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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    He always had the ME legendarium as a background for all his works, I think--note that the swords Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting were explicitly stated as having come from Gondolin before its fall when Elrond examines them in The Hobbit (although it's never clearly explained how those swords managed to end up in a troll cave hundreds of miles from where Beleriand used to be, or why goblins still fear them so much several thousand years after Gondolin's fall).
    Early drafts of The Hobbit placed its timeframe much closer to the events of The Silmarillion than did Tolkien's published version of the timeline. The deeds of Beren and Luthien in particular were mentioned as if they only took place a short time ago.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That's from the revised editions of the Hobbit, the ones that don't mention China or lampposts and where Gollum does not willingly give Bilbo his ring after losing the riddle contest*.
    For some reason I'd completely forgotten that the editions of the Hobbit circulating today are majorly revised from the original tale, sorry about that...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    For some reason I'd completely forgotten that the editions of the Hobbit circulating today are majorly revised from the original tale, sorry about that...
    It's not a problem.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That's from the revised editions of the Hobbit, the ones that don't mention China or lampposts and where Gollum does not willingly give Bilbo his ring after losing the riddle contest*. The Hobbit really wasn't part of ME originally. He only dragged it into it when his editor insisted he wrote a sequel to the Hobbit rather than the Silmarillion.

    *which is why lotr mentions several times that Bilbo wasn't honest about how he got his ring.
    China...? I wasn't expecting that one.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCacaobean View Post
    China...? I wasn't expecting that one.
    My first assumption is that theyre referencing the tableware type China, ie plates and stuff. "fine china" so to speak. You know, porcelain.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2018-11-14 at 09:16 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm actually reading through the Hobbit right now, and I'm intrigued about the original version.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'm actually reading through the Hobbit right now, and I'm intrigued about the original version.
    The Wikipedia article on "The Hobbit" says that the only changes between the first and second editions are the chapter "Riddles in the Dark", which Tolkien sent a revised version of to his publishers and was quite surprised to see the revised version in the new book! Third edition was 1966, which had some small textual alterations elsewhere.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    My first assumption is that theyre referencing the tableware type China, ie plates and stuff. "fine china" so to speak. You know, porcelain.
    Oh, I didn't know that term. English is weird sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    The Wikipedia article on "The Hobbit" says that the only changes between the first and second editions are the chapter "Riddles in the Dark", which Tolkien sent a revised version of to his publishers and was quite surprised to see the revised version in the new book! Third edition was 1966, which had some small textual alterations elsewhere.
    My quick google search didn't help either...

    Fyraltari! We demand an explanation!
    Last edited by SilverCacaobean; 2018-11-14 at 10:36 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCacaobean View Post
    Oh, I didn't know that term. English is weird sometimes.
    Hardly unique to English. We've been naming stuff from the place someone claims it comes from in every language I know of for millennia. Consider the turkey, so called in English because someone marketed as a Turkish hen. The same poor avian creature is called "(Chicken) of India" in French, and "Roman rooster" in Arab.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    I do think the suggestion that Tolkien "plagiarizes" from himself holds water.

    Glorfindel makes an appearance in LotR. It is a bit weird, because it could have been any old elf warrior of renown -- he is not actually important to the tale, but Tolkien picked Glorfindel because...he liked Glorfindel. At this point, it has been rationalized as a blessed return, but I doubt that was Tolkien's original thinking. He put in Glorfindel because he wanted to.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverCacaobean View Post
    Oh, I didn't know that term. English is weird sometimes.



    My quick google search didn't help either...

    Fyraltari! We demand an explanation!
    While I can't remember where exactly I heard/read the specific example of "lampposts and China" (although I do rememebr it), I don't own a copy of the original edition of The Hobbit, so don't take my words as gospel. I remain sure however that the Hobbit wasn't supposed to be set within the Legendarium. I mean even the revised editions don't quite fit .(matches? clocks? coffe? talking purse!?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The same poor avian creature is called "(Chicken) of India" in French.
    Bloody hell, I thought that was just a coincidence! You just blew my mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    But what about lamp posts? Is that a sneaky reference to Narnia?
    I think it's a reference to lammpposts personnally.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I think it's a reference to lammpposts personnally.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jwhouk View Post
    Occam called. He wants his razor back.
    The 80s called. They want that joke back.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jwhouk View Post
    Occam called. He wants his razor back.
    But I'm using it!
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The 80s called. They want that joke back.
    The jerk store called. They’re running out of you!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    Glorfindel makes an appearance in LotR. It is a bit weird, because it could have been any old elf warrior of renown -- he is not actually important to the tale, but Tolkien picked Glorfindel because...he liked Glorfindel. At this point, it has been rationalized as a blessed return, but I doubt that was Tolkien's original thinking. He put in Glorfindel because he wanted to.
    Or...it could just be a different elf who happens to have the same name? There's nothing in the text beyond his name to link him to the original, especially what with the original being very dead.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Or...it could just be a different elf who happens to have the same name? There's nothing in the text beyond his name to link him to the original, especially what with the original being very dead.
    The Silmarillion states that all Elves eventually come back to life, and Tolkien confirmed that both Glorfindels were one and the same.

    Remember how he appeared to Frodo as a being of Light within the Invisible World? That is because he had seen the Light of the Two Trees.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Or...it could just be a different elf who happens to have the same name? There's nothing in the text beyond his name to link him to the original, especially what with the original being very dead.
    That possibility was dismissed by Tolkien out of hand when he stopped to actually examine the question, but at the moment of writing, it doesn't seem like he thought about it much. However, I don't think it was a matter of liking Glorfindel the character and wanting him to be in the story, so much as liking Glorfindel the name and it not having been used in decades, in a text that he didn't hope to publish anytime soon. That's the same reason why many Gondorian characters bear recycled Elvish names.

    Incidentally, I really like the way Tolkien's mind worked: examining the problem of Glorfindel led to some extremely interesting texts on the nature of Elvish reincarnation.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Going internet history is that C.S. Lewis put the Lampost in Narnia mainly because Tolkein satated "There can be no Lamposts in Fantasy."

    J.R.R. Tolkien said that no good fantasy would have ELECTRIC lamps in it. You can read this in his essay On Fairy-Stories, available in PDF form here:

    The electric street-lamp may indeed be ignored, simply because it is so insignificant and transient. Fairy-stories, at any rate, have many more permanent and fundamental things to talk about. Lightning, for example. The escapist is not so subservient to the whims of evanescent fashion as these opponents. He does not make things (which it may be quite rational to regard as bad) his masters or his gods by worshipping them as inevitable, even “inexorable.” And his opponents, so easily contemptuous, have no guarantee that he will stop there: he might rouse men to pull down the street-lamps. Escapism has another and even wickeder face: Reaction.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    The jerk store called. They’re running out of you!
    Yeah, well, I had sex with your wife!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    So does this mean Elan's shenanigans are Gods Approved?

    Good gods... if that's the case...
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JumboWheat01 View Post
    So does this mean Elan's shenanigans are Gods Approved?

    Good gods... if that's the case...
    It means that Elan does get his happy ending!
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, the reveals DO tend to be fun.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...6#post15476516


    I know I'm stealing this from someone else. But it's SO FUNNY

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The Silmarillion states that all Elves eventually come back to life, and Tolkien confirmed that both Glorfindels were one and the same.

    Remember how he appeared to Frodo as a being of Light within the Invisible World? That is because he had seen the Light of the Two Trees.
    Didn't know that Tolkien had confirmed they were one and the same, although I should have remembered the bit about Elves reincarnating. However, "having seen the light of the Two Trees" isn't actually all that distinctive for an Elf, considering a large number of them went to Valinor and then came back to Middle-earth to fight Morgoth in Beleriand.
    Last edited by factotum; 2018-11-15 at 03:51 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Didn't know that Tolkien had confirmed they were one and the same, although I should have remembered the bit about Elves reincarnating. However, "having seen the light of the Two Trees" isn't actually all that distinctive for an Elf, considering a large number of them went to Valinor and then came back to Middle-earth to fight Morgoth in Beleriand.
    Most of those died or left back again when the Doom of Mandos was lifted at the end of the First Age (roughly 6,000 years prior to the Lord of the Rings) and most of those who remained (like Gil-Galad) where born in Middle-Earth. There' is a good chance that Glorfindel and Galadriel (and Celeborn depending on which of his backstories you like best) are the sole remaining Calaquendi in Middle-Earth by the time of the Lord of the Ring.

    EDIT: On Tolkien confirming Glorfindel being one and the same, my source is the fan site Tolkiendil (in french), who credits History of Middle-Earth, volume 12: the people of Middle-Earth as their source. I can't confirm myself since for some reason there are no translation of the HoME books after the sixth.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-11-15 at 04:00 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Personally I think both Banjo and Giggles lack the Dedication and Souls to be proper gods yet, though they might have enough Belief and Worship.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Personally I think both Banjo and Giggles lack the Dedication and Souls to be proper gods yet, though they might have enough Belief and Worship.
    I can’t believe how many people here are goddists. Banjo is a true and proper god, even if your closed minded prejudice prevents you from seeing the truth.

    Next you’ll tell me that Pluto isn’t a “real” planet, or that Cheetos brand Cheezie Corn Meal Puffs aren’t “real” cheese.
    Last edited by Dion; 2018-11-15 at 09:51 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I can’t believe how many people here are goddists. Banjo is a true and proper god, even if your closed minded prejudice prevents you from seeing the truth.

    Next you’ll tell me that Pluto isn’t a “real” planet, or that Cheetos brand Cheezie Corn Meal Puffs aren’t “real” cheese.
    Wouldn't a goddist be someone who thinks Banjo & Giggles are gods?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Wouldn't a goddist be someone who thinks Banjo & Giggles are gods?
    No, because I coined the term “goddist” with the intention for it to be a derogatory term.

    Why would I be derogatory toward people who are big strong intelligent winners, because they believe that Banjo is a god?

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