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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    As Deophaun pointed out with an intelligent enough player it is impossible for Planar Binding to have consequences and I am such player.
    Boccob, the God of Magic, decides to smite you for Binding too much.

    How does a smart guy like you get around that consequence?

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhedyn View Post
    Boccob, the God of Magic, decides to smite you for Binding too much.

    How does a smart guy like you get around that consequence?
    I roll a new character, create Ice Assassins of Boccob and murder his ass. Then I have them start making ice assassins of other gods and murder all of them and then I have them murder everything in the universe.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    I roll a new character, create Ice Assassins of Boccob and murder his ass. Then I have them start making ice assassins of other gods and murder all of them and then I have them murder everything in the universe.
    I think you've missed a few necessary steps in between that first and second stage.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    @Segev:

    Overlap happens when you can gain the same result, using entirely different (sub)systems and rules to get there.

    For example, when the game system treads a permanent minion as something that is either a class feature (ex: Druid animal companion, Wizard familiar) or has to be "bought" via feat (ex: Squire, Torchbearer, Leadership) or WBL (ex: Ultimate Campaign Mass Combat system), then a permanent Planar Binding doesn't fit there. It infringes on other rules that are already established (ex: Leadership would actually allow only for a whopping 2 Barbazu at extremely high level)
    Ah. I disagree that this is... a problem, I guess? One might argue that it's overpowered, but not that it's inherently invalid. Having multiple ways to achieve something is perfectly fine in a game system. It's only a problem when the game system is a "what-based" system rahter than a "how-based" system. That is, you're paying for end effects with the same resources no matter what, rather than having a system with multiple subsystems and resource sets to build characters with different mechanical ways to do things. BESM and M&M 3e are (in theory) "what-based." D&D and pretty much ANY class-based system, and GURPS as well, are "how-based."

    Having multiple ways to acquire long-lasting or permanent minions isn't a problem; it's a deliberate design feature.

    Thrallherd, Leadership, or just serial use of dominate monster, for instance.

    Fly, being a Large half-dragon, and owning a flying carpet, for another instance.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadline View Post
    The issue here is, you are reading more into the spell than is there. You are assuming that the spell is naturally intended to interact with other spells not mentioned in its description. The spell really is as filled with DM interpretation as it appears to be in the PHB. Compiling a list of rules quotes from a dozen books doesn't speak to the intent, because you are trying to take the interpretations of dozens of writers and editors and claim that they somehow show intent for writers of the original spell. Except that can't possibly be the case (certainly not without a time machine).

    At best, your quotes show a possible reading of how to interpret the spell consistently. The main issue you seem to be running into here is that your interpretation leans heavily into the consequence free area, which is counter to the spell description itself, and also problematic for game balance at many tables.

    It also doesn't help that you make sweeping declarative statements like "Fiends don't get rescue teams," "Fiends must free themselves", and "shove these rule quotes in your DM's face". And then also try to say that you aren't trying to claim that DM's are RPing fiends wrong if they do those things.

    You seem to have this weird chip on your shoulder regarding how you think things should be, and I can't tell if it's because of interactions you've had here, or if you are viewing all of the criticism of your argument through your personal lens of bad experiences with a DM in the past. Heck, it's very possible I'm misunderstanding your argument, so please clarify if I'm missing something.
    i couldnt agree more with this if i tried.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    I roll a new character, create Ice Assassins of Boccob and murder his ass. Then I have them start making ice assassins of other gods and murder all of them and then I have them murder everything in the universe.
    Lol no: https://holiviantales.wordpress.com/...aracter-stats/

    Portfolio Sense:
    Boccob senses all magic use (spellcasting, item use, spell-like ability use, or magic item creation) seventeen weeks before it happens and retains the sensation for seventeen weeks after the event occurs. He has a similar ability to sense the discovery, recording, or sharing of any spell or bit of arcane knowledge. He likewise senses any prophecy or prediction of the future (whether accurate or not) and any event that alters the balance of good, evil, law, and chaos in the cosmology.

    Good luck using any spell-based method to kill him when he knows about it 17 weeks ahead of time.

    Try this thread on the topic: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ng-down-Boccob
    Last edited by Rhedyn; 2018-11-08 at 04:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    I always end up looking like a rule lawyering theorycrafter when I use rules to stop DMs from rule lawyering to nerf planar binding. As others said there is no way a splat book can change how a core spell is used and my rule lawyering just proved that the splat book in question did NOT in fact change how the core spell is used.
    No no no no, you misunderstood. If you are fighting the DM your playstyle is distruptive, no matter what, unless your discomfort is shared along the table with other players. The DM is totally free to change the way a spell works, his job is to create a coherent world which give immersion and amusement to the players, rule zero nukes to ground everything else. If your table and the DM are fine with your playstyle there's nothing to prevent you to play that way

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    No no no no, you misunderstood. If you are fighting the DM your playstyle is distruptive, no matter what, unless your discomfort is shared along the table with other players. The DM is totally free to change the way a spell works, his job is to create a coherent world which give immersion and amusement to the players, rule zero nukes to ground everything else. If your table and the DM are fine with your playstyle there's nothing to prevent you to play that way
    You're absolutely right which is why I place huge importance on the interview process. Full disclosure so the rule debate happens during the interview and not mid-campaign and if he has a problem with my build then we part ways.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    You're absolutely right which is why I place huge importance on the interview process. Full disclosure so the rule debate happens during the interview and not mid-campaign and if he has a problem with my build then we part ways.
    That does mean you are more playing builds than playing in campaigns.

    Doesn't seem great to me either, but you do you.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    You're absolutely right which is why I place huge importance on the interview process. Full disclosure so the rule debate happens during the interview and not mid-campaign and if he has a problem with my build then we part ways.
    Essentially your argument boils down to "This is how I want Planar Binding to work, and any DM must agree with it because I asked before the game and I only joined the game because they agreed with it."

    Yay?

    I mean, you've already said you posted it just so you could reference it online (ever heard of google docs?), and you don't seem to care about the possibility of having to play in a game that doesn't run it exactly how you want it, so. . .
    Last edited by Fizban; 2018-11-08 at 05:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Essentially your argument boils down to "This is how I want Planar Binding to work, and any DM must agree with it because I asked before the game and I only joined the game because they agreed with it."

    Yay?

    I mean, you've already said you posted it just so you could reference it online (ever heard of google docs?), and you don't seem to care about the possibility of having to play in a game that doesn't run it exactly how you want it, so. . .
    He doesn't seem to care about the possibility of having to play in a game where planar binding doesn't function as intended by it's creators. Just like how the vast majority of people won't play in your game where some amateur DM tried to house rule everything to the point it's no longer d&d and doesn't care about the possibility of playing the game as intended by its writers.

    Yay?
    Last edited by magicalmagicman; 2018-11-08 at 06:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by magicalmagicman View Post
    He doesn't seem to care about the possibility of having to play in a game where planar binding doesn't function as intended by it's creators. Just like how the vast majority of people won't play in your game where some amateur DM tried to house rule everything to the point it's no longer d&d and doesn't care about the possibility of playing the game as intended by its writers.

    Yay?
    D&D is a game to be made in small, private groups. The aim is to have amusement together, not to play d&d as intended by it's creator. If other guys play and enjoy it and you cannot join them because you want to follow RAW you are free to do your own way, but if you don't find a group because you don't compromise, it's your social skills that you should question, not the rulebooks.
    Last edited by Selion; 2018-11-08 at 06:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Essentially your argument boils down to "This is how I want Planar Binding to work, and any DM must agree with it because I asked before the game and I only joined the game because they agreed with it."

    Yay?

    I mean, you've already said you posted it just so you could reference it online (ever heard of google docs?), and you don't seem to care about the possibility of having to play in a game that doesn't run it exactly how you want it, so. . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    D&D is a game to be made in small, private groups. The aim is to have amusement together, not to play d&d as intended by it's creator. If other guys play and enjoy it and you cannot join them because you want to follow RAW you are free to do your own way, but if you don't find a group because you don't compromise, it's your social skills that you should question, not the rulebooks.
    I think it's commendable that RoboEmperor recognizes that his playstyle is not for everyone and uses the interview process to find a table where he'd fit in. If I was playing with a player who intends to make an entire build around one spell I'd appreciate it if we went over his character together before the game began and see if he made a mistake somewhere rather than tell him his character is illegal or he can't do the thing he wanted to do few months into the game. Why people are ragging on such behavior is beyond me.

    And this isn't a RAW debate either. RoboEmperor has done an excellent job that the RAI of the spell is enslavement too. So this is not a RAW or RAI scenario, it's a house rule or no house rule scenario.
    Last edited by gogogome; 2018-11-08 at 06:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    D&D is a game to be made in small, private groups. The aim is to have amusement together, not to play d&d as intended by it's creator. If other guys play and enjoy it and you cannot join them because you want to follow RAW you are free to do your own way, but if you don't find a group because you don't compromise, it's your social skills that you should question, not the rulebooks.
    He's not rule lawyering a technicality like saying Shades can replicate any conjuration spell so i don't get why you keep saying he's a RAW munchkin.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by magicalmagicman View Post
    He doesn't seem to care about the possibility of having to play in a game where planar binding doesn't function as intended by it's creators.
    Florian has already covered this, but I'll repeat it once for effect: the writers of the quotes being used are not the creators of Planar Binding. Splat books for 3.5 written by completely different authors years after the 3.0 version was written carry no weight as "it's creators."

    First rule is, there is no RAW, only a DM reading the rules. There is no "intent of the writers" tying together over a hundred books by dozens of authors. There is however, one DMG (one PHB, and one MM), and what we know of the previous editions and how they were played before 3.0 was written by a much smaller number of authors. So which has more authority?

    Wrong. The DM has the authority, and if you can't play by any reading other than your own, you'd best make yourself into a good enough DM to run the game for yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    I think it's commendable that RoboEmperor recognizes that his playstyle is not for everyone and uses the interview process to find a table where he'd fit in.
    No one has a problem with how he wants to play the game. But I don't find it very commendable the he's decided to use the forum as a personal notepad, with a deliberately confrontational intro, then spent six pages arguing about it.
    Last edited by Fizban; 2018-11-08 at 06:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Florian has already covered this, but I'll repeat it once for effect: the writers of the quotes being used are not the creators of Planar Binding. Splat books for 3.5 written by completely different authors years after the 3.0 version was written carry no weight as "it's creators."

    First rule is, there is no RAW, only a DM reading the rules. There is no "intent of the writers" tying together over a hundred books by dozens of authors. There is however, one DMG (one PHB, and one MM), and what we know of the previous editions and how they were played before 3.0 was written by a much smaller number of authors. So which has more authority?

    Wrong. The DM has the authority, and if you can't play by any reading other than your own, you'd best make yourself into a good enough DM to run the game for yourself.
    Yes yes. We've all seen your tirade a million times about how d&d rules are just guidelines and how all the splat books are homebrew and how the DM gets to be a dictator of the world and call his mangled mess a d&d game and how any player using any d&d book to build a character is badwrongfun and should play the game blind with no preset build.

    Stop hijacking threads to your off-topic tangent to get your jollies.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    No one has a problem with how he wants to play the game. But I don't find it very commendable the he's decided to use the forum as a personal notepad, with a deliberately confrontational intro, then spent six pages arguing about it.
    You see the view count of this thread? It's because people are having fun participating in it. I for one am very happy he made this thread. If you don't like it then stop reading the thread and stop posting. You're the only one with a problem here.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by magicalmagicman View Post
    He's not rule lawyering a technicality like saying Shades can replicate any conjuration spell so i don't get why you keep saying he's a RAW munchkin.
    So let's say it's RAI, my point doesn't change at all. The same thing would apply fighting another player's playstyle. Suppose he finds a DM which agrees with his way to read rules and lets him play his mazinga whatever with a matrioska of summoned and polymorphed beings, another player doesn't like it and builds purposely his character against that player, min-maxing banishment spells and sending to home whatever he summons, or stepping on magic circles whenever he summons something. Rulewise it would be totally legit, but I would dislike even that playstyle, unless all the table is fine with this duel between players and they have fun with it, there is not point in ruining the gaming experience to other players or to the DM, any table plays the way its players like, there is not a price to whom sticks better with the rules, the same way there is not a price to whom plays like he were on an acting drama applying Stanislavski's system to D&D, different playstyles could coexist in the same table and if he wants to play that... thing :) ... he should just ask his friends if they are fine with it, without pointing on rulebooks or forum discussions.
    Last edited by Selion; 2018-11-08 at 07:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    I suppose I should have said it more plainly the first time: pre-game discusssion, or what RoboEmperor is calling the interview process, is important- so important that I don't find its statement to be a revelation.

    However, I was missing a bit from RoboEmperor's own posts- that it seems their valuing of the interview has come as a direct result of past experiences with Planar Binding. On this page I had read Selion describing why this sort of argument would be disruptive for a game, Robo saying that's why the interview is important, and so I wonder why that's something new, but I'd missed that they'd explained that down the bottom of last page. So that was a poorly chosen response, because learning from that experience is indeed commendable.
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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    I think the problem here is that RoboEmperor's tone does not match his conduct. In the first post he says things like "shove this in the DM's face" but when he describes his actual conduct it's "Get the Planar Binding rulings figured out before the game begins" and if there is no problem "shut up and don't correct the DM in-game especially regarding fiend roleplay." He says he uses the quotes on the first page during the interview session to educate the DM how planar binding is supposed to work and not as a weapon to throw in a DM's face mid campaign which contradicts his OP's tone which in turn caused people to accuse RoboEmperor of disrupting games with rule lawyering which in turn caused RoboEmperor to repeat the same things over and over again which in turn confused everyone involved because his actions don't match his OP's tone.

    I recommend the OP to learn from this and not take such an antagonistic tone in the first post next time to avoid this confusion.
    Last edited by gogogome; 2018-11-09 at 01:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Wrong. The DM has the authority, and if you can't play by any reading other than your own, you'd best make yourself into a good enough DM to run the game for yourself.
    I had a good kek over this line, because it basically sums up why I DM 90% of the games I participate in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    I think the problem here is that RoboEmperor's tone does not match his conduct. In the first post he says things like "shove this in the DM's face" but when he describes his actual conduct it's "Get the Planar Binding rulings figured out before the game begins" and if there is no problem "shut up and don't correct the DM in-game especially regarding fiend roleplay." He says he uses the quotes on the first page during the interview session to educate the DM how planar binding is supposed to work and not as a weapon to throw in a DM's face mid campaign which contradicts his OP's tone which in turn caused people to accuse RoboEmperor of disrupting games with rule lawyering which in turn caused RoboEmperor to repeat the same things over and over again which in turn confused everyone involved because his actions don't match his OP's tone.

    I recommend the OP to learn from this and not take such an antagonistic tone in the first post next time to avoid this confusion.
    I second this recommendation.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    I think the problem here is that RoboEmperor's tone does not match his conduct. In the first post he says things like "shove this in the DM's face" but when he describes his actual conduct it's "Get the Planar Binding rulings figured out before the game begins" and if there is no problem "shut up and don't correct the DM in-game especially regarding fiend roleplay." He says he uses the quotes on the first page during the interview session to educate the DM how planar binding is supposed to work and not as a weapon to throw in a DM's face mid campaign which contradicts his OP's tone which in turn caused people to accuse RoboEmperor of disrupting games with rule lawyering which in turn caused RoboEmperor to repeat the same things over and over again which in turn confused everyone involved because his actions don't match his OP's tone.

    I recommend the OP to learn from this and not take such an antagonistic tone in the first post next time to avoid this confusion.
    You are probably right, he even gave nice advices to create consequences on a pit lord enslavement, he knows his stuff. There is nothing wrong in talking about a rule before the campaign, but it's strange that this would be a condition to join it. Furthermore, his character is... weird... (very creative, though), a DM could stop his build mid campaign anyway house ruling a single option or negating the combo. Sometimes a good interpretation can save a strange character concept and make it accepted by other players, i just say it's useless pointing to rules, because the whole issue is not about rules.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    You are probably right, he even gave nice advices to create consequences on a pit lord enslavement, he knows his stuff. There is nothing wrong in talking about a rule before the campaign, but it's strange that this would be a condition to join it. Furthermore, his character is... weird... (very creative, though), a DM could stop his build mid campaign anyway house ruling a single option or negating the combo. Sometimes a good interpretation can save a strange character concept and make it accepted by other players, i just say it's useless pointing to rules, because the whole issue is not about rules.
    Have you heard of the game Neverwinter Nights? I loved that game because of it's summoning system. You summon one creature for 24 hours and then have it kill everything while you buff and heal it. This is the only playstyle I love in any video game. Create a powerful expendable monster and support it while it kills stuff. No other video game has this playstyle which is why I turned to d&d.

    The reason I don't play RTS is because I like controlling only 1 character, not an army. Furthermore I like RPGs.

    So the reason I play d&d is because it's an RPG and I can play a creator/summoner/caller of a powerful creature. If you take one or the other away I lose my reason to play the game which is why I don't play the game if the DM wants me to play a blaster spellcaster or a BFC spellcaster.

    I also like customization. A lot. To the point I only play sandbox video games because I can beat the game my way, with my style, which is why I love building characters in 3.5 a lot. So much customization options even after all these years I am still amazed how I can customize a part I don't like with something I do like.

    I prefer constructs over fiends but 100% of my attempts at making a construct master failed, which is why Planar Binding is the only thing in the entire game that lets me play the way I want to.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    I had a good kek over this line, because it basically sums up why I DM 90% of the games I participate in.
    I did basically commit a hostile takeover of a dnd group because I (and most of the players) were dissatisfied with the DM's style. I apologized later because I did feel a bit bad about it, but they weren't too broken up. It also helps that the vast majority of people don't want to DM (not even me really, I'd rather be a player too), so if you want to take the job to make sure it's done right, there's little competition. Just gotta make sure your players know how you're gonna run it.
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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Have you heard of the game Neverwinter Nights? I loved that game because of it's summoning system. You summon one creature for 24 hours and then have it kill everything while you buff and heal it. This is the only playstyle I love in any video game. Create a powerful expendable monster and support it while it kills stuff. No other video game has this playstyle which is why I turned to d&d.

    The reason I don't play RTS is because I like controlling only 1 character, not an army. Furthermore I like RPGs.
    We'll agree to disagree on the interpretation of FCII's sidebar, but I assume this is the only reason why you would not Planar Bind a host of creatures at once (beyond also not wanting to break your game)? I can't see any RAW prohibitions against you (or DM controlled opponents) doing so.

    Separately, you're using the following excerpt from Tome of Magic to justify servitude for a fixed number of days not being an open ended task:

    The door to this room is locked (Open Lock DC 35). Inside is a powerful balor demon, forced to serve the Votaries for five hundred years by means of a carefully negotiated greater planar binding spell. Its duties consist of torturing captives and learning whatever facts it can for Crestian (see area 13). The demon’s victims rarely last for long as it immolates them in its excitement. The balor resents its binding, so it does what it can to betray and disrupt its master’s plans. If the PCs do not immediately attack the demon and attempt to parlay first, it quickly divulges all it knows about Crestian and the Votaries, warning the characters that the lich lord has a sphere of annihilation.

    The wording of Planar Binding provides:

    If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions (such as “Wait here” or “Defend this area against attack”), the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free. Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.

    I assume you would say that:

    • the mistake with the above commands was not fixing a duration for the task (e.g. wait here for one million years);
    • if you did assign such a duration, even one far in excess of one day per caster level, the task would no longer be open-ended; and
    • the words 'the creature cannot complete through its own actions' only refer tasks that do not have a fixed end-date, so any end-date for a particular task (no matter how extreme) now means the creature can complete the task through its own actions, even if that task is as broad as 'serve me', or the examples identified above?


    Finally, what is your authority for Surge of Fortune allowing automatic success in an opposed Charisma check? The Rules Compendium similarly provides (at page 29):

    To make a check, roll 1d20 and add the appropriate modifiers. The higher the result, the better. Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 isn’t an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 isn’t an automatic failure.

    It goes on to provide (at page 30):

    Sometimes you try to do something to which no specific skill applies. In these cases, you make an ability check by rolling and adding the appropriate ability modifier. Essentially, you’re making an untrained skill check.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
    We'll agree to disagree on the interpretation of FCII's sidebar, but I assume this is the only reason why you would not Planar Bind a host of creatures at once (beyond also not wanting to break your game)? I can't see any RAW prohibitions against you (or DM controlled opponents) doing so.
    You're correct. There is no limit to how many outsiders you can bind at once. Why it's lauded as one of the most game breaking spells in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
    Separately, you're using the following excerpt from Tome of Magic to justify servitude for a fixed number of days not being an open ended task:

    The wording of Planar Binding provides:

    I assume you would say that:

    • the mistake with the above commands was not fixing a duration for the task (e.g. wait here for one million years);
    • if you did assign such a duration, even one far in excess of one day per caster level, the task would no longer be open-ended; and
    • the words 'the creature cannot complete through its own actions' only refer tasks that do not have a fixed end-date, so any end-date for a particular task (no matter how extreme) now means the creature can complete the task through its own actions, even if that task is as broad as 'serve me', or the examples identified above?
    I guess. There's also the oxford english dictionary definition: "open ended: having no determined limit or boundary." A set time limit is a determined limit or boundary. People debated this for a while when i was learning how to use Planar Binding but I think that quote pretty much settles the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
    Finally, what is your authority for Surge of Fortune allowing automatic success in an opposed Charisma check? The Rules Compendium similarly provides (at page 29):

    To make a check, roll 1d20 and add the appropriate modifiers. The higher the result, the better. Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 isn’t an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 isn’t an automatic failure.

    It goes on to provide (at page 30):

    Sometimes you try to do something to which no specific skill applies. In these cases, you make an ability check by rolling and adding the appropriate ability modifier. Essentially, you’re making an untrained skill check.
    Lets say a creature has 22 charisma. So +6. I have +7 because of stuff like circlet of persuasion, my own charisma, eagle's splendor, etc. With Surge of Fortune my check is 27 100% of the time. No matter what the creature rolls, even if he rolls a natural 20, he can only get 26, and since I'm never gonna roll a 1 this is a 100% success rate. You probably missed the part where I said higher charisma modifier than the creature.

    There's also enervating the outsider but I'm against that. A debuffed outsider is a useless outsider for that day and a character who specializes in planar binding should be able to bind an outsider on the go.
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2018-11-09 at 11:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    I guess. There's also the oxford english dictionary definition: "open ended: having no determined limit or boundary." A set time limit is a determined limit or boundary. People debated this for a while when i was learning how to use Planar Binding but I think that quote pretty much settles the matter.
    What quote? Your dictionary quote, or the wording of the spell?

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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    I guess. There's also the oxford english dictionary definition: "open ended: having no determined limit or boundary." A set time limit is a determined limit or boundary. People debated this for a while when i was learning how to use Planar Binding but I think that quote pretty much settles the matter.
    To be fair, the clause in planar binding mentions it as a task the bound creature cannot complete of it's own volition. Creatures can't progress time any faster, they have no control over the completion of the task, thus it is considered open ended. That said, note that the entry in tome of magic stated that the planar binding was very carefully worded. This alone implies it's not that simple, there must have been something else in the planar binding clause that resulted in the 500 years of servitude. Perhaps it was something like "Torture 30 billion souls, to a maximum served time of 500 years". The torturing of 30 billion souls is certainly a non-open ended task, and something the fiend's capabilities enable him to progress at his own rate. The addition of the "maximum of 500 years" clause seems a bid odd for something like that though. Perhaps the fiend considered it an unreasonable request without the maximum time served.

    Either way, it's not as simple as "Serve me for 500 years". Also note that the fiend isn't serving the caster's whim, he's doing a specific task, and is tasked to do it for 500 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oblivionsmurf View Post
    What quote? Your dictionary quote, or the wording of the spell?
    He's talking about a quote from tome of magic.
    Last edited by Crake; 2018-11-10 at 12:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Planar Binding is SLAVERY

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    To be fair, the clause in planar binding mentions it as a task the bound creature cannot complete of it's own volition. Creatures can't progress time any faster, they have no control over the completion of the task, thus it is considered open ended. That said, note that the entry in tome of magic stated that the planar binding was very carefully worded. This alone implies it's not that simple, there must have been something else in the planar binding clause that resulted in the 500 years of servitude. Perhaps it was something like "Torture 30 billion souls, to a maximum served time of 500 years". The torturing of 30 billion souls is certainly a non-open ended task, and something the fiend's capabilities enable him to progress at his own rate. The addition of the "maximum of 500 years" clause seems a bid odd for something like that though. Perhaps the fiend considered it an unreasonable request without the maximum time served.

    Either way, it's not as simple as "Serve me for 500 years". Also note that the fiend isn't serving the caster's whim, he's doing a specific task, and is tasked to do it for 500 years.
    I like the way you think. You'd make a fine lawyer. In any case, a lawyer will always get what he wants so trivial details like that don't matter much.

    In all honesty though, I don't think any of this matters because the penalty for giving an open-ended task is an immediate chance to escape and the special calling diagram with Dimensional Anchor cast gives the outsider a literal 0% chance to escape, so giving him an immediate 1000 chances of escapes won't matter. He can't escape via SR, he can't escape via teleport, so in the above example, all he can do is roll a 1d20+6 against a DC 15 + 7 (assuming CL 15) + 7 (cha mod) = 29 charisma check, which is impossible to beat even on a natural 20, and as Oblivionsmurf pointed out a natural 20 is not an automatic success.

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