A Practical Guide to Evil

[Calemyr]

It was glorious indeed.

Spoiler: Treachery

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Hmm.. im not certain Malicia is doing anything in that regard. She has so far only behaved like a typical manipulative villain.
I also dont think Saint fits into this catagory. Slaying the corupt leader of a good faction that noone else could touch is definitly a heroic story.
And he were definitly a monster at the stage when Saint fixed stuff. He had freaking people pulled off the street to fuel whatever the alchemist did.

Spoiler: Treachery

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Malicia has fallen off the wagon, yes, but she wasn't a "classic" villain until she was cornered by the inevitable Crusade. Like Black, she was focused on trying to "fix" Evil, to find a way to adapt their side into something that actually worked. She, too, holds to the "End of the Age of Wonders" philosophy, and strives to hold her Empire together through pragmatic rather than villainous ways. Most importantly, however, is the fact that she allowed Black to operate as he has. The Black Knight couldn't have achieved any of his advancements without the Empress implicitly (and at times explicitly) backing him. Both of them fondly reminisce about the time they spent pre-coronation, talking about what was wrong with the Empire and how it could be fixed. Malicia may be the weakest of the "new breed", if you will, but she still is one.

As for Saint, I wasn't thinking about the alchemist story. She also stood in the throne room of Procer itself and pointedly informed the First Prince that she hoped the Crusade would allow her to burn Procer to the ground and watch as a purified kingdom rose from the ashes. Note that she did not see any problem with the "good" princes burning with the "bad" or the innocent deaths it would entail. Saint is a believer in "burning away the rot", without compromise or mercy, and serves as a champion of Good that could swap sides and few would notice the difference.

[The Glyphstone]

Saint has fought monsters so long that she has become one.

[lord_khaine]

Ahh.. Kairos in a nutshell

Spoiler

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“I think, Catherine,” Kairos Theodosian fondly said, “that you are lying through your teeth. But I still can’t tell, and so it seems were are still allies.”

Spoiler: Treachery

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Malicia has fallen off the wagon, yes, but she wasn't a "classic" villain until she was cornered by the inevitable Crusade. Like Black, she was focused on trying to "fix" Evil, to find a way to adapt their side into something that actually worked. She, too, holds to the "End of the Age of Wonders" philosophy, and strives to hold her Empire together through pragmatic rather than villainous ways. Most importantly, however, is the fact that she allowed Black to operate as he has. The Black Knight couldn't have achieved any of his advancements without the Empress implicitly (and at times explicitly) backing him. Both of them fondly reminisce about the time they spent pre-coronation, talking about what was wrong with the Empire and how it could be fixed. Malicia may be the weakest of the "new breed", if you will, but she still is one.

Im still not entirely sold on Malicia. Because i dont think we have seen anything to say she is more than a Pragmatic Mastermind.
Black is the one with the visions. And his plans and leadership has lead to Malicia's power base getting increasingly more powerful.
But she is also the one who randomly assasinated a number of Cat's friends. And allowed Diablorist to set up zombifying around 200.000 people.

As for Saint, I wasn't thinking about the alchemist story. She also stood in the throne room of Procer itself and pointedly informed the First Prince that she hoped the Crusade would allow her to burn Procer to the ground and watch as a purified kingdom rose from the ashes. Note that she did not see any problem with the "good" princes burning with the "bad" or the innocent deaths it would entail. Saint is a believer in "burning away the rot", without compromise or mercy, and serves as a champion of Good that could swap sides and few would notice the difference.

Thats because Saint is only called in when the rot is so bad that it cant be cured in any other way. Else it would be Pilgrim who where there and not her.
And i disagree, if you flipped Saint 180 degree's then she would look very weird indeed.
We would suddenly have a crusader who chased down the greatest Champions of Above with singleminded devotion, newer pausing to consider her own gain or advantages.
Heck, for that matter, a Crusade is already going to involve innocents death no matter how you cut it. But i think its quite unfair to hold her responsible like that to what could have been a bluff or a warning.

Saint has fought monsters so long that she has become one.

Hmm.. i think thats a bit unfair. She has fought monsters for so long that its the only thing she knows.
And she has been burned enough times in her war to no longer see compromises or negotiation as a viable solution.
Well, one can hardly blame her for that if she has earlier dealt with types like Kairos.

Spoiler: Rend

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“You die laughing,” the Skein hissed. “Or. You flee. Or. I am broken. Or. Everything burns. Or. Or. Why does it keep changing?”

Seems upon second reading, that its clear what breaks in the end.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Spoiler: Rend

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I'm thinking Kairos might be trying to Rend Neshamah himself via whatever channel he's using to talk through Skein. I doubt such a thing would really harm the Dead King but the backlash will probably incapacitate Skein and force Neshamah to either lean harder on the unfolding story or cut his losses and peace out.

[Forum Explorer]

I feel like the Crusade is messing with the Heroes. The old ones anyways.

The Pilgrim's role is to intervene before things get out of control. The Saint's role is to purge things when they've gone out of control. But neither of those applies to the Crusade. If the Crusade fizzled out, things wouldn't really get any worse. Well assuming that had happened before the Dead King showed up. Or that he'd be sent back as a result. So the heroes are acting as if they are in the same stories they've done a million times, but they aren't. Those same attitudes and expectations aren't useful and are sometimes actively harmful.

On a different note, I wouldn't say the Saint is a monster. I'd say she's a sword. Making herself a domain has likely had side effects, like Cat becoming Winter did. It likely effects her mindset and she sees everything from the perspective of a weapon. It might also be why she's always willing to allow Pilgrim to make the decisions.

[halfeye]

I'm wondering what the Wandering Bard is up to while all of this is going on.

[Aotrs Commander]

On a different note, I wouldn't say the Saint is a monster. I'd say she's a sword.

Dude, don't say that, I'm in the middle of a Pillars of Eternity 2 run and I picked up Modwyr, I don't need the image that idea conjures in my head...

[Forum Explorer]

Dude, don't say that, I'm in the middle of a Pillars of Eternity 2 run and I picked up Modwyr, I don't need the image that idea conjures in my head...

I haven't played Pillars of Eternity 2 yet, so I don't know what it is. However you are welcome for the horrifying image. Use them to booby trap your chocolate stash.

[Aotrs Commander]

I haven't played Pillars of Eternity 2 yet, so I don't know what it is. However you are welcome for the horrifying image. Use them to booby trap your chocolate stash.

She is a sword. That really wants you to... use her to, like, stab people and gets... Vocal about it when you, ah, do.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Small Slights

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Sve Noc, this has been an enjoyable encounter. Cat's plan to let Kairos be... we... Kairos, and then rob the Dead King of the one dead hero she actually respects. And apparently the Skein still has the presence of mind to, despite being horribly crippled and probably in intense pain, still be an effective obstacle.

And... ya know how some've been comparing Kairos to Joker? Turns out they were dead right, though not necessarily how they expected. Kairos is basically the Heath Ledger Joker, where it's not about winning so much as enjoying the struggle. He doesn't want to kill his enemies, even when they force him to use his trump cards, because corpses aren't any fun. So he doesn't kill, he just puts people in a position to die quicker so that he can... how did he put it again? Oh yes... "savor all those little emotions" found on the knife's edge. He is 110% the guy who wants to watch the world burn, and will happily play whatever part he needs to to prolong the fire.

[McNum]

Spoiler: Chapter 45

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And that is why you never should pick a fight with a Callowan.

Interesting to see what they'll do with all of this. Cat pulled a great one here, she even got a concession out of the Dead King along the way. But freeing King Fairfax and have him call in that there are still debts to be repaid, followed by the dead of Liesse getting back up is just brilliant. For what is mere death when it comes between a Callowan and their Long Price?

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

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I just realized that Cat had not heard of the book on how to manipulate situations as a hero rwo chapters prior, and Saint did not elucidate on it. Maybe Good being more collaborative just figured out the rules earlier so that is why they seemed to win constantly?

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Long Prices

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So Cat not only frees the Good King, she in the process captures a piece of Neshamah's essence and ransoms it for some good prizes (a three month reprieve from the fighting and assurances that Neshamah wouldn't kill Masego and Black out of spite. This doesn't resolve the fight, however, and freeing Cat to pull another madcap trick: using the Good King as a conduit for an army of angry shades. Not a bad show of fireworks for a Memorial Day.

The conversation between Neshamah and Cat (and then between the Good King and Cat later) got me wondering, though. It's painfully clear that Cat's intention is to be the eighth crown. She doesn't want the job, she fully understands that her role cannot be allowed to exceed her need, and she's already mentally setting up her heir. Of course, the clearer she makes this gambit, the more certain it becomes it won't turn out like that. I'm thinking it's very possible that Black will take that bullet for her. She's setting that story up, even if she doesn't realize it - she's been painting him as her father to add weight to his survival, but I think she hasn't considered that it also adds weight to his sacrifice, as if his pre-existing condition as "mentor figure ready to die" wasn't sufficient...

And thus Cat's plans fall to pieces, because she's left with a crown and Amadeus isn't. Praes continues to be a wildcard and she doesn't have another candidate to take it. Except for her, that is. I think the next leg of this story is going to be her taking the Tower for herself no matter how much she despises the concept, simply because it can't be left to its own devices. It's been foreshadowed enough, both by Akua and by her own ties to the Squire Name - Squire can go a lot of ways, apparently, and while she's effectively Nameless, she's not literally Nameless. I doubt that thread will be left hanging for the entire story.

Spoiler

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I just realized that Cat had not heard of the book on how to manipulate situations as a hero rwo chapters prior, and Saint did not elucidate on it. Maybe Good being more collaborative just figured out the rules earlier so that is why they seemed to win constantly?

Spoiler

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I don't think that's the case, I think evil loses even when it wins. Black is very clear in his resentment, that he feels that the game is rigged, and the two most effective Villains in recorded history either lost because they won too much (Triumphant) or failed to lose because they never really tried to win (Neshamah). Evil isn't allowed to win, even when people like Black pen the Evil Overlord list.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: Long Prices

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So Cat not only frees the Good King, she in the process captures a piece of Neshamah's essence and ransoms it for some good prizes (a three month reprieve from the fighting and assurances that Neshamah wouldn't kill Masego and Black out of spite. This doesn't resolve the fight, however, and freeing Cat to pull another madcap trick: using the Good King as a conduit for an army of angry shades. Not a bad show of fireworks for a Memorial Day.

The conversation between Neshamah and Cat (and then between the Good King and Cat later) got me wondering, though. It's painfully clear that Cat's intention is to be the eighth crown. She doesn't want the job, she fully understands that her role cannot be allowed to exceed her need, and she's already mentally setting up her heir. Of course, the clearer she makes this gambit, the more certain it becomes it won't turn out like that. I'm thinking it's very possible that Black will take that bullet for her. She's setting that story up, even if she doesn't realize it - she's been painting him as her father to add weight to his survival, but I think she hasn't considered that it also adds weight to his sacrifice, as if his pre-existing condition as "mentor figure ready to die" wasn't sufficient...

And thus Cat's plans fall to pieces, because she's left with a crown and Amadeus isn't. Praes continues to be a wildcard and she doesn't have another candidate to take it. Except for her, that is. I think the next leg of this story is going to be her taking the Tower for herself no matter how much she despises the concept, simply because it can't be left to its own devices. It's been foreshadowed enough, both by Akua and by her own ties to the Squire Name - Squire can go a lot of ways, apparently, and while she's effectively Nameless, she's not literally Nameless. I doubt that thread will be left hanging for the entire story.

Spoiler

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I don't think that's the case, I think evil loses even when it wins. Black is very clear in his resentment, that he feels that the game is rigged, and the two most effective Villains in recorded history either lost because they won too much (Triumphant) or failed to lose because they never really tried to win (Neshamah). Evil isn't allowed to win, even when people like Black pen the Evil Overlord list.

Spoiler

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That seems like a weird paradigm. By the argument that you have to conquer everything forever to win, Good has never won either despite numerous crusades and thousands of heroes. Black conquered and held Callow for decades, Neshamah has held his territory for millennia. Even the formation of the Empire is a win, there was a time before the Empire. Sve Noc became a god during the story we are reading.

Evil's problem is their goal is "utter subjugation of everything forever," at which point of course they lose. Black is a whiner.

[Anteros]

Spoiler

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That seems like a weird paradigm. By the argument that you have to conquer everything forever to win, Good has never won either despite numerous crusades and thousands of heroes. Black conquered and held Callow for decades, Neshamah has held his territory for millennia. Even the formation of the Empire is a win, there was a time before the Empire. Sve Noc became a god during the story we are reading.

Evil's problem is their goal is "utter subjugation of everything forever," at which point of course they lose. Black is a whiner.

Yeah, it seems clear that both sides get their share of victories and losses or else one side would be dominating the other by now. The whole "good always wins" thing that keeps popping up is nonsense.

[druid91]

Spoiler

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That seems like a weird paradigm. By the argument that you have to conquer everything forever to win, Good has never won either despite numerous crusades and thousands of heroes. Black conquered and held Callow for decades, Neshamah has held his territory for millennia. Even the formation of the Empire is a win, there was a time before the Empire. Sve Noc became a god during the story we are reading.

Evil's problem is their goal is "utter subjugation of everything forever," at which point of course they lose. Black is a whiner.

Spoiler

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I hardly think that's a 'Whining' thing. Just look at Calernia. Of the powers on the continent, most of them were Good until relatively recently. You had the Dread Empire of Praes, the Dead King, OCCASIONALLY Helike, Stygia, and Bellepheron. The Drow were too busy messing up Sve Noc's ascension to actually count as a real power.

Of those only the Dead King was the ONLY to make lasting gains. The others all acted as what amounted to saturday morning cartoon villains to serve as props to demonstrate goodness upon. Until the Calamities, and the Reforms allowed Callow to take over, which snowballed into the Dead King being unleashed, which then snowballed into the Drow being released from their murder-sacrifice loop.

This is the first time in decades that the forces of evil actually posed a threat to the established order. Also remember that at any point, should any of these powers grow too big for their britches, the kingdom under would demolish them.

[Calemyr]

Evil is allowed to survive, but never thrive. Praes is trapped in a perpetual spiral of war and starvation, to the point that the war is little more than an excuse to slaughter their own overpopulated numbers against the Callowans. Every time they claim Callow, it gets ripped from them right quick, and Black only managed to hold it for twenty years because he stole too many pages from Good's playbook, adopting justice and preservation of the masses as practical efforts, which dropped them down the heroic priority list and kept them from getting crushed by falling stars. The other evil kingdoms are either so turned inwards to be ineffective or swap sides more often than Kairos. The only one that thrives is a dead kingdom that survives simply by not exposing itself unless there is another evil to take the blame.

Put another way, Evil must be allowed to exist and even maintain strongholds in order for heroes to cast them down. They are allowed a very strict level of success, but the second they reach for anything, even just enough food to keep their people from starving, suddenly it become's Good's holy mission to smite their hand for their reach. They are slaves to this balance and it kills those with the perception to be aware of it. It's only a mercy that most Evil is too wrapped up in its own theatrics to realize that their campaigns only exist as a backdrop for heroes to shine. It still sneaks into their culture, though. Praesi folklore outright venerates villains for their achievements, not for lasting victories, because Villains are never allowed to keep what they kill.

Spoiler: Interlude: Repudiation (and a Farscape spoiler)

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I gotta admit, when I saw the word "Interlude" in the next chapter's title, my heart sank. Things were just getting really good! Do we have to step away to hear Juniper and Vivi angst over how they deal with their current situation? Or watch the two young Levantine heroes trade pillow talk in the infirmary?

And... I was wrong. So very, wonderfully wrong. An interlude that from the heroes' perspectives, as long price unleashes Hell upon the assembled devils. Sve Noc, it's satisfying to see Saint not only get blocked but forced to related to the one person she hates the most - someone that she, one of the foremost heroes on the continent, unquestioningly labels as the rising villain of their age. The fact that she can relate to something that outright scares her, relate to the point that she finds herself obligated to answer with honesty rather than a barbed threat...

And then there is Tariq. Alone, with Idrani. Oh, that is fun. It's not that he doesn't understand her, she's not complicated, there's just something about her he can't grasp. She's clearly perceptive and intelligent, and reads every question he asks like a book, but she's so open about it all. A villain is not supposed to be so disarmingly honest. At worst they should be like Cat, honest but guarded, using the truth like a dagger to pry open whatever gets in her way. He comments that he considered Black's crew to be anomalous, but they are dwarfed in comparison to what the Woe bring to the table.

Plus, there's the stories she tells. It really reminds me of an early part of season 4 of Farscape, where Scorpius (who has been out witted by the crew of Moya multiple times) is forced to work with thee heroes against a common threat. He has this big image in his mind about them, how they must be tactical masterminds with a genius that rivals his own, only to learn they are merely lucky idiots who only get by through a heavily exercised talent for improvisation and thinking on their feet. His reaction as this understanding sinks in is simply priceless, and it's much the same expression I have to imagine Tariq wearing in this Interlude as Idrani casually repaints his image of Cat from a world-breaking super-villain to a luckless girl pulled from disaster to disaster and only gets through alive by means of a little wit and a whole lot of brass.

[Tvtyrant]

Evil is allowed to survive, but never thrive. Praes is trapped in a perpetual spiral of war and starvation, to the point that the war is little more than an excuse to slaughter their own overpopulated numbers against the Callowans. Every time they claim Callow, it gets ripped from them right quick, and Black only managed to hold it for twenty years because he stole too many pages from Good's playbook, adopting justice and preservation of the masses as practical efforts, which dropped them down the heroic priority list and kept them from getting crushed by falling stars. The other evil kingdoms are either so turned inwards to be ineffective or swap sides more often than Kairos. The only one that thrives is a dead kingdom that survives simply by not exposing itself unless there is another evil to take the blame.

Put another way, Evil must be allowed to exist and even maintain strongholds in order for heroes to cast them down. They are allowed a very strict level of success, but the second they reach for anything, even just enough food to keep their people from starving, suddenly it become's Good's holy mission to smite their hand for their reach. They are slaves to this balance and it kills those with the perception to be aware of it. It's only a mercy that most Evil is too wrapped up in its own theatrics to realize that their campaigns only exist as a backdrop for heroes to shine. It still sneaks into their culture, though. Praesi folklore outright venerates villains for their achievements, not for lasting victories, because Villains are never allowed to keep what they kill.

Spoiler: Interlude: Repudiation (and a Farscape spoiler)

Show

I gotta admit, when I saw the word "Interlude" in the next chapter's title, my heart sank. Things were just getting really good! Do we have to step away to hear Juniper and Vivi angst over how they deal with their current situation? Or watch the two young Levantine heroes trade pillow talk in the infirmary?

And... I was wrong. So very, wonderfully wrong. An interlude that from the heroes' perspectives, as long price unleashes Hell upon the assembled devils. Sve Noc, it's satisfying to see Saint not only get blocked but forced to related to the one person she hates the most - someone that she, one of the foremost heroes on the continent, unquestioningly labels as the rising villain of their age. The fact that she can relate to something that outright scares her, relate to the point that she finds herself obligated to answer with honesty rather than a barbed threat...

And then there is Tariq. Alone, with Idrani. Oh, that is fun. It's not that he doesn't understand her, she's not complicated, there's just something about her he can't grasp. She's clearly perceptive and intelligent, and reads every question he asks like a book, but she's so open about it all. A villain is not supposed to be so disarmingly honest. At worst they should be like Cat, honest but guarded, using the truth like a dagger to pry open whatever gets in her way. He comments that he considered Black's crew to be anomalous, but they are dwarfed in comparison to what the Woe bring to the table.

Plus, there's the stories she tells. It really reminds me of an early part of season 4 of Farscape, where Scorpius (who has been out witted by the crew of Moya multiple times) is forced to work with thee heroes against a common threat. He has this big image in his mind about them, how they must be tactical masterminds with a genius that rivals his own, only to learn they are merely lucky idiots who only get by through a heavily exercised talent for improvisation and thinking on their feet. His reaction as this understanding sinks in is simply priceless, and it's much the same expression I have to imagine Tariq wearing in this Interlude as Idrani casually repaints his image of Cat from a world-breaking super-villain to a luckless girl pulled from disaster to disaster and only gets through alive by means of a little wit and a whole lot of brass.

The sole bastion of Good just underwent a nation shattering civil war and is utterly unprepared for a war with Evil as a unified force. The crusade lost to Praes and Callow, then got blindsided by the other two evil bastions invading. If Cat weren't really neutral Evil would be wrapping up this conflict right now, as it is two of the four evil factions have to side with Good to save it.

Even in your own spoiler the series has treated Evil people with just as much luck as Good people, the Woe win conflicts by blatant lies and stealing suns just as often as Good does. Even your argument about Evil needing to be there for Good to destroy works in reverse; Good acts as a ground for Evil to launch undead hordes on. Defining winning as destroying the other side is the source of Black's complaints; the moral forces want equilibrium punctuated by struggles. Neither side is ever going to win.

[Lord Raziere]

The sole bastion of Good just underwent a nation shattering civil war and is utterly unprepared for a war with Evil as a unified force. The crusade lost to Praes and Callow, then got blindsided by the other two evil bastions invading. If Cat weren't really neutral Evil would be wrapping up this conflict right now, as it is two of the four evil factions have to side with Good to save it.

Even in your own spoiler the series has treated Evil people with just as much luck as Good people, the Woe win conflicts by blatant lies and stealing suns just as often as Good does. Even your argument about Evil needing to be there for Good to destroy works in reverse; Good acts as a ground for Evil to launch undead hordes on. Defining winning as destroying the other side is the source of Black's complaints; the moral forces want equilibrium punctuated by struggles. Neither side is ever going to win.

It does seem odd that despite Evil supposedly having it so bad, that they keep somehow surviving to pose a threat once more, and that Praes our prime example, was canonically incompetent and a laughingstock for generations yet still stands. you'd think that if they were so bad at ruling they'd be wiped out by now.

yet, its not in Good or Evil's best interests to keep the scales balanced like this. in fact, the Angels go out of their way to try and cheat the rules as much as they can so that good wins- who said Good is about following the rules after all? while Evil wants the angels out of the way so that mortals can do things themselves entirely and doesn't particularly how they achieve that.

but who does care about the equilibrium? The Wandering Bard. after all, who else has been manipulating things like this for so long? also known as the Intercessor- that she might in fact be the "true neutral" antagonist of this tale that is just going back forth making sure no one wins for her own plan. but why? why would the Wandering Bard want to keep the status quo going as long as possible like this? she is incredibly aware of the tropes that bind her, and its almost as if she CAN'T die. and whether she is really on the Angels side is debatable.

[Tvtyrant]

I think it is all very Cabin in the Woods, the closest story in terms of structure IME. All the tropes are our tropes, the conflict is entertaining to us. Cat is in a sense at war with the audience, the Bard is our agent.

[Rynjin]

The sole bastion of Good just underwent a nation shattering civil war and is utterly unprepared for a war with Evil as a unified force. The crusade lost to Praes and Callow, then got blindsided by the other two evil bastions invading. If Cat weren't really neutral Evil would be wrapping up this conflict right now, as it is two of the four evil factions have to side with Good to save it.

Even in your own spoiler the series has treated Evil people with just as much luck as Good people, the Woe win conflicts by blatant lies and stealing suns just as often as Good does. Even your argument about Evil needing to be there for Good to destroy works in reverse; Good acts as a ground for Evil to launch undead hordes on. Defining winning as destroying the other side is the source of Black's complaints; the moral forces want equilibrium punctuated by struggles. Neither side is ever going to win.

That's because the Woe isn't Evil, though they might in some cases be evil. None of them even really pay lip service to Below. They use Good tactics to win, relying on a mix of providence, wit, and moxie to get them through. They're plucky underdogs for the most part, and get a narrative push to almost assured victory from that alone.

It does seem odd that despite Evil supposedly having it so bad, that they keep somehow surviving to pose a threat once more, and that Praes our prime example, was canonically incompetent and a laughingstock for generations yet still stands. you'd think that if they were so bad at ruling they'd be wiped out by now.

Praes seems like it's existed as a target to knock down for years. It's "allowed" to exist by falling into a confluence of different narratives that keep it running. Their cartoonish brand of Evil puts them permanently lower on the totem pole than more direct, immediate, and practical brands of evil closer to home for other Good nations. Any time they accomplish something it solves itself; either by their own plans backfiring (sentient tigers, etc.) or by Callow's Good standing pushing them back.

While being irrelevant in the grand scheme, they also seemed to serve a purpose in creating more Good than their Evil wiped out, with any number of heroes being created to push back their latest threats, who continue to exist after Praesi villains have been defeated (and usually killed).

Which I think is kind of the point. For every hero Praes struck down, five more rose to avenge them, and those five went on to crusade against more evil. Good for the world, if bad for Callow specifically.

That's the kind of grand scheme advantage Good has, and what characters like Amadeus rebel against. In the near term it looks like Good and Evil are evenly matched, with heroes and villains each having their own advantages in direct conflicts. But when a villain dies...they're dead, generally speaking. And the nature of Evil generally precludes any narrative power-ups to avenge them or continue on their great work.

A villain's work dies with them in other words. Nobody take sup a villain's torch, or if they do it's a very rare circumstance.

But heroes get LEGACIES. In the grand scheme this is a war of attrition, where every generation of Good gets stronger, lives longer, and feeds on the power and narrative weight of those who came before them. Villains? They stay the same in power, or even get weaker, since all they have is their own power to function under.

Which is the values divide between Good and Evil in this setting in a nutshell. Community vs Individualism; Greater Good vs Free Will; whatever else you want to call it. Villains stand alone, heroes do not. That's why they lose.

And that's why the Calamities and Woe are so successful. They value their own individual freedoms...but attracted like-minded individuals to share their own values not through force, but through shared interests, goals, and genuine camaraderie.

Black's pragmatism was probably beside the point compared to that borrowing/melding of heroic values and villainous ones.

[lord_khaine]

Black is a whiner.

The whole "good always wins" thing that keeps popping up is nonsense.

I could not agree more. I have said it before and i will gladly say it again.
Black is a hypocrite who dont have a leg to stand on in this case.

If the sides were not fairly balanced, then one or the other would eventually have won over in struggle that have lasted god knows how many years.
Heck, we straight up have an example of evil winning without the aid of Cat in the shape of the tyrant. Who are as classic a villain as you can possible get.

Praes seems like it's existed as a target to knock down for years. It's "allowed" to exist by falling into a confluence of different narratives that keep it running. Their cartoonish brand of Evil puts them permanently lower on the totem pole than more direct, immediate, and practical brands of evil closer to home for other Good nations. Any time they accomplish something it solves itself; either by their own plans backfiring (sentient tigers, etc.) or by Callow's Good standing pushing them back.

While being irrelevant in the grand scheme, they also seemed to serve a purpose in creating more Good than their Evil wiped out, with any number of heroes being created to push back their latest threats, who continue to exist after Praesi villains have been defeated (and usually killed).

Which I think is kind of the point. For every hero Praes struck down, five more rose to avenge them, and those five went on to crusade against more evil. Good for the world, if bad for Callow specifically.

I dont think there are anything in the story to support this. Praes isnt allowed to exist. It exist because the only alternative solution to that is Evil. And involves dropping large rocks from orbit.
Though they are certainly not irellavant. They are comical until they are not. And its suddenly a new Triumpant or Irretant thats in charge.

I also dont think the hero creation rate works like a hydra on stereoids. Clearly if it was possible and a advantage then Above would just make every soldier in a army a named, crush every single Below faction and call it a day.
But it does not happen. So i think we should assume there are a limit on what number of agents Above and Below are allowed.

That's the kind of grand scheme advantage Good has, and what characters like Amadeus rebel against. In the near term it looks like Good and Evil are evenly matched, with heroes and villains each having their own advantages in direct conflicts. But when a villain dies...they're dead, generally speaking. And the nature of Evil generally precludes any narrative power-ups to avenge them or continue on their great work.

A villain's work dies with them in other words. Nobody take sup a villain's torch, or if they do it's a very rare circumstance.

But heroes get LEGACIES. In the grand scheme this is a war of attrition, where every generation of Good gets stronger, lives longer, and feeds on the power and narrative weight of those who came before them. Villains? They stay the same in power, or even get weaker, since all they have is their own power to function under.

This has actually been disproven by the story. A large part of the Tyrants advantage comes from the magical stuff previous Tyrants had gathered. As well as the hordes of Gargoyles that have been made.
We also lack evidence on Above's champions growing stronger each generation. Yes there is some legacy names like Gray Pilgrim. But we have not been given any sort of evidence on them inheriting actual power.

[Lord Raziere]

from what we've gotten in the story, it seems that the more one side invests into the conflict, the more another side is allowed to invest into it.

so lets say Angels make heroes everywhere. Evil is allowed to make villains everywhere because thats fair to the game they're playing. just like how somehow the Wandering Bard and the Dread King are equals to each other in longevity and influence- because they are created as counterparts to balance each other out.

its like a betting game. one side makes a bet and put a bunch of chips on on that, the other side has to match or raise the bet. its a cosmic game of poker. so Cat is someone Evil is betting on, but whats the bet, and who is the person that Good is made to equal that they're betting is a philosophical answer to her?

so, theoretically speaking, the absolute limit the two sides can grab in total to win, is half the world, because then the other half is allowed to the other side. whatever conflict they're having this over therefore is about trying to prove a point that requires them to forsake using greater numbers to overwhelm the other side, because anyone can use greater numbers to enforce anything, it doesn't prove anything. but if Good or Evil can win with equal numbers, that focuses the competition they're having on the quality of the people they choose, therefore gives incentive to both of them to make Named a rare minimalist thing, so that these Named can get the numbers advantage by convincing people that their side is the better one. because if not everyone is Named, the people who aren't named don't count as an agent of one side or the other, the normal people are fair game to help outnumber this or that.

so really, the rarity of Named is to ENABLE outnumbering rather than not, because the nature of the Named is one that naturally makes foils and counterparts to clash against one another, just like a story where a villain turns out to be a dark reflection of the hero. its an intentional exploitation of indirect power through the Named to make sure the game is winnable through numbers at all, rather than the world being 50% split and having to truly win through a million counterpart duels happening at the same time. it means the normal people are still important because of their lack of true supernatural bonds to Above or Below. what people believe however is always fair game for outnumber, because its not tangible.

[DaedalusMkV]

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say that Black's complaints were a matter of Grass is Always Greener thinking. Even he is clearly wavering a bit in that belief, considering his conversation with Grey Pilgrim. Neither Good nor Evil is allowed to achieve final victory, because Above and Below both seem to want to win their wager at all costs and cheat more and more mercilessly every time one side looks like they might win. He's right, the villains never achieve any sort of lasting victory and the heroes get more help from luck and Providence the more outclassed they are. But the Heroes never get to put down the last villain, either. And if they do their job too well, some ancient evil comes out of a can somewhere and crushes all their plans to paste.

Black's perspective was borne from his own experiences, and Praes' history. He saw the conflict from the side of the villains; heroes fighting from a position of disadvantage, pulling through with luck and skill and a little help from Above to win the day, then going home to be happy and teach their protégés while the villain's plans are forgotten. He saw an endless cycle with his homeland as the punching bag, achieving no lasting gains at the cost of misery and despair for the man in the streets. Of course he thinks the heroes have it easy.

But look at it from the other way, and it seems just as unfair. Heroes only fighting from a position of disadvantage against Villains that have far greater power, only pulling through by the skin of their teeth. And never without great sacrifice; bringing down even one great villain means sacrificing hundreds or thousands of Good people, and usually half of the Heroes who pulled together to face them. And often an entire other group of Heroes before that. And when it's all said and done, the Evil Empire is still there. The Villain's right-hand man is stepping up to take over, some grand disaster or collapsing lair forces Good to pull back and everything starts right over from the beginning with nothing achieved a few years later.

The simple truth is that the game of heroes and villains is rigged against both sides, to a result of inevitable stasis. Neither side gets a real win. Trying to make any sort of lasting change in Calernia is a fool's errand, the grand dream that keeps the cycle turning but is never truly achieved. Well, except maybe now, since the Villains are changing the basic idea of the game. When you have Villains that act like heroes, that try to win by convincing other people that both sides can get what they want and nobody needs to actually fight at all? Maybe then the game can change. They still won't win, not in the sense of wiping out the Heroes and taking over everything. But they might win by changing the rules of the game until they get what they want.

[lord_khaine]

The Tyrant of Helike landed atop the mound with a sick crunch, the ugly enchanted sculptures carrying his throne everywhere being ground into the stone by the abrupt landing. They chittered loudly in protest, though another gargoyle wearing the tailored robes of a Stygian magister went around swatting them into silence with a stick.

Tyrant continues to be awesome
Even if he does indeed deserve to be locked up with Saint for an hour.

Else. Another chapter from her point of view.
I did like getting a little bit more info on Above's executioner.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Interlude: Reckoning

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An excellent name for this chapter, perhaps, but I like to think that it would better fitted for the next chapter.

It is interesting to see just how strongly Idrani feels for Masego. She's already tried getting across the barrier and the attempt ripped chunks out of her arm. Her response? It's just flesh. Hell, she can't even see bone, so it only qualifies as a scratch. Let's try again. That is pretty bad ass, if you ask me.

As for the purpose of the Dead King's involvement, it all suddenly makes sense. Neshema doesn't get involved when there was something to gain, and it was really irking me that he didn't have anything to gain in this gambit. More territory is a joke - it'll be exposed to heroes and it will be taken back in less than a decade, and what does more territory actually gain him when his own plane of Hell has been shaped into a paradise? There's been nothing for him to gain, so why would he expose himself so blatantly? Now we know why: the prize was the Bard - knowledge of what she is after. Something disappointing to Neshema, something the Dead King believes would turn everyone, heroes and villains alike, against the Bard if it got out.

My theory on what the Bard's aim remains pretty much the same as it's been for a while: She wants to keep the war between Good and Evil going. Which, again, makes her the anti-Cat. You've got a villain fighting like hell to create a lasting peace regardless of divine allegiance, and a hero dedicated to breaking every peace or potential stalemate she can find some leverage in - which she so far has always managed to do eventually. Why do I cling to this theory even stronger for this chapter? "The House Always Wins."

Basically, as long as there's a story to be told, the Theory of Narrative Causality still holds and tropes serve as physical law. In a world like that, a savvy mind who can manipulate the story is king. Or, perhaps, even a goddess in a more practical sense than actual deities. As long as there's a story to be told, the Bard cannot lose in any meaningful sense. Peace is therefore anathema to her, as there are few compelling tales to tell in times of peace.

[lord_khaine]

An excellent chapter in general.

Spoiler

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Saint is a vicious old bat. But at the same time i cant feel anything but sympathy for her.
The Fae made it pretty clear how and for what purpose she is being used
"the faerie laughed. “I see you, cutter. Wounding and wounded, a rag in pale grasp. How much filth can you swallow before the stains no longer wash?”"

My theory on what the Bard's aim remains pretty much the same as it's been for a while: She wants to keep the war between Good and Evil going. Which, again, makes her the anti-Cat. You've got a villain fighting like hell to create a lasting peace regardless of divine allegiance, and a hero dedicated to breaking every peace or potential stalemate she can find some leverage in - which she so far has always managed to do eventually. Why do I cling to this theory even stronger for this chapter? "The House Always Wins."

Basically, as long as there's a story to be told, the Theory of Narrative Causality still holds and tropes serve as physical law. In a world like that, a savvy mind who can manipulate the story is king. Or, perhaps, even a goddess in a more practical sense than actual deities. As long as there's a story to be told, the Bard cannot lose in any meaningful sense. Peace is therefore anathema to her, as there are few compelling tales to tell in times of peace.

This theory does go against the core points already established for the Bard.
She isnt a hero. She has worked with them yes. But she has also acted twice as envoy for Beneath.
That makes it more likely she is outside the hero/villain setup.

Its also unlikely that she is directly willingly doing this. Its explained in a bit of detail in chapter 8. Veracity.

“Three things she always keeps,” Kairos Theodosian lightly said. “She speaks, she sees and she knows stories.”

“Three things she always flees,” he said. “Promised death, direct touch and her heart’s desire.”

“Fleeing her heart’s desire,” I casually repeated. “You almost make the role sound like a punishment.”

The Tyrant smiled.

“I have a theory,” he said. “You see, for someone to truly make a mess on this board, they would need certain qualities. Perception, affinity, knowledge. A combination thereof. You understand my meaning, yes?”

“An awareness of patterns,” I said.

“Exactly so,” Kairos replied. “And, plague as I am by a suspicious nature, it occurred to me that these qualities are as rare as they are useful. That neither Above nor Below are prone to waste in such regards.”

This is the main points in the exchange.

[Calemyr]

An excellent chapter in general.

Spoiler

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This theory does go against the core points already established for the Bard.
She isnt a hero. She has worked with them yes. But she has also acted twice as envoy for Beneath.
That makes it more likely she is outside the hero/villain setup.

Its also unlikely that she is directly willingly doing this. Its explained in a bit of detail in chapter 8. Veracity.

Spoiler

Show

Interesting. Her being beyond Good and Evil is relevant now, is it? But, yes, I would argue that she's nominally a Hero (her shown villainous exploits are portrayed as under the table, while her heroic exploits are out in the open) who seems to have a vested interest in propping up both sides of the war.

And I said nothing of desire, only of need. Whatever her goal is, whether it is for her enjoyment or in service to an obligation, she cannot function without the power she wields through stories. I simply suspect she can't afford peace, and that will make Cat a mortal enemy.

Though, of course, I must acknowledge the weight of the Tyrant's theorycraft. Ironically, I do think he's the best source we've got on her so far.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

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Interesting. Her being beyond Good and Evil is relevant now, is it? But, yes, I would argue that she's nominally a Hero (her shown villainous exploits are portrayed as under the table, while her heroic exploits are out in the open) who seems to have a vested interest in propping up both sides of the war.

I think it very important. Because it can hugely affect what her motivation is.
And how do we know her heroic explots are actually out in the open?
The Dead King knew her by a completely different name. We cant be certain Wandering Bard is her true name.
Or that its actually a heroic name, instead of a neutral one like Thief.

And I said nothing of desire, only of need. Whatever her goal is, whether it is for her enjoyment or in service to an obligation, she cannot function without the power she wields through stories. I simply suspect she can't afford peace, and that will make Cat a mortal enemy.

Im also not certain why she would not be able to function without war.
Saint gave us a perfect example of how stories work perfectly fine without.
In her take of the alchemist she spared.

Though, of course, I must acknowledge the weight of the Tyrant's theorycraft. Ironically, I do think he's the best source we've got on her so far.

It is kinda ironic. But i doubt he would lie blatantly about this.
And his source is likely the best informed one in the world.

[druid91]

It does seem odd that despite Evil supposedly having it so bad, that they keep somehow surviving to pose a threat once more, and that Praes our prime example, was canonically incompetent and a laughingstock for generations yet still stands. you'd think that if they were so bad at ruling they'd be wiped out by now.

yet, its not in Good or Evil's best interests to keep the scales balanced like this. in fact, the Angels go out of their way to try and cheat the rules as much as they can so that good wins- who said Good is about following the rules after all? while Evil wants the angels out of the way so that mortals can do things themselves entirely and doesn't particularly how they achieve that.

but who does care about the equilibrium? The Wandering Bard. after all, who else has been manipulating things like this for so long? also known as the Intercessor- that she might in fact be the "true neutral" antagonist of this tale that is just going back forth making sure no one wins for her own plan. but why? why would the Wandering Bard want to keep the status quo going as long as possible like this? she is incredibly aware of the tropes that bind her, and its almost as if she CAN'T die. and whether she is really on the Angels side is debatable.

That's the thing. At least in the Traditional Stories, evil has it's benefits. Evil is Guaranteed initial victories. And you can even see that to a degree in the shape of the rule of three. Villain Triumphs, Draw, Hero Triumphs.

Evil WINS at first. Hands down. But then they fail. So you can never truly remove evil, because once you've had your final victory. They get another go which they are just as guaranteed to win at as you were the one before.

That's what upsets Black. He wants to be the one to win in the end, not the one to simply be handed a victory only to be cast down. It's not so much that he wants to win everything forever so much as he wants to never lose what he's gained.