[Rogar Demonblud]

The CCA lost most of its perceived authority in the Seventies. DC wanted to do a story involving drugs (the famed Speedy does heroin arc), the CCA said no, and DC published anyway without the little logo. It was their best selling issue that year, one they actually had to reprint. From that point on, neither of the Big Two bothered courting the CCA's approval. If an issue was unlikely to get the seal of approval, they just printed without it. Which led to some of the excesses of the following Iron Age, but also got us a Batman comic in fifteen different languages to teach kids about the dangers of landmines.

It also introduced X-23 as a concept, and while they didn't do much with her - I think she's in one episode - at the same time that made her more of a fresh concept.

She was definitely in two episodes, and maybe a third. The producers shied away from getting into her backstory's squickier elements, though.

[Ramza00]

The CCA lost most of its perceived authority in the Seventies. DC wanted to do a story involving drugs (the famed Speedy does heroin arc), the CCA said no, and DC published anyway without the little logo. It was their best selling issue that year, one they actually had to reprint. From that point on, neither of the Big Two bothered courting the CCA's approval. If an issue was unlikely to get the seal of approval, they just printed without it. Which led to some of the excesses of the following Iron Age, but also got us a Batman comic in fifteen different languages to teach kids about the dangers of landmines.

Marvel did not get rid of it till 2001 and DC till 2010. Yes they published comics with the CCA stamp some of the time ...
but their vast majority of lines was still using it in the 1980s and 1990s. But the CCA was also not a static thing. For example 1989 and prior you could not depict gay couples in a positive light and thus Rogue had two moms but Irene Adler was Raven's "friend" in the 1980s. When Northstar came out in 1992, announcing he was gay, with Alpha Flight #106 that comic had a CCA stamp on it even though that type of portrayal would not be possible a few years earlier and still get the stamp.

Comics "ages" changed due to multiple reasons not a single one, but the CCA is one of those reasons that was part of a greater cultural change.

CCA still existed in the 80s and 90s but it was not as restrictive as its earlier version for the comic companies were willing to do some adult comics such as Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, and so on. These commercial pressures caused the CCA itself to change some of the rules but not all of them, to bend what was possible instead of forcing a confrontation.

Yet the comic companies still wanted to do CCA generally even if they had some adult lines for many advertisers inside the comics would not want to operate without a CCA stamp. (Multiple revenue sources is good for the comic company.) Thus it was a complicated arrangement during these two decades of transition. But in 2001 when a X-Force comic was "required" to make a change or not get the stamp Marvel said I am tired of this and they did their own rating system away from the CCA.

I really liked the 90s X-Men as a kid and mostly liked it when I've rewatched it as an adult. Never got as much into the newer ones. I saw a few of the anime X-Men and, while I enjoyed it, I couldn't really get past the disconnect to what I expected. (It was actually my mom meant to buy the 90s cartoon DVD as a Christmas present, but got me the anime one instead.)

One thing that struck me as odd about it (and Spiderman cartoon of that time) was the commonplaceness of laser guns. But the Comic Code forbidding firearms makes that make sense (from an editorial sense)

TV shows were not regulated by the CCA. That was the producers of both X-Men and Spider-Man choosing what they wanted on their shows. Spider-Man had a more rigorous self censorship for example Spider-Man was not allowed to punch anyone and thus Spider-Man knocked people over via kick then, a flying kick using a webbing to get momentum, and web shooter stuff to restrain people. Can't have Spider-Man punch anyone for they were trying to have the show on the same station that catered to 7 years old with power rangers.

So yeah same idea, but not literally the same people.

She was definitely in two episodes, and maybe a third. The producers shied away from getting into her backstory's squickier elements, though.

X-23 was first in Evolution and later the comics the next year. Writter Craig Kyle wanted to tell Wolverine stories but thought kids could not identify with Wolverine who was the grizzly old teacher in the Evolution show. (The teacher who recycles in the first episode.)

[Kitten Champion]

She was definitely in two episodes, and maybe a third.

I was blending two episodes together in my mind. The one where she's introduced and attacks Logan and another episode where she joins with him to attack HYDRA who were the ones that made her and were hunting her down. She might've been in the series finale as well, as the finale had a lot of the extended cast there.

The producers shied away from getting into her backstory's squickier elements, though.

I doubt the Evolution writers were considering making her a brainwashed under-aged prostitute forced by a pimp into catering to sadistic clients at the time of her conception. Mostly they were going after "a Wolverine kids could relate to" not... what Joe Quesada wrote later.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Her initial creation was 'child assassin'. Targeting pedophiles came later (and the way the comic was written, might have been intended as a twisted reward for proper behavior--kill these people for us, we let you kill someone you want). Most of her initial character beats show up again with Hit Girl, although more gas lighting than brainwashing.

[Gorgon_Heap]

Ramza00
On Rogue and Nightcrawler: [wiggles fingers] Yeah, all that aside, I feel they are two damaged and lonely characters who deserve to have that kind of relationship in their lives.


Aotrs Commander

I think it a crying travesty that Wolverine and the X-Men never got a second season.

Agreed. It wasn’t the best cartoon in the world, but it was certainly good enough to warrant another season.

[Ramza00]

Ramza00
On Rogue and Nightcrawler: [wiggles fingers] Yeah, all that aside, I feel they are two damaged and lonely characters who deserve to have that kind of relationship in their lives.

Not disagreeing, I relate to Rogue very much and the concept of found family.

I also relate to Nightcrawler for other reasons. One of which is that blue swashbuckling elf is awesome! [My heart breaks reading Kurt's letter in Marauders #10 that came out this week.]

[Zevox]

The 90s X-Men was my first exposure to the team - and probably among my earlier exposure to superheroes in general, aside from maybe Superman. I know I liked it quite a bit at the time, and I did re-watch it once when I was older, but it's honestly been too long since either for me to say what I'd think of it now.

The one I have the most fondness for though is definitely X-Men: Evolution. Much of what JadedDM said about it goes for me as well, especially the Wolverine parts - Evolution is easily my favorite version of him, because he's a supporting character rather than a central one, and doesn't have a love triangle with Jean and Cyclops. Beyond that, though, that show is a large part of why I tend to think of Shadowcat and Nightcrawler among my favorite X-Men, and I like its version of Rogue more than any other I've seen. Plus I feel like seeing the characters as teenagers just makes so much sense, given mutant powers are supposed to start showing themselves at that age, and the student/teacher relationships you can do with it worked quite well. Moreover, it helped keep the series more grounded, with none of the out-there time travel or outer space elements that showed up in the other X-Men shows (even when Apocalypse showed up he was just an immortal ancient Egyptian mutant woken up from a long stasis, no time travel needed), which I definitely appreciate. X-Men stories with time travel or outer space parts tend to be my least favorite, while ones that remain more grounded in a relatively realistic world (just plus superpowers and the occasional giant robot) are by far my favorite. I actually intend to re-watch Evolution at some point, now that someone is sharing their Disney+ account with me. Just need to decide when I'll make the time for it.

Wolverine and the X-Men... well, it wasn't a bad show, but it really focuses on the parts of the X-Men I like the least. Wolverine as the main character, time-travel shenanigans that don't make sense when you stop to think about them built into the very basis of its storyline, little (or none, I've forgotten at this point as I only watched it once) of the more grounded story elements - it was in a way the opposite of Evolution, and thus not exactly the X-Men show for me.

[Blackhawk748]

They're all good, or at least solid shows, for their own reasons. Evolution had probably the best character stories even if the over all plots could get a bit weird or shallow.

Wolverine was just a solidly put together affair, though its denial of a second season really does suck.

90s had Jubilee. Which is why its the best.

[LibraryOgre]

Ya'know, if I didn't know what X-Men was as a franchise and just saw that I'd assume it was an arcade beat'em'up game from the early 90's, probably made by Capcom. I know that there were several X-Men beat'em'up games in the rich mosaic that is the X-Men gaming library, but still.


Do the X-Men even fight the Brood in the 90's series? I know they go deeper into cosmic X-Men stuff later on, but the details are all a blur to me.

It was, at one point, an arcade beat 'em up made by Capcom. ;-)

However, I grew up on the X-men... Classic X-men in the 80s ran some of the Claremont run, and the current stuff for the time. First storyline I recall is the Brood, I think in Denver, and Havok getting torn up about plasma-blasting an alien.

[Ramza00]

It was, at one point, an arcade beat 'em up made by Capcom. ;-)

The 1992 Arcade Game is made by Konami. In the 80s and 90s there was a half a dozen different game studios that made X-Men Games. But roughly around 1994 the main ones were Sega and Capcom. And in 2000 the main X-Men game maker was Activision.

But the famous 1992 Arcade Game is Konami. It uses the character designs from the 1989 X-Men TV show that was Pryde of the X-Men. Pryde of the X-Men was made by Marvel Productions where this production company was also producing over a dozen other tv shows in the 80s such as Transformers, GI Joe, Dungeons and Dragons, My Little Pony, etc. Well Marvel Productions got a budget for 13 episodes for the 1988 Cartoon Robocop, they later decided to only make 12 episodes of Robocop the animated series and instead use the 13th budget to do a Pilot for Pryde of the X-Men.

And the executives loved it, and released this pilot on VHS but also syndicated this single episode (You can see this episode free on youtube, I love the theme song.)

-----

But 1989 X-Men which borrows material similar to 1981 X-Men Comics with some 1975 designs as well...well it was not meant to be.

This is because of the whole tulmont of Marvel in the 1980s with first being sold to New Line in 1986, and then New Line had no money so they sold the Marvel Comics division to Ronald Perelman's MacAndrews & Forbes Holdings.

"It is a mini-Disney in terms of intellectual property," said Perelman. "Disney's got much more highly recognized characters and softer characters, whereas our characters are termed action heroes. But at Marvel we are now in the business of the creation and marketing of characters." from the 2002 book ComicWars

Perelman and other people then did lots of Marvel Comics reforms that launched the 90s styles of Marvel Comics, but also things like liscensing the content to game makers, collectible trading cards, etc. Skips explaining how Marvel did all these acquisitions of other things, and then goes bankrupt by 1996. The 90s were booming, then there was a bust in 1995, and the value of the company was overleveraged with all these acquisitions that they could not afford when the bust happened. (Thus Bankruptcy in 1996.)

The TV idea for X-Men was good under Perelman's logic but he no longer owned an animated studio for he did not buy Marvel Productions who made Pryde of the X-Men in 1989. Now Perelmann signed the checks but it was Margaret Loesch who made 1992 X-Men happen, she was involved with the 1989 Pryde of the X-Men Pilot but in 1991 she became head of Fox Children Network / later Fox Kids. Thus she orded a 13 episode series and Saban Entertainment produced it but also subcontracted out work with several other companies. Well AKOM Production, Ltd. (Animation KOrea Movie) did not finish the first few episodes in time so there was missing animation, and thus what was shown in the first showing vs later a finished 1992 pilot (in 1993) is not the same thing.

Oh yeah subcontracting with multiple studios and showing the episodes as soon as they were finished is why there are so many animation errors, dialogue and visual are often not in sync (in some ways the 1992 x-men is watching an operetta radio drama with visual images instead of a synchronized product.) The various visual teams and voice work teams were not coordinating and cooperating together, for everything was done quick, and done on a budget.

Oh yeah Marvel going bankrupt in 1996 is why there is two season finales (the Beyond Good and Evil 4 parter, and then the season 5 series finale.) Except due to how they were releasing everything as soon as it was finished the Series Finale of Season 4 Beyond Good and Evil airs in Nov 1995, but 6 episodes of Season 4 air later with the last one in May 1996. Season 5 is Sept 1996 to Sept 1997 with 14 episodes but Saban had to finance more than they thought was going to happen midway for Marvel goes bankrupt in Dec 1996.

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The 90s are weird but god I love how the 1992 show introduced me to this wonderful world of X-Men and Comics.

[Velaryon]

I loved the 90's X-Men cartoon (except for that last season where they changed animation studios, of course). I do have three little issues with it, though:
1. I think it was a little too squeaky clean, though since it was marketed toward little kids and I was a little kid at the time, I'm not going to hold this against it too much.
2. Jean Grey was incredibly pathetic and useless. To this day I find her completely uninteresting as a character, and that began with this cartoon.
3. Keeping the regular cast small meant leaving out some of my favorite X-Men, most notably Nightcrawler.

That said, it was still overall one of my favorite incarnations of the X-Men. None of the films come even remotely close for me, nor any of the cartoons that came afterward.


I didn't care for X-Men: Evolution when it was on, and dismissed the "mutants in high school" bit as gimmicky and lame. That said, when I watched it years later on Netflix, I found that it was better than I expected. Still a distant 2nd place in my mind, but as others have said I liked that Wolverine took a bit more of a backseat.


I didn't like Wolverine & the X-Men at all, but I don't remember enough of it to really say why.

[Gorgon_Heap]

Originally posted by Velaryon

2. Jean Grey was incredibly pathetic and useless. To this day I find her completely uninteresting as a character, and that began with this cartoon.

In perfect honesty, this is how I've felt about both Jean and Scott pretty much forever. If Jean didn't have those big calamitous events in the comics that are so infamous, I would know nothing about her because there really isn't anything to know. She's incredibly bland.

I thought the same of Scott in all iterations until (in the comics) he started with Emma Frost. Now there's an interesting character, and being with her necessitated changes.

As for Wolverine stepping out of the spotlight in Evolution, it sounds like most agree it was a good call. I recall a character in a comic - maybe Quentin Quire? - referring to Wolverine as, "the poster boy for mutant cool." And that's kinda the problem. It is a great character, but he became way too big in a broad cast of other great characters (with a few duds).

[Prime32]

2. Jean Grey was incredibly pathetic and useless. To this day I find her completely uninteresting as a character, and that began with this cartoon.

Seems to be a recurring thing with telepaths. Either they win instantly, or they fall around screaming in pain all the time.

[t209]

Seems to be a recurring thing with telepaths. Either they win instantly, or they fall around screaming in pain all the time.

In 40k, it is expected to be inconsistent.
Though in context, getting powers from space hell might not be the most reliable of powers.

[Velaryon]

Originally posted by Velaryon


In perfect honesty, this is how I've felt about both Jean and Scott pretty much forever. If Jean didn't have those big calamitous events in the comics that are so infamous, I would know nothing about her because there really isn't anything to know. She's incredibly bland.

I thought the same of Scott in all iterations until (in the comics) he started with Emma Frost. Now there's an interesting character, and being with her necessitated changes.

As for Wolverine stepping out of the spotlight in Evolution, it sounds like most agree it was a good call. I recall a character in a comic - maybe Quentin Quire? - referring to Wolverine as, "the poster boy for mutant cool." And that's kinda the problem. It is a great character, but he became way too big in a broad cast of other great characters (with a few duds).

Oh, absolutely. Wolverine is a great character, but he's easily the single most overexposed character in all of Marvel, if not all of comics. Is there a major Marvel team he hasn't been a member of at some point?

[Rogar Demonblud]

The Fantastic Four and the Great Lakes Avengers.

And I think Batman is still more overexposed than Wolverine, but not by much.

[Velaryon]

The Fantastic Four and the Great Lakes Avengers.

And I think Batman is still more overexposed than Wolverine, but not by much.

He was (sort of) part of the Fantastic Four for a very short time. Here's what Wikipedia says on it: " A temporary lineup from Fantastic Four #347–349 (December 1990 – February 1991) consisted of the Hulk (in his "Joe Fixit" persona), Spider-Man, Wolverine, and Ghost Rider (Daniel Ketch)." I'm not sure if it technically counts in-universe, but that was the lineup in a short run of comics labeled as Fantastic Four, and that's good enough for me.

I know nothing of Great Lakes Avengers and will assume that you're correct there.

As for Batman... you may have a point, but if so it's certainly not for lack of trying on Marvel's part.

[TeChameleon]

Early Jean (like, Jack and Stan-era X-Men) could be hilariously weird, and was a more rounded character than she was later blandified into. And she and Scott had legitimate chemistry in the early days. Then plot happened, Jean died, and Scott was suddenly hooked up with Jean's clone, then her clone went nuts and was possessed(?), then the clone was just sort of put on a bus and dropped out of existence while Scott hooked back up with the resurrected Jean. And then Madelyne Pryor (the Jean-clone) was popped back into existence by the alternate reality version of her son (who was the original Jean's sort-of son in that reality, not hers) who shacked up with her.

... Comics, everyone.

[Gorgon_Heap]

... Comics, everyone.

Hahahahah!!