A Practical Guide to Evil

[Florian]

When your argument is "yes they would, because reality would change to make them" you've kind of defeated your own point there, I fear.

Nope.

Ok, see, this is a very classical setup. What we understand as "free will" exists only because the current balance between Above and Below. Both sides deal in absolutes, tho, so when one side would win and dictate how reality is, scrap that free will part.

Think about it a bit: The whole theme that Black is based on (And Cat adopts, too), is being angry about Above not accepting that this free will thing is to be considered "good" and adopt it, all the while relying on Below providing and empowering it, but being disgusted at what it forms it can take.

This echoes the classic Morcock stories in that both sides of the conflict hold some value to us, but the extremes are anathema to human existence as we know it.

[Aotrs Commander]

You know what, folks; I've done pointless enough arguing on the internet today (and something in one of the other threads has annoyed and sickened me to the limits of my civility), so rather than wind myself up further, I'm just going to state (as I often have to do): "any creature which is 'beyond such petty conciets as good and evil' is automatically Evil;" you can't be "beyond" good or evil anymore than you can be "beyond" maths (and please note that I am NOT using my typical qualified generalisation but an absolute: no amount of debate is going to shift that position ever) and then drop this line of conversation and go back into my little corner like a relatively well-behaved undead omnicial abomination. Tomorrow will doubtless see Cat Doing A Hilarious Thing anyway and that will inevitably cheer me up or at least make me slightly less desirous of traumatising all of humanity into behaving like nice little boys and girls.
Hahahaha, no, you guys have totally long passed that threshold, you're going to be so screwed one day.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: Entreaty

Show

'souls sworn to Endurance' - is this the first mention of what I suspect is a Choir of Endurance? So far I can only remember Judgement, Mercy, and Contrition being Choirs/Virtues

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Entreaty

Show

'souls sworn to Endurance' - is this the first mention of what I suspect is a Choir of Endurance? So far I can only remember Judgement, Mercy, and Contrition being Choirs/Virtues

Not a spoiler

The choirs mentioned so far are:

Judgement, Contrition, Mercy, Endurance (first chapter of book 4 has a mention), and Compassion.

Compassion even gets a mention of what being touched by Compassion is like: they are unable to take a life, no matter how vile their opponent.

[The Glyphstone]

Right, I do remember that mention of Compassion now that you bring it up.

Now I have a very funny image of a Hero of Endurance being the stereotypical gym coach, toughening people up for their own good and screaming about how pain is just weakness leaving the body.

[Aotrs Commander]

Spoiler: Entreaty

Show

So, was I, like, the only one to pick up on that Saint has murdered hundreds of people who sole crime was to get sick?

Because unholy fracking crap that's... Just... I can't EVEN.

I mean, clearly plagues can't be affected by magic, that's why Pilgrim can't do anything like, I don't know, create a magical plague to murder a whole settlement to get to the enemy, can he?



Again, isn't "drop the nukes to destroy the infected" always coming from MY end of the alignment pool?



And then Pilgrim is on top of that, like "you should feel sorry that she's been a hammer so long she sees everything as nails, so cut her some slack when she goes out and murders all your mates and probably you as well, she's been hard-done to."

And is surprised when Cat is, "um, no, frack off."



I stand flabbergasted at more the display of more gall than the entire series of Asterix albums to date.




And how is ENDURANCE a virtue? Are the choirs just, like, picking semi-random vaguly-people-trait orientated verbs now? Should we expect a choir of thiftyiness or perception? Or possibly copulation or flatulence (presumably an Agnel of flatulence makes everyone in the area die from explsovie gastro-intestinal distress...) I tell you four we WON'T see: benevolence, forgiveness, introspection and tolerance.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Entreaty

Show

So, was I, like, the only one to pick up on that Saint has murdered hundreds of people who sole crime was to get sick?

Because unholy fracking crap that's... Just... I can't EVEN.

I mean, clearly plagues can't be affected by magic, that's why Pilgrim can't do anything like, I don't know, create a magical plague to murder a whole settlement to get to the enemy, can he?



Again, isn't "drop the nukes to destroy the infected" always coming from MY end of the alignment pool?



And then Pilgrim is on top of that, like "you should feel sorry that she's been a hammer so long she sees everything as nails, so cut her some slack when she goes out and murders all your mates and probably you as well, she's been hard-done to."

And is surprised when Cat is, "um, no, frack off."



I stand flabbergasted at more the display of more gall than the entire series of Asterix albums to date.




And how is ENDURANCE a virtue? Are the choirs just, like, picking semi-random vaguly-people-trait orientated verbs now? Should we expect a choir of thiftyiness or perception? Or possibly copulation or flatulence (presumably an Agnel of flatulence makes everyone in the area die from explsovie gastro-intestinal distress...) I tell you four we WON'T see: benevolence, forgiveness, introspection and tolerance.

Yeah, this is not a setting where virtues are good news. Heck, the setting seems to treat the conflict as oddly morally gray, as if it were a battle between law and chaos rather than good and evil. Heck, it seems almost like a philosophical debate rather than a moral one - is the onus of choice on the gods (the "Good" position) or on the individual (the "Evil" position)? Should you do things because you have the power and will to see them through? Or because the gods granted you the power to see their will done?

Spoiler: Entreaty

Show

Tariq is in a transitional state, right now. He's believed the world to be one thing for his entire life, had that worldview reinforced by every experience, and right now he's stuck with the a proof he can't escape that he's missed something. Everyone he's been forced to fight before followed a similar story: good man goes bad, or bad man goes really bad. For all the trouble he causes, the Tyrant is something Tariq is far more comfortable with. He's used to dealing with the Traitorous-es and Nefarious-es and the Vindictives and even the Irritants. Heck, even Malicia, the "building an Evil Empire that actually works" Dread Empress, isn't really that surprising. Her priorities are different, perhaps, but in the end she dances to the same music as any Dread Emperor. Even if nobody likes it, shades of gray do not break a black and white world.

Black and Cat, however, are a splash of color in the black and white, you might say. Black is pretty much exactly the counterpoint to Saint - a hard edged pragmatist who will happily slaughter people who are supposedly on "his" side because they are doing it wrong. That shouldn't exist. And then there's Cat, who (if she can be compared to anyone) can probably best be compared to Tariq himself, only far younger and still in the middle of all those mistakes that formed him into the biggest hero on the continent. Both of them adopt the name and philosophy of Evil, but not, as it were, the morality of it.

Tariq is in the middle of trying to work his way through this transition. He doesn't want to be Cat's enemy, as he's beginning to see something he feels he should be fostering rather than hindering. Cat killing Saint, for whatever reason, will cement the hostility he doesn't want. But just because he's opening up his mind to new possibilities doesn't mean his mind is open. He has not advanced to the point that he can even grasp the suggestion that Evil people are people, too. That they can have a family they love and protect, rather than merely being a nest of vipers that will happily turn on anything and anyone if it gets them even the slightest advantage, with the occasional eye candy slash bed warmer they ultimately will view as less person than possession. So, when Cat turns his plea around, asks for the same considerations for her own people, he's caught completely flat-footed and unable to comprehend the suggestion for too long.

That they came to an accord at all is what surprised me.

[The Glyphstone]

Dont know why it surprises you. I've seen lists of classical virtues with stuff like Fortitude and Temperance on them, so Endurance is absolutely plausible.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Entreaty

Show

So, was I, like, the only one to pick up on that Saint has murdered hundreds of people who sole crime was to get sick?

Because unholy fracking crap that's... Just... I can't EVEN.

I mean, clearly plagues can't be affected by magic, that's why Pilgrim can't do anything like, I don't know, create a magical plague to murder a whole settlement to get to the enemy, can he?



Again, isn't "drop the nukes to destroy the infected" always coming from MY end of the alignment pool?



And then Pilgrim is on top of that, like "you should feel sorry that she's been a hammer so long she sees everything as nails, so cut her some slack when she goes out and murders all your mates and probably you as well, she's been hard-done to."

And is surprised when Cat is, "um, no, frack off."



I stand flabbergasted at more the display of more gall than the entire series of Asterix albums to date.




And how is ENDURANCE a virtue? Are the choirs just, like, picking semi-random vaguly-people-trait orientated verbs now? Should we expect a choir of thiftyiness or perception? Or possibly copulation or flatulence (presumably an Agnel of flatulence makes everyone in the area die from explsovie gastro-intestinal distress...) I tell you four we WON'T see: benevolence, forgiveness, introspection and tolerance.

Spoiler: Entreaty

Show

I took the plague part to be metaphorical, though I suppose there is nothing saying it is. Like a Ratman invasion might be a 'plague', and she arrives after hundreds of people have died, but not thousands. Or a zombie plague. Or, well you get the idea.

Endurance is a common enough Virtue as Glyphstone points out. Pushing through the bad stuff in one's life, without letting it ruin your opinion of other people? It's pretty virtuous and hard to do. I think a good way to see it as a virtue is someone who volunteer at a soup kitchen in a sketchy neighborhood is one day mugged, and still continues to volunteer at that soup kitchen because the people still need help, even if they had harmed them.

[McNum]

Spoiler: Entreaty

Show

I stand flabbergasted at more the display of more gall than the entire series of Asterix albums to date.

Just want to point out that I adore this phrase. Excellent wordsmithing there!

[Noldo]

Am I only one who is sure that there is some foul play going on with Rogue Sorcerer?

[tyckspoon]

Am I only one who is sure that there is some foul play going on with Rogue Sorcerer?

No, there's pretty much guaranteed to be something going on with him; the author has been too careful to avoid letting us know basically *anything* about him for there not to be something. He's one big Unspoken Plan Guarantee, it's mostly a question of which side he's actually working for.. and that goes beyond just the.. what is it, four sides that are present here currently (Cat, Pilgrim, Tyrant, and Dead King all representing their own interests and wanting different resolutions to the situation, although Cat + Pilgrim have significant overlap. They both have "Arcadia doesn't explode on reality and destroy hundreds of thousands of lives and soldiers" as a high priority ) He could be an agent of an outside power wanting to exert some influence on the situation.

[Excession]

Am I only one who is sure that there is some foul play going on with Rogue Sorcerer?

I don't think he'll be surviving the coming fight. I mean, do we even know his name, or just his Name? It's a bad sign when you're the least known member of a group.

Spoiler: Entreaty

Show

Tariq should have been more careful with that redemption arc he was forging for Cat. Those can cut both ways.

And wow, with all this crap Saint has gone through by this point, especially the way Tariq described it, it almost seems like when she dies it would be a mercy. My money is on Tariq killing Laurence.

No, there's pretty much guaranteed to be something going on with him; the author has been too careful to avoid letting us know basically *anything* about him for there not to be something. He's one big Unspoken Plan Guarantee, it's mostly a question of which side he's actually working for.. and that goes beyond just the.. what is it, four sides that are present here currently (Cat, Pilgrim, Tyrant, and Dead King all representing their own interests and wanting different resolutions to the situation, although Cat + Pilgrim have significant overlap. They both have "Arcadia doesn't explode on reality and destroy hundreds of thousands of lives and soldiers" as a high priority ) He could be an agent of an outside power wanting to exert some influence on the situation.

I think Cat also has "turn this fragment of Arcadia into a magic superhighway to foster trade between nations", even if she may not have thought through all the implications of that quite yet.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

Show

So, was I, like, the only one to pick up on that Saint has murdered hundreds of people who sole crime was to get sick?

Because unholy fracking crap that's... Just... I can't EVEN.

I mean, clearly plagues can't be affected by magic, that's why Pilgrim can't do anything like, I don't know, create a magical plague to murder a whole settlement to get to the enemy, can he?



Again, isn't "drop the nukes to destroy the infected" always coming from MY end of the alignment pool?

Are you honestly so blinded by bias that you cant see or imagine, that when someone like you are affected that badly by the though,
then it would wreck whatever decent person had to do it even worse?

There are a 100 reasons for why it might be nececary to do so.
Like the plague being magical and incureable just for a start.
To it turning the victims into plague demons.

[tyckspoon]

Spoiler

Show

There are a 100 reasons for why it might be nececary to do so.
Like the plague being magical and incureable just for a start.
To it turning the victims into plague demons.

Spoiler

Show

I'm usually on the 'Being on the side of Good doesn't mean being a good person' side of these arguments, but.. remember how they dealt with people who had been exposed to the Demons? Destroyed for their own good and the safety of everybody else? I don't recall anybody complaining about the morality of that or that they should have quarantined them and sought a cure.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

Show

I think perhaps its easier to view the sides as Above And Below.

But that aside, yeah thats another excellent example of where someone like Saint could be forced to kill a lot of people.
Not because they had deserved it. But simply because the demon influence is going to spread otherwise and corrupt even more of creation.

[Calemyr]

Ante... in this story... that's a promising chapter name.

Spoiler: Ante

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I am curious how genuine Roland/Rogue Sorcerer is being. On one hand, we are way overdue for a sympathetic hero, and Rosie doesn't count. On the other, as the comments for the Guide point out, this is exactly the kind of game Neshema would play with such a straight-forward campaign as theirs. The obvious traitor and the surprise conspirator, guiding the group exactly where they need to go with subtlety and patience. And yes, for all his antics, Kairos is extremely capable of subtlety and patience.

Of course, Neshema himself is probably the biggest mystery. He plays games so long that Sve Noc comes off as impetuous in comparison. A lot of his game really depends on whether or not he still genuinely considers Cat a peer. The story becomes so much more interesting if that's the case. "You think I'd be disappointed that you didn't become a god? I would be disappointed if you did! Gods are useless, so powerful and yet so utterly incapable of wielding that power. How much better to be just a little bit weaker but unbound by their limitations. And don't lament your lack of immortality. Gods can die, I've seen enough of them do so. Agelessness is enough..." That kind of thing.

It might just be me, but I do find it tantalizing to think that all of this - the intrigue in Keter, the assault on Procer, this game in Liesse - is a play to create a proper peer, a slow process to force Cat to evolve the way she needs to in order to fit in his peerage, a group that is probably limited to Ranger, Bard, and very likely Triumphant. Neshema said when they first met that would be on opposite sides at times, that they would betray one another and hurt one another, but in the end it wouldn't matter. Because, for their kind, such history is ephemeral. Among other things, this would mean that Cat, the Black Queen, First of the Night, former Duchess of Moonless Nights, worthy rival to two of the greatest heroes of the era, is still in the bush leagues compared to where this story is going.

Of course, this also means that Neshema might not want Cat to throw her own crown in, as she clearly intends to.

[The Glyphstone]

My utterly unsupported tinfoil hat theory:

Spoiler: Rogue Sorcerer

Show

Is actually Black's soul in his body, after the real RS accidentally/deliberately did some sort of soul-swap and got himself trapped.

[tyckspoon]

My utterly unsupported tinfoil hat theory:

Spoiler: Rogue Sorcerer

Show

Is actually Black's soul in his body, after the real RS accidentally/deliberately did some sort of soul-swap and got himself trapped.

Spoiler

Show

Actually being possessed by Black seems particularly unlikely to me, if only because that seems like the kind of thing that like four out of five people present should be able to see/feel/somehow identify, and Pilgrim wouldn't be treating him like this if he was able to Behold Black's soul controlling the body. I would not, however, be at all surprised if carrying around Black's soul (and, presumably, communicating with it in some fashion) has influenced his worldview a bit. Black's best power was always selling other people on his ideas.. and Rogue Sorcerer is sounding kind of Black-ish, with his concern not for what is 'Good' or 'Evil', right or wrong, but rather what the goal is and what the best tactical approach to achieving it is. It's not something that is unique to Amadeus, sure, but he is the character most prominently associated with ideas like being concerned that something is the incorrect choice not because it is wrong, but because it would be 'a mistake.' (Doesn't hurt that that's literally the last thing he said when he was last a viewpoint character.)

[McNum]

Spoiler: Rogue Sorcerer

Show

Maybe the Rogue Sorcerer is Rogue not as in the character class who is sneaky and can open locks and stuff, but Rogue as in "Aligned with neither Above nor Below". Grey Names exist, like Squire, so maybe Rogue Sorcerer is one of them?

He's aligned with the heroes because the Dead King is someone that needs to be stopped, not from any ideology of Good. Which is why he's calling out the supposed Good people in that the Black Queen, of all people, is the one trying to save lives. If so, he probably would work with Cat to defeat the Dead King if that what it takes.

[Florian]

It´s more likely that "Rogue Sorcerer" works above and beyond the normal boundaries of a given culture / society.

[lord_khaine]

My utterly unsupported tinfoil hat theory:

Spoiler

Show

This is 100% not likely to be the case for a couple of reasons.
Tyckspoon already covered extremely unlikely it is to hide something like this from Pilgrim.
But also, i dont think Black is enough of an actor to pull it off. He is both insane, and utterly disconected from his own emotions.

It´s more likely that "Rogue Sorcerer" works above and beyond the normal boundaries of a given culture / society.

Yeah i agree. Pilgrim would not have placed the degree of trust on him we have seen, if he wasnt a hero.

edit.
I also found it directly hilarious how the older heroes directly stated that for all sense and purpose it was a Cliff.
Even though RS called it a balcon :D

[The Glyphstone]

Even Cat called it a cliff, because that's how the stories work.

[DaedalusMkV]

You've just got to love the Tyrant. The kid has style oozing out of his pores. You want to get rid of the hero but not kill them, while sending a bit of a message. What do you do? For a sane person, you purposefully let them run away while shouting threats after them. The Tyrant? Have your minions drag him to a cliff while you monologue your evil plan to him, then loudly proclaim that "The pesky hero has been dealt with. Nobody could survive this!" and have your minions throw him off. How could any hero possibly fail to survive that? You really know he wasn't taking any chances with the Sorcerer getting killed when he took the opportunity to loudly proclaim he would never see him again. The fact that the Tyrant's nearly as good with narrative combat as Cat while also being a cackling, gleeful, card-carrying villain consistently makes him one of my favorite characters in this series.

Spoiler: Current Chapter

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I really hope that the Rogue Sorcerer is being honest here, because it would be nice to have a Hero that actually deserves the name again. We haven't had that since the Ashen Priestess got snuffed out a few books ago. Pilgrim's too willing to sacrifice lives for the moral high ground, White Knight is too much of a puppet to cosmic horrors, the Bard is too much of an eldritch abomination that feeds on human lives, the Saint is basically the definition of Black and White Insanity and every other hero we've run into is just an inexperienced rube that the big names used as cannon fodder against Cat. The Sorcerer's attitude is what the Good team should be aspiring to. "We're enemies, but dragging thousands of other people into our fight isn't how it should be done. And if the price you pay for winning is more than the victory's worth, maybe it's time to sit down with the other side and figure out your options" is easily the most mature attitude towards the Good-Evil conflict we've seen out of anyone on Team Good so far.

[lord_khaine]

Even Cat called it a cliff, because that's how the stories work.

Yeah thats the hilarious bit. Its RS who where litterally thrown out over it.
And yet everyone casually corrects him on it it not being a balcony like he had not been there

You really know he wasn't taking any chances with the Sorcerer getting killed when he took the opportunity to loudly proclaim he would never see him again.

He is like an actor having been told this specific role require som extra ham :P

Spoiler: Current Hero Lineup

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And yeah i also do think RS is about everything a hero should be.
Not yet caught enough up into the game that he actually see it like a game at times. Like Cat or Pilgrim does.
Still having a spot of idealism and conviction, without being powerless or naive like the former the novices Cat crushed.

At the same time though, The Wandering Bard isnt a hero. Or a Villain. She is something different.
She has in part acted as a spokesperson for both Above and Below.

As for Pilgrim and Saint, then i can honestly understand why they have become as they are.
Pilgrim is someone who has had Abyss watcing as his occupation for a lifetime. Saint has been a diver.
Cat has for a large part been fighting other villains. So if we take all the horrors, and all the crap and all the gore
she has had to go though over the last couple years, and then multiply it with 20, then its likely close to what those 2 heroes went though.

[Calemyr]

Oh, this was glorious.

Spoiler: Treachery

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Kairos is an absolute treat, as usual. I love that Cat was banking on his particular brand of madness to screw up the Skein. And it wasn't without foreshadowing, either. The whole Isabella the Mad (think that was the name) story has been bandied about more than once, although usually in the context of countering the Augur. Naturally, it also applies to the Skein as well, and Kairos easily qualifies as every bit as mercurial as the unwitting general.

And then the Dead King screws up, which struck me as kinda strange at first. Neshema has been at this game for a very long time and plays it flawlessly, how could he make such a simple mistake? It makes sense, though. DK is trying to negotiate and manipulate a number of people with very diverse mindsets at the same time. Revealing Cat to be a liar would be a great way to turn Saint, and could have a chance against Tariq. Appealing to logic (that the foundations of Cat's argument were predicated on a false assumption) would have worked against Cat or Roland. Against Kairos, however, he effectively just blinked, and in that instance all of the power of the Dead King works against him. Kairos prefers big game when he can see an opening.

Also love the Saint, here. Faced with an undead legend and a legion of devils, her only complaint is that "this is going to take a while". I adore stories about heroes with that fearless-but-jaded mindset. Just a shame she's most certainly not a friend.

And then we have Black's soul, ripped from his body and enslaved and offered as a negotiating chip, just watching with obvious interest. He doesn't want to die, I'm sure, but I don't think it's a concern that even ranks in the top ten topics on his mind right now.

This is going to be most interesting.

Spoiler: Current Hero Lineup

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And yeah i also do think RS is about everything a hero should be.
Not yet caught enough up into the game that he actually see it like a game at times. Like Cat or Pilgrim does.
Still having a spot of idealism and conviction, without being powerless or naive like the former the novices Cat crushed.

At the same time though, The Wandering Bard isnt a hero. Or a Villain. She is something different.
She has in part acted as a spokesperson for both Above and Below.

As for Pilgrim and Saint, then i can honestly understand why they have become as they are.
Pilgrim is someone who has had Abyss watcing as his occupation for a lifetime. Saint has been a diver.
Cat has for a large part been fighting other villains. So if we take all the horrors, and all the crap and all the gore
she has had to go though over the last couple years, and then multiply it with 20, then its likely close to what those 2 heroes went though.

Spoiler: Current Hero Lineup

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Cat, Pilgrim, and Saint are definitely a different breed of champions. I think they're Black and Malicia taken to their logical extreme: they see that the status quo doesn't work and adjust themselves to nail down strategies that will work, even when they fly in the face of their supposed morals, because morals that achieve nothing are pointless at best. So Black can become obsessed with practical and fair governance and justice, while Tariq can justify killing entire towns in less than pretty ways to stop a villain. So Cat can oppose every Evil faction she comes across while suing for peace with the Good ones despite being a villain herself, while Saint can casually (and happily) chat about butchering the legitimate leadership of a Good faction.

The Bard, however... I don't think we know enough about the Bard to really understand what she is. She serves as Emissary of the Below one moment, then the voice of Wisdom for champions of Good the next, always with an earnestness that doesn't seem to be tied to the morality of the moment. Calling her a hero or villain seems to be missing the point. I think she's the Dungeon Master - the focal point of the story, of all stories, and arbiter of how they should flow. And to be honest, I still can't shake the gut feeling she's in some way Dread Empress Triumphant. I don't know how that would work, but I just keep circling back to that conclusion. It's just something about how they both transcend the story...

[tyckspoon]

Spoiler: Ch.43: Treachery

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I feel like the author didn't do a great job explaining why Kairos turned on Neshamah here. There's like five different motivations I can come up with/have seen other comments offer. On the other hand, they all seem pretty plausible, and it is fitting to Kairos to not know exactly why he does anything.. indeed, there's a plausible suggestion in this chapter that Kairos himself doesn't know sometimes and prefers it that way. Personally, I think Skein offended Kairos by trying to control his actions in such an obvious brute-force way, and then Neshamah further broke the rules (such as they are) of Kairos's game by making such a direct and open statement. Of course Cat is lying to Kairos, they're all lying to each other about almost everything. The whole point is to figure out how to communicate around that by correctly picking out the hidden messages and meanings placed in all the lies, half-truths, and friendly insults. Calling it out like that is just tasteless and not fun, so Kairos sided with the one who is still playing 'correctly'. At least for now.

So.. what do we think REND is being directed at? Skein (with possible damage to Neshamah as he is currently directly controlling the body?) The devils and undead army Saint is fighting? The whole Arcadian shard?

[The Glyphstone]

Kairos is like the Joker. If he needs a reason for his decisions, he prefers them to be multiple-choice questions.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Ch.43: Treachery

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I feel like the author didn't do a great job explaining why Kairos turned on Neshamah here. There's like five different motivations I can come up with/have seen other comments offer. On the other hand, they all seem pretty plausible, and it is fitting to Kairos to not know exactly why he does anything.. indeed, there's a plausible suggestion in this chapter that Kairos himself doesn't know sometimes and prefers it that way. Personally, I think Skein offended Kairos by trying to control his actions in such an obvious brute-force way, and then Neshamah further broke the rules (such as they are) of Kairos's game by making such a direct and open statement. Of course Cat is lying to Kairos, they're all lying to each other about almost everything. The whole point is to figure out how to communicate around that by correctly picking out the hidden messages and meanings placed in all the lies, half-truths, and friendly insults. Calling it out like that is just tasteless and not fun, so Kairos sided with the one who is still playing 'correctly'. At least for now.

So.. what do we think REND is being directed at? Skein (with possible damage to Neshamah as he is currently directly controlling the body?) The devils and undead army Saint is fighting? The whole Arcadian shard?

Spoiler: Treachery

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Kairos turned on Neshemah twice, here.

Turn 1: Oh, hey, Cat's still in the game! And she's got a play yet to make. She could, and would, and will destroy this place if she can't have it, which would mean I will lose it either way, if I'm against her. Of course, she could be lying. I think she's lying. I'm sure she's lying. But I'm not certain she's lying... I love it! Let's see where this leads!

Turn 2: You do realize that I didn't really care that Cat lied in the first place, don't you? I love a bald-faced lie if it's told with enough panache! But you? You just gave me a gift I can't resist. A demigod, an unliving legend in our time, trying to weasel with me? Are you actually scared, Dead King? Are you, really? Oh, I'm gonna enjoy tearing you down from your throne!

Cat spelled it out in this chapter: Kairos dominates those who show weakness to him. That's why Cat went to such comical lengths to insult him in her letter - she wanted there to be no suggestion that she's trying to curry his favor because, paradoxically, that's exactly how you curry his favor. You talk nice to him, you behave politely, you try to negotiate with him, and he knows he's got you. And suddenly you don't matter anymore, you're no longer a valuable piece on his game board. Cat never blinks when conversing with him, she always plays herself off as approaching their talks from a position of strength, with threats present and implied, but never actually made. It makes her interesting to him, resulting in Kairos wanting to prolong the game if only to see more of her at play.

Neshemah, in his effort to counter the damage caused by Cat's argument, couched his own argument in the wrong tone. He was trying to reason with Kairos, to treat him as if he were worth at least arguing for. That was the mistake. If he'd bellowed and threatened and called Kairos a traitorous worm and swore he'd regret it, the Tyrant probably would have continued to play both sides. A game between two worthy players is a thing of beauty, you see? But instead he called out the lie and in that one sentence painted himself as "weak" in Kairos's mismatched eyes. Now the game's between a strong Cat and a weak Neshemah, in spite of the odds on the table, and that's all the blood in the water the Tyrant needs to go into a feeding frenzy.

I think REND is directed at Skein. Not only is Skein's SPOOL ability trying to pin him into one course of action (which the Tyrant cannot abide), it's costing Kairos something. Beyond that, it's Neshemah's most valuable piece on the field, and the biggest thumb in the eye of the Dead King he can manage in one action. Beyond even that, it's the best action he could use to hold it over the heroes, to ensure they don't kill him for his treachery. Plus, it's a big, arrogant monster just begging for its comeuppance, and I don't know if Kairos can resist making the kind of statement one-shotting the frickin' Skein would make...

[lord_khaine]

It was glorious indeed.

Spoiler: Treachery

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Also love the Saint, here. Faced with an undead legend and a legion of devils, her only complaint is that "this is going to take a while". I adore stories about heroes with that fearless-but-jaded mindset. Just a shame she's most certainly not a friend.

I blankly confess that i have found Saint awesomeness incarnate after she showed up and casually kicked the immortality and arrogance out of Winter Cat.
That was sorely needed. And i did love that her only reaction to finding out her opponent were partial immortal where to comment on how it made her swordsmanship sloppy.

Cat, Pilgrim, and Saint are definitely a different breed of champions. I think they're Black and Malicia taken to their logical extreme: they see that the status quo doesn't work and adjust themselves to nail down strategies that will work, even when they fly in the face of their supposed morals, because morals that achieve nothing are pointless at best. So Black can become obsessed with practical and fair governance and justice, while Tariq can justify killing entire towns in less than pretty ways to stop a villain. So Cat can oppose every Evil faction she comes across while suing for peace with the Good ones despite being a villain herself, while Saint can casually (and happily) chat about butchering the legitimate leadership of a Good faction.

Hmm.. im not certain Malicia is doing anything in that regard. She has so far only behaved like a typical manipulative villain.
I also dont think Saint fits into this catagory. Slaying the corupt leader of a good faction that noone else could touch is definitly a heroic story.
And he were definitly a monster at the stage when Saint fixed stuff. He had freaking people pulled off the street to fuel whatever the alchemist did.

The Bard, however... I don't think we know enough about the Bard to really understand what she is. She serves as Emissary of the Below one moment, then the voice of Wisdom for champions of Good the next, always with an earnestness that doesn't seem to be tied to the morality of the moment. Calling her a hero or villain seems to be missing the point. I think she's the Dungeon Master - the focal point of the story, of all stories, and arbiter of how they should flow. And to be honest, I still can't shake the gut feeling she's in some way Dread Empress Triumphant. I don't know how that would work, but I just keep circling back to that conclusion. It's just something about how they both transcend the story...

I cant really see how Triumpant transcend the story. And Bard is far, far older than her. She were still active by the time that the Dead King undervent his Apothis.
When time travel is needed to make a theory work, then its time to reexamine it :P

But yes i straight up said Bard wasnt a hero or a villain..
Calling her Dungeon Master could perhaps be fitting. She does seem tasked with making things flow. And with serving as envoy from both sides to the Named.
Of course the interesting bit seems to be its not willingly she serves.

Cat spelled it out in this chapter: Kairos dominates those who show weakness to him. That's why Cat went to such comical lengths to insult him in her letter - she wanted there to be no suggestion that she's trying to curry his favor because, paradoxically, that's exactly how you curry his favor. You talk nice to him, you behave politely, you try to negotiate with him, and he knows he's got you. And suddenly you don't matter anymore, you're no longer a valuable piece on his game board. Cat never blinks when conversing with him, she always plays herself off as approaching their talks from a position of strength, with threats present and implied, but never actually made. It makes her interesting to him, resulting in Kairos wanting to prolong the game if only to see more of her at play.

I did think the analysis of Kairos were excellent here. That is likely pretty much how he works.
But it also seems clear why Neshemah slipped up. Describing Kairos as the Joker were quite fitting.
And his way of thinking is just to foreign to the utterly pragmatic and logical Neshemah.