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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    I just figured the people of this world were made to be literally incapable of worshipping Hel or something. I don't know how that would work, but if you want an explanation of how she could literally not have a single one, ever, that just seems like the quickest answer.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    Weird thought.

    When the world was first created and Thor told the Dwarves about the bet, do you suppose that some Dwarves considered maybe Worshipping Hel not so much to get spells, but to maybe get treated a little nicer if they land in her domain? Or did the Dwarves all just go with the "escape via loophole" route?
    "Live with honor and die with honor and go to your proper afterlife" sounds like a much better deal than "Live and die worshipping Hel, who can't grant you any boon, and hope she tortures you less than the others in the afterlife."

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    I just figured the people of this world were made to be literally incapable of worshipping Hel or something. I don't know how that would work, but if you want an explanation of how she could literally not have a single one, ever, that just seems like the quickest answer.
    Yeah, I mean, I just assume that's how it works; I only need so much depth of explanation for plausibility.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    I think a lot of people underestimate (like Hel) what "no cleric among the living"means:
    Undead aren't part of society -> you never meet a cleric of Hel while growing up, no one "spreads her gospel"
    Clerics of other deities do all the "cool" stuff -> if your into divine power you will most likely go there or be nontheistic
    If you like an anology, take marketing: Worship of Hel has 0 advertising. No one promotes it.
    Even if you were interested, Hel can't give you anything as long as you are alive. There is just nothing to gain here. Want to spread the divine wisdom of "Death & Disease" take the 2 domains go nontheistic. This is a self aware world where people can just do that, so why Hel? There is no church to speak of (no benefit that organisations offer) and no fancy stories about Hel.
    Yes there could be the one odd undead which infiltrates society and spreads the word, but given how specific a cleric of Hel is, most likely his cover gets blown up realy fast. And we had the "one in a million" chance for this world with Malack (Undead Cleric hiding among the Living). Maybe the new High Priest of Hel changes that, but that would be in the future, after the Godsmot.
    Lunatics have just more options in a self aware parody world then Hel. And Hel is by far the worst option because there is no benefit but a lot of drawbacks.
    Imagine creating a divine charakter in Stickworld Setting: Player:"Can i be a cleric of Hel?" GM: "Well you need to be undead for that, so you need to die first in the campaign, become undead and than get your free will..." Player "I just take Death an Disease as Domains, thanks".

    Afterlife? Well we see that Roy just goes where his aligment points him. For a dwarf Hel is default. What benefit would bring worshiping Hel for any other Northener? You don't need a god for a afterlife, and if you want an evil afterlife just be evil.

    Which brings another question: Do "no-religious" or "undedicated" people like Roy still produce dedication when they die?(Most likely not, but if yes who gets it?) What about their "soul battery power"? Does this get spread amongst the Pantheon? Does it just power the aligment plane? (Think that's the case)

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    My pet theory is that previous worlds have often created some sort of Necropolis or undead society where enough sentient undead exist to grow a church of Hel and thus when she took the bet she thought that there would be a reduced but still usable pool of beings to draw clerics from. However I would say that the self aware fantasy theme in this world raised adventuring to an unexpectedly high career choice and thus all undead clerics have too short an unlife expectancy to create such a stable society for her.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by ianm1981 View Post
    My pet theory is that previous worlds have often created some sort of Necropolis or undead society where enough sentient undead exist to grow a church of Hel and thus when she took the bet she thought that there would be a reduced but still usable pool of beings to draw clerics from. However I would say that the self aware fantasy theme in this world raised adventuring to an unexpectedly high career choice and thus all undead clerics have too short an unlife expectancy to create such a stable society for her.
    In previous worlds there was no Bet, therefore Hel had clerics among the living. She talks about that during the part when the Bet gets an explaination. The starting point: "what is more of value, clerics or souls?". She goes for souls and ends up where she is now. Therefore no undead society is needed to jump onboard, she just thougth of clerics as something that "uses your power". Could still be possible, but raises the question if undead followers count as worshippers, or if that is something only for living souls.
    Last edited by Zholvar; 2018-11-09 at 05:40 AM.

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zholvar View Post
    In previous worlds there was no Bet, therefore Hel had clerics among the living. She talks about that during the part when the Bet gets an explaination. The starting point: "what is more of value, clerics or souls?". She goes for souls and ends up where she is now. Therefore no undead society is needed to jump onboard, she just thougth of clerics as something that "uses your power". Could still be possible, but raises the question if undead followers count as worshippers, or if that is something only for living souls.
    Um, yeah, he is saying there wasn't a Bet in the previous worlds, but pointing out it's possible Hel had more undead worshippers in previous worlds for whatever reason and thus didn't realize how much the Bet would deprive her of this time.
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    To further the argument that Hel is suffering from lack of advertising, take Malack and Durkon's conversation in 737. Malack is a cleric of a death god and is unsure whether his god's northern counterpart is Hel. If Malack barely remembers Hel, why should anyone else? The Dwarves, who have a vested interest in keeping memories of her horrors alive, would be an exception.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayGriffin View Post
    Um, yeah, he is saying there wasn't a Bet in the previous worlds, but pointing out it's possible Hel had more undead worshippers in previous worlds for whatever reason and thus didn't realize how much the Bet would deprive her of this time.
    Unless undead worshippers provide gods with the same things that living ones do, that doesn't make any sense. And apparently they don't, because according to Thor, Hel is "messed up" now from lack of proper worship.

    It was made pretty clear that Hel took the bet because she didn't realize Thor would actually tell the dwarves about it, and she thought she'd be getting the vast majority of their souls by default.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-11-12 at 04:07 PM.

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    If I had to guess, a random teenager yelling "Praise Hel!" during a goth phase probably doesn't count because it's not a... formal is the wrong word, but I can't think of a better one, worship practice. Maybe worship only counts if it's directed by a priest at an appropriate ceremony. "Ceremony" would have a broad definition and might include things that, to our eyes, look more like parties or just relaxation, but you still need a priest to make it count.

    That doesn't square with the "literally no one has ever worshipped her" statement though.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    If I had to guess, a random teenager yelling "Praise Hel!" during a goth phase probably doesn't count because it's not a... formal is the wrong word, but I can't think of a better one, worship practice. Maybe worship only counts if it's directed by a priest at an appropriate ceremony. "Ceremony" would have a broad definition and might include things that, to our eyes, look more like parties or just relaxation, but you still need a priest to make it count.

    That doesn't square with the "literally no one has ever worshipped her" statement though.
    By priest, do you mean "Divine Spellcaster"? That is the biggest question I have. Why cant some yokels make a Divine magic free cult? Or, if thats not possible, what stops a Rogue from "faking it"?

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    By priest, do you mean "Divine Spellcaster"? That is the biggest question I have. Why cant some yokels make a Divine magic free cult? Or, if thats not possible, what stops a Rogue from "faking it"?
    Well if everbody could do things that Gods need, they wouln't need Clerics in the first place. I'm not exactly shure what's the purpose of druids and rangers in that regard is ...

    Clerics of a deity have a connection to their God, that connection seems to be required for some of the Gods needs (but maybe not everything).
    Why should a rogue (or anybody) run around and tell people about Hel or act as priest? What's to gain? Yeah she/he could use some divine wands (scrolls, staffes etc..) to fake divine spellcasting to pose as a legit priest, but to whom? No established church among the living to infiltrate (usual case), so where's the profit in that? Remember self-aware world, you have better use of your levels and wealth by level than a career which gets you nowhere.
    So either no one bothers with worshipping Hel because there's nothing to gain (no followers to rip of, no spells), or the "lunatic nutballs" aren't capabale of worshipping correcctly because they lack the "divine connection". Both examples seem legit.

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    By priest, do you mean "Divine Spellcaster"? That is the biggest question I have. Why cant some yokels make a Divine magic free cult? Or, if thats not possible, what stops a Rogue from "faking it"?
    I mean, the Adept NPC class is a thing, so you can have a divine caster who isn't a full on PC. But yes, this does get tricky. Maybe a priest has to be properly ordained, but since Hel can't do it directly with living beings and the undead ones keep getting killed off before they can do anything significant, the result is that she can't jumpstart the self-sustaining process the other gods have going. (Not sure what limitations might be preventing her from giving literally every Northern undead a level in Cleric and crossing her fingers, but still.)

    At least, that's the best speculation I can make on why Hel is getting no worship whatsoever, despite sentient beings (and humans in particular) occasionally churning out real nutjobs who blatantly act against their own interests. It does admittedly feel like a bit of a stretch, but it's the best I can come up with.
    Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2018-11-12 at 08:14 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher View Post
    I mean, the Adept NPC class is a thing, so you can have a divine caster who isn't a full on PC. But yes, this does get tricky. Maybe a priest has to be properly ordained, but since Hel can't do it directly with living beings and the undead ones keep getting killed off before they can do anything significant, the result is that she can't jumpstart the self-sustaining process the other gods have going. (Not sure what limitations might be preventing her from giving literally every Northern undead a level in Cleric and crossing her fingers, but still.)

    At least, that's the best speculation I can make on why Hel is getting no worship whatsoever, despite sentient beings (and humans in particular) occasionally churning out real nutjobs who blatantly act against their own interests. It does admittedly feel like a bit of a stretch, but it's the best I can come up with.
    But.. that still leave the Use Magical Device route. She could (maybe with the help of a Demigod and the demigods clerics) create some special items like Malacks Staff or Redcloaks Cloak, then use standard Godly intervention to lead a person sympathetic to her cause who happens to have UMD to the item, and get a living "High Priest" that way.... or at least I think its at least possible...

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    But.. that still leave the Use Magical Device route. She could (maybe with the help of a Demigod and the demigods clerics) create some special items like Malacks Staff or Redcloaks Cloak, then use standard Godly intervention to lead a person sympathetic to her cause who happens to have UMD to the item, and get a living "High Priest" that way.... or at least I think its at least possible...
    True, true. I guess it depends on whether or not "I have an artifact that confers priesthood on the user" counts as the god doing it directly or not.

    Dang, these rules sound thorny.

    And all of this fails to reconcile the disconnect between "no worshipers that count" versus "no worshipers at all".

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    But.. that still leave the Use Magical Device route. She could (maybe with the help of a Demigod and the demigods clerics) create some special items like Malacks Staff or Redcloaks Cloak, then use standard Godly intervention to lead a person sympathetic to her cause who happens to have UMD to the item, and get a living "High Priest" that way.... or at least I think its at least possible...
    What is "standard Godly intervention"? We see Gods having all kinds of problems to communicate even with their Clerics. The "standard" seems to be: Clerics sends question, God can answer. Thor wasn't able to talk to Durkon while he was trapped inside Durkula, TDO sends a message via resurected Jirix. Redcloak explains what Divinition spells are for and a "nonverbal link". Why has Thor to wait untill Durkon dies to give him all this information? Some of it could have been usefull before the race to the last Gate. (Yeah Drama could be a factor for this)

    We don't know the Stickworld rules for Artifacts, it could be that the Grimson Mantle is a violation of pantheon rules, or maybe it's one per God allowed|possible and Hels one is out there.
    The UMD route is possible to a certain degree, but why burn a lot of Money and or XP if you could just take a few levels in "nontheistic death|disease cleric" and be a better cleric? What has anybody to gain from that huge investment, who allready has access to that kind of power (Ranks in UMD and a bunch of money)?
    Is the assumption that there is a bunch of midlevel rogues/warlocks(other umd users) that desprately want to be clerics of Hel feasible? A Godess that (most likely) can't answer your prayer, can't give you spells? Those "nutjobs" need a good worked out agenda/planning, that covers a lot of casses(you have to mimic a cleric fulltime, not just a few times like the normal infiltration cliche), a good portion of personal power (and money/exp) and a really high dedication to praise a absent godess in a world where even rocks can give you real power. Possible yes, but very unlikely. Not everything that is possible happens.
    Last edited by Zholvar; 2018-11-13 at 02:28 AM.

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    What if anyone that does worship her inevitably becomes an undead somehow? Like maybe it's part of the bet that any living mortal who worships her is farted to become undead.

    She said she's had clerics among the undead and just most of them were killed, it's possible that "literally no one has ever worshipped her" was referring to living people, but that's not literally no one imo, so it seems like hyperbole anyway.

    It could be that undead belief and worship aren't particularly nourishing.

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by Corwin Icewolf View Post
    What if anyone that does worship her inevitably becomes an undead somehow? Like maybe it's part of the bet that any living mortal who worships her is farted to become undead.

    She said she's had clerics among the undead and just most of them were killed, it's possible that "literally no one has ever worshipped her" was referring to living people, but that's not literally no one imo, so it seems like hyperbole anyway.

    It could be that undead belief and worship aren't particularly nourishing.
    1. Not sure that's possible.
    2. I'd think it's the fact that their population is regularly thinned by hordes of ultra-powerful meatheads, also known as "adventures".

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Maybe in stickworld “worship” has a specific meaning, and is part of a ritual that must be performed by a cleric.

    Like, if you stand I a room and say “I love Pizza. All praise Pizza”, you’re not really worshipping Pizza. But if you’re hanging out Sir Pepperonis the 5th level cleric of Pizza and say “We Love Pizza. Bless you, Anxhovies!” that does count as worship because a cleric is involved.

    Or maybe the bet is more complicated than we understand, and Hel literally can’t get power from worship. People can do the rituals, but since she doesn’t get power it’s not technically worship.

    Or perhaps the Dwarves have a Hel Slayer prestige class where they literally assassinate anyone who worships Hel.

    Or it could be that she is literally a forgotten god among all but those with very high lore, and it’s just a coincidence that nobody worships her.

    Or maybe the first sacrifice she demands of her worshippers is that they should be dead (like all of odins priests having only one eye), and she just hasn’t thought through the implications yet.

    Or maybe everyone in stick world saw the marvel movies and they worship “Hela” instead of “Hel”, and all the worship points bounce off into the “undeliverable mail” queue.

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    1. Not sure that's possible.
    2. I'd think it's the fact that their population is regularly thinned by hordes of ultra-powerful meatheads, also known as "adventures".
    I mean, it was a theory, but I can't see any reason the gods shouldn't be able to add a curse to the bet such that anyone who worships hel inevitably becomes undead soon after. We've seen more impressive things in comic, like a low level kobold that can see the future with perfect accuracy.

    To the second point, true, but Thor said gods need worship, etc from mortals, and undead usually aren't quite considered mortals, even if I would consider sentient undead people. Just like outsiders usually aren't considered mortals.
    Last edited by JennTora; 2018-11-15 at 12:03 AM.

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Maybe her domain been linked to the negative energy plane, and worshipping her hurts and eventually kills you.

    Maybe nobody wants to worship her because she’s petulant and mean.

    Maybe she doesn’t want anyone to worship her because she’s throwing a temper tantrum for the last 1,000 years.

    Maybe for a god to get “worship points”, the worshipper us to wear a holy symbol. Maybe for Hel the holy symbol is undead flesh. Maybe nobody but the undead us any undead flesh available.

    Maybe there’s more to the bet that we don’t know about, and all Hel’s “worship points” are redirected to the rest of the northern pantheon.

    Maybe there are worshippers, and Rich misspoke.

    Maybe Loki tricks all of her worshippers into worshipping one of his other children instead, like maybe that weirdo eight legged horse.

    Maybe the other gods have somehow warded Hel’s domain to reject any worship points directed her way.

    Maybe C3PO got a little fatter every movie, but we didn’t notice because everyone is getting fatter.

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Maybe C3PO got a little fatter every movie, but we didn’t notice because everyone is getting fatter.
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    How can he get fat?
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by Corwin Icewolf View Post
    I mean, it was a theory, but I can't see any reason the gods shouldn't be able to add a curse to the bet such that anyone who worships hel inevitably becomes undead soon after. We've seen more impressive things in comic, like a low level kobold that can see the future with perfect accuracy.

    To the second point, true, but Thor said gods need worship, etc from mortals, and undead usually aren't quite considered mortals, even if I would consider sentient undead people. Just like outsiders usually aren't considered mortals.
    Thats another sticky point (that probably needs it's own thread)... what about the goblinoids? Who was getting their Worship/Dedication before TDO? Did all the souls just transfer to TDO as soon as he appeared? What about the Bugbears that only "worship" on special occasions?

    I think the last 2 pages clarified some things...

    (1) Im pretty sure Loki knew what was going to happen to Odin on this world, and purposely tried to balance the world out by Nerfing Hel (although that puts into question his parenting AND his alignment, I thought he was Evil) so loopholes are few and hard to spot... but

    (2) While Thor is very much the type to stick to the god rules (this last strip explains that), Hel specifically explains that she is trying to exploit the rules in order to get the other gods to blink, so this can't have been her only plan in the past...there must be a few more loopholes...

    Here's a funny one, once she knew that she could get ordained clerics this way, why didnt she command every negative plane spirit that came from her domain to try to attack and turn any low-level divine spellcaster they come into contact with? She could have started a religion that way....

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    Thats another sticky point (that probably needs it's own thread)... what about the goblinoids? Who was getting their Worship/Dedication before TDO? Did all the souls just transfer to TDO as soon as he appeared? What about the Bugbears that only "worship" on special occasions?

    I think the last 2 pages clarified some things...

    (1) Im pretty sure Loki knew what was going to happen to Odin on this world, and purposely tried to balance the world out by Nerfing Hel (although that puts into question his parenting AND his alignment, I thought he was Evil) so loopholes are few and hard to spot... but

    (2) While Thor is very much the type to stick to the god rules (this last strip explains that), Hel specifically explains that she is trying to exploit the rules in order to get the other gods to blink, so this can't have been her only plan in the past...there must be a few more loopholes...

    Here's a funny one, once she knew that she could get ordained clerics this way, why didnt she command every negative plane spirit that came from her domain to try to attack and turn any low-level divine spellcaster they come into contact with? She could have started a religion that way....
    Word of Giant is that the goblinoids worshipped no one before the Dark One.

    I don't think the last strip makes either of your points as certain as you seem to think it does.

    Your point about Hel misses she didn't need low-level clerics; she had those and they always got slayed as the boss of a low-level dungeon. Durkon was special because he was already very high-level. More to the point, there was no guarantee that Durkula would actually worship her just because she created him, he and all the other vampires chose to do so of their own free-will.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-11-15 at 09:55 PM.

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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by Corwin Icewolf View Post
    What if anyone that does worship her inevitably becomes an undead somehow? Like maybe it's part of the bet that any living mortal who worships her is farted to become undead.
    Becoming undead is undesirable enough, but that's a really gross way to do it.


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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    (1) Im pretty sure Loki knew what was going to happen to Odin on this world, and purposely tried to balance the world out by Nerfing Hel (although that puts into question his parenting AND his alignment, I thought he was Evil) so loopholes are few and hard to spot... but
    Let's assume that's true. Why do you automatically ascribe altruistic motives? He could have realized what would happen to Odin and then hobbled Hel to eliminate more of the competition for top god in the next world.
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    I figure the simplest solution is the awnser.

    she DOES have worshipers, but they're so few and far inbetween that they're impossibly rare. and they can't become clerics under her, so the word of Hel is almost never spread, making converting new worshipers impossible. She can really only rely on individuals making a conscious decision to worship her due to events in their individual lives, and can't count on churches or missionaries to convert people en mass for her.
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    I figure the simplest solution is the awnser.

    she DOES have worshipers, but they're so few and far inbetween that they're impossibly rare.
    I can get why people would try to come up with a mechanic for how it is Hel has no worshipers, even though I don't personally need it explained for my suspension of disbelief. What I don't understand is why people are trying to come up with ways to explain why when Rich said the below, he meant something else:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    No one worships Hel, as was mentioned here. That means literally not one single living person, ever.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I can get why people would try to come up with a mechanic for how it is Hel has no worshipers, even though I don't personally need it explained for my suspension of disbelief. What I don't understand is why people are trying to come up with ways to explain why when Rich said the below, he meant something else:
    Simple, the Giant is world-building right now, and as he has been doing that he has created opportunity for questioning previous strips. Even off-strip comments don't necessarily stop questions from arising when you take the strips themselves into consideration.

    You can try handwave Hel being at absolutely 0 (minus her new Greg spawns) by saying "Series of Dumb God Laws", but since Hel has already (a) found one loophole in-strip (b) had thousands of years to find more and (c) is actively trying to subvert said "Dumb God Laws", then you have to admit that there must be reasonable people out there that question the absoluteness of 0 worshippers, even if you are (1) a reasonable person and (2) not part of the previously designated group. The strips just have not given us a conclusive answer as to why absolute 0 is maintained.

    Heck, even the whole "all clerics die as low-level dungeon bosses" seems a stretch if you consider that Malack (not her cleric, but still) managed to never let himself become a dungeon Boss. Heck, he was hanging around the Living and apparently only Tarquins group knew he was a vampire....You mean she couldn't commune with the others like she did with Durkon and tell them not to hole themselves up in a dungeon, but to gain experience by working as a low-level diplomat for some kingdom or something?

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    Heck, even the whole "all clerics die as low-level dungeon bosses" seems a stretch if you consider that Malack (not her cleric, but still) managed to never let himself become a dungeon Boss. Heck, he was hanging around the Living and apparently only Tarquins group knew he was a vampire....You mean she couldn't commune with the others like she did with Durkon and tell them not to hole themselves up in a dungeon, but to gain experience by working as a low-level diplomat for some kingdom or something?
    I assume Hel and Nergal have different circumstances, different priorities, and different personalities. Like they're two different people.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2018-11-16 at 05:19 PM.
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