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Thread: A Practical Guide to Evil
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2018-11-01, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
Edit: Actually, it occurred to me this morning, Creation feels very much like it could be the fluff text for some unknown wargame (ala BattleTech or Warhammer World). By which I mean, the world narrative seems explictly set-up to keep the statues quo of repeated wars and factionalism; which, if this were actually a wargame background (which it isn't, obviously), would be explictly there to provide people with reasons to play the battles. And, for that, you sort of don't want any good guys, because it's much easier to find reasons for neutral and evil to fight each other than good with good or neutral. An interesting thought.
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2018-11-01, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
Wasn't it proposed upthread that PGtE is essentially a Heroes of Might and Magic campaign setting? Large armies completely invalidated by heroic/villainous individuals who can singlehandedly wipe out said armies, only countered by the other side's heroic units?
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2018-11-01, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
Even the Kingdom of the Dead being its own thing works in that idea.
One thing I can't figure out is why using devils and undead is evil in this setting. Demons I get because they corrupt the world around them, but devils and undead are depicted as being basically fleshy robots.
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2018-11-01, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2018-11-01, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
They're eternal sources of strength/power.
The entire reason for heroes retiring is because Good doesn't want it's proverbial dogs to have too long a leash. So they grow old and die returning their strength and power to the heavens who can then distribute as they see fit.
Any form of Immortality doesn't work with this paradigm.
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2018-11-01, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
That is true. But they treat it like some major sin instead of just summoniny the equivalent of ugly magic bears. Pilgrim and Cat even agree to not use them, even though Cat is the super pragmatist and there are no drawbacks to them :/
This makes sense to me. This also seems to be why good has lots of priests and few mages.
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2018-11-01, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
Cat believes herself to be extremely pragmatic, and is in some ways. However, she's definitely made some errors, and was indoctrinated by some propaganda from the light in her early years(this comes up so soon I'm pretty sure it's not a spoiler). A bit of twitchiness about full on necromancy or demon/devil summoning is reasonable.
Particularly given that this is a world of many real dangers. Yeah, people lie about the dangers, but enough of them are real that being cautious is often advisable.
Spoiler
Also, she totally does some necromancy. Sometimes even fairly risky levels of it. Like, riding on a dead horse is pretty normal for her, but the self-necromancy is definitely a loooot further.
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2018-11-01, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
SpoilerI would argue that sacrificing yourself to save 100k people is in fact an act of Good, and the idea of being so devoted to people you turn yourself undead out of desperation is also good (see Order of the Stick ghost martyrs).
The pragmatism thing to me is that zombies and devils are not alive and everyone of them that eats a spear saves a real person on her side from dying. They are fairly close to modern issues revolving around drones, but Cat as the self-proclaimed pragmatist decides they are off limits.
It is absolutely part of her cultural upbringing, in line with her argument with Killian. She has no problem with executing people on death row, but draws the line at benefiting from that execution.
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2018-11-01, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
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2018-11-01, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-01, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
SpoilerCat is definitely not above using tools like undead or devils when the opportunity presents itself - there's multiple instances where she's raised battlefield dead from either side to support an attack or fill a hole in the battle lines, and if somebody else has already bought devils to the field then they're fair game if their control can be suborned somehow. The difference is that she doesn't intend to have them as a default part of her armies. Part of it is a moral objection; having undead in your battle lines requires that somebody have died first to be made undead, and she draws a distinction between 'I killed them and raised them because they would be a more useful soldier dead than alive' and 'I raised them after they already died in battle for me (because it would stop more of my still-living soldiers from getting killed.)' It's the same as her objection to human sacrifice to power rituals that would otherwise be useful to her - she's pragmatic enough to use the power if it's going to be present anyway, but she does not want to take lives just to create that power. Part of it is she needs to be able to present herself as an alternative to the methods of Praes if she wants to achieve her goals - there's no point being the independent (in all but name) Queen of Callow if her own people and the rest of the world just think of her as an extension of Praes anyway.
The other problem is largely logistical: both undead and devils require mages or Cat's personal attention and power to control and command them in battle. Cat's armies are perpetually short of mages relative to their size, and the ones they have access to are usually occupied trying to prevent various magical catastrophes from destroying her completely, or in backing up Hierophant in a ritual that will probably have much bigger results than having your mages hold the leash of a couple lines of undead.Last edited by tyckspoon; 2018-11-01 at 02:36 PM.
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2018-11-01, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
The entire reason for heroes retiring is because Good doesn't want it's proverbial dogs to have too long a leash. So they grow old and die returning their strength and power to the heavens who can then distribute as they see fit.
And because it helps reinforce a pattern where no side will get a complete victory.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-11-01, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
Hi! Thanks to you guys, I started this wonderful series. I am about to read Prologue of Book 3, ans having a great time so far.
I stay away from this thread because.. i cant discuss anything without spoiling myself. But i was jus wanted to say...
Bellerophon is creepy as ****. Jesus, its 1984/Glorious Communist Russia/???? Rolled into one. What are the Kanenas? Magical spirits? Human magic pracitionners?
Why are they "evil" aligned?!?
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2018-11-01, 08:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
I think both are just as likely, and not mutually exclusive. It has been hinted/outright stated in at least ONE capacity that the Gods have finite power to distribute to their servants (hence the given capabilities of devils and angels). It would make sense that Names are similar in a way.
Villainous Names tend to be more powerful in the macro sense, and often grant powers that grow stronger with experience. Heroic Names on the contrary tend to come broken out of the box and better at accomplishing a specific task. Villains get more general purpose powers on average, and grow craftier and more capable with age; Heroes are quite literally made, not born for a specific purpose and abilities tailored to that.
There are exceptions on both sides, particularly for the grayer names like Squire and Thief, but it seems to be the rule. Once a Hero's purpose is served, they're put back in the tool shed until they're needed again.
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2018-11-01, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
Considering word of god is that the reasons heroes age and villains don't is because that's what the Heavens designs for their servants.
Heroes age and die. > Power returns to the Heavens.
Villains don't age but lose strength if they don't throw themselves into conflict, eventually getting themselves killed. > Power returns to the Hellgods.
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2018-11-01, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-01, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-01, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-01, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-01, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-02, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
Something I think is interesting...
SpoilerNight and all its many uses and means of gaining and losing it in the everdark are implied to be the result of the Drow making use of the Sves domain. Along with the implications of the dead king and the wandering bard, what if common named are not so directly connected to the heavens/hells as we once believed? What if Names are just the Bards Domain? It would fit if the Bard had the domain of stories.
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2018-11-02, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
Spoiler
I don't think the Wandering Bard has control over names/the Story so much as the Story has control over her. She's the Narrative's self-defense mechanism, a semi-autonomous entity who tries to keep the Story on track. The Dead King was sneaky enough to outsmart her and forge his own narrative.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2018-11-02, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
I believe Ranger is (ostensibly) a Villain, though not exactly a "loyal soldier".
Though do we have any actual evidence that says named are empowered directly by the gods?
It seems to me they are more empowered by fate/story/destiny/belief. And less direct champions or Clerics of the gods.
Of course with a few noteable exceptions. Like named Priests.
But we have seen that even non-named can draw upon the power of heaven.
In the House of Light.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-11-02, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
SpoilerI am greatly enjoying the fight between Masego and his parents. The fact that Masego is actually closer to a traditional villain then anyone but Akua or the Tyrant always kicks me since he is one of Cat's best friends.
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2018-11-02, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
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2018-11-03, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
Spoiler: W.B. spoiler
I don't think the Wandering Bard has control over names/the Story so much as the Story has control over her. She's the Narrative's self-defense mechanism, a semi-autonomous entity who tries to keep the Story on track. The Dead King was sneaky enough to outsmart her and forge his own narrative.
But yes i do think she is the ultimate fail-safe for when someone tries to skip the tracks. It also seems like her involvement is proportional with the degree of deviation there is.
I mean, Black the Calamities only made her drop in with a group of junior heroes. Can anyone recall what it was that set her off here recently?
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-11-03, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
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2018-11-03, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
I figure it's because that's just how stories go.
Heroes grow old because that's what a "happily ever after" looks like. Conan conquers his foes and grows old on the throne. The mighty knight retires to a quiet life on his farm. The all-powerful wizard, having banished evil, fades into obscurity. Good just dies off. Stories are usually about heroes, so the story ends with the hero, and the hero ends with the story.
Villains don't age, because they need to be around for a hero to crush them. What kind of story would it be, if the villain raised an empire, ruled for a few decades, and died peacefully in her bed? That's an anticlimax. No, a villain needs to be defeated by a hero. So the villain remains in her prime until a hero comes along to slay her.
You'll note, however, that it's not perfect. Villains may not age, but they... sort of do, if left to not-quite-villainy.
SpoilerWarlock notes that Black seemed to be, not slowing down, but not quite his old self. Years of not-warring was taking its toll on his villainy. But after Cat stabs Black, Warlock notes that Black seems back to his youthful self. He has a conflict again. A war. A purpose, in the narrative, as a villain. Accordingly, he regains his youthful energy, his ambition and cunning, because he has a role in the story again. Villains need to be at their best when the heroes come knocking, because that makes for a good story.
The thing to remember is that this is a story about stories. The major plot points underscore Creation's need to follow a logical narrative. So if you're faced with a "Why does this happen?" moment, the most likely answer is because that's how stories go.My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.
Blue text means sarcasm. Purple text means evil. White text is invisible.
My signature got too big for its britches. So now it's over here!
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2018-11-03, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
Spoiler: W.B. Spoiler
The Hierarch/Tyrant of Helike. Not sure what exactly happened or how, but he declared the narrative/her to be in league with foreign despots and banished her.
I mean from a story perspective the Tyrant seems utterly harmless. Going full on ham mode as a villain.
I figure it's because that's just how stories go.
Heroes grow old because that's what a "happily ever after" looks like. Conan conquers his foes and grows old on the throne. The mighty knight retires to a quiet life on his farm. The all-powerful wizard, having banished evil, fades into obscurity. Good just dies off. Stories are usually about heroes, so the story ends with the hero, and the hero ends with the story.
Villains don't age, because they need to be around for a hero to crush them. What kind of story would it be, if the villain raised an empire, ruled for a few decades, and died peacefully in her bed? That's an anticlimax. No, a villain needs to be defeated by a hero. So the villain remains in her prime until a hero comes along to slay her.
You'll note, however, that it's not perfect. Villains may not age, but they... sort of do, if left to not-quite-villainy.
The thing to remember is that this is a story about stories. The major plot points underscore Creation's need to follow a logical narrative. So if you're faced with a "Why does this happen?" moment, the most likely answer is because that's how stories go.
Because at the same time, if there was not some sort of narative reset, then we could not have repeated stories building up that sort of narrative structure that creation seems to follow.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2018-11-03, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A Practical Guide to Evil
SpoilerThe ham mode villains are supported by the narrative, which is why Akua as a lone name took 5+ named to put down. The Tyrant isn't just a named, he is just as aware of the narrative structure as Black and Malicia but willing to use it to further his own ends.