The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Ladies and gentlemen, i present to you one of the best explanation of the Chaotic alignment:

    Spoiler: Book 4 Ch 18
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    More than once I’d reflected that Archer had a lot in common with orcs, when it came to the way she looked at the world. I’d been wrong, though. Oh, they both liked blood on the floor and they measured most things through strength. But orcs had… loyalties. Not in the way I’d been taught to have them, but they were there. Follow the warlord, protect the clan, uphold what an orc should be. Indrani had none of that. If she was loyal to anything, it was herself. A betrayal, to her, would be forcing herself to do something she didn’t want to do. Pretending to be something else than she was. Black and I were creatures fettered to outcomes, if not means. Archer, and Ranger as well I suspected, could not conceive a world where fetters could be anything but a sin. The only thing Indrani had it in her to truly hate was being restrained.
    There is a back story chapter at some point about her childhood that clears a lot of that up.

    Archer and Thief are the best written chaotic characters I've read. No Randumbness, perfectly consistent and understandable characterization.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    So i am in Chapter 27, where Cath and her friends go meet the.. invitation, and I have a theory.

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    The Dread King is not actually the Dread King. It is a ghestal entity similar to the Watch Ghestal that was the crux of Book 3. The Dread King is made up of all the souls of the kingdom that lived there in the past, or maybe all the casters.

    They wanted to protect themselves against the more.martial inclined Lycanoeses. And.. either it went terribly right, or it went terribly wrong?

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Wow.. rather shocking development in the latest chapter.
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    I like the look into the mind of the Pilgrim. And find it kinda surprising just how ruthless the author managed to make a genuinly good person.
    Because i mean, we are talking about someone who willingly entered a plague-struck city to tend the sick. And who gave up his place as prince for the benefit of his sister.
    And while the end bit with the wyvern felt partly like a betrayal of trust, then its also kinda hard to find any sort of alternative.

    Regarding Kat, then i also like her attempt at finding at making peace. I like her argument about how likely it is that the current deal set up for them, of two rabid beasts in a pit,
    would end a lot better for both of them if they instead helped each other out. I do kinda hope the ending was a author trick. As i would prefer this resolved by diplomacy.

    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Ok. I have reached chapter 38, where they wake up.and follow cards instructions.

    What/who is the Skein? They seem to have learned knowledge of that individual and trying to fool him, but I may have accidentally skipped over when he is discussed...?

    Edit: ok, nevermind. Thief says it veeeeery fast..

    By the way: i love this book so damn much

    Spoiler
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    “I must find her,” the Host gravely said. “It would be a grave breach of hospitality if-“

    “Oh, look,” I said. “Adjutant is sick.”

    There was a heartbeat of silence. Hakram coughed into his fist.

    “I am,” he loyally said.
    Last edited by Cikomyr; 2018-12-03 at 07:55 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Wow.. rather shocking development in the latest chapter.
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    I like the look into the mind of the Pilgrim. And find it kinda surprising just how ruthless the author managed to make a genuinly good person.
    Because i mean, we are talking about someone who willingly entered a plague-struck city to tend the sick. And who gave up his place as prince for the benefit of his sister.
    And while the end bit with the wyvern felt partly like a betrayal of trust, then its also kinda hard to find any sort of alternative.

    Regarding Kat, then i also like her attempt at finding at making peace. I like her argument about how likely it is that the current deal set up for them, of two rabid beasts in a pit,
    would end a lot better for both of them if they instead helped each other out. I do kinda hope the ending was a author trick. As i would prefer this resolved by diplomacy.

    Spoiler: Interlude: Peregine I
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    He's not a good person.

    It is apparent to me that any actions he performs that might be good don't come because he is particularly concerned about the action itself, just in convincing himself that he's a good person because he does them. (Even going out into the city struck me as lensed more as rebellion than compassion and that might be the only actually genuinely good action I've seen him do. (And which makes his willingness to inflict it on other people as a fricking weapon rather more pathetic hypocrasy. ) He's not really doing it to make the world a better place (even though that's what he tells himself), he's doing it so he can quietly nod to himself and say he's done the right thing and not feel bad. Like the wealthy person throwing a charity ball for PR rather than any desire to help - it's just his PR is internal.

    (And if this is by the definition good - it's action, not intent - then oh deary me, Akua might even have a chance...)

    As was pointed out in the comments, rather than staying so support his sister after telling them to frack off, he just walked off. And - something I had not picked up on until it was pointed out - him refusing the would-be advances of the young lady was lensed through how it would shame him - and at no point did he make any kind of polite debuff. It was all talk of temptation and dishonour, not concern for her. Now, were it not for everything else, I wouldn't have thought anything of it, but with everything else Pilgrim is, I think even the little moments like this are more than they just would be in isolation.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2018-12-03 at 08:58 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Spoiler: Peregrine
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    Oh gods thats the most unfair judgement i have seen so far in this thread. And i am going to include all those in the story there.
    We have someone who spend 6 months in what is almost litteral hell, a city wrecked by plague, to aid those in need because and i quote
    "Tariq would not hide behind tall walls when his people were dying like animals mere street corners away"

    And then when he found out he were unfairly being favored as heir, over the sister who had spend her life preparing for it.
    A sister it should be added, wanted the job, who were hurt by being rejected for the title.
    Then he said "**** it" and left his life of comfort behind. This was by the age of 18.

    We then meet him again working as a wandering healer. Where his first act is to refuse payment for his latest deed out of the simple fact that
    "If there was a lean month, come winter, they could make the difference between survival and starvation"

    You need to be extremely, extremely biased against the Peregrine to spin this into being bad. Or selfish.


    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Spoiler: Peregrine
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    Yeah, he definitely seems like he was a good person THEN. Which makes him all the more hypocritical in the now.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Spoiler: Peregrine
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    Yeah, he definitely seems like he was a good person THEN. Which makes him all the more hypocritical in the now.
    Spoiler
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    I suspect that's the intent, and further support for my headcanon that heroic aging is meant as a built-in expiration date to prevent heroes from becoming so jaded and bitter/cynical that they become outright villains. Almost without exception (said exception being the grimdark antiheroic LS), younger heroes have been portrayed as genuinely Good and altruistic, with the older they get turning more grey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
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    I suspect that's the intent, and further support for my headcanon that heroic aging is meant as a built-in expiration date to prevent heroes from becoming so jaded and bitter/cynical that they become outright villains. Almost without exception (said exception being the grimdark antiheroic LS), younger heroes have been portrayed as genuinely Good and altruistic, with the older they get turning more grey.
    Spoiler
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    This may be the fairly natural result of a change in perspective throughout a Hero's career, and it's something the Gods Above likely explicitly encourage: At the start of a Hero's time as a Named, they have become a Hero to Do Good (recompense past wrongs, relieve injustice, encourage charity, etc, etc.) Part of that naturally involves Defeating Evil, but it's not their sole purpose - it's a thing they do because they think it's going to bring a better life to those affected by the Evil they fight. However, the Gods Above just want them to Defeat Evil - to score points against the other team. Any benefit that might accrue to mortals from having a Hero around is purely a secondary side effect and possibly a useful public relations point. So the Gods Above reward Heroes with more power when they Defeat Evil, creating a rewards loop to the point where the Hero forgets that they meant to Do Good and instead assume the purpose of Defeating Evil; they stop considering so much whether their actions are Good, but are mainly concerned with how much they can harm Evil. Gray Pilgrim and Saint of Swords are, to me, obviously at the end of this progression - whatever they may have started as, they aren't agents of Good any more. They're just weapons against Evil, and there is a strong difference.

    Being directly sponsored/empowered by one of the Choirs would result in vastly speeding up this change in mentality - at that point you don't have the indirect rewards any more, you have a literal angel whispering in your mind what they want you doing.

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Hey guys, there is something i didnt get about Book 3

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    Why did the Fae attack? The Winter soldiers (hehe) at the start of the book claim its because Summer is attacking, but the Summer princess at the end said they attack because Winter attacked.

    Like.. what prompted the initial attacks? Was Summer's wars totally unrelated to the events in Liesse?!

    Also, what is the consequence of the Wedding? There is no more Summer and Winter?! The two courts are forever united? But i thought they were reborn every seasons, why is the wedding everbinding?

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    For your second question, read further and see. ;)

    For the firs tone, well
    Spoiler: Reasons for Fae Attacks
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    As far as I saw it, it was mainly due to the fact that the situation in Callow allowed the Courts to attempt to get a foothold in Creation, something they would ordinarily have massive troubles to get. Add to that the Summer Fae Akua abducted to fuel her ritual to get the whole mess started, and they probably saw no reason at all to stop. Ever.

    Sadly, Cat came along ^^

    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    For your second question, read further and see. ;)

    For the firs tone, well
    Spoiler: Reasons for Fae Attacks
    Show


    As far as I saw it, it was mainly due to the fact that the situation in Callow allowed the Courts to attempt to get a foothold in Creation, something they would ordinarily have massive troubles to get. Add to that the Summer Fae Akua abducted to fuel her ritual to get the whole mess started, and they probably saw no reason at all to stop. Ever.

    Sadly, Cat came along ^^

    "Further along".. i am Chapter 46 in book 4. Answers will be coming?

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    Yes, especially in Cats thoughts/monologues (though as far as I remember some of it should already have come up.....?).
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Yes, especially in Cats thoughts/monologues (though as far as I remember some of it should already have come up.....?).
    Yes. It explained roughly the what, but hardly the why it happened. Why is she the last Winter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Yes. It explained roughly the what, but hardly the why it happened. Why is she the last Winter?
    That I don't think was explicitly stated. I've been assuming it's because she's not actually fae; the other fairies are bound to go as their King and Queen go. Cat was connected to Winter but not ruled by it, so when the two courts merged to become whatever they now are she was not required to go with them and was left as the sole creature with a connection to unaltered Winter. (Note the statements of symmetry between Winter and Summer suggest there is unclaimed Summer power out there waiting for something with the appropriate conditions to claim it. It's been commented that this may be a way to bring Killian back into the story if the author desires, or possibly something interesting may come of the spark of Summer that forged Masego's eyes.)

    ..hmm. Not actually being fae may be why Cat was previously so slow to hand out Winter titles, especially to the Wild Hunt riders who would have made great use of them.. she's not good at wielding Winter, and the Treacherous Lieutenant is part and parcel of Winter. I think she would have been at significant risk of being usurped if she had granted Winter to a being that was much more naturally suited to bearing and using it.

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    For the symmetri its more likely that a hero will snatch up, or have snatched, a flicker of summer power.

    Spoiler: On the nature of heroes
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    This may be the fairly natural result of a change in perspective throughout a Hero's career, and it's something the Gods Above likely explicitly encourage: At the start of a Hero's time as a Named, they have become a Hero to Do Good (recompense past wrongs, relieve injustice, encourage charity, etc, etc.) Part of that naturally involves Defeating Evil, but it's not their sole purpose - it's a thing they do because they think it's going to bring a better life to those affected by the Evil they fight. However, the Gods Above just want them to Defeat Evil - to score points against the other team. Any benefit that might accrue to mortals from having a Hero around is purely a secondary side effect and possibly a useful public relations point. So the Gods Above reward Heroes with more power when they Defeat Evil, creating a rewards loop to the point where the Hero forgets that they meant to Do Good and instead assume the purpose of Defeating Evil; they stop considering so much whether their actions are Good, but are mainly concerned with how much they can harm Evil. Gray Pilgrim and Saint of Swords are, to me, obviously at the end of this progression - whatever they may have started as, they aren't agents of Good any more. They're just weapons against Evil, and there is a strong difference.
    I think your putting to much into this. It is rather unlikely heroes can go though warfare against the litteral forces of hell, watch the horrors they commit again and again,
    And not eventually burn out somehow.
    We dont as such actually know what the Gods Above want, but for the majority of heroes i dont think they are directly granted power by them.
    The same way that Cat hasnt directly been granted power by the hellgods.

    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    So. The Dwarves.

    They are scary as ****. They act like if the best Dwarf Fortress players controlled their Empire. Efficient, non-compromising, murderous, greedy, proud and revengeful.

    And expanding. None of that "past the Apex of our Glory" of Tolkien, Forgotten Realm or Warhammer. These are still ever conquering *******s.

    Edit: its the first time I heard of something Ranger will just not challenge. Have we heard how she feels about Elves?
    Last edited by Cikomyr; 2018-12-06 at 09:41 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    So. The Dwarves.

    They are scary as ****. They act like if the best Dwarf Fortress players controlled their Empire. Efficient, non-compromising, murderous, greedy, proud and revengeful.

    And expanding. None of that "past the Apex of our Glory" of Tolkien, Forgotten Realm or Warhammer. These are still ever conquering *******s.

    Edit: its the first time I heard of something Ranger will just not challenge. Have we heard how she feels about Elves?
    Hey! In Spelljammer the dwarves are an up and coming power with their colossal space fortresses. They don't even need to purchase their helms, making them and the Neogi/Mindflayers the only groups free of the insidious Mercane/Arcane.

    I don't recall them doing so. Ranger is kind of a big fish in a little pond, their continent is the East Blue of the setting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Edit: its the first time I heard of something Ranger will just not challenge. Have we heard how she feels about Elves?
    I vaguely recall that she'd be happy to fight an Elf, and might make trips into the Golden Bloom to do so, but wouldn't want to piss off Elves in general. Couldn't provide a reference for that, tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    I vaguely recall that she'd be happy to fight an Elf, and might make trips into the Golden Bloom to do so, but wouldn't want to piss off Elves in general. Couldn't provide a reference for that, tho.
    Ranger hates Elves. Considering she's half-Elf herself, I'd say it probably has something to do with her parentage. IIRC (it's been a while), while she likes to go after Elves whenever she can get away with it, even she isn't deadly enough to just maraud her way into the Golden Bloom. Which might be because the Bloom is some kind of pocket dimension or something; implications are strong that the Elves are some sort of extradimensional horror or something in this setting, and the Golden Bloom is kind of notorious for moving around, not following the normal laws of reality and sometimes being impossible to get into or out of.


    Spoiler: Most Recent Chapter
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    So, is anyone else shocked and more than a bit concerned by the fact that Bard plays for both the Gods Above and the Gods Below? It implies something about her nature that very much does not jibe with what I had believed her to be (Above's version of the Dead King, an ancient immortal force tweaking things in their favour), based on Black Knight's thoughts on the matter. I'm starting to wonder if she isn't so much the trump card of the Gods Above as she is the person who makes sure all of the pieces stay in line and keep playing the game the way they're supposed to. The more we learn about her, the less we seem to actually know about what her real role in things is.
    Avatar by the wonderful SubLimePie. Former avatar by Andraste.

  21. - Top - End - #291
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Spoiler: Most Recent Chapter
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    So, is anyone else shocked and more than a bit concerned by the fact that Bard plays for both the Gods Above and the Gods Below? It implies something about her nature that very much does not jibe with what I had believed her to be (Above's version of the Dead King, an ancient immortal force tweaking things in their favour), based on Black Knight's thoughts on the matter. I'm starting to wonder if she isn't so much the trump card of the Gods Above as she is the person who makes sure all of the pieces stay in line and keep playing the game the way they're supposed to. The more we learn about her, the less we seem to actually know about what her real role in things is.
    Spoiler
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    Not in the slightest - I am pretty sure she the physical manifestation of The Story and thus her principle job is to just keep the conflict going forever for the god's urinating contest; hense why she's so adamant Black, Malica and Cat are so dangerous. They stand to stop playing the game.

    Pilgrim might be bad, but Bard is worse.

  22. - Top - End - #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
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    Not in the slightest - I am pretty sure she the physical manifestation of The Story and thus her principle job is to just keep the conflict going forever for the god's urinating contest; hense why she's so adamant Black, Malica and Cat are so dangerous. They stand to stop playing the game.

    Pilgrim might be bad, but Bard is worse.

    Spoiler
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    Yeah, she represents fate or something. Keeping the game going.

    The interesting part is why she wants that. Why does a person who literally skips through time want the game to continue? Most likely because the alternative is worse. Perhaps without the game, the gods have literally no use for Creation. Sure, by continuing the game and fixing it so it remains an interesting tie, she's killing people endlessly, but if she's saving everyone and everything by doing so...well, that's certainly consistent with her actions so far.

    Probably this ends with Cat stabbing her, and also all of the gods, and possibly reality itself. I'm looking forward to it.

    Also, Akua remains Best Hero Ever in this chapter.
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  23. - Top - End - #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
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    Yeah, she represents fate or something. Keeping the game going.

    The interesting part is why she wants that. Why does a person who literally skips through time want the game to continue? Most likely because the alternative is worse. Perhaps without the game, the gods have literally no use for Creation. Sure, by continuing the game and fixing it so it remains an interesting tie, she's killing people endlessly, but if she's saving everyone and everything by doing so...well, that's certainly consistent with her actions so far.

    Probably this ends with Cat stabbing her, and also all of the gods, and possibly reality itself. I'm looking forward to it.

    Also, Akua remains Best Hero Ever in this chapter.
    Spoiler: more Bard stuff
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    I don't think what Bard wants has any relevance to it. The other people who have given her names know her as Intercessor and Envoy.. she's an agent for other beings. Apparently she's what responds, at least in some cases, when somebody wants to ask something especially interesting of the Gods Above or Below. The Dead King figured out how to play her/the Gods Below. Sve Noc failed in their attempt. So this raises an interesting question, I think: Who asked for help against the Calamities, and was sent 'The Wandering Bard' with a plan as an answer?

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Spoiler: Dwarven Warfare
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    The angle of steel ballistas was adjusted, projectiles from the second wagons loaded, and the volley arced up moments later. The spheres were stone this time, not steel. I did not wait long to learn why: at the summit of their arc, just above the hollow, they burst. Burning rain fell down, reaping a harvest of screams and death.

    “Lava,” I quietly said. “That was ****ing lava.”

    “I mean, it’s not like they’re ever going to run out,” Indrani mused. “I can see the logic behind it.”


    Holy ****, they ARE Dwarf Fortress players

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    Spoiler: bard stuff
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    Did the Bard actually do much in Williams party besides get drunk and make passes at everything that moved?
    It mostly seemed like she observed things.

    Though it is really peculiar, that she is acting as mediator for both teams.
    One would think each side were going to pick their own. Its especially weird because both sides are at times allowed to intervene somehow.
    So why use the bard at all?



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    oh.. and loved the recent episode.
    Both how Aku lured the sisters into a verbal fight and begun to demolish the older one.

    And how Cat found whats likely the only way to beat the system. By surrendering without a fight.
    Did also like that she will likely give up her Fae power for good.
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2018-12-07 at 01:52 PM.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Spoiler: bard stuff
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    Did the Bard actually do much in Williams party besides get drunk and make passes at everything that moved?
    It mostly seemed like she observed things.

    Though it is really peculiar, that she is acting as mediator for both teams.
    One would think each side were going to pick their own. Its especially weird because both sides are at times allowed to intervene somehow.
    So why use the bard at all?
    Spoiler: Bard and William
    Show
    Not that we saw on-page, no. With what's been implied by her previous appearances I suspect she may have been responsible for giving William the idea to try and summon the Hashmallim and generally been the guidance behind his inspiration of the Liesse Rebellion, probably also lead the rest of his party to him. Once she had put the plans in motion she was likely just tagging along to make sure they kept on track.. and by the time Cat put them off track it was too late to try to fix it, especially since Bard doesn't seem very capable of direct action. Her MO involves manipulating other pieces in the game.. I don't think she was quite prepared for Cat's whole 'I'm going to kill myself, necromance myself, and steal a resurrection from the incoming angel' plan.

  27. - Top - End - #297
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    New Chapter

    Spoiler
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    A really good chapter, fixes a lot of the shonen style problems the plot has been developing. I'm a big fan of Cat and Sve Noc sticking it to the Gods Below and allying with the Crusade.

    Also anyone else feel like Killian being out of the plot really didn't change much? I like Archer and Thief much better.

  28. - Top - End - #298
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    lord_khaine's Avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    It was an awesome chapter. One of the best in a very long time.
    One that reminded me of why i love the serie. I think this was the perfect resolution to all of this.

    I particularly liked the final bit. Both how Sve Noc decided to test Cat.
    And her realisation of "your not Archer, she would have grown bored ½ though this"

    A really good chapter, fixes a lot of the shonen style problems the plot has been developing
    And yeah i kinda agree with this. Cat was going from victory to victory. But this was really a fight she should have been able to win in anything but a action RPG.
    I mean, we were already shown that some of stronger drow were a danger to Cat on their own. She should not have been able to handle their goddess.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  29. - Top - End - #299
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    druid91's Avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    It was an awesome chapter. One of the best in a very long time.
    One that reminded me of why i love the serie. I think this was the perfect resolution to all of this.

    I particularly liked the final bit. Both how Sve Noc decided to test Cat.
    And her realisation of "your not Archer, she would have grown bored ½ though this"



    And yeah i kinda agree with this. Cat was going from victory to victory. But this was really a fight she should have been able to win in anything but a action RPG.
    I mean, we were already shown that some of stronger drow were a danger to Cat on their own. She should not have been able to handle their goddess.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Eh, I could have seen it go either way to be honest. The Stronger Drow were a threat yes, because Cat hadn't got used to fighting like a Goddess on her own. We saw something of that realization when she summarily crushed that one Drow beneath half of Arcadia.
    Spoiler
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarZero View Post
    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

    Non est salvatori salvator, neque defensori dominus, nec pater nec mater, nihil supernum.

    Torumekian knight Avatar by Licoot.

    Note to self: Never get involved in an ethics thread again...Especially if I'm defending the empire.

  30. - Top - End - #300
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Suddenly i want to replay a game of Tyranny as Catherine Foundling.

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