A Practical Guide to Evil

[Anteros]

You're looking for big pivotal moments when she could have made a dramatic turn. I agree that there's not a ton of those (although there are a few. William's band might have actually took down Warlock if she helped them instead of shutting them down for example.)

She still has options though. She could help some of these rebellions or work to let them get to Black. Or working to take out Black/Malicia herself. If she was really concerned about freeing her country killing those 2 and stepping down is all it would take for the whole evil empire to fall apart in a few years.

These options just aren't mostly explored because it's not that kind of story.

[The Glyphstone]

That, and it wouldnt solve the problem long term. It might buy a decade or two, but the next Dread Emperor would be very unlikely to be in Malicia's mold. So Callow gets invaded all over again and the cycle restarts.

[tyckspoon]

She still has options though. She could help some of these rebellions or work to let them get to Black. Or working to take out Black/Malicia herself. If she was really concerned about freeing her country killing those 2 and stepping down is all it would take for the whole evil empire to fall apart in a few years.

I don't remember the particular timeline of when she found out about it, but after she learned about the starvation/war cycle in Praes Black and Malicia became distinctly the lesser of evils - if she took them out or broke their control of Praes, it would return to the old ways. In another generation Praes would come marching again, and there's no guarantee it would be with mortal boots on the ground and an intent to preserve the conquered territory; chunks of Callow would again be at risk of being torched into wasteland, permanently corrupted by demons, or have invisible sentient maneating animals become part of the local ecology. Catherine wants Callow's independence, certainly, but more than that she wants Callow to have a guarantee of peace and relative safety. If that means they're a vassal or client state of Praes that's acceptable, as long as they're not being directly harmed by Praesi politics (like being a dumping ground for politically connected corrupt nobles to loot the country) or the target of Praesi warfare.

[Anteros]

I don't remember the particular timeline of when she found out about it, but after she learned about the starvation/war cycle in Praes Black and Malicia became distinctly the lesser of evils - if she took them out or broke their control of Praes, it would return to the old ways. In another generation Praes would come marching again, and there's no guarantee it would be with mortal boots on the ground and an intent to preserve the conquered territory; chunks of Callow would again be at risk of being torched into wasteland, permanently corrupted by demons, or have invisible sentient maneating animals become part of the local ecology. Catherine wants Callow's independence, certainly, but more than that she wants Callow to have a guarantee of peace and relative safety. If that means they're a vassal or client state of Praes that's acceptable, as long as they're not being directly harmed by Praesi politics (like being a dumping ground for politically connected corrupt nobles to loot the country) or the target of Praesi warfare.

There's some famous relevant quotes here about how people who would exchange freedom for safety deserve neither.

Regardless, this point doesn't even hold up. Things aren't exactly peaceful under Black and Malicia. Her country is a perpetual warzone anyway. In fact, Cat is personally responsible for at least 1 war.

At least they'd get a generation of peace under the old system. Let's also not forget that historically most Praes invasions are incompetent and quickly smacked down. Callow has shown to be more than capable of defending themselves in the past. All they're doing is trading being miserable all the time instead of being happy most of the time and having to defend themselves. It's incredibly cowardly.

[Florian]

I think it is pretty clear what Praesi is modeled after and what exactly is implied. In a way, same holds true for Callow. (Don´t get me started at Procer, I cringe every time).

Skip the fantasy stuff and Praesi is a solid example for one of the oil exporting countries in the MENA region: Their wealth gives them power and as a side effect rapid growth, but wealth alone can´t feed people or create jobs to keep them occupied. Power doesn't necessarily transfer into competence, unless we speak about competence in a certain area, which Praesi possess.

Callow is your basic european country: No resources beyond food and manpower, but you make the most out of what you can get (see Callow Knights).

It´s a nightmare constellation and one we all should be too familiar with. It´s also one of the reason some countries opted to go for the method of "ever closer union" or "the ties that bind" to mitigate the risk of that situation.

Basically, we see a total perversion here: Callow can actually keep Praesi fed and thriving. It could also cut tied and smack down any Praesi attempt again, they just need to update their fare methods.

[Anteros]

I think it is pretty clear what Praesi is modeled after and what exactly is implied. In a way, same holds true for Callow. (Don´t get me started at Procer, I cringe every time).

Skip the fantasy stuff and Praesi is a solid example for one of the oil exporting countries in the MENA region: Their wealth gives them power and as a side effect rapid growth, but wealth alone can´t feed people or create jobs to keep them occupied. Power doesn't necessarily transfer into competence, unless we speak about competence in a certain area, which Praesi possess.

Callow is your basic european country: No resources beyond food and manpower, but you make the most out of what you can get (see Callow Knights).

It´s a nightmare constellation and one we all should be too familiar with. It´s also one of the reason some countries opted to go for the method of "ever closer union" or "the ties that bind" to mitigate the risk of that situation.

Basically, we see a total perversion here: Callow can actually keep Praesi fed and thriving. It could also cut tied and smack down any Praesi attempt again, they just need to update their fare methods.

All of that could happen without one country needing to subjugate the other into slavery though. Maybe just offer them an alliance and trade after the evil empire inevitably falls apart once Black is gone. Hell, Black himself would probably even step down if you offered him a working plan to benefit both countries.

Ultimately, that's where the story is going anyway. Cat is just using horrifically evil means to get there instead of good ones. Do the ends justify the means? Even when there are other alternatives? Whether you believe that or not is going to determine whether or not you think Cat is justified, and lord knows none of us are going to convince anyone else to change their position on it.

[The Glyphstone]

At this point, I think one of the aforementioned sentient invisible tigers would be a better candidate for Dread Emperor than any of the alternatives.

[lord_khaine]

There's some famous relevant quotes here about how people who would exchange freedom for safety deserve neither.

Thats actually the BS, butchered version used for ideological warfare.
The original said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[Anteros]

Thats actually the BS, butchered version used for ideological warfare.
The original said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

It's literally the exact same meaning khaine. If one is BS so is the other.

[The Glyphstone]

Let's try to keep real-world politics out of this debate...

[Forum Explorer]

There's some famous relevant quotes here about how people who would exchange freedom for safety deserve neither.

Regardless, this point doesn't even hold up. Things aren't exactly peaceful under Black and Malicia. Her country is a perpetual warzone anyway. In fact, Cat is personally responsible for at least 1 war.

At least they'd get a generation of peace under the old system. Let's also not forget that historically most Praes invasions are incompetent and quickly smacked down. Callow has shown to be more than capable of defending themselves in the past. All they're doing is trading being miserable all the time instead of being happy most of the time and having to defend themselves. It's incredibly cowardly.

I don't know. On one had, you're right. But on the other there is finally hope that it doesn't have to be this way. In the past Praes would invade, Callow would, usually, beat them off, and Praes would eventually repeat the cycle. But now if they can fend off Procer there's a pretty good chance for Cat to create a lasting peace.

It's also worth remembering that in the times of peace, before the rebellion and during Cat's brief rule, the people are as happy as they've ever been. It's part of the reason why Black was able to talk them into surrendering instead of making a last stand. The fact is that the current administration is pretty decent.

Also also, they didn't trade anything. They tried their best to fend off the Legions of Evil and lost. They had a rebellion and lost. Cat did her thing, and hey, that kinda worked. Callow is basically free again, but at the cost of becoming a target for Procer. She offered to ally with Procer against Praes, and they said no.

Not really. We basically have to deal with a tug-of-war between Procer and Praes. The whole line of argument when it comes to the Lone Swordsman only holds true when taking Procer out of the picture and replacing it with Callow. Cats main argument back then was, that the Lone Swordsman (or other heroes) would lead Callow into a rebellion they couldn't win. That's basically bad world building, because one chapter later, we learn that the crusader-state of Procer would have interfered there and then, to keep Callow in the fold of Above.

That's not bad decision making, it´s bad penmanship.

Beyond that, I agree. Nothing to blame when she was forced to react on the spot, the Draw episode was maybe the first in a long time when she actually acted.

I'm not sure I understand your statement. Are you saying a rebellion wasn't doomed? Because while it did have a chance to succeed, we also saw it fail. Cat played a role in the rebellion failing, but it wasn't an indispensable one. Her main thing was preventing the Lone Swordsman from wiping out Lisse and preventing Akua from wiping out Matchford.

[Florian]

@Antaros:

The subtle difference there is not trivial. It rather points out the difference between an "Independent Callow" and "Free Callow" and that both are not the same. Hm.. how to explain that? Ok, right now we basically have a federation with two member states, Praesi and Callow. Under Cat, Callow has more or less regained freedom, but is still part of the federation, which is quite different from being an independent _and_ free sovereign country of their own. Free is free, right? But free is not equal to independent and free.

@Forum Explorer:

This has to do with an initial flaw in the setup and world building. We now know that countries like Procer understand themselves to be on the side of "Above" and are willing to launch fully-fledged crusades against countries they understand as being on the side of "Below".

Now revisit the initial situation with William. Cat was convinced that a true rebellion would fail because her perception of Praesi was that the Legions of Terror were mightier than anything that Callow could field, so a rebellion started by the Hero was doomed to end in senseless bloodshed. Her solution was to remake Callow into a villainous realms under her aegis, wrestling a bit of freedom from the Tower.

A bit later, Procer and friends were shown to be capable in their own right, able to launch crusades that can beat back Praesi and unwilling to have countries like Callow fellow Villains, worse, commit to Below.

Here, at least for me, my willingness to suspend disbelieve breaks down hard. Book 1 and 2 more or less dealt with the relationship between Callow and Praesi, while a bit later we get a full treatment of what Above and their associated countries and Heroes could field, of that wanted Callow n their fold, meaning Williams possible rebellion (Waves the Saint around like a flag).

[Forum Explorer]

@Forum Explorer:

This has to do with an initial flaw in the setup and world building. We now know that countries like Procer understand themselves to be on the side of "Above" and are willing to launch fully-fledged crusades against countries they understand as being on the side of "Below".

Now revisit the initial situation with William. Cat was convinced that a true rebellion would fail because her perception of Praesi was that the Legions of Terror were mightier than anything that Callow could field, so a rebellion started by the Hero was doomed to end in senseless bloodshed. Her solution was to remake Callow into a villainous realms under her aegis, wrestling a bit of freedom from the Tower.

A bit later, Procer and friends were shown to be capable in their own right, able to launch crusades that can beat back Praesi and unwilling to have countries like Callow fellow Villains, worse, commit to Below.

Here, at least for me, my willingness to suspend disbelieve breaks down hard. Book 1 and 2 more or less dealt with the relationship between Callow and Praesi, while a bit later we get a full treatment of what Above and their associated countries and Heroes could field, of that wanted Callow n their fold, meaning Williams possible rebellion (Waves the Saint around like a flag).

I'm still not entirely positive if I'm understanding you.

Are you asking why didn't Procer declare a Crusade earlier? If so, the answer is that Procer was just getting out of a really bloody civil war and still needed to negotiate the Grand Alliance.

If it's why didn't the Heroes show up earlier, it's because a) they did, but they were the sort of scrubs that Cat killed at the start of Book 4. Only difference is Black killed them. and b) for veteran heroes like the SoS and Grey Pilgrim, trying to liberate Callow without further motivation would kill them. Heroes operate on story logic. And a veteran hero coming out of retirement to fight an evil empire would gurantee that they'd do damage, but they'd certainly die in the attempt. Not unless Black did something like kill their pet dog or other loved one to make it a righteous rampage of revenge.

Otherwise they'd basically be Obi-Wan. Their death might have meaning, but the weight of the story is always the old legendary hero dies when facing the new BBEG. And Black is terrifyingly good at avoiding his supposed inevitable defeat.

Also c) The heroes kinda suck. It's actually one of Cat's complaints that why didn't the heroes show up when Callow needed them most? And that they are only showing up now that she's seized control, and restored peace.

[lord_khaine]

Have we stopped spoilering the stuff from the later books?

Here, at least for me, my willingness to suspend disbelieve breaks down hard. Book 1 and 2 more or less dealt with the relationship between Callow and Praesi, while a bit later we get a full treatment of what Above and their associated countries and Heroes could field, of that wanted Callow n their fold, meaning Williams possible rebellion (Waves the Saint around like a flag).

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Well, above did clearly want Callow back, some heroes were raised despite Blacks attempt to supress that. But there can be a difference on how much you want something.
Like how you might want an icecream, but likely want even more to avoid getting kicked in the balls?
And from an immortal perspective, Callow being occupied is a very minor setback.
It had barely gone on for a generation? It will likely change hands eventually. Like if the building crusade is succesful.

Because more importantly, veteran heroes like Saint/Pilgrim and Witch are the heavens strongest weapon. They have taken a very long time to build up.
They will take a long time to replace. And they are both mortal and vulnerable. So they are being held in reserve. For stuff like someone building a hellrift gun.
Black directly smashed that citing the sort of heroes it would draw out of retirement. Or things like a new Dead King 2.0 suddenly brewing in Callow.

Also c) The heroes kinda suck. It's actually one of Cat's complaints that why didn't the heroes show up when Callow needed them most? And that they are only showing up now that she's seized control, and restored peace.

Spoiler

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That bit is partly unfair(but only partly), because some heroes did show up. They were just killed by black.
Of course the unspoken bit there were that they were really showing up to block Cat from turning into the Dead King Queen version II

[Tyndmyr]

No Named in Liesse!

Akua confirmed as Hero!



I would also like to point out that Akua is actually getting a little bit of unfair flack here, both in and out of universe.

Black, Malicia or even Cordelia must have caused at least that many deaths (of the soldier and innocent alike) by their actions over the years. Sure, not each one by their own hand, but all the people on both sides who died in the various conflicts... Hell, by starting the crusade, Cordy may have wracked up the highest count of all.

Akua just killed the highest number at once.

To be fair, Akua was also quite young, making her something of an overachiever for her age. Had she been permitted to have a villainous career of the length of any of the three you mention, I do believe she'd have wracked up a rather impressive body count putting them to shame. Akua was also quite willing to sacrifice people on other occasions, after all, so the rate at which she murders does put her in unusual company.

[druid91]

@Antaros:

The subtle difference there is not trivial. It rather points out the difference between an "Independent Callow" and "Free Callow" and that both are not the same. Hm.. how to explain that? Ok, right now we basically have a federation with two member states, Praesi and Callow. Under Cat, Callow has more or less regained freedom, but is still part of the federation, which is quite different from being an independent _and_ free sovereign country of their own. Free is free, right? But free is not equal to independent and free.

@Forum Explorer:

This has to do with an initial flaw in the setup and world building. We now know that countries like Procer understand themselves to be on the side of "Above" and are willing to launch fully-fledged crusades against countries they understand as being on the side of "Below".

Now revisit the initial situation with William. Cat was convinced that a true rebellion would fail because her perception of Praesi was that the Legions of Terror were mightier than anything that Callow could field, so a rebellion started by the Hero was doomed to end in senseless bloodshed. Her solution was to remake Callow into a villainous realms under her aegis, wrestling a bit of freedom from the Tower.

A bit later, Procer and friends were shown to be capable in their own right, able to launch crusades that can beat back Praesi and unwilling to have countries like Callow fellow Villains, worse, commit to Below.

Here, at least for me, my willingness to suspend disbelieve breaks down hard. Book 1 and 2 more or less dealt with the relationship between Callow and Praesi, while a bit later we get a full treatment of what Above and their associated countries and Heroes could field, of that wanted Callow n their fold, meaning Williams possible rebellion (Waves the Saint around like a flag).

Except not only was the Saint busy protecting her hometown from the very military Procer is committing to the crusade, but as mentioned, Procer was shattered into a civil war that had only recently ended.

Meanwhile, The Legions of Terror had lost a lot attempting to contain the Liesse rebellion and the Fae invasion. And even so weakened, they STILL managed to blunt a heavy handed assault by the gods above. At great cost, but they did manage to do it.

Now imagine some fragment of procer trying that while still fractured, without the narrative weight the Doom of Liesse allowed for.

What you get is a princely response.

[Florian]

@The thing with Procer:

Like a lot of other countries, this one is modeled quite near to European history and especially a part I know quite well.

I will skip the details, but long story short, that region either had civil wars or crusade, with one leading to another and back and phases of discord and reconciliation. Thing is, you could basically set your clock and calendar based on that, because the "tides" here were definitely not random. Too much power, in desperate need to vent it somehow, internal or external, doesn't matter.

The important part why I bring this up, has been the ability to transit from Civil War to Crusade in the blink of an eye.
This bugs me a bit about all arguments when it comes to Procer, either use the full package or refrain from using the names and hinting at the underlying system, but not pulling thru with it.

[lord_khaine]

The important part why I bring this up, has been the ability to transit from Civil War to Crusade in the blink of an eye.
This bugs me a bit about all arguments when it comes to Procer, either use the full package or refrain from using the names and hinting at the underlying system, but not pulling thru with it.

Perhaps the presence of a named has allowed from a smoother transition from "fighting amoung ourself" to "oh look! a common enemy!" ?

[Florian]

Perhaps the presence of a named has allowed from a smoother transition from "fighting amoung ourself" to "oh look! a common enemy!" ?

I think you misunderstood me there. The regions I have in mind experienced a near constant state of warfare. Their whole economy was build around that and they needed the constant state of "bleeding" to keep their stability.
They could instantaneously switch from "civil war" to unified "crusades" when an outside threat was declared to be the enemy, the political landscape was fluid enough to allow for that instant transit and change of loyalties, even with no Named present.

[VexingVision]

This month-long break is absolutely killing me. The Guide has been my personal highlight of the day.

To tide things over, can you recommend similar web novels out there?


I'm already reading The Gods Are Bastards, Wandering Inn and Mother of Learning.

I stopped reading Ward, though I finished all of his other works.

[GrayDeath]

Nothing I have read really fits the mold of "Semi Young Adult Fantasy running on Tropes where Good and Evil are just different in regards to pulbicity and management", no.

But if you want a look at another long running story with a very...shall we say morally different protagonist, you might enjoy "With This Ring", even if its a Fanfiction and not an original work, the daily update for 3+ years alone is noteworthy enough. ;)

[lord_khaine]

A quick little debate topic then.
Lets leave the redemption topic behind. Because thats just an excuse for a massive flamewar.

But do people think Akua were genuine, when she said she wanted to try and chance.
And had grown tired of the wastelands constant backstabbery philosophy?
Or is it just a massive feint?

[Tyndmyr]

This month-long break is absolutely killing me. The Guide has been my personal highlight of the day.

To tide things over, can you recommend similar web novels out there?


I'm already reading The Gods Are Bastards, Wandering Inn and Mother of Learning.

I stopped reading Ward, though I finished all of his other works.

The Metropolitan Man is delightful, though short.

Unsong is a fun, crazy read.

How to Avoid Death on a Daily Basis is interesting for a bit, but ultimately sorta went off the rails so far as I was concerned.

I'm still reading Ward, but it's a good bit more of a slog than Worm was. The Action/reflection ratio/cycles are all out of whack. There are interesting bits, but overall...well, it's a slog.

I'm also finding myself in need of new books, got any others to suggest?

[Rynjin]

I'm still reading Ward, but it's a good bit more of a slog than Worm was. The Action/reflection ratio/cycles are all out of whack. There are interesting bits, but overall...well, it's a slog.

It's gotten better recently, at least. The way the plot is going has the potential to be engaging. It's just kinda sad that the story only gets interesting when the protags of the previous book get involved...

[Tyndmyr]

Yeah, all the bits I'm most excited for are leftover bits of the previous bits. A mention of Sleeper? I MUST KNOW MORE. I couldn't care less about hookline and sinker, though, or most of the other new antagonists.

[Florian]

A quick little debate topic then.
Lets leave the redemption topic behind. Because thats just an excuse for a massive flamewar.

But do people think Akua were genuine, when she said she wanted to try and chance.
And had grown tired of the wastelands constant backstabbery philosophy?
Or is it just a massive feint?

Makes me thing of Natasha/Black Widow.

[tyckspoon]

But do people think Akua were genuine, when she said she wanted to try and chance.
And had grown tired of the wastelands constant backstabbery philosophy?
Or is it just a massive feint?

I think she sincerely has decided that 'iron sharpens iron' is a losing idea, because she had been handed several decisive defeats by people who very openly reject that idea. She'd never struck me as somebody who was actually philosophically inclined toward that concept as being best or otherwise invested in it - she did it because she'd been raised to believe that was the way to achieve power and influence, and she was good enough at it to make it work up until it was bought crashing down on her.

[Cikomyr]

I think she sincerely has decided that 'iron sharpens iron' is a losing idea, because she had been handed several decisive defeats by people who very openly reject that idea. She'd never struck me as somebody who was actually philosophically inclined toward that concept as being best or otherwise invested in it - she did it because she'd been raised to believe that was the way to achieve power and influence, and she was good enough at it to make it work up until it was bought crashing down on her.

She wants to win.
She realized Good is given victory on a platter by default.
Conclusion --> join good

[lord_khaine]

She realized Good is given victory on a platter by default.

Thats just provenly false. Cat, Black, The Tyrant, The Dead King, has repeatedly demonstrated that its not the case.

And thinking even briefly about it would also explain the reason for why it cant be the case.
This is a contest between two cosmic forces. If one held the upper hand in some way, then Good would have won ages ago.
With Evil likely picked up its toys to go home and sulk.

Instead the contest have carried on for so long that certain roles and names have managed to grind groves in the fabric of fate/destiny.
That means the sides are almost perfectly balanced.

[Tyndmyr]

Thats just provenly false. Cat, Black, The Tyrant, The Dead King, has repeatedly demonstrated that its not the case.

And thinking even briefly about it would also explain the reason for why it cant be the case.
This is a contest between two cosmic forces. If one held the upper hand in some way, then Good would have won ages ago.
With Evil likely picked up its toys to go home and sulk.

Instead the contest have carried on for so long that certain roles and names have managed to grind groves in the fabric of fate/destiny.
That means the sides are almost perfectly balanced.

The side of good does not always win, but it relies a great deal more on heavenly intervention, and a good deal less on the individual. Yes, the sides may, in the long run, be perfectly balanced(possibly with the aid or exception of the Bard, depending on her long term aim), but the expectations of the heroes and villains are not equal.

Which means that she can indeed gain power by perverting the narrative to her advantage. This principle has already been illustrated before.