A Practical Guide to Evil

[tyckspoon]

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Indeed. I was being metaphorical. Cat won't cast "dispel magic" specifically, but Sve Noc either themselves or through Cat breaking the false dawn spell in half magically amounts to the same thing.

Possible worse, since sometimes, breaking a spell can result in nasty feedback (so like Slashing Dispel, then...!) Dunno if that is explictly the case here, I can't remember, but its common enough a trope it's plausible.

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Cat had a pretty nasty backlash when they broke her gate at the Battle of Camps - IIRC she was comatose for a couple of days after that one, and only really got away with it because she'd already broken the opposing army badly enough to force them to negotiations- and I know there's been several other instances where it has been either mentioned or actually shown that losing control of a spell or magical effect while you're still shaping its power can cause rebounds on the caster and/or significant collateral damage. As well as the chance to influence, corrupt, or otherwise target the caster by way of interacting with their spell, which IIRC has shown up in a couple of counter-scrying effects, and I want to say somebody remote-assassinated a few casters that way?

I think the risk of somebody breaking your spell or just you screwing up and having it go wild on you is why the Praesi casters consider themselves to be more skilled than everybody else - the Trismegistan tradition lets you get better results with less power, but a big part of the tradeoff is you have next to no room for error. If you're lucky, or you're attempting something relatively harmless, it just won't work. If you're trying to do something big and you mess up, you splatter yourself, your workroom, your castle, your estate, your city, your country's most valuable arable land..

[lord_khaine]

assorted comments, spoiler level -Current-

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..speaking of Saint I wonder what Rumena's orders are regarding her? Is he to make a best effort at actually killing her, while night holds and Night runs strong? Just delay her to keep her from simply Swording her way through everything before the rest of the show can play out? Try to get her bantering and monologuing to get more entries in the Tombmaker's Catechism of Sick Burns?

I doubt his order is more than "keep her distracted", simply because i suspect there isnt any other who has a living chance of getting in her way, and getting away with it.
At least, it would seem like a waste of time to get her talking. We have seen how few words Saint has to spare when something needs the Sword.
And the important bit here is, that she is an old hero. Heroes dont grow old if they are in the habit of making mistakes. Or repeating them.

The angels are nervous because they aren't the most powerful thing on the field for the first time in who knows how long. They can't brute force a win like they normally do.

They dont brute force victories to start with. They work though Heroes like the Lone Swordsman, White Knight, and Pilgrim.
Moving them into places where they can do the most.

The whole False Dawn thing is very obvious. But when has the Peregrine been subtle? He very much has depended on blatant brute force to carry the day pretty much whenever we see him do something. The closest thing we have to an actual scheme from him is trying to draw Cat into a sequence of three fights. Which she saw through the very same day.

Yeah no, thats not as such correct. Tariq is generally reactive. What he does is countering blatant display of brute force. Like when someone are dropping a lake on an army.
He isnt a sword, he is the shield.

Indeed. I was being metaphorical. Cat won't cast "dispel magic" specifically, but Sve Noc either themselves or through Cat breaking the false dawn spell in half magically amounts to the same thing.

Possible worse, since sometimes, breaking a spell can result in nasty feedback (so like Slashing Dispel, then...!) Dunno if that is explictly the case here, I can't remember, but its common enough a trope it's plausible.

Cat does seem to have something stewing in, what was it now, the Well?
It sounded like enough Night stored up to make a false Night to overlap the false dawn.

[Forum Explorer]

They dont brute force victories to start with. They work though Heroes like the Lone Swordsman, White Knight, and Pilgrim.
Moving them into places where they can do the most.



Yeah no, thats not as such correct. Tariq is generally reactive. What he does is countering blatant display of brute force. Like when someone are dropping a lake on an army.
He isnt a sword, he is the shield.



Cat does seem to have something stewing in, what was it now, the Well?
It sounded like enough Night stored up to make a false Night to overlap the false dawn.


[/SPOILER]

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Sure they do. From everything to forcibly trying to ressurect their agents to trying to bluntly convert Cat to repent. The forces of Light are never very subtle about their actions.

Sure. And shields are very obvious and blunt. He doesn't plan ahead a dozen steps to ensure that the heroes succeed and the villains plans fall apart via mechanations. He shows up blatantly resurrecting heroes with one hand and wielding a laser made from starlight with the other. Dude acts like Heaven's Sledgehammer, smashing apart villan's plans with a massive amount of force.

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Not completely true - sure, we haven't seen a generic 'cancel magic' spell, but there's been plenty of countermagic. Skilled mages have been undoing, redirecting, or subverting wards and bindings all over the place, the Callowan knights have anti-magic effects imbued in their armor, Saint is able to cut things that don't technically speaking exist, and I'm pretty sure if somebody used an aspect like Take, Destroy, or Yoink! (.. I mean Steal) on a spell it would look an awful lot like dispelling. (That'd make a fun What-If.. rather than going through Winter, Cat remains Squire until the god-summoning happens, and then Takes it.)

I would guess, based on other descriptions of different magical traditions in this world and the limitations/benefits each has, that you *can't* have a generic Dispel Magic effect. The means you would use to disrupt a Trismegistan spell aren't the same as what you would need to do to a practitioner of a different tradition.

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That's kinda my point. There is no generic 'deny magic'. Enemy magic needs to be unwoven and disrupted and it's always a different mechanism to do so. And so far, it's not something that can be done with just brute force. Dispelling magic has always been more about skill (or using goblinfire). Except maybe for the Peregine, but as established, the Heaven's cheat so the heroes don't have to become actually skilled.

The anti-magic armor of the knights is the closest thing we've seen to a generic deny magic.

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Indeed. I was being metaphorical. Cat won't cast "dispel magic" specifically, but Sve Noc either themselves or through Cat breaking the false dawn spell in half magically amounts to the same thing.

Possible worse, since sometimes, breaking a spell can result in nasty feedback (so like Slashing Dispel, then...!) Dunno if that is explictly the case here, I can't remember, but its common enough a trope it's plausible.

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Sure. But I guess my point is that dispelling magic is not easy. It's not a one step 'I prepared an anti-magic card, now all your buffs got wrecked.' It's more of a 'I pulled apart each defense you set up one by one until you're out in the open.'

[lord_khaine]

Sure they do. From everything to forcibly trying to ressurect their agents to trying to bluntly convert Cat to repent. The forces of Light are never very subtle about their actions.

Sure. And shields are very obvious and blunt. He doesn't plan ahead a dozen steps to ensure that the heroes succeed and the villains plans fall apart via mechanations. He shows up blatantly resurrecting heroes with one hand and wielding a laser made from starlight with the other. Dude acts like Heaven's Sledgehammer, smashing apart villan's plans with a massive amount of force.

If you put it like that even Malicia can be made to sound blunt "And she bluntly released the hidden horror to draw attention from herself"
Except its not the case. Your just ignoring just every example that would run counter to this bias.
Like how Black were taken down by being several steps ahead. Or how Tariq several times have put Cat on a story path she had to wriggle out of.

Yes he tries to wield his power to its fullest.
But should we call Cat blunt because she solves her problems by dropping lakes?
How is that any different from the argumentation made against the choir and Tariq?

Spoiler level -current-

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Awesome chapter.
So its revealed that the light show and the night attack wasnt even meant to win the battle.
It was there to provoke Cat into a draw with Tariq.
Something she brilliantly countered by surrendering, giving him a victory instead.

Else, also cool to get a little more information on Saints aspects.
I especially like Decree. Its a surprisingly effective counter to a lot BS magic tricks, like turning air to acid

[Aotrs Commander]

Spoiler: Book5, Interlude:Death They Cannot Steal

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Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


No, no, Cat, that is much better than breaking his magic! This is why you are so perilously close to toppling Jubilee!

Make him go through all the rigamarole of using his big, shiny trump card and then basiclly blue balling him with a surrender that we know won't even GAIN him anything, and with no more resources than an effecticely teleporting dude and a piece of paper!

Priceless.



Rumena is best drow.

Pity it didn't kill Arse of Arses, but we can't always get what we want, can we? Next time, maybe.

[McNum]

Spoiler: Book5, Interlude:Death They Cannot Steal

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Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


No, no, Cat, that is much better than breaking his magic! This is why you are so perilously close to toppling Jubilee!

Make him go through all the rigamarole of using his big, shiny trump card and then basiclly blue balling him with a surrender that we know won't even GAIN him anything, and with no more resources than an effecticely teleporting dude and a piece of paper!

Priceless.



Rumena is best drow.

Pity it didn't kill Arse of Arses, but we can't always get what we want, can we? Next time, maybe.

Spoiler: Death They Cannot Steal

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I like how it puts the Pilgrim in an unwinnable victory. And no that's apparently not a contradiction when it comes to dealing with Catherine Foundling.

If he accepts, he breaks the Rule of Three and loses one of the few possible ways to stop The Black Queen.
If he declines, the Choir of Mercy is likely going to get really angry at him, which will open him up to all kinds of fallen Hero stories.

The one thing he wants, a draw, has effectively been denied to him.

Isn't it odd how Catherine technically losing sort of feels more like a victory here? And yes, waiting until he's played his big trump card and only then surrendering is just perfect. To anyone else, it simply looks like she doesn't have a counter, and decided to give up. It's a plausible surrender, which makes it all the harder to deny.

I wonder what he'll pick. Give up his chance of the Rule of Three, or deny mercy when freely offered as an agent of the Choir of Mercy?

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Death They Cannot Steal

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I like how it puts the Pilgrim in an unwinnable victory. And no that's apparently not a contradiction when it comes to dealing with Catherine Foundling.

If he accepts, he breaks the Rule of Three and loses one of the few possible ways to stop The Black Queen.
If he declines, the Choir of Mercy is likely going to get really angry at him, which will open him up to all kinds of fallen Hero stories.

The one thing he wants, a draw, has effectively been denied to him.

Isn't it odd how Catherine technically losing sort of feels more like a victory here? And yes, waiting until he's played his big trump card and only then surrendering is just perfect. To anyone else, it simply looks like she doesn't have a counter, and decided to give up. It's a plausible surrender, which makes it all the harder to deny.

I wonder what he'll pick. Give up his chance of the Rule of Three, or deny mercy when freely offered as an agent of the Choir of Mercy?

Spoiler: Death They Cannot Steal

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It is a thing of beauty, capped with the specific wording of the letters as we know them. I think this is the gamble of the three, and the one declaring our ex-Thief heir the knife. She hands the crown to Viv before walking out and then she has nothing to surrender besides her own broken body, while all the anti-Villain sentiment falls apart as the new queen is a former Hero rather than a former Villain. Everything the Pilgrim wants, he doesn't get with this victory. And the only thing Cat loses is the crown, something she never intended to keep. Hopefully Robber survives this war just so he can comment on it later. Nobody gambles like the Black Queen. Even when she folds she walks away with the whole pot.

Unsure of how the Well will play into things. Akua's timeline suggests it'll still be weeks before it's ready and therefore may well be a long game gambit for the Dead King, and Cat's surrender all but renders it superfluous here, though Rumena will almost certainly die if Shine isn't countered. Only thing that really comes to mind is the old "the brighter the light, the darker the shadows" saying giving the drow some very limited shelter if they were expecting it (as Cat clearly was). I do hope the Lord of Smack Talk survives this encounter, as it's wonderful to envision this completely deadpan voice verbally own people in their own languages.

[tyckspoon]

Spoiler: Death They Cannot Steal

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It is a thing of beauty, capped with the specific wording of the letters as we know them. I think this is the gamble of the three, and the one declaring our ex-Thief heir the knife. She hands the crown to Viv before walking out and then she has nothing to surrender besides her own broken body, while all the anti-Villain sentiment falls apart as the new queen is a former Hero rather than a former Villain. Everything the Pilgrim wants, he doesn't get with this victory. And the only thing Cat loses is the crown, something she never intended to keep. Hopefully Robber survives this war just so he can comment on it later. Nobody gambles like the Black Queen. Even when she folds she walks away with the whole pot.

Spoiler: Cat's Letters

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I think this cements the letter to Kairos as the lie, and I suspect it's going to be that best kind of lie: One that is entirely made of the truth. She will support whatever Kairos asks for at the eventual peace conference, no reservations.. but by the time that happens her support simply won't be worth much. Right now the weight of that promise is based on her being the Black Queen, First Under Night, commander of the political and military weight of Callow as well as the narrative weight accrued to her. She's a pretty big hand on the scales, right now. But if Pilgrim accepts the surrender here and she abdicates the throne to Viv, well.. she'll still be First Under Night, and she'll still have the Drow and Wild Hunt following her. It's better than nothing, she's still somebody to consider. But she and the armies will be bound by whatever promises Pilgrim extracts as terms of surrender. She won't be the political or military leader of Callow any more. I think, should that come to pass, she won't even have an official voice at the negotiations, no more than anybody is actually required to listen to Saint's opinions. Should be quite entertaining to Kairos to find he has the full support of somebody who no longer matters in that arena.

[Forum Explorer]

If you put it like that even Malicia can be made to sound blunt "And she bluntly released the hidden horror to draw attention from herself"
Except its not the case. Your just ignoring just every example that would run counter to this bias.
Like how Black were taken down by being several steps ahead. Or how Tariq several times have put Cat on a story path she had to wriggle out of.

Yes he tries to wield his power to its fullest.
But should we call Cat blunt because she solves her problems by dropping lakes?
How is that any different from the argumentation made against the choir and Tariq?

Spoiler level -current-

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Awesome chapter.
So its revealed that the light show and the night attack wasnt even meant to win the battle.
It was there to provoke Cat into a draw with Tariq.
Something she brilliantly countered by surrendering, giving him a victory instead.

Else, also cool to get a little more information on Saints aspects.
I especially like Decree. Its a surprisingly effective counter to a lot BS magic tricks, like turning air to acid

Not at all. Malicia released the Hidden Horror, but she avoided Cat's attempts to stop her from doing so not by brute force but by pretending to have been Cat's servant the whole time. Something that Cat still hasn't figured out.

She arranged for Akua to build her a super weapon, defeated the True Bloods, and almost destroyed Procur via a civil war without direct force being used at all. It was all catspaws, manipulation, and letting people do what they do naturally. Even when people know what she did, they still can't blame her publicly.

She effectively allowed 100 000 thousands Callowans to be murdered, and she got away with it. The public has no idea she was partially responsible, with only Cat and Black's inner circle knowing the truth of the matter.


Black is the one time you could argue that Taric was being subtle, but in the end, he really wasn't. He wasn't multiple steps ahead, he was one step ahead. He knew where Black was, so he unleashed a plague on that village to kill everyone. It's pure brute force, with no elegance to it at all.

And yeah, he keeps trying to lock Cat into story paths that could kill her, but every time Cat sees what he's doing almost immediately which is why she can wiggle out of them. Take this latest instance.

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He launched a night attack against the Drow. And pretty much everyone on Cat's side knew he'd be pulling some trump card out, with Cat instantly knowing what he was trying to accomplish with it.

So again, not very subtle at all. He tries, I suppose but fails.


And no, Cat isn't very subtle either. She has her moments, but typically her plans are 'murder the problem until it stops being a problem.' And yeah, dropping a lake on an enemy army is almost the definition of brute force. It's only in this latest book that she started to move away from being a blunt force.

[tyckspoon]

Unrelated to much of anything, the glimpse into Saint of Sword's philosophy from the latest chapter makes me think she wandered in from Kill Six Billion Demons. Just another idiot adherent of the blade that completely failed to understand Meti and Maya's lessons.. (Cat, on the other hand, would probably be completely behind the whole 'learning to fight is dumb, go build a house. It'll be more useful' idea. She's just convinced she can't give up fighting because of what probably seem like completely sensible reasons.)

[druid91]

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Interestingly enough, the other thing that's going on here is that if the last conflicts weren't a rule of three.... that means this surrender could be the start of one. A victory for the Grey Pilgrim, so assuming he tries to throw his weight around and brings on another conflict shortly afterwards... by for example demanding she be executed or the drow be killed. Then she can fight again and get that Draw he was after. Only this time the final victory would be hers rather than his.

Meaning of course, GP isn't going to be able to go for the throat in discussions afterwards.

[lord_khaine]

Not at all. Malicia released the Hidden Horror, but she avoided Cat's attempts to stop her from doing so not by brute force but by pretending to have been Cat's servant the whole time. Something that Cat still hasn't figured out.

She arranged for Akua to build her a super weapon, defeated the True Bloods, and almost destroyed Procur via a civil war without direct force being used at all. It was all catspaws, manipulation, and letting people do what they do naturally. Even when people know what she did, they still can't blame her publicly.

She effectively allowed 100 000 thousands Callowans to be murdered, and she got away with it. The public has no idea she was partially responsible, with only Cat and Black's inner circle knowing the truth of the matter.


Black is the one time you could argue that Taric was being subtle, but in the end, he really wasn't. He wasn't multiple steps ahead, he was one step ahead. He knew where Black was, so he unleashed a plague on that village to kill everyone. It's pure brute force, with no elegance to it at all.

And yeah, he keeps trying to lock Cat into story paths that could kill her, but every time Cat sees what he's doing almost immediately which is why she can wiggle out of them. Take this latest instance.

Well yes, thank you for demonstrating how its extremely easy to just call something brute force and then act like the matter is settled. Even when it isnt.
Like when Malicia just brute-forced a bribe though with no elegance, that allowed her the position of Cat's servant.

And no, Black isnt the one time Tariq were subtle. There isnt any cases where thats not the case.
Just cases where the contex of the entire situation is being overlooked.
Like.. Tariq freakingl predicted where the Black Knight was passing though, got it affected with a slow acting disease, and then caught Black in a position where it would be impossible to escape from.

So again, not very subtle at all. He tries, I suppose but fails.

Here we have a many layered plan whose actual purpose were to manipulate Cat into a draw. Something i will point out, that noone here managed to predict.
And yet the verdict remains the same? Brute force.

It kinda seems like there is an extreme degree of bias against Tariq.
And i doubt its going to be worth debating further. It does sound like no matter what he does, then the verdict would be the same.

Unrelated to much of anything, the glimpse into Saint of Sword's philosophy from the latest chapter makes me think she wandered in from Kill Six Billion Demons. Just another idiot adherent of the blade that completely failed to understand Meti and Maya's lessons.. (Cat, on the other hand, would probably be completely behind the whole 'learning to fight is dumb, go build a house. It'll be more useful' idea. She's just convinced she can't give up fighting because of what probably seem like completely sensible reasons.)

Yeah no.. im pretty certain that the woman who made her body into a SWORD does not need lessons on the subject from anyone else....

Though it kinda sounds like you failed to catch the actual meaning of those lessons. How high do you think Meti's kill count is?
Someone who killed.. what was it 3000 men in a single battle is hardly qualified to say fighting is dumb.

But to quote Meti herself
"There is only one way to be a pure master of sword law. This is to allow your body to become absolutely soaked with death.

Death is always in the body at all times, but happier people are able to let it live only in their skin, or on the surface of their eyelids. They may easily wash it off from time to time and carry on with their lives.

When I tell my students to shave their heads, partly it is so they cannot rid themselves of death so easily. Those who do not bathe in death regularly will forget it is there, and that is a very stupid thing to do when swords are involved."

Then its very clear that what she actually want is to strip away the foolish illusions from ignorant kids whose head is full of glory.

And surprise! i think its pretty clear Saint dont have any such illusions.
Its also just naive to think Saint lives in a world where she could just hang up her sword and build an inn.
What do you think the chain of hunger or the hidden horror will say to that?
Pack up and go home?

Interestingly enough, the other thing that's going on here is that if the last conflicts weren't a rule of three.... that means this surrender could be the start of one. A victory for the Grey Pilgrim, so assuming he tries to throw his weight around and brings on another conflict shortly afterwards... by for example demanding she be executed or the drow be killed. Then she can fight again and get that Draw he was after. Only this time the final victory would be hers rather than his.

Actually this does kinda shows Pilgrim isnt directly locked into a draw if they fight again soon. Or else Cat would have been forced into a draw now.
Its likely only the 3rd fight who actually has any story momentum.
It can just as easily be that the victory/defeat kinda canceal each other out

[Calemyr]

Actually this does kinda shows Pilgrim isnt directly locked into a draw if they fight again soon. Or else Cat would have been forced into a draw now.
Its likely only the 3rd fight who actually has any story momentum.
It can just as easily be that the victory/defeat kinda canceal each other out

The rule of three is explicitly "Villain Wins -> Draw -> Hero Wins", with the Hero's win usually being decidedly final. Once that draw hits, the outcome is set and there really is no escape. Cat only managed to "survive" it once so far by zombifying herself so her loss proved fatal but not final. The rule of three was completed, Cat died, but she was still on the field and able to kill William and force the angels to resurrect her. "Villain Wins -> Hero Wins" doesn't carry any Story weight behind it, so it can't be used as a narrative finishing blow.

Tariq himself point out that his oath-breaking has already screwed him over, narratively speaking, by putting a finger or two on the scale, slanting things in Cat's favor. He notes that this in most cases would be little more than an annoyance, that the "fair play penalty", as it were, wouldn't be enough on its own. Against Cat, however, it's a potentially lethal factor in the struggle since Tariq couldn't seal the deal in the first place. That puts Tariq in a bad position right now: he either has to give up his shot at a sure kill, or play under a double penalty by rejecting the surrender. Even ignoring the fact that she's still carrying two Trumps and he's shattered from expending his own, that growing bias could turn the draw he's angling for into a second defeat, which would be worse than a wash.

What I find interesting about the whole thing is that Cat's Namelessness isn't being considered. In fact, he's still considering her to be the Moonless Queen, still seeing her as a proto-Dead King. I can understand it, since the troll birds aren't letting him use his cheat Behold aspect, but it's still pulling at my attention.

Rereading the last segment of the chapter, though, was priceless. Tariq winds himself up, rips himself pretty much to shreds to Shine, then basks in the belief that Cat has no option but to use a trump of her own (the Well, presumably, but he doesn't know what it'd be exactly), which will result in an inevitable draw and thus her ultimate demise.

Game, Set, Ma-
Summer Fae: Letter for you, sir.
...
...
... Damn.

[lord_khaine]

The rule of three is explicitly "Villain Wins -> Draw -> Hero Wins", with the Hero's win usually being decidedly final. Once that draw hits, the outcome is set and there really is no escape. Cat only managed to "survive" it once so far by zombifying herself so her loss proved fatal but not final. The rule of three was completed, Cat died, but she was still on the field and able to kill William and force the angels to resurrect her. "Villain Wins -> Hero Wins" doesn't carry any Story weight behind it, so it can't be used as a narrative finishing blow.

Well.. then this just does confirm that Tariq isnt locked down in any way.. just as i said....

Tariq himself point out that his oath-breaking has already screwed him over, narratively speaking, by putting a finger or two on the scale, slanting things in Cat's favor. He notes that this in most cases would be little more than an annoyance, that the "fair play penalty", as it were, wouldn't be enough on its own. Against Cat, however, it's a potentially lethal factor in the struggle since Tariq couldn't seal the deal in the first place. That puts Tariq in a bad position right now: he either has to give up his shot at a sure kill, or play under a double penalty by rejecting the surrender. Even ignoring the fact that she's still carrying two Trumps and he's shattered from expending his own, that growing bias could turn the draw he's angling for into a second defeat, which would be worse than a wash.

So far we dont have anything to support that not accepting the surrender would give Tariq another penalty though.
And yes the attempt to force a draw would avoided skillfully. But Gray would not be Above's cleaner if he could not turn a situation to his advantage.
At the very least he can get Cat tied down with oaths or promises.

What I find interesting about the whole thing is that Cat's Namelessness isn't being considered. In fact, he's still considering her to be the Moonless Queen, still seeing her as a proto-Dead King. I can understand it, since the troll birds aren't letting him use his Behold aspect, but it's still pulling at my attention.

I dont think Below has anything to come after when it comes to cheating aspecs cough*Take*cough..
But that aside, then it is a little hilarous that it actually turns around to bit Cat in the ass. Pilgrim not being able to see how she is mortal keeps her at disaster level Omega as far as he knows.
While Cat would -love- being considderet a lesser evil, beneath Praes, The Chain of Hunger, and The Dead King in importance.

[Calemyr]

Well.. then this just does confirm that Tariq isnt locked down in any way.. just as i said....

I think you've got it a little backwards: Tariq was counting on the rule of three to kill Cat for him. It's a major gambit in his toolbox, a certain kill move that takes a lot of work and luck to set up, but once the draw is done, there is no escape. Tariq's lost all his other bids to neutralize Cat - he abandoned his incarceration (so the redemption arc is lost), he broke oaths (resulting in a narrative bias in her favor), and every other trick he's tried failed to even get that far. He needs the rule of three to kill her and was desperate enough for it that he used Shine to push the draw. Then she surrenders.

So far we dont have anything to support that not accepting the surrender would give Tariq another penalty though.
And yes the attempt to force a draw would avoided skillfully. But Gray would not be Above's cleaner if he could not turn a situation to his advantage.
At the very least he can get Cat tied down with oaths or promises.

The fact that Oathbreaking was enough to introduce a bias in their game is pretty solid evidence, in my book. Heroes are expected to act like Heroes, to live up to their Role. Actively rejecting an offer to end the fight without further bloodshed is exactly the kind of behavior that can bite Tariq in his grey-clad ass.

Cat suffered something very similar to this early on, after the first fight with William. Sparing him was outside her Role and it strained (all but broke) her ties with her Name until she faced off with Akua on the Blessed Isle. Short version: you have to play your part if you want to wield the Story as a weapon.

Now, the interesting catch here is that I strongly suspect that Mercy will be against accepting the surrender, putting him in an even tighter corner.

Remember that this has happened to him before, when avenging his sister against the will of the choir. He lost a lot of his power for a time because of it. His entire game with Cat is, by his own admission, his own doing without Ophanim mandate. He's at significantly more risk right now than he's used to.

Tariq isn't out of the game, of course. He's going to have at least a few more gambits to play and he'll remain a threat for some time, but this is most decidedly not a high point in his career.

I dont think Below has anything to come after when it comes to cheating aspecs cough*Take*cough..
But that aside, then it is a little hilarous that it actually turns around to bit Cat in the ass. Pilgrim not being able to see how she is mortal keeps her at disaster level Omega as far as he knows.
While Cat would -love- being considderet a lesser evil, beneath Praes, The Chain of Hunger, and The Dead King in importance.

Below has no problem with cheating, naturally. If you have the power, you have the right to use it. Period.

As for the irony, wholly agreed. Cat is operating on the false assumption that Tariq is seeing her evolution as the birth of an even greater threat, moving from Neshema 2.0 to Triumphant 2.0. Tariq is, on the other hand, assuming that she's still Neshema 2.0 but now even scarier because she's learned the value of caution and patience. We've seen how Tariq's assumption has messed with events (pinning him into an unwinnable position he can't afford to reconsider).

I do wonder if the surrender is going to play to Tariq's blindness by asking the crows to stop abjuring her after Tariq has committed to so much on a false assumption, all the sins and extremes he's gone to without any real justification. It may not be a rule of three scenario, but that could be a narrative killing blow in itself.

After all, I really don't think Tariq is the true antagonist, any more than Akua and William were. The true antagonist is, always and only, the Bard. Everything else is only so many sideshows along the path.

[halfeye]

What I don't understand is how Tariq thinks that Catherine might be a key to destroying the world. Worlds are big things.

[tyckspoon]

I dont think Below has anything to come after when it comes to cheating aspecs cough*Take*cough..
But that aside, then it is a little hilarous that it actually turns around to bit Cat in the ass. Pilgrim not being able to see how she is mortal keeps her at disaster level Omega as far as he knows.
While Cat would -love- being considderet a lesser evil, beneath Praes, The Chain of Hunger, and The Dead King in importance.

Every time I think about Cat's previous Aspects I'm a bit disappointed the whole Winter thing happened, because I think her last aspect should have been Remake. Not just for the rhyming, although it helps - it would have neatly encapsulated her whole method of operating. Take what your opponents have that is useful, Break it to deny it to them if you can't use it or they won't yield it, Remake it into something more suited to your needs after the dust has settled. (Although the potential combinations here might have been even harder to write a satisfying story about, or at least triggered endless reader complaints/speculations about what should have happened.. Rise doesn't bring you back strong enough, wears out too fast, has negative complications because you're using a Heroic, Light-based power as a Villain? REMAKE it as part of your own powers. Also, hey, bonus, now your slot for Taking something is open again! Go absorb everything that seems interesting!)

[Calemyr]

What I don't understand is how Tariq thinks that Catherine might be a key to destroying the world. Worlds are big things.

Black set the stage pretty early on that one: nobody, not even Triumphant herself, is a world-class threat. The only three threats we have that might potentially have that qualify are the Gnomes, the Dwarves (maybe), and the Bard.

If Tariq is counting Cat as a world-class threat, he's not thinking about globes, he's thinking about his world, his sphere of experience. This continent. Which is in keeping with the threat he compares her to in the Dead King, who isn't very interested in the greater world as long as his domain is alright. Sure, he's able to (and happy to) wreck his neighbors when given the opportunity, but his Story-fu is such that he only acts when he's still narratively invincible (i.e. roused to action by another Evil force), as a Sealed Evil in a Can may only, at best, be resealed and never destroyed. On a long enough timeline, perhaps, the Dead King or the Moonless Queen could grow to be a world-class threat, and given their immortality, that could be considered just short of inevitability. It remains, however, just a potential far down the line.

The Bard, on the other hand, could justifiably consider Cat a world-class threat. She's still not the kind of threat that will destroy the firmament of the world, at least not the physical firmament. What she threatens is the narrative foundation of the world, the underpinnings of how the world works. If Cat gets her way and this treaty gets accepted by the continent, she will have cut the legs off of Heroes and Villains alike. She will have, in effect, neutered the Story with a rusty spoon. Creating a continent-shaped dead zone in the narrative that can only grow over time. She's not an existential threat, but a threat to the only thing the Bard holds dear. Beyond cheap booze and a quick tumble, anyway.

[Rynjin]

What I don't understand is how Tariq thinks that Catherine might be a key to destroying the world. Worlds are big things.

He says she's a threat to Calernia, not the world.

[lord_khaine]

I think you've got it a little backwards: Tariq was counting on the rule of three to kill Cat for him. It's a major gambit in his toolbox, a certain kill move that takes a lot of work and luck to set up, but once the draw is done, there is no escape. Tariq's lost all his other bids to neutralize Cat - he abandoned his incarceration (so the redemption arc is lost), he broke oaths (resulting in a narrative bias in her favor), and every other trick he's tried failed to even get that far. He needs the rule of three to kill her and was desperate enough for it that he used Shine to push the draw. Then she surrenders.

No i dont have anything backward. Its just because your responding to the end of a longer conversation. Your losing a lot of contex.
But also, no, we dont have anything pointing to him wanting to kill her. At least Cat's theory were that he wanted the leverage of being able to do so.

The fact that Oathbreaking was enough to introduce a bias in their game is pretty solid evidence, in my book. Heroes are expected to act like Heroes, to live up to their Role. Actively rejecting an offer to end the fight without further bloodshed is exactly the kind of behavior that can bite Tariq in his grey-clad ass.

Cat suffered something very similar to this early on, after the first fight with William. Sparing him was outside her Role and it strained (all but broke) her ties with her Name until she faced off with Akua on the Blessed Isle. Short version: you have to play your part if you want to wield the Story as a weapon.

Now, the interesting catch here is that I strongly suspect that Mercy will be against accepting the surrender, putting him in an even tighter corner.

Remember that this has happened to him before, when avenging his sister against the will of the choir. He lost a lot of his power for a time because of it. His entire game with Cat is, by his own admission, his own doing without Ophanim mandate. He's at significantly more risk right now than he's used to.

Tariq isn't out of the game, of course. He's going to have at least a few more gambits to play and he'll remain a threat for some time, but this is most decidedly not a high point in his career.

Hmm.. now this is 2 different things in play though. When he broke her oath to her, he commented on it bringing a minor lack of balance in the story between them that favored her, for a lack of better terms.
I dont think refusing a surrender would do something like that. He hasnt sworn any oaths to that regard.

But yes, we have seen it several times.. that heroes or villains that dont fit in with their role grow weaker.
That is a different mechanic, but i could see it affecting Tariq if he refused to show someone mercy.
And thats also why i seriously doubt he would refuse a surrender.

Below has no problem with cheating, naturally. If you have the power, you have the right to use it. Period.

As for the irony, wholly agreed. Cat is operating on the false assumption that Tariq is seeing her evolution as the birth of an even greater threat, moving from Neshema 2.0 to Triumphant 2.0. Tariq is, on the other hand, assuming that she's still Neshema 2.0 but now even scarier because she's learned the value of caution and patience. We've seen how Tariq's assumption has messed with events (pinning him into an unwinnable position he can't afford to reconsider).

I do wonder if the surrender is going to play to Tariq's blindness by asking the crows to stop abjuring her after Tariq has committed to so much on a false assumption, all the sins and extremes he's gone to without any real justification. It may not be a rule of three scenario, but that could be a narrative killing blow in itself.

After all, I really don't think Tariq is the true antagonist, any more than Akua and William were. The true antagonist is, always and only, the Bard. Everything else is only so many sideshows along the path.

I meant just as much in regard to the sort of aspects heroes and villains have.
As far as i can see, both has their own share of hax powers. But i seriously think that TAKE is amoung the top broken ones.

Else.. im quite certain that moving from Neshema to Triumpant is a serious downgrade.. after all.. who of those 2 are still around to bring fresh nightmares to an entire country?
My impression where that Cat just though Pilgrim could not afford to have her moving around causing havok.

And as for his struggle with the recently arrived Cat. I dont really think he has commited any sins yet in his dealings with her.
The Legion of Doom cant be allowed to go free without punishment after pillaging across Proccer. If it does it will lead to open rebellion and civil war in a country thats fighting the Dead King.
Cat insists on sheltering them, and she with her Drow does pack the amount of weight that demands Tariq's full attention to counter.

Though after the exchange with The Tyrant, then i think it became clear that the Bard is as much, if not more, of a slave to the story than anyone else.

The Bard, on the other hand, could justifiably consider Cat a world-class threat. She's still not the kind of threat that will destroy the firmament of the world, at least not the physical firmament. What she threatens is the narrative foundation of the world, the underpinnings of how the world works. If Cat gets her way and this treaty gets accepted by the continent, she will have cut the legs off of Heroes and Villains alike. She will have, in effect, neutered the Story with a rusty spoon. Creating a continent-shaped dead zone in the narrative that can only grow over time. She's not an existential threat, but a threat to the only thing the Bard holds dear. Beyond cheap booze and a quick tumble, anyway.

Why do you think Bard would care in any way for Cat's treaty? Or for that matter that it can do anything to the story?
Can you use the treaty to stop The Tyrant from animating a thousand zombies and sending them down to ruin Callow's fishing industry?
Or would you indeed need a hero.. or heroic person.. to stop them?

Heroes dont rule to start with. And Villains break the rules. The treaty might cut down a bit on the actual wars.
But that would not affect the story. Just reduce the number of regular humans caught up in it.

And as earlier commented, then i dont think Bard holds the story dear as such.
I suspect she were the first person to endanger it.. and her punishment were to become its guardian.

[Forum Explorer]

The rule of three is explicitly "Villain Wins -> Draw -> Hero Wins", with the Hero's win usually being decidedly final. Once that draw hits, the outcome is set and there really is no escape. Cat only managed to "survive" it once so far by zombifying herself so her loss proved fatal but not final. The rule of three was completed, Cat died, but she was still on the field and able to kill William and force the angels to resurrect her. "Villain Wins -> Hero Wins" doesn't carry any Story weight behind it, so it can't be used as a narrative finishing blow.

.

That's not true. In Book 1 Akua got into the rule of three against Cat as well. I'm not sure if it can go Hero win -> Draw -> Villain Wins, but at the least it can work with both parties being villains.

Well yes, thank you for demonstrating how its extremely easy to just call something brute force and then act like the matter is settled. Even when it isnt.
Like when Malicia just brute-forced a bribe though with no elegance, that allowed her the position of Cat's servant.

And no, Black isnt the one time Tariq were subtle. There isnt any cases where thats not the case.
Just cases where the contex of the entire situation is being overlooked.
Like.. Tariq freakingl predicted where the Black Knight was passing though, got it affected with a slow acting disease, and then caught Black in a position where it would be impossible to escape from.



Here we have a many layered plan whose actual purpose were to manipulate Cat into a draw. Something i will point out, that noone here managed to predict.
And yet the verdict remains the same? Brute force.

It kinda seems like there is an extreme degree of bias against Tariq.
And i doubt its going to be worth debating further. It does sound like no matter what he does, then the verdict would be the same.

She didn't offer any sort of bribe. If anything, the Dead King offered her one in letting Malicia set up multiple contingencies ahead of time.

He didn't predict where Black was, he was told. And then he hit the entire village with a bio-weapon

On the contrary, we all predicted what Taric would do, we just all missed his intent in it. And the reason we missed the intent is because we assumed in a showdown of raw power at that moment, that Cat would win, not just score a draw. Kinda like how Taric won when he disrupted Cat's portal. Regardless, Cat completely saw through Taric's plot, like she has with all of his plots.


But you are right that there doesn't seem to be any point in this conversation. You seem to have a different definition of brute force then I do. Or a different view point on the heroes, considering our disagreements about the heroes in the past.

[The Glyphstone]

On a completely different note - we have three notes, and have seen two of them delivered. Which do people think is the bet, which is the knife, and which is the lie?

[Forum Explorer]

On a completely different note - we have three notes, and have seen two of them delivered. Which do people think is the bet, which is the knife, and which is the lie?

Spoiler: Volume 5

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I'm guessing the surrender is the lie, Vivi being made heir is the knife, and the letter to the tyrant is the bet.

[Calemyr]

That was a good chapter. I'm still growing ever weary of this playing about, but I enjoyed every part of this chapter.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm hoping this arc pics up. I thought the last book was great, tremendous character development and great set pieces. The attempt to bargain with the Dead King was bad IMO, this isn't stellar but it has gone okay. Vivien and Hakram's mini-arc was the best written section of the series, I could really feel the tension and underlying currents.

[tyckspoon]

On a completely different note - we have three notes, and have seen two of them delivered. Which do people think is the bet, which is the knife, and which is the lie?

Spoiler

Show

Knife to Pilgrim - he even referred to it as such in his monologuing in this last chapter - betting on Viv as the person who will lead Callow in the direction Cat wants to see it go, lying to Kairos. Pilgrim and Kairos may be turned around, but I have trouble seeing how designating Vivienne as heir is anything other than the bet.

Pilgrim doesn't think anybody other than Cat could unleash the well and try to counter his star. Does he not know Akua is around? Or suspect that any of the sufficiently Mighty could probably control the activation of it? Or is it just that he thinks he has sufficient weight on this battlefield and story that nobody except his direct counterpart/rival in the setup could contest it? He's probably right, at that - if anybody besides Cat attempted a head-on counter of his Shine the Heavens would probably throw their weight in on it to reinforce it.. unless, as he said, he rejected the surrender, broke his own justification for doing it, and rendered it vulnerable thereby as he would no longer have the full weight of his role and story supporting it. Then somebody else could probably have used the well and countered it, or used it for some other Night miracle that wouldn't be sufficiently suppressed by Shine any more.

[druid91]

Spoiler

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The apointment of Viv as the Heir is the bet, The surrender to Tariq is the lie, and Kairos is the Knife.

[Lord Raziere]

I have to post, because I just a read passage because it makes me a little angry:

The House of Light said men could be worse than devils, for devils were driven to Evil by their nature and not by choice. That it was greater sin to turn away from the light than be born of the dark. Choice, that was the word the priests exalted above all others. That men had the right to make decisions granted by the Gods and that what they did with this right defined who they were. For the Children of the Heavens sin is in action, not in birth. I didn’t believe that, not really. Malicia was a monster not because she’d fed a civil war that lasted decades and killed dozens of thousands, but because she was someone who had it in her to make that decision. Her sin, if I was to insist on such a word, was that she was a woman with that capacity. Even if she’d become a cloistered sister in southern Callow and never hurt a fly until she died, she would still have that bleak thing within her. Evil was not an act so much as it was a state of mind, a way of thinking I had been raised to despise even against the best efforts of the Imperial orphanages.

Just.....just...No. Wrong. This is bad. This is just not correct. some undefinable "bleak thing" is no excuse or explanation. If you have a state of mind, its because you chose to have that state of mind and if Malicia was a cloistered sister who never hurt a fly, that means she never was TAUGHT that state of mind and never would get that "bleak thing" in the first place. Evil is evil. You make yourself what you are through your choices. This is just Catherine telling herself that her current state was inevitable because of a "bleak thing" and therefore she doesn't have to be responsible for her actions because of some vague quality that someone else nurtured and manipulated her into acquiring and cultivating.

If its an attempt by the author to say that Catherine's a psychopath, its a bad one, and doesn't even cover the fact that you don't have to be psychopathic or sociopathic to do evil things. any mindset can lead to evil if applied wrong, without care, and even then I find it doubtful that she is truly a sociopath, as she shows too many qualities that go against that, but she definitely as sociopathic tendencies, which isn't the same thing as being one. maybe some narcissistic ones as her morality tends to be very self-centered on her concerns.

Spoiler: other thoughts

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Heh. Agreed. What I will say is that a lot of it comes from the difference between protagonist and hero. It's easy to see the villain as a monster when all you see of them is the snarling butcher stalking the battlefield. When a story is set that you see that villain drinking and bantering with their friends and struggling to achieve something beyond bloodshed for the lulz, you are forced to consider them as people. When you show nothing of the heroes but their arrogance and their unwavering destructive crusade against their enemy, you reduce them to monsters. We are never the bad guy, it is always them, and it's up to the storyteller to inform us who is who. At least, that's what I tend to take from the tale.

Eh. To me, if Catherine is truly Right and Lone Swordsman is Truly Wrong, then all thats happened is a mislabeling of sides. If Catherine is Truly Wrong and Lone Swordsman is Truly Right, then the story is doing nothing but a cheap trick of social perception. Evil is evil and Good is good, "the villain was good all along and did the right thing in her evilness" is not a sentence that parses or make sense. It is not addressing whether the Cosmic Good morality of the Angels is in the right and catherine is just a tragedy in the making or whether the Cosmic morality is in the wrong and Catherine is somehow creating a terrestrial morality from mixing heroic and evil traits that add up to something more workable. Time will tell which one is true.

on book 3 now, hehehe, Catherine got what she wanted and thats the most dangerous thing in the world. what will she do now?

aaah so thats the White Knights deal, hes a Two-Face, "my viewpoint is limited and unfair, I can only follow a higher code to do good" type, much like Szeth from Stormlight Archive, but probably in a bad way. shame, I like the Szeth interpretation of that kind of person better. but he seems competent! unlike Lone Swordsman or Exiled Prince who were both the narrative equivalents of mustache-twirlers. Hopefully he doesn't end up being revealed to be stupid or a jerk like them. Or having his coin flip being interrupted just to be a snarky thing about coin flip guys being stupid.

Ah, I see Malicia. All for bettering the lives until its Procer thats uniting and getting better, is it? Knew they show their evil colors. Take away the cackling and theatrics and evil is still evil and wrong, sure kill that general and let Procer keep fighting, that will solve so much. Malicia is just doing this save Praesi hides, screw her.

“Maybe that was how the Gods Below got you, I thought. They made you love people who could do horrible things just enough that you’d forgive them for it.” *laughter* see? This is why I keep emphasizing that evil is evil, and that your no hero, Catherine. They may be people, but horrible people that deserve justice nonetheless. Doesn't matter how much you improve the world if its through being Evil.

The more I read this story, half the time I can't take it seriously, and I see it as a comedy or a satire. The whole way it does some of this is too tongue and cheek to really be considered a serious thoughtful story. Unless it provides an actual counterpoint from the team good side of things in books 4 and 5, the appeal largely lies in its genre-savvy snarkiness and narrative exploitation rather than any actual attempt to actually address the issues of this world.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHHAHAAA....Kilian left Catherine because she wasn't evil enough! Even though she committed treason! Screw yooooooou Squire, this is what you get for choosing Evil! Especially while trying to remain in the gray- and failing horribly. Looks like she is getting a dose of karma for what she did to that angel.

Hehehehehe, your going to die Black Knight. Your going to die, and I'm going to rejoice, because your a psychopathic butcher who joined the losing side then raged about it not being a good tool to change things for the better.

Okay, another White Knight chapter. Interesting, so morality has evolved in Calernia just like in our world where what used to be normal was realized to be bad, like slavery, and it became a sin. Were they unable to realize the Angels telling them this, or did the Angels themselves change? Because good and evil supposedly predate people, but can people change what those mean?

I'm definitely smiling every time Catherine screws up and the fact all of her victories only seem to lead to greater disasters- I like how it feels as if she is sinking down into evil slowly and how she is only setting herself up for more pain despite all her attempts to change things for the better. I hope this all ends "tragically" while some hero stands over triumphant once again, because it would be the best way to end this series. That an older Catherine, come into her power, ruling alone dies to some young hero with a magic sword that she never saw coming, because a happy ending for her, I think would go against the story this is telling. That she gets so caught up in all her power games and trying to improve the world that she makes one mistake offhand that she doesn't really focus on or think much of that accidentally leans into a villain cliche that leads to her downfall out of nowhere. because the balls the Prasei villains are juggling can only be done for so long until one of them falls.

[Forum Explorer]

I have to post, because I just a read passage because it makes me a little angry:



Just.....just...No. Wrong. This is bad. This is just not correct. some undefinable "bleak thing" is no excuse or explanation. If you have a state of mind, its because you chose to have that state of mind and if Malicia was a cloistered sister who never hurt a fly, that means she never was TAUGHT that state of mind and never would get that "bleak thing" in the first place. Evil is evil. You make yourself what you are through your choices. This is just Catherine telling herself that her current state was inevitable because of a "bleak thing" and therefore she doesn't have to be responsible for her actions because of some vague quality that someone else nurtured and manipulated her into acquiring and cultivating.

If its an attempt by the author to say that Catherine's a psychopath, its a bad one, and doesn't even cover the fact that you don't have to be psychopathic or sociopathic to do evil things. any mindset can lead to evil if applied wrong, without care, and even then I find it doubtful that she is truly a sociopath, as she shows too many qualities that go against that, but she definitely as sociopathic tendencies, which isn't the same thing as being one. maybe some narcissistic ones as her morality tends to be very self-centered on her concerns.

Spoiler: other thoughts

Show

Eh. To me, if Catherine is truly Right and Lone Swordsman is Truly Wrong, then all thats happened is a mislabeling of sides. If Catherine is Truly Wrong and Lone Swordsman is Truly Right, then the story is doing nothing but a cheap trick of social perception. Evil is evil and Good is good, "the villain was good all along and did the right thing in her evilness" is not a sentence that parses or make sense. It is not addressing whether the Cosmic Good morality of the Angels is in the right and catherine is just a tragedy in the making or whether the Cosmic morality is in the wrong and Catherine is somehow creating a terrestrial morality from mixing heroic and evil traits that add up to something more workable. Time will tell which one is true.

on book 3 now, hehehe, Catherine got what she wanted and thats the most dangerous thing in the world. what will she do now?

aaah so thats the White Knights deal, hes a Two-Face, "my viewpoint is limited and unfair, I can only follow a higher code to do good" type, much like Szeth from Stormlight Archive, but probably in a bad way. shame, I like the Szeth interpretation of that kind of person better. but he seems competent! unlike Lone Swordsman or Exiled Prince who were both the narrative equivalents of mustache-twirlers. Hopefully he doesn't end up being revealed to be stupid or a jerk like them. Or having his coin flip being interrupted just to be a snarky thing about coin flip guys being stupid.

Ah, I see Malicia. All for bettering the lives until its Procer thats uniting and getting better, is it? Knew they show their evil colors. Take away the cackling and theatrics and evil is still evil and wrong, sure kill that general and let Procer keep fighting, that will solve so much. Malicia is just doing this save Praesi hides, screw her.

“Maybe that was how the Gods Below got you, I thought. They made you love people who could do horrible things just enough that you’d forgive them for it.” *laughter* see? This is why I keep emphasizing that evil is evil, and that your no hero, Catherine. They may be people, but horrible people that deserve justice nonetheless. Doesn't matter how much you improve the world if its through being Evil.

The more I read this story, half the time I can't take it seriously, and I see it as a comedy or a satire. The whole way it does some of this is too tongue and cheek to really be considered a serious thoughtful story. Unless it provides an actual counterpoint from the team good side of things in books 4 and 5, the appeal largely lies in its genre-savvy snarkiness and narrative exploitation rather than any actual attempt to actually address the issues of this world.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHHAHAAA....Kilian left Catherine because she wasn't evil enough! Even though she committed treason! Screw yooooooou Squire, this is what you get for choosing Evil! Especially while trying to remain in the gray- and failing horribly. Looks like she is getting a dose of karma for what she did to that angel.

Hehehehehe, your going to die Black Knight. Your going to die, and I'm going to rejoice, because your a psychopathic butcher who joined the losing side then raged about it not being a good tool to change things for the better.

Okay, another White Knight chapter. Interesting, so morality has evolved in Calernia just like in our world where what used to be normal was realized to be bad, like slavery, and it became a sin. Were they unable to realize the Angels telling them this, or did the Angels themselves change? Because good and evil supposedly predate people, but can people change what those mean?

I'm definitely smiling every time Catherine screws up and the fact all of her victories only seem to lead to greater disasters- I like how it feels as if she is sinking down into evil slowly and how she is only setting herself up for more pain despite all her attempts to change things for the better. I hope this all ends "tragically" while some hero stands over triumphant once again, because it would be the best way to end this series. That an older Catherine, come into her power, ruling alone dies to some young hero with a magic sword that she never saw coming, because a happy ending for her, I think would go against the story this is telling. That she gets so caught up in all her power games and trying to improve the world that she makes one mistake offhand that she doesn't really focus on or think much of that accidentally leans into a villain cliche that leads to her downfall out of nowhere. because the balls the Prasei villains are juggling can only be done for so long until one of them falls.

It should be obvious by this point that Cat doesn't know for sure what Good or Evil is on a definitive scale. And that her whole 'the ends justify the means' really does just result in a lot of Evil.


Also yes, the story is pretty light hearted, that doesn't really change.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm definitely smiling every time Catherine screws up and the fact all of her victories only seem to lead to greater disasters- I like how it feels as if she is sinking down into evil slowly and how she is only setting herself up for more pain despite all her attempts to change things for the better. I hope this all ends "tragically" while some hero stands over triumphant once again, because it would be the best way to end this series. That an older Catherine, come into her power, ruling alone dies to some young hero with a magic sword that she never saw coming, because a happy ending for her, I think would go against the story this is telling. That she gets so caught up in all her power games and trying to improve the world that she makes one mistake offhand that she doesn't really focus on or think much of that accidentally leans into a villain cliche that leads to her downfall out of nowhere. because the balls the Prasei villains are juggling can only be done for so long until one of them falls.

Raziere, you... realise you're reading a story about Evil protagonists, right? One that is not a tragedy?

A story that is written, almost to a tee, to the sort of thing I have wanted to read for a very long time? In essence, a decent (and it is WAY MORE than "decent"), not-100%-silly-comical but not 100%-serious "evil playthrough" as it were? (I mean, seriously, I ACTUALLY RELATE to Black and Cat. That NEVER happens.) A story so far up my alley it's come inside my house and is having tea and biscuits?

I just fear if you are expecting this to be something where you can point and laugh when the Evil protagonists fail and lose in the end... Well... I... don't think that's very likely...?

I mean, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it will end badly for Cat's Team Evil and the other side will win (and won't that be a tragedy in and of itself in-universe...) or the gnomes will kill everyone or something, but I would honestly be surprised. (And extremely miffed.)

I feel I can safely say that by the end of the series, I am pretty much convinced one or other of the two of us is going to be very disappointed.