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Thread: Alignment scale 5e
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2018-11-03, 01:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Alignment scale 5e
I know that strictly speaking there is no functional change with alignment but i am curious if the alignments exist on a scale.
I have a character who is without a doubt Lawful Good at the start of his background (scholar). His wife and daughter are murdered. Joins the army in an attempt to get away from his pain...only finds more pain and a thirst for revenge. I believe at this point his alignment has shifted
Coming back home with revenge his only desire it is snatched from him and in his despair he accepts the offer of a fiend to become a warlock. When he next leaves the house he has a renewed sense of purpose towards his goal of revenge against the people/system who let him down (think Law Abiding Citizen).
His focus is on the the murderers -2, judge, corrupt crowns guard?, political benefactor (maybe a couple of others but i don't know the judicial system), but i think that he will become more accepting of collateral damage as he makes his way thru his list and thats not even considering what the fiend may require in return.
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2018-11-03, 03:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2018-11-03, 05:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-03, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
One of my favorite things to reference in cases like this is the Great Wheel cosmology.
In the NW portion of the Great Wheel, you have Lawful Good... the Seven Heavens are Pure Lawful and Pure Good. Slightly south of the Seven Heavens is Arcadia, which is Pure Lawful, and slightly less good... its inhabitants might be LG or LN. Slightly east of the Seven Heavens are the Twin Paradises, which is Pure Good, but slightly less Lawful. Its inhabitants might be LG or NG.
Every alignment is a spectrum. Lots of True Neutral druids tend a bit Lawful and Good, because they live within a society and are generally helpful to the people around them, even if it's not in a completely altruistic way. Others tend Chaotic and Evil, because while they embrace balance, their idea of balance involves dismantling society, even if it hurts some people.The Cranky Gamer
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2018-11-03, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-03, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
5e doesnt have Law vs Chaos and Good vs Evil as partiularly meaningful to Alignments, in terms of seperate concepts on crossing axis defining the alignment, as previous editions. Each alignment is given its own single sentence individual associated behavior.
Of course can still see the clear trends / commonalities between the associated behaviors of the Lawful alignments or Chaotic Alignments etc. But they are provided as 9 whole packages, not a coordinate system of two crossed axis.
Also, nothing in 5e says a player cant choose to change their PC Alignment when they want to. And outside of a few specific circumstances, there isnt anything to recommend that a DM can force a player to change their PC alignment either. It can easily be viewed as the domain of the player, and RP tool for their use.
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2018-11-03, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
I did have a DM tell a player that "After that, you're no longer CG. You're CN."
And, while I feel that it was a little excessive, it didn't REALLY matter. Virtually nothing procs off alignment in 5E, so it literally just required him to erase Good and put Neutral. That's it.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2018-11-03, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
My D&D 5th ed. Druid Handbook
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2018-11-03, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
Yeah just spotted that too
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2018-11-05, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
The table Monte Cook gave was incomplete too. It is supposed to work as general guidelines in order to know where to put a character in the alignment scale...
A -2 Evil character may raise the rent to a poor family; a -7 character will kidnap, torture and kill children if they can get away with it... A Paladin using Detect Evil would react very differently to both...Last edited by Clistenes; 2018-11-05 at 09:35 AM.
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2018-11-05, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-05, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
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2018-11-05, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
What if you do super bad things but you also do super good things on the whole and most think you're a good guy... who does bad things.
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2018-11-05, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
Nope - it just refers to level of target only.
Whether you are 1st level or 51st level doesn't matter - a 51 Hit Dice evil-aligned creature will radiate an Overwhelming aura of Evil:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm
however, if you are Good, and have half (or less than half) the Hit Dice/level of the generator of the Overwhelming aura, you will be stunned by it.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2018-11-05, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-05, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
I thought you were saying that level compared to caster of spell, matters.
The point I was trying to make is that Aura Strength of a cleric of a given level, is always the same. It doesn't matter if the caster of the Detect Evil spell is 1st level or 20th level - a 5th level cleric will always have an aura of the same strength.Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-11-05 at 01:41 PM.
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2018-11-05, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-05, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-12-07, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
In long ago D&D Alignment was explicitly on a scale.
5e has Alignment as:
"the moral compass that guides his or her decisions"
and says that
"Individuals might vary significantly from that typical behavior, and few people are perfectly and consistently faithful to the precepts of their alignment."
Monte Cook co-writer of 3e?
Cool.
I'll go further back.
In THE MEANING OF LAW AND CHAOS IN DUNGEONS & DRAGONS AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS TO GOOD AND EVIL by Gary Gygax FEBRUARY 1976 the article that added the "good and evil axis" to D&D, it was made clear in this graph:
..that creatures don't just exist on one of nine points of ethics/morality, there's a range.
Also in the article Gygax states:
"Placement of characters upon a graph similar to that in Illustration I is necessary if the dungeonmaster is to maintain a record of player-character alignment. Initially, each character should be placed squarely on the center point of his alignment, i.e., lawful/good, lawful/evil, etc. The actions of each game week will then be taken into account when determining the current position of each character. Adjustment is perforce often subjective, but as a guide the referee can consider the actions of a given player in light of those characteristics which typify his alignment, and opposed actions can further be weighed with regard to intensity....
....Alignment does not preclude actions which typify a different alignment, but such actions will necessarily affect the position of the character performing them, and the class or the alignment of the character in question can change due to such actions, unless counter-deeds are performed to balance things."
Per Gygax, I infer from that "Alignment" didn't control the PC's actions, PC actions are a guide to what "Alignment" the DM rules a character is for game effects.
I bloviate on this a lot more in my D&D Alignment, a history thread.
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2018-12-07, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
Well, since people have been quoting a lot of 3.5e mechanics here, I would point you towards the 3.5e DMG page 134. "Indecisiveness Indicates Neutrality".
Slight correction.
A Cleric of an Evil deity's Aura is based on their class level.
You're an 11th level Lawful Neutral Cleric of Hextor (LE deity)? You have an Overwhelming Evil Aura.
Check the Cleric class description if you doubt me. Clerics only manifest a powerful aura of the alignment of their deity. And for deity-less clerics, they only manifest a powerful aura if they have an alignment domain. Lawful Evil level 20 deity-less cleric with no alignment domain? Moderate Evil Aura. Level 11 LE cleric of Wee Jas (LN deity)? Moderate Evil aura, but Overwhelming Lawful one.
Cleric is the class with the MOST alignment related mechanics and restrictions (and restrictions in general, to include racial ones), and yet, alignment detractors limit themselves to whining about "chaotic monks", "lawful barbarians", and "non-LG paladins". And occasionally "lawful bards".Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
Where do you fit in? (link fixed)
RedMage Prestige Class!
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2018-12-10, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
AD&D had some really strange warts on the alignment system. I'm pretty sure the whole alignment system grew out of the red/blue sides of the hit table (the chainmail basis that D&D grew from). AD&D included things like harsh penalties for changing alignments and secret "alignment language" for creatures of similar alignments to work together without a common "normal" tongue. There was a comment that blurting out things in public in your alignment language simply wasn't done.
I'd recommend a simple two-level scale myself. Normal alignments for most people, and more real *alignments* for those whose characters are closely tied with such things (paladins and such). Presumably being exalted/vile (+chaos/law) would typically involve a ceremony/rite including an oath of fealty (possibly more like Jefferson's "for I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" for chaotic good/neutral types). This lets you keep most of the more-or-less required legacy bits of alignment for D&D play, but also lets most characters mostly ignore the dreaded "nine possible personalities allowed in D&D".
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2018-12-11, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
Alignment languages were asinine, agreed.
I really contest the concept of "nine possible personality types" thing, tho. Alignment does not determine personality. Look to OotS for a perfect example of this. Roy, Durkon, and Miko were all Lawful Good. Haley, Elan, and Shinjo were all Chaotic Good. All of these characters had radically different personality types, even from others of the same alignment.Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
Where do you fit in? (link fixed)
RedMage Prestige Class!
Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
"Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."
Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.
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2018-12-11, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Alignment scale 5e
Personally, I only fill out the alignment as a blank space that needs to be filled.
I don't like when alignment is used to argue against a player for playing their character how they would play it.
Say if you put lawful evil as your alignment, but the character does a good deed. This doesn't change the alignment drastic ally, It's more of the character IS lawful evil, but his actions are neutral good if that makes sense.