The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 2 of 37 FirstFirst 12345678910111227 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 1095
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Just started reading, but I definitely like this.
    Kinda reminds me of Worm mixed with Skullduggery Pleasant.

    Which probably doesn't bode well now that I think about it...

    I would say Catherine might want to learn to cut back on the snark, but her mentor seems to like it.
    And is hardly any better.
    He can afford it though.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Besides, the whole scene with Lone Swordsman and the rebels would loose something if she didn't mouth off.

    Also, I love how this describes the weapon of a hero:
    Quote Originally Posted by chapter 12
    The strange sword scored a long gash across her face, ripping away the black veil. It sung when it drew blood, letting out a loud keen as the edge of the metal flashed red.
    Tells you all you need to know, really.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")



  2. - Top - End - #32
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Spoiler
    Show

    Because Good, as mentioned, cheats. It's never meant to be a level playing field, Good is always intended to triumph over Evil in the end. That's why heroic stories feature things like plucky farm-boys finding magic swords in stones, it's an indelible part of the Heroic legend to be getting extranormal support. Hence Black's 'Rage Against The Heavens/Hells' monologue, he's pissed that the game was stacked against him from the beginning, and the result is 'if they're already cheating, I'm going to cheat too' - in his case, by knocking off potential Heroes pre-emptively before they're in a position to benefit from their deific sponsors.
    Spoiler
    Show
    The problem from Black's perspective is that the constant struggle between the two sides produces an unending and inefficient churn of apocalyptic horrors. Good, due to its nature, never lasts. Evil, on the other hand, can last for millennia, but is always toppled by Good in the end. The solution to the mess the world is in requires solutions that will take hundreds of years to apply. Therefore Evil is the only side capable of breaking the cycle. And inevitably, when Evil is trying to do so, Good (and sometimes rival Evil) shows up to poop in the punch bowl.

    It's a neat narrative point in the story that Evil, at its most effective, very much approximates Good's ideals. The opposition of the two sides closely approximates the axiom of perfect (Good) being the enemy of good enough (competent Evil). Catherine, for her part, has tried repeatedly to compromise with Good, including offering to abdicate in such a way that her homeland didn't collapse into a bloody anarchy and get trampled under a crusade. Good wants that bloody collapse to occur so that it can create a less flawed reality afterward. The choir of Mercy has wholeheartedly accepted that the End Justifies the Means, yet somehow remains Good -- literally because they're on the side of the angels.

    There is some truth to Evil holding the initial advantage. The Tyrant games this repeatedly to his advantage. Evil also has some incredibly impressive tools in its box (Diabolist and Warlock are both very adept at using Hell to get what they want). The problem here is that such escalation inevitably just makes more disasters and produces cadres of young raging types brandishing swords made from angel feathers.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Leewei View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    The problem from Black's perspective is that the constant struggle between the two sides produces an unending and inefficient churn of apocalyptic horrors. Good, due to its nature, never lasts. Evil, on the other hand, can last for millennia, but is always toppled by Good in the end. The solution to the mess the world is in requires solutions that will take hundreds of years to apply. Therefore Evil is the only side capable of breaking the cycle. And inevitably, when Evil is trying to do so, Good (and sometimes rival Evil) shows up to poop in the punch bowl.

    It's a neat narrative point in the story that Evil, at its most effective, very much approximates Good's ideals. The opposition of the two sides closely approximates the axiom of perfect (Good) being the enemy of good enough (competent Evil). Catherine, for her part, has tried repeatedly to compromise with Good, including offering to abdicate in such a way that her homeland didn't collapse into a bloody anarchy and get trampled under a crusade. Good wants that bloody collapse to occur so that it can create a less flawed reality afterward. The choir of Mercy has wholeheartedly accepted that the End Justifies the Means, yet somehow remains Good -- literally because they're on the side of the angels.

    There is some truth to Evil holding the initial advantage. The Tyrant games this repeatedly to his advantage. Evil also has some incredibly impressive tools in its box (Diabolist and Warlock are both very adept at using Hell to get what they want). The problem here is that such escalation inevitably just makes more disasters and produces cadres of young raging types brandishing swords made from angel feathers.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Yeah, it's definitely a self-defeating cycle. I was just disputing the initial argument that Black was a hypocrite. He got to his overwhelmingly dominant position the hard way, overcoming the slanted playing field against him. So he's not exactly sympathetic towards Heroes who didn't have to earn their power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Titan in the Playground
     
    lord_khaine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Spoiler
    Show


    Because Good, as mentioned, cheats. It's never meant to be a level playing field, Good is always intended to triumph over Evil in the end. That's why heroic stories feature things like plucky farm-boys finding magic swords in stones, it's an indelible part of the Heroic legend to be getting extranormal support. Hence Black's 'Rage Against The Heavens/Hells' monologue, he's pissed that the game was stacked against him from the beginning, and the result is 'if they're already cheating, I'm going to cheat too' - in his case, by knocking off potential Heroes pre-emptively before they're in a position to benefit from their deific sponsors.
    Yeah, it's definitely a self-defeating cycle. I was just disputing the initial argument that Black was a hypocrite. He got to his overwhelmingly dominant position the hard way, overcoming the slanted playing field against him. So he's not exactly sympathetic towards Heroes who didn't have to earn their power.
    No.. i will continue to claim Black is an extreme hypocrite. The playing field he overcame was not slanted. It was as even as things are likely to get.
    His initial fight were internally, with among other things the former black knight. Good was not even in the picture there.

    And goods role is ever reactionary. Evil rise up. And does something stupidly awful. Like create an army of invisible tigers. Or try and unify a group of citystates under a mad Tyrant. And a group of inexperienced heroes are then send against someone who by then are already an established villain with a solid grasp of their power. So they are then given minor things to even the scales a bit.

    Because as a villain he already have solid advantages. Unlike heroes he does not age. He is always at his prime.
    And in general it seems like villains have a much higher power level.

    We almost had to reach the end of the story so far, before a pair of retired heroes were brought out that could even somewhat match the calamities in raw force.
    And while the Sword Saint were insanely badass, far above any other named melee fighter we had seen so far. Then she were also limited by her age weakening, and reducing her endurance.
    Where the Pilgrim meanwhile, seemed to have another set of story based limitations, set by his role as the wise mentor.




    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Spoiler
    Show





    No.. i will continue to claim Black is an extreme hypocrite. The playing field he overcame was not slanted. It was as even as things are likely to get.
    His initial fight were internally, with among other things the former black knight. Good was not even in the picture there.



    Spoiler
    Show

    Your focus is too narrow. Stop looking at Black's attitude from the perspective of the reader, where the world doesn't exist until the Prologue starts, and from his internal viewpoint where he's born into a world designed to make Good win over Evil every time in the end. His personal struggle was against other Evils - but his entire nation, everyone he knows and is friends with (And most people he hates) are stuck as the losers in a rigged game. Their victories are hollow because they will always be temporary, and the opposition gets free handicaps no matter how far in the red they are to ensure it ends up that way. Is he right? Not really. Is he a hypocrite? No, he's only doing to the Heroes on a personal level what the Gods have been doing to everyone Evil for centuries. His complaints aren't about him personally, they're about the entire system he's trapped in. The reason Black is who he is is that unlike every other Evil person in the world except Malina and the other Calamities, he takes the long view and considers the benefit of his nation above himself.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2018-10-20 at 08:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Titan in the Playground
     
    lord_khaine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Spoiler
    Show

    No.. my focus is as specific as it needs be. Because this is specifically about Black. And his hyprocrasy.
    You do not get to bitch and moan about the game being unfair, when you yourself are cheating more than anyone else in it.
    The sword saint did not personally come and nib Black in the bud. But he has been killing people with the mere potential to become a hero.

    And i also thing its strange to call the game rigged just because each side plays by a different set of rules.
    Yes good always triump in the end. Thats because the end is defined by good triumping. And then retiring for their happily ever after.
    When evil win meanwhile, they get to keep playing, and everyone then has to suffer of a decade of darkness or so, while a new crop of heroes are prepared.

    And so of course said heroes need some sort of edge to make it even close to a fair fight.
    Where we can see from Black's bodycount, and for that matter also Cat, that the assistance given is fairly minor.


    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Troll in the Playground
     
    druid91's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Lemuria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Spoiler
    Show

    No.. my focus is as specific as it needs be. Because this is specifically about Black. And his hyprocrasy.
    You do not get to bitch and moan about the game being unfair, when you yourself are cheating more than anyone else in it.
    The sword saint did not personally come and nib Black in the bud. But he has been killing people with the mere potential to become a hero.

    And i also thing its strange to call the game rigged just because each side plays by a different set of rules.
    Yes good always triump in the end. Thats because the end is defined by good triumping. And then retiring for their happily ever after.
    When evil win meanwhile, they get to keep playing, and everyone then has to suffer of a decade of darkness or so, while a new crop of heroes are prepared.

    And so of course said heroes need some sort of edge to make it even close to a fair fight.
    Where we can see from Black's bodycount, and for that matter also Cat, that the assistance given is fairly minor.


    Spoiler
    Show
    A new hero, allowed to escape once got the mystical ability of being unkillable. The lone swordsman and crew almost killed Warlock and then still managed to escape the city long enough to be a pain in the rear for the rest of the Arc. Theif stole an entire fleet of ships The Lone Swordsman came back from the dead if killed and had a magical sword that would cut through anything. Heroes aspects are typically responsive. They counter the abilities of the Villain they are meant to defeat. Meanwhile Villains usually get a standard powerset and then have to build everything themselves.

    And, as evidenced by the story. Evil may be evil, but Good isn't good. Good, in universe simply means being willing to be the mindless slaves of the God's Above. The God's below might tend to pick jerks for their champions. But in the end it's like a game where one side builds for RP, Evil, and the other side looks at what the other side has built and minmaxes to counter it.

    And no, the heroes are not solely reactionary as evidenced by the current Crusade Arc.

    Mind you, Black and the Calamities are the most successful Villains in generations despite being the weakest villains in generations. Why? Because they go in knowing the game is rigged and cheat right back.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarZero View Post
    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

    Non est salvatori salvator, neque defensori dominus, nec pater nec mater, nihil supernum.

    Torumekian knight Avatar by Licoot.

    Note to self: Never get involved in an ethics thread again...Especially if I'm defending the empire.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Spoiler
    Show
    I don't see how Black could be a hypocrite. He's simply overpowering and outmaneuvering his enemies. He does this knowing full well that if he doesn't, he'll be dead within a handful of years, and Praes will be right back in the miserable cycle of war and hunger.

    Black is not at all above stacking the deck against the Heroes, but that is simply him exercising his power and his knowledge of the game. Good has a knack for winning through divine intervention, in spite of a Hero blundering repeatedly. Black sees the game as biased because only one side gets to win by being sloppy.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Titan in the Playground
     
    lord_khaine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Spoiler
    Show

    A new hero, allowed to escape once got the mystical ability of being unkillable. The lone swordsman and crew almost killed Warlock and then still managed to escape the city long enough to be a pain in the rear for the rest of the Arc. Theif stole an entire fleet of ships The Lone Swordsman came back from the dead if killed and had a magical sword that would cut through anything. Heroes aspects are typically responsive. They counter the abilities of the Villain they are meant to defeat. Meanwhile Villains usually get a standard powerset and then have to build everything themselves.
    What does all of this have to do with anything
    To start with there is no such thing as being unkillable. Only harder to kill than normal. But recent fight shows even that has a limit.
    And turning things around, Warlock fought an entire team of heroes on his own, killed one and send the rest running. Thief only really has that trick of taking stuff.
    Even her hide ability has been shown cant fool assasin. A normal mage defeated her in direct combat. So far villains have been shown to be far, far stronger than the heroes.
    The only real exceptions being the retired heroes who have first now begun crawling out of retirement.

    And, as evidenced by the story. Evil may be evil, but Good isn't good. Good, in universe simply means being willing to be the mindless slaves of the God's Above. The God's below might tend to pick jerks for their champions. But in the end it's like a game where one side builds for RP, Evil, and the other side looks at what the other side has built and minmaxes to counter it.
    Hmm.. can see its going to be hard finding anything resembling an actual debate on the matter. With that degree of bias. Mindless slaves, really?
    Also no, its more like a game where one has a level advantage of 8-9 levels, but as reigning champions then need to deal with the disadvantage of having your build known as the next serie of challengers are assembled.
    I am shocked at how often it seems to be glossed over, that good champions retire after they win. Evil ones stick around until they are defeated. Of course that means they need to run by different rules to avoid a constant one-sided stomp.

    And no, the heroes are not solely reactionary as evidenced by the current Crusade Arc.
    Actually it kinda is. Its heroes being gathered to deal with a Villain Queen who have risen to power.
    But the important part is again, those heroes are not gathered before said villain is established.
    Its the same with the mad Tyrant kid. By the time heroes were send after him, he had been allowed to gather enough power to fend all of them off on his own.

    Mind you, Black and the Calamities are the most successful Villains in generations despite being the weakest villains in generations. Why? Because they go in knowing the game is rigged and cheat right back.
    No, Black is not as strong when it comes to raw power as former Black Knights have been. Because he does not fully immerse himself in his role.
    But he still posses more than enough skill and experience to compensate, as we have seen in his fight with junior heroes.
    And the rest of the Calamities have earned their title from being monstrously strong. Warlock alone is more or less a walking doomsday weapon.
    While Captain where litterally a monster who ate a.. demigod? for a power boost.

    Point being, the game is -not- rigged. Its set up move towards equilibrium.

    When good heroes are dominant, they begins to grow older, and are eventually forced to retire.
    When evil heroes are dominant, they remain at their prime, but need to deal with younger heroes tailored to fight them.

    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    I'm up to CH 6. How many of these spoilers can I look at?

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    I'd suggest reading through the end of book 1 before reading what I've spoilered up to now.
    Last edited by Leewei; 2018-10-22 at 12:35 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Undead Suicide Goats sounds like a great name for a band...
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")



  13. - Top - End - #43
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Leewei View Post
    I'd suggest reading through the end of book 1 before reading what I've spoilered up to now.
    I'd suggest book 2 at least, there are some severe spoilers for characters that haven't even appeared by chapter 6 in those spoilers.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    I read through the first book. I don't usually enjoy stories about Villains or "good is dumb" but I thought I'd give it a try. The writing is passable, but it's definitely a young adult web novel. It lacks polish....but given the genre I can't hold that against it too much. I didn't realize how pretentious this paragraph was until I'd already written it.

    Is this translated from another language? Because there are some very basic mistakes that occur in almost every chapter and translation issues would explain it.

    Spoiler: Impressions on book 1.
    Show
    I like how the protagonist actually struggles with her darker nature.
    It's hard to root for a straight up villain, so having her be conflicted helps with that. It does get harder to root for her as time goes along and she falls more and more into villainy.

    It's easy to write a story about good people being small minded and dumb if you actually write them all that way. We've only met one hero in the story so far, but he acts more like a villain than a hero and he (and his allies) are extremely stupid. There are good arguments to be had about the villains approach vs the heroes but the book isn't making them because the only hero character is too stupid, evil, and ineffective. Maybe this will get better as we meet more heroes in future books, but given the entire premise of this series is how good is dumb and evil is practical I doubt it.

    I do like the fact that she's incompetent at times and only succeeds because of help or dumb luck. Too many of these stories fall into the trap of Mary Sue protagonists.

    The humor is a complete miss for me. Maybe that's because the thread has spoiled some of the supposedly funnier moments so I saw them coming though.


    Overall, it's a mixed bag. I think I'll read the second book and see how it goes from there.

    Edit: Made the mistake of looking at the character page and now I apparently know every single character who lives and dies. That....that's just great. I think I won't bother reading further after all.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2018-10-22 at 09:21 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Halfway through book 3 and loving it.

    Emperor Traitorous gets me to giggle every single time.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Halfway through book 3 and loving it.

    Emperor Traitorous gets me to giggle every single time.
    With a name like that he's clearly a trustworthy man.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")



  17. - Top - End - #47
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    With a name like that he's clearly a trustworthy man.
    So brilliant he even betrayed himself!

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    I just read through the whole spoilered argument.

    Spoiler: My mostly worthless opinions.
    Show
    I very much agree with Khaine that evil has the deck stacked in their favor and they're awful hypocrites. That said...they're evil characters in a story so of course they're awful hypocrites. They would probably even admit it. In a story where the genocidal mass murderers who consort with demons are the protagonists...it's hard to get too mad about a little hypocrisy.


  19. - Top - End - #49
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Emperor Traitorous gets me to giggle every single time.
    It's worth noting that Villains have a decided tendency to be far more memorable than Heroes. Many of them have very well-developed gallows humor. Traitorous was certainly one to leave no back (not even his own) unstabbed.
    Last edited by Leewei; 2018-10-23 at 11:38 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    DE Traitorous is fun, but I also enjoy the bits from DE Irritant, The Oddly Successful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    They both had a certain affinity for Gambit Pileup, in their own special way.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    DE Traitorous is fun, but I also enjoy the bits from DE Irritant, The Oddly Successful.
    I also enjoy the crazy general who inverts quotes from The Art of War.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Just going by the names Dread Emperor Benevolent is probably the scariest of the lot.
    I mean, at least with the other guys you get a rough idea what to expect.

    Also, it's kinda amusing how offended Squire is by her nemesis on the side of angels* assembling a party and committing borderline villainous acts.

    *I refuse to call them good.
    Not until they act the part.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

    Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
    (Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")



  24. - Top - End - #54
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I just read through the whole spoilered argument.

    Spoiler: My mostly worthless opinions.
    Show
    I very much agree with Khaine that evil has the deck stacked in their favor and they're awful hypocrites. That said...they're evil characters in a story so of course they're awful hypocrites. They would probably even admit it. In a story where the genocidal mass murderers who consort with demons are the protagonists...it's hard to get too mad about a little hypocrisy.

    Spoiler
    Show
    I mean, they pretty explicitly don't. Evil ALWAYS loses, eventually. It's an immutable fact of reality, akin to the existence of gravity. The whole universe runs on story logic.

    The only reason the Calamities and the Woe are so successful is they're a different breed of Evil that's more of a greyscale; the gods (Above or Below) don't seem to know what to do with them since they ACTIVELY REJECT a lot of the inherent advantages Evil has ("the first stage of my plan always succeeds", for instance) in order to also eliminate the even harsher drawbacks ("I will die instantly after delivering a monologue or witty rejoinder").

    In response the Gods Above created Hanno, the White Knight and Heroes like him to re-level the playing field...but also aren't above tipping the scales in other fashions, like giving Heroes powers tailor made to counter the Villains they're sent to fight (see Hanno again, whose ENTIRE POWERSET exists as a counter to Black's preferred tactics).

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Troll in the Playground
     
    druid91's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Lemuria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Spoiler
    Show



    What does all of this have to do with anything
    To start with there is no such thing as being unkillable. Only harder to kill than normal. But recent fight shows even that has a limit.
    And turning things around, Warlock fought an entire team of heroes on his own, killed one and send the rest running. Thief only really has that trick of taking stuff.
    Even her hide ability has been shown cant fool assasin. A normal mage defeated her in direct combat. So far villains have been shown to be far, far stronger than the heroes.
    The only real exceptions being the retired heroes who have first now begun crawling out of retirement.



    Hmm.. can see its going to be hard finding anything resembling an actual debate on the matter. With that degree of bias. Mindless slaves, really?
    Also no, its more like a game where one has a level advantage of 8-9 levels, but as reigning champions then need to deal with the disadvantage of having your build known as the next serie of challengers are assembled.
    I am shocked at how often it seems to be glossed over, that good champions retire after they win. Evil ones stick around until they are defeated. Of course that means they need to run by different rules to avoid a constant one-sided stomp.



    Actually it kinda is. Its heroes being gathered to deal with a Villain Queen who have risen to power.
    But the important part is again, those heroes are not gathered before said villain is established.
    Its the same with the mad Tyrant kid. By the time heroes were send after him, he had been allowed to gather enough power to fend all of them off on his own.



    No, Black is not as strong when it comes to raw power as former Black Knights have been. Because he does not fully immerse himself in his role.
    But he still posses more than enough skill and experience to compensate, as we have seen in his fight with junior heroes.
    And the rest of the Calamities have earned their title from being monstrously strong. Warlock alone is more or less a walking doomsday weapon.
    While Captain where litterally a monster who ate a.. demigod? for a power boost.

    Point being, the game is -not- rigged. Its set up move towards equilibrium.

    When good heroes are dominant, they begins to grow older, and are eventually forced to retire.
    When evil heroes are dominant, they remain at their prime, but need to deal with younger heroes tailored to fight them.

    Spoiler
    Show
    To quote Dread Empress Malicia, "Evil Does Not Win Wars."

    You're literally looking at the Second time in Millennia that Evil has had the standing it's had in Calernia and declaring that Evil is OP Hypocrites because they did what it took to win for once. Take that in for a moment. Prior to Dread Empress Triumphant, who promptly died afterwards, Praes had never won. And After Dread Empress Triumphant, Praes never won again for THOUSANDS OF YEARS until the Calamities came along. They invade other nations because they're starving because they live in a literal wasteland. Their culture is a mixed up mashed wreck of former Miezan slaves. And once every so often they build a giant flying fortress and sacrifice thousands of people against the heroes because 'Hey, that's less mouths to feed.'

    It wasn't until Black realized that if they actually took Callow they could just feed the people rather than cull them every so often. Listen to what Hakram and the other Orcs have to say about the way things were BEFORE the Reforms.

    And no, the Crusade isn't the 'Hero's gathering to deal with a Villain queen' It would have happened a long time ago but Malicia was fighting it off for decades. The Grey Pilgrim says as much in his first chat with Catherine.

    The current state of affairs is not business as usual for Villainy in Calernia. The Current State of Affairs is Villainy raised up on the fruits of the Black Knights Labor.

    Yes. When the Black Knight says that one half of the world was being set up as props for the other half, he wasn't lying. It's just you don't see the story until well after he's taken a torch to that system. That's WHY the old Monster's on both sides are coming out. Because the Calamities broke the 'balance' of good and evil. The balance that had evil getting punched in the face with OP hax powers handed to farmboys.

    Also, The Lone Swordsman was unkillable until Catherine TOOK his ability to 'Rise'.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarZero View Post
    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

    Non est salvatori salvator, neque defensori dominus, nec pater nec mater, nihil supernum.

    Torumekian knight Avatar by Licoot.

    Note to self: Never get involved in an ethics thread again...Especially if I'm defending the empire.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Spoiler: responses.
    Show
    On a long enough scale Evil always loses. By the same logic Good also always loses on a long enough scale. You're just choosing to cherry pick the times Evil loses to make your point, but considering they wouldn't have anything to lose without Good losing in the first place....it's a non point. Overall the score is always going to be tied in the grand scheme of things. That's just how it works.

    How many heroes have Black and the others killed now? Hundreds? Thousands? Law of averages says that eventually they'd run into some heroes that would give their powersets trouble even if the "Good" gods weren't stepping in.

    Being unkillable until you're killed isn't a particularly compelling argument for being overpowered.

    Also, it's really hard to take the main conceit of the story seriously when none of the "Good" people actually act good at all. The story is less "Good vs Evil" and more "competent jerks vs idiot jerks."

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Rynjin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Spoiler: responses.
    Show
    On a long enough scale Evil always loses. By the same logic Good also always loses on a long enough scale. You're just choosing to cherry pick the times Evil loses to make your point, but considering they wouldn't have anything to lose without Good losing in the first place....it's a non point. Overall the score is always going to be tied in the grand scheme of things. That's just how it works.

    How many heroes have Black and the others killed now? Hundreds? Thousands? Law of averages says that eventually they'd run into some heroes that would give their powersets trouble even if the "Good" gods weren't stepping in.

    Being unkillable until you're killed isn't a particularly compelling argument for being overpowered.

    Also, it's really hard to take the main conceit of the story seriously when none of the "Good" people actually act good at all. The story is less "Good vs Evil" and more "competent jerks vs idiot jerks."
    I think the thing you're missing is that

    Spoiler
    Show
    Praes is not, in the grand scheme, IMPORTANT in the slightest. The rest of Calernia (which is only one continent in a world where the battle between Good and Evil has been OVERWHELMINGLY decided in favor of Good everywhere else) views it as pretty much a joke.

    Before the current Crusade there wasn't a concerted effort to stamp out Praes from any of the Good powers because they were too busy with mortal wars and the larger, more terrifying conflicts with forces like The Dead King and the Chain of Hunger. The only reason Praes won for as long as it did was, in short, that Black manipulated the ancient story of Callow being invaded for its resources...and then KEPT GOING instead of pulling out like Praes has always done before, choosing instead to corrupt/reform Callow into a new nation.

    Even that was not considered a big deal; nobody on Calernia gave enough of a **** about fantasy Poland to try and take it back, so the Calamities were able to slaughter or turn nascent Heroes before they became a threat. Catherine in particular was a candidate for Hero status before Black got to her.

    It was only when Akua started mimicking the old Villains and slaughtered 100, 000 people in a single night that the rest of Calernia woke up like they'd been slapped in the face; it was only then they realized that Praes was a true threat again and should be dealt with (and as a bonus, Procer gets to conquer and rape Callow again; win-win).

    In short the time that Evil won in this scenario is beyond abnormal. Not just for Calernia, but the cosmos as a whole. The general state of affairs is "Villain first stage succeeds, stopped last minute by plucky Heroes who coincidentally have abilities tailored to overcome all challenges set before them", which the Calamities subvert by using heroic tactics and story-fu to skew battles in their favor.

    EVEN THEN, a tiny mistake is enough to end a powerful Villain; Captain was baited into a trap and killed with little fanfare for her importance because of that. The universe is inherently stacked against Evil in any conflict, because stories that end in "and the Villain is defeated, everyone lives happily ever after" are the most common, and even Pyrrhic victories are still villainous defeats in the grand scheme.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Spoiler
    Show

    Is it confirmed somewhere in Book 4 that Good is overwhelmingly dominant on the other continents? The only cultural mention I can think of to this point (just starting book 4) is Yuan Tai, which is apparently Not-China, and is mentioned as having a Hero and Villain sharing equal authority in its leadership.

    The Gnomes come from over the seas, at least, and they certainly don't seem to care about the Good/Evil dynamic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Spoiler
    Show

    Is it confirmed somewhere in Book 4 that Good is overwhelmingly dominant on the other continents? The only cultural mention I can think of to this point (just starting book 4) is Yuan Tai, which is apparently Not-China, and is mentioned as having a Hero and Villain sharing equal authority in its leadership.

    The Gnomes come from over the seas, at least, and they certainly don't seem to care about the Good/Evil dynamic.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Very little of the rest of the world is shown so far. The Gnomes are considered akin to cosmic horrors. The Dwarves bearded apocalypse have their own Named as well, but seem unconcerned with Hero/Villain status. Drow have a superficial similarity to Fae, with a vampiric twist. The world apparently is chock full of fantastic humanoid species, many of whom are operating on blue and orange morality.
    Last edited by Leewei; 2018-10-24 at 10:20 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Leewei View Post
    Spoiler
    Show
    Very little of the rest of the world is shown so far. The Gnomes are considered akin to cosmic horrors. The Dwarves bearded apocalypse have their own Named as well, but seem unconcerned with Hero/Villain status. Drow have a superficial similarity to Fae, with a vampiric twist. The world apparently is chock full of fantastic humanoid species, many of whom are operating on blue and orange morality.
    Spoiler
    Show

    There's also the Giants, now that I think of it. They're even on the same continent and we haven't seen a hint of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •