New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 39
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Monoclass Parties

    For the sake of fun, which classes do you think would fare better or worse in a party composed entirely of that class? I presume a well-rounded adventuring environment (exploration and social interaction, but with plenty of combat). What compositions do you think get the most value for each class? The restrictions I used when thinking of my ideal parties for each class (which you may adopt or reject at leisure) are:
    • Four party members
    • No subclass stacking
    • No unearthed arcana
    • Mid-to high level (I use 10)
    • No multi-classing


    Those conditions assumed, here are my thoughts:

    Barbarians: Ancestral Guardian forms the "main tank" of this group, mitigating the effect of everybody reckless attacking all the time. Zealot is my choice for pure damage dealing, an Eagle-Totem Warrior for a high-mobility initiator, and Storm Herald for much-needed AoE. This party is highly vulnerable to casters and fancy party scenarios.

    Bards: This party will have everybody tripping over one another to be the party face. College of Swords can provide a much-needed damage dealer. College of Valor comes closest to being able to tank effectively, with Whispers and Lore being my choices for dedicated supports.

    Clerics: Many Cleric domains are already "like X class, except a cleric." My choice would be Forge Domain for a Fightery Cleric, Trickery Domain for a Rogue-y Cleric, Arcana Domain for a Wizardy Cleric, and Grave Domain for a Cleric-y Cleric. Have fun vaporizing the undead, and casting lots of Spiritual Weapons!

    Druids: An all Druid party plays best as "pile up as many buffs as possible on the Moon Druid and watch him go to town." As such, Shepherd, Dreams, and Land (Grassland) work very effectively. Plenty of utility forms means stealth and wilderness navigation will be a breeze.

    Fighters: Cavaliers are the most effective tanks, IMO. A Battlemaster with maneuvers like Rally, Maneuvering Attack, and Commander's Strike will really shine here, and even the little bit of casting brought by the Eldritch Knight will go a long way here. For a dedicated Nova, my pick would be an archer Samurai.

    Monks: For much needed ranged, non-physical damage, Sun Souls become quite nice. The unique spells available to Shadow Monks make them a good pick, and Kensei with their extra AC are the closest thing this party has to a tank. Open Hand fills out a good all-rounder slot. This party will never be stopped by walls or moats!

    Paladins: The obvious weaknesses of this party are lack of good mobility and ranged damage. The former can be circumvented by a pack of Divine Steeds, but there's no real way around the latter. Still, all those auras, though. My picks would be Ancients, Vengeance, Crown, Conquest.

    Rangers: Fantastic bunch out of combat; in combat, so-so. I've only just now begun to realize that as a sneaky skirmishing class, rangers actually don't have that many mobility options. Beast Master actually improves here relative to a balanced party. I would take BM, Hunter, Gloom Stalker, and Horizon Walker

    Rogues: Now we're talking. Rogue is my favorite class, so I'm almost biased enough to overlook how hard this party is going to struggle in confined quarters without ample hiding spaces. Still, Swashbuckler makes a good pseudo-tank past 9th level (in addition to still being the strongest Roguish archetype anyway), see above remarks on Eldritch Knights for why Arcane Trickster is great, and the Assassin's finicky main feature becomes a lot more reliable when your entire party is as sneaky as you are. I'd take Inquisitive for maximum scouting value. And with this many expertise, you can afford to spend them on some more niche skills.

    Sorcerer: My pick for the weakest party; they lack the versatility of other mono-caster parties, and the reliability of non-caster parties. Divine Soul provides some invaluable support casting, and Shadow Sorcerers can be pretty resilient. Fill out the rest with Dragon Bloodline and Wild Magic, and hope for the best.

    Warlocks: Very strong if built properly. Hexblade tank, Celestial support, Fiend nukes, and your personal favorite among Fiend and Archfey for control casting (I prefer Fey.) Who needs long rests?

    Wizards: A combination of a Conjurer and Necromancer makes up for the obvious flaw of the Wizard party squishiness. I'd combo it with an Evoker, who can safely dump his AoE's on the frontline of zombie slaves and summoned demons, and an Illusionist to cap it all off with all that delicious control-caster goodness.
    The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.

    What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.

    Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.

    Nothing is given so generously as advice.

    We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.

    -Francois, Duc de La Rochefoucauld

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Man_Over_Game's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Between SEA and PDX.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    I think you might be forgetting the SCAG additions.

    Way of the Long Death Monk is much closer to a tank than Kensei.

    Bladesinger is a melee-specialized Wizard with extremely high AC and mobility while using melee attacks. Very important for a Wizard-only team

    Arcana Cleric is basically a Cleric with all of the utility spells you get from being a Wizard, so it's a pretty solid addition if you don't have an arcane caster, and is insanely versatile with Ritual Caster (Wizard).
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2018-11-15 at 01:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas I’ve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. You’re a gem of the community here.

    5th Edition Homebrewery
    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    A group full of Warlocks would also be exceptionally strong, as with the modularity of the class there could be little-to-no overlap.

    Hexblades (and Green Flame Blade Celestials) fight well on the frontline. Fiend warlocks serve as strong AoE blasters, while Celestials offer emergency healing and support. Archfey and GOO Warlocks have several potent control options to shape the battlefield. One warlock picks up Pact of the Tome for ritual casting, while another warlock picks up Pact of the Chain for the ultimate scouting utility.

    And even when there is overlap in features, their features aren’t redundant most of he time. You can never have too many agonizing blasts, and the group can make incredibly efficient use of Darkness if they all have Devil Sight. Repelling Blast spam can be heavily abused with AoEs like Evards Black Tentacles and Hunger of Hadar (which Warlocks can also see through). Two Chain familiars can go scouting together to pull more elaborate shenanigans (sabotage, giving each other advantage on Stealth/Deceptions/Persuasion/Insight checks, working together to counter their low individual strength).

    Plus the group would have a much easier time planning short rests and their spell slot usage, since they’re all on the same page.
    Last edited by Trustypeaches; 2018-11-15 at 01:32 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2018

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    All Wizard Party do you realize what youve DONE!

    Abjuror, Battlemage, Blade singer are your Front line.

    Bear in mind Wizards are usually balanced around 2 spells per level up plus a few rare scrolls. Assuming a party of 4 on each level up each wizard takes 2 unique spells and shares his 2 with the Others.
    So after each level up ( and a few days in town) each wizard gains 8 spells per level.

    Oh BOI

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    I think you might be forgetting the SCAG additions.

    Way of the Long Death Monk is much closer to a tank than Kensei.

    Bladesinger is a melee-specialized Wizard with extremely high AC and mobility while using melee attacks. Very important for a Wizard-only team

    Arcana Cleric is basically a Cleric with all of the utility spells you get from being a Wizard, so it's a pretty solid addition if you don't have an arcane caster, and is insanely versatile with Ritual Caster (Wizard).
    Didn't forget about Bladesinger. However, I would argue that what the Wizard-only party requires is a frontline, and the Bladesinger is most definitely not that, he's a skirmisher. Excellent in a party with an existent, frontline character like a fighter, not so great at tanking himself, since he still has a Wizard's HP, no matter how great his AC is.

    I did pick Arcana Cleric for the Cleric-only party.

    On reviewing Long Death Monks, they are actually much tanker than Kensei. Agreed.
    The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.

    What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.

    Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.

    Nothing is given so generously as advice.

    We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.

    -Francois, Duc de La Rochefoucauld

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jaappleton's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    All Clerics is the best monoclass party, IMO. Knowledge and Trickery can team up to be a Quasi-Rogue, between Pass Without Trace and Proficiency in anything whenever you want. Light and Tempest can blast.

    And they'll all proficient in Medium armor and shields, so AC isn't an issue, and they can all heal.

    Have them all pop Spirit Guardians and just stand near enemies, taking the Dodge action every round. Its just a blender of death.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2017

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Another thread like this showed up awhile back.

    The all Sorceror party will be fine once they hit level 5.
    Multiple empowered Fireballs will clear encounters in a hurry.
    Before that, Subtle Spells from the Dark will devastate a lot of lesser foes.


    In the same way, an all Rogue party could be fun to slip past a group of enemies.

    My current group is very Fighter heavy, and they seem to have minimal trouble just steam rolling and brute forcing through things. Some of them have even specialized in lock picking and diplomacy pretty effectively.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    annoyed Re: Monoclass Parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    For the sake of fun, which classes do you think would fare better or worse in a party composed entirely of that class? I presume a well-rounded adventuring environment (exploration and social interaction, but with plenty of combat). What compositions do you think get the most value for each class? The restrictions I used when thinking of my ideal parties for each class (which you may adopt or reject at leisure) are:
    • Four party members
    • No subclass stacking
    • No unearthed arcana
    • Mid-to high level (I use 10)
    • No multi-classing

    Spoiler: Spoilered for length
    Show

    Those conditions assumed, here are my thoughts:

    Barbarians: Ancestral Guardian forms the "main tank" of this group, mitigating the effect of everybody reckless attacking all the time. Zealot is my choice for pure damage dealing, an Eagle-Totem Warrior for a high-mobility initiator, and Storm Herald for much-needed AoE. This party is highly vulnerable to casters and fancy party scenarios.

    Bards: This party will have everybody tripping over one another to be the party face. College of Swords can provide a much-needed damage dealer. College of Valor comes closest to being able to tank effectively, with Whispers and Lore being my choices for dedicated supports.

    Clerics: Many Cleric domains are already "like X class, except a cleric." My choice would be Forge Domain for a Fightery Cleric, Trickery Domain for a Rogue-y Cleric, Arcana Domain for a Wizardy Cleric, and Grave Domain for a Cleric-y Cleric. Have fun vaporizing the undead, and casting lots of Spiritual Weapons!

    Druids: An all Druid party plays best as "pile up as many buffs as possible on the Moon Druid and watch him go to town." As such, Shepherd, Dreams, and Land (Grassland) work very effectively. Plenty of utility forms means stealth and wilderness navigation will be a breeze.

    Fighters: Cavaliers are the most effective tanks, IMO. A Battlemaster with maneuvers like Rally, Maneuvering Attack, and Commander's Strike will really shine here, and even the little bit of casting brought by the Eldritch Knight will go a long way here. For a dedicated Nova, my pick would be an archer Samurai.

    Monks: For much needed ranged, non-physical damage, Sun Souls become quite nice. The unique spells available to Shadow Monks make them a good pick, and Kensei with their extra AC are the closest thing this party has to a tank. Open Hand fills out a good all-rounder slot. This party will never be stopped by walls or moats!

    Paladins: The obvious weaknesses of this party are lack of good mobility and ranged damage. The former can be circumvented by a pack of Divine Steeds, but there's no real way around the latter. Still, all those auras, though. My picks would be Ancients, Vengeance, Crown, Conquest.

    Rangers: Fantastic bunch out of combat; in combat, so-so. I've only just now begun to realize that as a sneaky skirmishing class, rangers actually don't have that many mobility options. Beast Master actually improves here relative to a balanced party. I would take BM, Hunter, Gloom Stalker, and Horizon Walker

    Rogues: Now we're talking. Rogue is my favorite class, so I'm almost biased enough to overlook how hard this party is going to struggle in confined quarters without ample hiding spaces. Still, Swashbuckler makes a good pseudo-tank past 9th level (in addition to still being the strongest Roguish archetype anyway), see above remarks on Eldritch Knights for why Arcane Trickster is great, and the Assassin's finicky main feature becomes a lot more reliable when your entire party is as sneaky as you are. I'd take Inquisitive for maximum scouting value. And with this many expertise, you can afford to spend them on some more niche skills.

    Sorcerer: My pick for the weakest party; they lack the versatility of other mono-caster parties, and the reliability of non-caster parties. Divine Soul provides some invaluable support casting, and Shadow Sorcerers can be pretty resilient. Fill out the rest with Dragon Bloodline and Wild Magic, and hope for the best.

    Warlocks: Very strong if built properly. Hexblade tank, Celestial support, Fiend nukes, and your personal favorite among Fiend and Archfey for control casting (I prefer Fey.) Who needs long rests?

    Wizards: A combination of a Conjurer and Necromancer makes up for the obvious flaw of the Wizard party squishiness. I'd combo it with an Evoker, who can safely dump his AoE's on the frontline of zombie slaves and summoned demons, and an Illusionist to cap it all off with all that delicious control-caster goodness.
    Hi!
    Well, I have a very different opinion than you on relative strengths and weaknesses for your given parameters. Note that I consider that feats are allowed since not explicitely excluded.

    Which immediately means, as a first, that ANY party can have access to potentially all rituals (or at least 90%), provided of course a nice DM, thanks to the Ritual Caster feat. So consider that in any party, at least one takes it: Bard for Wizards, Wizard for everyone else.

    Also, such evaluation would be extremely different at different levels. All classes don't get spike features at the same level.

    So I'll put my own 1-20 list, with level-based nuances when needed (probably 1-10, 11-16 and 17-20 splits).

    Spoiler: Bard: Swords/Glamour/Lore/Whispers
    Show
    Bard: easy peasy: Swords, Glamour, Lore, Whispers.
    Lore is playing the offensive caster, Glamour the support, Swords being the main frontliner, and Whispers playing the Rogue at mid-distance, closing in when needed.
    At least Lore and one other will pick Counterspell. The others can pick spells suited to their role.

    This party plays consistently well from level 1 to 20, with a big spike boost at level 10 (level 5 Magic Secrets), 14 (get Simulacrum) and 18 (get Wish).
    It's probably in the top 3, at least in the top 5. Reasons for that? Archetype bringing really different strengths, Magic Secrets, extreme reliability on Counterspell.

    Spoiler: Barbarian: Bear/StormHerald/Zealot/AncestralGuardian
    Show
    Barbarian: by far the "worst", as in, the less susceptible to fail in specific contexts, considering it's an all-out melee party. So they lose 80% effectiveness against ranged attackers and casters.
    It's not all that bad though:
    FullBear Barbarian will be the main frontliner (Wolf as 1st could be nice too, but between Reckless Attack and Shoving at advantage I'd say it's really oversized). Sentinel + PAM.
    Then you'll have Storm Herald along, picking Tundra for THP at low level (extra survivability) and "free Sentinel" at higher level, also picking Healer and possibly Shield Master.
    As the third guy you'll have the Zealot with Inspiring Leader and Mage Slayer for decent spike damage and once/long rest "oh s*** nasty spell coming" feature.
    And the last guy will actually be the Ancestral Guardian with Sharpshooter, Martial Adept (Trip Attack for flyers) and Dual Wielder (later), using light hammers then later javelins to debuff melee enemies or try and take care of flyers.
    This party will suffer extremely against some enemies until it goes past level 10... But as far as melee go, nobody can beat them.
    Between Bear's lvl 14 "disadvantage against anyone else than me", Storm Herald's "stay right there", and lvl 3's Ancestral "disadvantage on first target hit", you can really make enemies crazy. Add on that the Tundra's extra THP and Ancestor's "reduce damage as reaction", and Inspiring Leader's pre-fight buff for the first round of exchanging hurt, and this is a hellishly reslient party.
    And when they reach level 20 the unlimited rage boosts their efficiency exponentially.

    This party is the "worst" in terms of "winning whatever challenge", but can still be fun (will simply force party to actually *think* to avoid things outside their scope).

    Spoiler: Clerics: Tempest/Grave/Knowledge/ Trickery|Forge|Arcana|Nature
    Show
    Cleric:
    Honestly there are many great combinations, so I'll just present one.
    First, you'll have the Tempest and Grave. Why?
    - Tempest brings a great deal of vision-based control, as well as maximized damage: obviously he will pick Magic Initiate: Wizard for Find Familiar and Booming Blade. Stack Warcaster and whatever else you'd like to up defense or offense (a Martial Adept: Precision would be perfect for nova attack). This one will be the frontliner, using Spirit Guardians when needed.
    - Grave sweetens the deal with bonus action spare the dying and more importantly the "vulnerability to next instance of damage". The ability to reduce critical to normal is also very important. This one will play with mainly Spiritual Weapon and/or cantrips and/or Guiding Bolt while keeping a Bless up for everyone and being the prime dispender of emergency healing.
    - Knowledge is the obvious third: being able to be good in whatever is needed is the best feature a Cleric could have in an all-Cleric party. He would pick Spell Sniper: Thorns Whip to keep people inside a friendly's Spirit Guardians and otherwise stay at mid-range, also picking the Healer feat to help friends and Ritual Caster (obviously why no?). Either he or Grave could keep up a Warding Bond too.

    For the last, it's really hard to decide between Trickery, Forge, Nature and Arcana, because everyone bring great deal: first gives great sneakiness (Pass Without Trace), utility (Polymorph) and can be a pretty decent helper in fight, keeping concentration on duplicate(s) while using Thorns Whip (Magic Initiate) to bring people back near Tempest or Magic Stone to make decent attacks from a range.
    Second can be pretty decent as a tank, could buff Tempest greatly with Elemental Weapon (Booming Blade with lightning damage to also activate lvl 6 ability) and provide pretty decent AOE damage with Wall of Fire or helpers with Animate Objets.
    Third provides movement-based control and AOE (Spike Growth could be used by everyone) as well as defensive spells (Wind Wall) to complement Tempest ones. He would also get the best way to build army of spies or helpers thanks to FriendShip/Speak with Animals. The free cantrip would obviously be Thorns Whip to further help keep enemies inside someone's Spirit Guardians.
    Last... Arcana is mostly uninteresting for the most part, but just the ability to pick Wizard spells at highest levels makes it the best pick for a party that is confident to reach that level. In which case, thanks to a friendly Warding Bond, Tough and Defensive Duelist, he could make a pretty nice off-tank.
    (Also, if other books are on the table, I'd argue that Order would be great for the "cast spell -> freindly gets reaction" and Slow, or Strength/War to help the Tempest nova land thanks to +10)

    This party will be great from level 1 to 20, with spike powers at 6 (more CD), 10 (Divine Intervention) and 17.

    By far the close to best party (so far as you'll see ^^) as in "will clear without too much trouble whatever thing go their way", all thing considered, simply because Domains bring very different strengths and you get Divine Intervention too (what's best than having 4 attempts per day to get a god resolve something for you?).
    The only real big deal is lack of Counterspell.

    Spoiler: Druids: Moon/Shepherd/Dreams/Land(Grass|Arctic|Desert|Underdark)
    Show
    Druids: the next best thing one could hope for, these can be as good or better as Clerics in succeeding whatever task they got simply because Wild Shape is so amazing.
    Considering the few subclasses we already got Shepherd and Moon as obvious choices.
    So is Land considered only one subclass? If yes, then it's Dreams and one Land among Arctic, Grass, Desert and Underdark depending on taste. If you can pick several Land, then I'd pick Arctic and Underdark.
    Also if Ravnica is allowed, Spore may be a decent pick to replace Dreams or Land (much less useful than Dreams at high levels, different use than Land from levels 1-10 especially).
    Moon will pick resilience related feats and Observant.
    Shepherd will pick Resilient:Constitution ASAP, AND Warcaster, AND boost Constitution.
    Land will pick Healer feat and Ritual Caster: Wizard.
    Last one will pick Ritual Caster: Cleric.
    So why is that group so great? Well, simply because they all can spend all time as inucuous animals. Meaning many challenges can be trivialized, especially when paired with some Fog Cloud, Pass Without Trace, Speak With Animals or Conjure Animals.
    For unavoidable challenges, one of them can just be highly Charismatic, paired with Enhance Ability and possibly Prodigy feat and you're set.
    And for fights, their spell list is largely enough to cover any situation, with Land bringing a few out-of-the-box (for Druids ^^) solutions.

    This party will be at least as good, or possibly much better in fact, than Clerics. Actually, this is probably the best ever. Just Wild Shape, Enhance Ability, Healing Spirit, Pass Without Trace and Conjure Animals are enough to rock 90% situations.
    The only really lack is, like Clerics, Counterspell. But even that can be really worked with considering how stealthy/deceiving Druids can be.

    Aaaand... I'll have to stop for now this takes much more time than I thought and I have things to attend to. back later for the rest (quick teasing: Sorcerer is actually one of the best ;à).

    EDIT: back for next batch. ;)
    Aaand we start with loved Fighters!
    Spoiler: Fighters: Eldricht Knight/Battlemaster/PurpleKnight/ArcaneArcher
    Show
    Fighters: certainly not as versatile as others, but contrarily to Barbarians they can fare well against any kind of challenge. They just have less magic tools to trivialize things is all.
    So, to start, the obvious one: Eldricht Knight. The "most magical" will maximize INT in the end while going for a DEX build, and pick Warcaster so his schtick is using Booming Blade / GreenFlame Blade with Shield as fallback reaction at low level, then switch to encounter-winner with spells + Eldricht Strike. Either Alert or Elven Accuracy or Magic Initiate: Wizard will compliment him.
    For second position, we'll have the obvious Battlemaster arguing with Monster Hunter: both can go either DEX or STR, the first has a larger array of options (including a CHA-based one who could be nice) but the other's options are all good. Also, I realize the latter is UA, so then it's decided: Battlemaster, with Precision Attack, Evasive Manoeuver, Threatening Attack and Trip Attack as priorities. This guy will pick Mobile, Grappler and Mage Slayer as a STR character, using 1-handed sword while keeping people where he wants them.
    For third, we'll have to choose between Cavalier and Purple Knight: I really prefer the latter because all his abilities are about supporting party (and it's a 4-man people, perfect amount), but the fact that former's abilities don't actually require him to stay mounted (which could be a problem in an otherwise "all-foot" party) makes him damn tempting too especially for highest levels. The fact that abilities are long-rest is a pain though.
    So my pick will still be Purple Knight, but I understand other tastes. :)
    And for the latter, of course Arcane Archer! Not only because every party needs a good archer, and this one will certainly shine at it (Archery + Sharpshooter + Skulker), but because those options are *really* good for a martial: keep one AOE (the "bubble" or the "line) and pick another one among Beguiling and Enfeebling, both can save someone's hide. Next priority will be obviously Seeking: now you can give away position of anyone hidden, even invisible, for everyone to profit!

    Final note: since they have so many feats, they can reasily split an array of Ritual Caster: Wizard, Ritual Caster: Cleric and Ritual Caster: Bard, in addition to one Healer and one Inspiring Leader.
    So provided they can find sources, they should manage fairly well "normal" adventuring days.
    And Champion was put aside simply because he's imo, too lacking in options, which is significant in the current circumstances, plus the fact he's much better only in last quarter.

    This party will be mostly okay, because you can adapt as you level to tackle different situations (and you can make two STR main two DEX main, and having each focusing on a different of the 4 remaining attributes), but still there are certainly situations in which they won't be much better than Barbarians. Especially before level 10. Big power boost at 10 and 11 though. ;)
    And can certainly be fun to play. :)

    Aaaand now... THE MONKS!
    Spoiler: Monks: Shadow/4E/Kensei/LongDeath
    Show
    Monks: possibly the trickiest group to play at low level, and in the top 5 at highest levels. All archetypes are great, so choice should be hard... But the fact there is nobody else than Monks, considering what any party needs (stealth/tank/AOE) actually makes it easy. :)
    First, Shadow: to be honest I find it kinda bland, but Pass Without Trace is simply often the golden ticket to avoid bad things, and Darkness / Silence can provide tactical advantages too... Especially with *someone*'s help. This guy will obviously pick Stealth Expertise one way or another.
    He will also boost DEX first since the only WIS-offensive feature is Stunning Strike. From the rest, he can either pick Magic Initiate for Booming Blade, Mage Hand and Find Familiar (who will hold stone with Darkness on it) or Mage Armor (great AC, no need for WIS) or directly pick Ritual Caster: Wizard, or any offensive feat.

    Then, the other mandatory guy: 4E. Yeah, the dreaded, infamous 4E is the golden goose here although it will start very slow. ;)
    This guy could be a Tiefling for the Tiefling's "reroll fire damage and shed light" but otherwise any race is fine, although there will be some recommended depending on build.
    Guy can specialize in STR, aiming for long-term with Fly and Expertise in Athletics, or play safe and go WIS and pick Magic Initiate: Druid for Magic Stone|Create Bonfire and Mold Earth. He will be tasked with AOE (Burning Hands > Shatter > Fireball), and will otherwise rely on Fire Snake > Unbroken Air > Hold Person. Provided he goes for the long haul and as such picks Expertise through Prodigy (means Human or Half-Elf), he will become a great asset to pair with Shadow Pal: pesky archer? Grapple and drop from Air. Bother caster? Drag/drop him into a Silence zone or simply rush to Stun it. Group of mobs? A topdown Fireball will hurt. Ally needing evac? He's got it.

    So what to complement?
    Well, Kensei is a solid choice: main DEX, pick Sharpshooter, pick Martial Adept with Trip Attack, you'll be a pretty decent anti-flyer until your 4E Pal gets his Fly. Or pick Mage Slayer which may be useful more often. You'll be the most reliable hitter overall, and you can keep your Ki to move around or try and Stun if your pals run out (lower DC is compensated by higher reliability on enabling attacks).
    A Magic Initiate: Cleric for Bless could also be an option, or being an Elf and grab Elven Accuracy in mid-high levels when you start facing higher AC and you are closing to Empty Body.

    As for the last?
    Open Hand is the "archetypal Monk" in essence, and always a nice choice. But honestly he pales compared to others right until you get level 17 at which case he would become the top choice.
    Drunken Master is a very interesting guy, notably with level 6 Redirect, but that supposed he's in tandem with someone else. And considering all Monks are based on mobility I'm not sure ganging up would be the best option.
    And Sun Soul is overall uninteresting especially with a Kensei and 4e in place already.
    What's left? Long Death. Nice thing is, it was the best choice in the first place.
    First, the THP on kill allow him to get a good mileage of his HP, especially if he coordinates with pals. Second, the level 6 ability can really tip balance of fight, although it even more requires the party to spread out to avoid friendly frighten.
    So this guy will totally put WIS as a priority, pick possibly Magic Initiate feat for Shillelagh (self) and Create Bonfire or utility cantrip and Goodberry, or Ritual Caster Wizard to be sure he gets his own Phantom Steed at some point.

    Final notes: feat attribution is hard, that's why some choices will need to be made: either bet on short term and maximize one stat, or bet on long-term and keep primary at 18 max to free more feats for Healer, Inspiring Leader (requires Half-Elf and being either Shadow or Kensei) or another Ritual Caster. Saying long term because once you get Empty Body you won't care about AC anyways (especially when facing creatures that can sure-hit AC 17 anyways).
    If I had to build the party in real game, I'd definitely go this way so I can have one pick Observant for example, or Keen Mind, or both.


    Spoiler alert: for first quarter, this party will have some trouble. Contrarily to Fighters, they cannot spread out stats as easily, nor can they afford to pick extra feats, so skill coverage is much worse.
    They cannot even stack all kind of rituals.
    On the bright side, their native extreme Stealth and mobility, as well as Perception, and the pretty decent array of magical options means they should be able to avoid challenges they can't overcome.
    They will be as bad (or even possibly worse) as Barbarian on direct social challenges though for a good while.
    Fortunately, they get a HUGE boost at level 11 (4E's Fly/Fireball, Kensei's +3 accuracy, Long Death's "never die"), 14 (Diamond Soul) and basically every single level after.
    At level 20, in spite of all their intrisical limitations as far as options go, they place easily in top 5.

    And now for one of the favorites (for good reason): Paladins. :)
    Spoiler: Paladins: Ancients/(Devotion/Redemption/Crown)|(Oathbreaker/Conquest/Vengeance))
    Show
    Paladins: where to start from? Well, I know: CHOICE IS HARD! All archetypes are great. Like Monks, lets work by backtracking the flaws.
    Paladins are, in a sense, very similar to Monks and Barbarians: they are heavily geared towards melee. They, however, do get magic, with a pretty decent array of options at that.
    So, as starters, the most obvious one: Ancients Paladin.
    This one will be DEX, Sword & board or longbow depending on needs, using Ensnaring Strike and Plant Growth. He will pick whatever other feats he wants, with balance between DEX and CHA.
    He will stay mid-front, especially in high level with 30 feet Aura, to keep as many people as possible guarded against magic. He may also keep buffs like Bless or debuffs like Wrathful Smite / Banishment, in which case a Resilient: Constitution may be in order.

    For the remaining three, I see two or three combinations. So let's first recall the good things of each archetype.
    - Conquest: this one could build everything on Fear and the like, and pick Sentinel or Magic Initiate to create some catch-22. He also gets Armor of Agathys that can be great paired with *someone*'s Warding Bond, and Hold Person is like the best ever use of spell for a group of Paladin when possible. Surpasses Crown (in fact, probably all Paladins) in resilience at level 20.
    - Crown: the tank per excellence, between Channel Divinity and Spirit Guardians, also has the aforementioned Warding Bond. If he decides to pick Spirit Guardians as go-to spell, then Resilient: Constitution will be in order. Otherwise, whatever way he wants to go really (if Warding Bond is his thing, Tough may be in order).
    - Redemption: this one is a bit tricky to play but his spell list is all diamonds and the Rebuke the Violent can be a real fight-ender in spite of apparences. AND *he gets Counterspell!* Which is a pretty big deal.
    - Devotion: bonus spells are overall forgetable (although Sanctuary on a Crown's Spirit Guardians may be extremely good) but lord, Aura against charmed (possibly the worst thing a Paladin could suffer, although to be honest probability is low considering WIS prof + bonus Aura) AND Frigging +CHA on weapon attacks! This one is the DEX Sharpshooter party needs.
    - Oathbreaker: this guy is hard to live with fluff-wise, but the bonus on melee attacks which propagates to own's undead squad is extremely tasty.
    - Vengeance: can be a pretty good boss handler thanks to Sworn Enemy, Haste and added Mage Slayer feat, but you'd also need Resilient: Constitution. Definitely.

    So, seeing as Ancients is one of the most "neutral" fluff-wise imo, you can pair it with...
    1. Devotion, Redemption, Crown.
    - Devotion in "mid-line", keeping Bless for everyone and otherwise making ranged attacks with crossbow until some emergency smite or heal is needed. Or building as a Sword&Board tank with Sentinel and later Shield Master. Or picking the middle way with Dual Wielder. Or going full offensive with GWM. Really so many options. :)
    - Crown being the main tank, with either Sentinel + Resilient: Constitution or Magic Initiate + Warcaster (using Booming Blade, Guiding Bolt or Command).
    - Redemption making concentration and resilience priority (Hold Person! Aura of Vitality/Hypnotic Pattern/Circle of Power!), so feats on CHA, Resilient: Constitution and then either picking Eldricht Blast with Spell Sniper or boosting health (Tough being an obvious choice considering late game self-heal).
    This is really the peace party, trying to resolve things quietly as often as possible. They do pack a punch when needed though...
    But obviously not as much as the next.
    (For what's worth, this is the one I prefer)

    2. Vengeance, Conquest, Oathbreaker
    These ones speak with their blades and everyone feels it!
    - Vengeance would pick Resilient: Constitution ASAP, then Mobile, then Mage Slayer or GWM depending on taste. He would obviously be STR-based, and the one tasked with emergency runs to pick off (or drag back) a dangerous guy.
    - Conquest would also pick Resilient: Constitution, and otherwise pick Heavy Armor Master + Sentinel, being the one playing meatshield (since enemies would want to break concentration).
    - Oathbreaker would be either DEX-based, Half-Elf, with Prodigy and Elven Accuracy, or STR-based with Polearm Master, or STR-based with Prodigy and Grappler... Basic idea is to get several attacks and have them as reliable as possible.

    (Fixme summary missing ^^)

    That's it for tonight (I think ^^).

    EDIT: aaaand here again for next (last?) part. :)
    So after Paladins come Rangers!
    Spoiler: Rangers: Gloomstaler/HorizonWalker/MonsterSlayer/Beastmaster
    Show
    Rangers: not that many archetypes so it's basically who flush out...
    But instead of doing that, we'll start with the ones we're sure we want to know whatever happens.
    Read: Gloomstalker. Why? One reason, and one only really: Rope Trick. Although this spell does have its own limitations (basically unusable if enemies can see you cast it and enter it), it can still work wonders in different situations.
    Besides that, Gloomstalker's only interest compared to others is really the spell list in general: Fear and Greater Invisibility are great tools. I mean, all features are great, but it's just basic combat buffing. So mechanically this archetype is powerful, but not that exciting to me.
    Thanks to the Initiative boost though, he will probably be the one leading the group. He will rack up Magic Initiate: Druid if needed for Shillelagh and Magic Stone, and otherwise pick Alert and Observant, as well as Spell Sniper: Booming Blade.

    Next comes Horizon Walker: first because of spells (Haste, Misty Step, Banishment, Teleportation Circle), then because of his versatility: you can build upon the "force damage as bonus action" with Booming Blade (Magic Initiate / Spell Sniper) or onto the Teleport+extra attack of later (Dual Wielder + Sharpshooter or plain Crossbow Expert, or Haste+Resilient).

    In third place, you get Monster Slayer: not necessarily my favorite, but for a party of only Ranger, the ability to instantly get a few creature's strengths and weaknesses is absolutely essential. He also functions very well as a boss tank thanks to all features stacking on the first ability for offense and defense. Plus it gets some other non-Ranger interesting spells (including Magic Circle and Banishment). Martial Adept for Precision Attack or Lucky will be nice to use with the "reaction attack against saving throw". Otherwise, he may want to pick Ritual Caster: Druid to keep slots on some utility, especially Beast Bond.

    And in the last... Hunter! Not, sorry, joking. Beastmaster!
    Hunter is a pretty decent archetype, but its usual strengths are kinda eaten at by the other archetypes: Horde Breaker (Horizon), Volley (Horizon), Uncanny Dodge (Monster)... Volley especially is imo something much better with an ally powering with Elemental Weapon or the like.
    Beastmaster on the other hand, although people dislike the clunkiness feeling, is a powerful archetype through and through. You'll pick Mage Armor one way or another to help your beast survive every day. Besides that, he will use different spells as he progresses: Hunter's Mark > Healing Spirit > Conjure Animals. He will also pick Ritual Caster: Bard or Druid to further its fluff as the master of many beasts.

    So how everything works?
    Beastmaster will be the party caretaker, befriending animals to help with carry/travel/sneaking/surveillance, possibly providing Goodberrys (Gloom will have the responsibility of short rests in short notice).
    Gloomstalker will be the main scout, aided in that with Beastmaster's familiar, which will also channel
    Monster Slayer's ability to identify targets thanks to Beast Bond and possibly prepare a safe net with Magic Circle.
    Horizon Walker will complement what's needed with Ritual Caster: Wizard and manage long-distance transportation.

    In fight, Gloomstalker (sword and board) and Monster Slayer (possibly same) will act as primary frontliner. Interestinly by RAW, Gloomstalker gets "forced advantage" on Booming Blade at level 11. :)
    Horizon will act as see fit, depending on how he evolved, towards a flurry of ranged attacks, a pesky midliner or a frontliner.
    Beasmaster will be the dedicated archer, commanding beasts (plural).

    This party was actually hard to design because too many possibilities. As a consequence, I only put a few brush strokes, but many things would be up to actual party to optimize.
    This party will be better than Fighter, Barbarians and Monks for the first half, and play consistently well from level 1 to 20, thanks to having the great Ranger spell list, with equally good bonus spells on top.

    Annd because it took so much time I'll finish later (hopefully the last will be easier). XD

    EDIT: Back for Rogues, this one WILL be easier. ^^
    Spoiler: Rogues: ArcaneTrickster/Thief/Assassin/Scout
    Show
    Rogues: as usual, let's start with flaws, being they are martial characters at core (note that one Expertise is on Stealth for all ones, done). This means the first will be...
    Arcane Trickster: don't care that much about DEX, priorize INT to get 18 by level 8. AND pick Ritual Caster: Wizard one way or another if you want to really fill up the Arcane Caster role. Then get Magic Initiate: Wizard for more cantrips and another 1st level spell known if you want, or simply pick the usual Resilient: Constitution and Warcaster.
    You don't care that much about DEX because others are here to help with to-hit until level 9, and after that you'll win encounters with Magical Ambush debuffs in the first place (which may also entice you to get Alert feat instead of Warcaster/Ritual Caster).
    OF COURSE this one will put Expertise in INT skills first. Of course he will learn Rope Trick and Shield, and possibly Find Familiar. :)

    For the remaining it's actually a bit harder than I expected at first.
    Hopefully there is one thing that's sure: party needs healing. The best suited for that is THIEF.
    Then Thief enters the race!
    Thief will be a STR Rogue, with Expertise in Athletics. He'll be the one tasked with all thievery as suggested, thanks to heavy lifting capacity (make it a race with "double capacity" if you want to push it). First feat will be Healer. Second will be Magic Initiate: Druid for Goodberry and utility cantrips (if decent WIS can get Create Bonfire to combo with Grappler but that's niche). Third will be whatever you want. This one could build up as frontline tank (Moderately Armored), a mobile healer (Mobile) and/or play for the long run with Alert (17th level feature is nice but inactive if suprised).
    If AT does not pick Ritual Caster: Wizard, then it will fall upon him to pick. Meaning he will be the main adventuring caretaker.
    He will also put his Expertise in other physical skills as required, or simply in Perception (because what good is being a bulky thief if you can't detect guards and traps? Another incentive for Ritual Caster Wizard by the way).

    Third one will have to be the party face.
    For level 1-10, Swashbuckler is the best: features directly tied with CHA (including Initiative), a decent "fight me, only me" feature and could act as a decent tank with Moderately Armored and Sentinel.
    But if you want to bet on the long run, Assassin is *really* the one shining here, like, leagues above Swash.
    First, the Assassinate feature will become easier to use once friends get higher level features (*cough* Magical Ambush *cough*). But that's just the cherry. The cake is really level 9 and 13 features. In any decent campaign when the DM has enough time and resources to let you shape the world, Assassin is the way to making party kings of the world. True kings. :)
    Whatever pick would be made, that one would obviously take Inspiring Leader and Magic Initiate: Sorcerer (Mage Armor if no Moderately Armored, Comprehend Languages) or Warlock (Hex). Being a Wood Elf to pick the feat that grants Pass Without Trace would be very nice too
    Personally, I'd go with Assassin (how did you guess?) with Inspiring Leader, Keen Mind, Ritual Caster: Bard (Comprehend Languages, Silence, Magic mouth, Leomund's Tiny Hut) and possibly Observant even.
    Of course this one will be Expert in Charisma skills.

    Then for the last, we'd be glad to have someone helping with information and INT/WIS skills.
    Mastermind is interesting in mixed parties, but here some of its benefits are best taken care of by others. However, the level 13's "redirect attack" may be extremely powerful if played right (implies that Rogues spread out like Monks, with Mastermind being in frontline and trying to aggro enemies).
    And between level 3 and level 17 features, he would be marvelous in tag team with Assassin for social encounters.
    Scout has a nice mix of skills and combat features at low level, and 17th level "another Sneak Attack against second creature" is absolutely marvelous for a ranged guy. The "give advantage to others" is also great combined with all others (Assassin's auto-crit + chance at double damage, Thief's extra turn and Arcane Trickster's Hypnotic Pattern/Slow/etc you could end some fights in one round).
    Inquisitive is perfect for the task of debunking lies, and the level 3 feature means he can fight alone with good reliability. However, he's very geared towards non-combat, even the lvl 17th feature is not very impressive.
    So honestly I don't know what would be the "best" pick. I'd say it really depends how players want to organize their party, in duo, quatuor, or all solos.
    I'll be cowardly and pick the one that feels the most balanced in terms of mechanical benefits for the rest of party, aka Scout. He will definitely pick Ritual Caster: Druid, possibly Observant if nobody else picked it or party wants to act independantly from each other... Being a Drow for the Detect Magic at will feat could be nice too. But true strength will be Booming Blade (Spell Sniper). Cast Booming Blade with whip, move away a bit more, enemy advances to you, pick damage, and you still avoids his attacks once he gets into melee thanks to reaction. You will drive enemies mad with frustration. :).
    Of course this one will be Expert in WIS skills. Also, he will *definitely* max DEX as a priority and pick Alert at level 12 max.

    Honestly there are many ways to customize this or even completely change feats. I went for "try and balance party against every kind of challenge they may face"... But another very valid way could have been "completely build upon sneakiness and ambush and consider that any encounter they can't win with either CHA or two-round ambush they will avoid". Like a band of Elf cousins, two Wood (Pass Without Trace), one High-Elf (Detect Magic), one Half-Elf (for Charisma).
    Or all Humans, all being Expert in Stealth and Perception, all picking Observant and Prodigy for another Expertise, moving always all together. ^^

    So how will fare this party? Well, obviously less good than Clerics/Druids in some challenges, certainly less than Bards whatever happens, but overall much better than any martial group. From level 1 to 14 at least. The simple fact the party has Expertise in at least 3*4 skills (not including potentially 4th, not including feats or archetype Expertises), and the fact they get Reliable Talent at 11th level is enough to make everything not strictly requiring magic to be resolved a breeze. Even more considering the numerous rituals they can use to help themselves, or the few utility magic AT can cast (Fog Cloud, Sleep).
    In second half, Assassin can quickly build up their rep and influence, while others help with information gathering.
    And the level 17 features allow them to basically insta-win any encounter they can ambush that does not feature groups of high-CR creatures.
    And they all sports decent resilience (correct AC, Uncanny Dodge against the brutest hists) and damage (Sneak Attack).
    In any "normal" campaign, this package makes them, by far, the easiest martial group to build and play from level 1 to level 16-17. Probably. ^^

    EDIT: Back yet another time, "the post that never ended"... XD
    Hopefully I can finish straight, only 3 classes left. ;)

    Sooo... The dreaded Sorcerers!
    Spoiler: Sorcerers: DivineSoul/Shadow/Draconic/WildMagic
    Show
    Sorcerers: first, disclaimer, it's legitimate but a bit sad UA is off because there are many interesting archetypes out there. Not sure if Planeshift would be admitted so Pyromancer out too.
    What's left? Divine Soul, Draconic, Shadow, Storm, Wild. 5 archetypes, need 4. Guess who's the one put aside? *Ahem*...
    First things first: Divine Soul is an obvious since access to healing spells.
    Shadow is the second obvious thanks to bonus spell and more importantly Shadow Hound.
    Third will be Draconic because classic, because wings (tag team with Divine Soul ^^), because extra resilience.
    So for the fourth, it's a toss-up between Storm and Wild.
    Let's be clear, imo, Wild is immensely superior: Bend Luck is invaluable enough to make this far superior to Storm. *Really*. Bend Luck is the difference between fail or save on enemy's debuff sticking or pal surviving a spell.
    But, big BUT, there is Wild Magic. The archetypal, highly fluffy, dreaded Wild Magic.
    This is a blocker for many people around there, and I certainly understand why.
    So when you are not confident in your luck and/or are afraid of DM "playing" too much, pick Storm.

    Now how to make this go? There are several ways actually, exactly like Rogues in fact.
    You could, for example, make a party of Sorcerers who ALWAYS ONLY SUBTLE CAST (which de facto pushes Wild Magic away: no use being perfectly innocent-looking if there is an impromptu magic effect coming anyways).
    You could also make a party of fully-hasted or fully-polymorphed Sorcerers with 2 of them picking Twin (this is actually a fun idea, I may keep it depending on how things go).
    For the sake of OP, I'll keep the same approach as for other classes, making as versatile a party as possible.

    First Divine Soul Sorcerer: this one will be the main healer/buffer (duh). He will stand back in fights.
    He will pick Healing Words, Mage Armor, Aid, Warding Bond, Death Ward with Extend as a priority. He'll also pick Fly and Invisibility to upcast. For the rest, he could simply keep Bless in fights, or pick Twin to pair with Guiding Bolt/Dragon's Breath/Haste/Polymorph, or pick Subtle because Sublte, or simply Quicken. His offense will be mainly Eldricht Blast (Spell Sniper) and/or Spiritual Weapon.
    In any case, he will mostly learn Cleric spells, because, well, might as well take up that chance while the other three take care of being proper Sorcerers. XD
    He may be the best suited to use some (Careful) mass debuff though, as long as it's not self-centered like Fear: Slow, Wall of Fire
    He will also obviously pick Ritual Caster: Cleric since he's a wannabe, as well as Tough if he wants to use Warding Bond regularly, and/or Inspiring Leader.

    Second Shadow: this one will obviously be the single-target debuffer: Heightened would be a big waste, and Hound is costly, so this one will pick cheap metamagics: Distant, Careful, Subtle are all good choices. Depending on how DM rules Hound's appearance (thus people's reactions), Subtle may be a great addition. Otherwise Distant will be favored to take advantage of Hound's distance. Since most debuffs are concentration, priority will be Warcaster. Hold Person/Monster, Banishment, Polymorph will be bread and butter. Because those spells are costly and Sorcerer wants to run the day, he'll otherwise use cantrips from a distance. Or, if there is an emergency, he can drop everything and cast Darkness to cover friends and go inside melee himself with Shocking Grasp.

    Third Draconic: this one will have the tasty/nasty task to act as a frontliner. Brrrr!
    He's not that bad at that. Actually, he can be rather qualified: free Mage Armor and d8-equivalent is already pretty nice. This also means though this one will main DEX as a priority, so as far as spells go, he will focus on defense or "damage on save" spells.
    Meaning: Shield (duh), Mirror Image, Booming Blade and GreenFlame Blade.
    He'll pick either fire (Burning Hands/Fireball) or lightning (Chain Lightning) or cold (Cone of Cold) depending on how far he aims, because he'll be the one tasked with unleashing some AOE.
    His concentration will be spent on Shadow Blade, Warding Wind, Dragon Breath or Greater Invisibility depending on situation.
    This also means he'll want Empowered metamagic for the cheap one. For the second one, he may pick Subtle to be the "social helper" with Enhance Ability or Suggestion, or Quicken for nova damage or "Dodge and still do something".
    For feats, Defensive Duelist will be nice at late levels, before that Tough is probably the best (especially if paired with friendly Warding Bond) as well as Mobile (you want to aggro, but not too much).
    A niche way to build him would be to actually make him a Half-Elf, with low CHA but high DEX, decent STR and CON (like 13/16/14/14) and tack Prodigy, Elven Accuracy and Grappler (in that order) so you keep smacking enemies with advantage (first you Shove prone, but they will understand quick and avoid you, hence Grappling later). But that is definitely niche. ^^

    As for the fourth, well Wild Magic means wanting to use Bend Luck as often as possible, and Wild Magic "risks (limited but real) means you will usually want to be far from enemies and allies alike and/or cast as few leveled *Sorcerer* spells as possible.
    Which implies...
    - Ritual Caster: Bard/Cleric/Druid are in order (depending on what other picks and your own taste, I have a weakness for Cleric because a Wild Magic Sorcerer Communing with deities seems a fun paradox to me).
    - Distant may or not be useful, as well as Careful, Subtle and Extended. Paired with possibly Quicken for emergencies.
    This one will pick AOE battlefield spells (Wall spells, Sleet Storm/Ice Storm, Cloudkill, Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Chain Lightning, Animate Objects) or spells that can last a long time (Suggestion/Mass Suggestion, ~Invisibility/Polymorph, Move Earth, Etherealness).
    Depending on its choice, he may take some utility feat to complement later like Keen Mind (great with Etherealness ^^)...

    Also, why I didn't go in details (honestly would'nt know precisly myself), among party *must* be one Catnap, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, one Inspiring Leader, one Healer, one Alert, and at least one Ritual Caster with Leomun'ds Tiny Hut. Honestly each picking a Ritual Caster would be nice, with the one(s) with Extend preferably will pick Bard or Wizard (the ones with the most 1 hour / 8 hour rituals).
    Also, one of them *will* have Subtle with Enhance Ability, Detect Magic and Minor Illusion.

    So where are we? Well it's a bit of a mess, you can really push in several directions. My current suggestion is having one as a healer, another as a boss-taker, third as a kinda-tank, last as support.
    But honestly...
    You could also make a party of Sorcerers who all pick Twin and Subtle, then 2 pick Extend, two pick Quicken, and go to town... Level 1-4? All with Mage Armor (except those who don't need), two frontliners with Shield of Faith and Dragon Breath from backliners using Ray of Frost/Chill Touch, while themselves maintaining a Mirror Image or a Warding Wind.
    At level 5, you could have a full Hasted Dragon Breathers or full Invisible Flyers.
    At level 7, you could have a fully Invisible Monsters party (twinned Greater Invisibility and Polymorph, preferably in that order ^^).
    By that level, considering each Sorcerer picks a Ritual Caster, party could hold permanent Silence while it advances carefully while invisible, or get Hasted Enlarged Phantom Steed for extreme speed transportation (or if DM refuses that everyone could sit on Enlarged Steed, no problem, just get a carriage or have some Tenser's Floating Disk besides you).

    Yeah, I'm aware I'm only giving extremely costly examples of combos. Of course ones shouldn't blow everything like that as soon as they can. I just wanted to stress that there are many interesting ways to combine a group of Metamagic users (and I just scratched the surface here).

    So how will fare this group? Well, pretty good, considering access to rituals through feats (yeah, for all classes so far I considered you could eventually get all rituals from a feat).
    Even without feats, to be honest, this group will sustain himself very well, as long as they don't get into harsh adventuring days. Because until level 7-8 they will be very reliant on their spells slots and have little options to play with.
    In fight, they will overall fare very well in spite of appearances: the Extended buffs will overcome low hit die, the reliability of debuffs or AOE damage will help shape the battlefield, and as a group they have enough options to retreat if need be.
    It's certainly the most complex group to play (kinda the opposite of Rogues ^^), but certainly not the less powerful. Even truer after level 11-12.
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-11-18 at 06:59 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Quote Originally Posted by ImproperJustice View Post
    In the same way, an all Rogue party could be fun to slip past a group of enemies.
    Play a full group of rogues, one of which is an Earth Genasi to cast Pass Without Trace (or maybe someone dips Shadow Monk).

    Enjoy your +20 stealth rolls at level 5. Then enjoy your minimum 33 stealth rolls at level 11 when you all get reliable talent (10 reliable talent + 10 pass without trace + 5 dexterity + 8 expertise stealth).
    Last edited by Trustypeaches; 2018-11-15 at 05:43 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Banned
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    The Moral Low Ground

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    "All humans, all fighters... "

    Fluff is an issue. For classes like fighters and wizards the personality is irrespective to the mechanics. But with warlocks and clerics you'll need a solid dose of contrivium to approach workable conditions with variety. There are mitigations, but it's mostly a no-no.

    Fighters; three battlemasters and an EK should get stuff done.

    Monk; all shadow monks. If things go wrong, you were never there.

    Wizard; wave upon wave of skeletons to act as tank. A solution to every problem... though healers are few.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jaappleton's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    -sees large post with must-read insightful breakdowns of the question at hand-

    Hi, Citan!

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    -sees large post with must-read insightful breakdowns of the question at hand-

    Hi, Citan!
    XD thanks for your kind words. ;) But I know that some people are (legitimately) bored by text walls, so I'm actually trying to refrain... I just fail miserably at it. XD

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Trustypeaches View Post
    A group full of Warlocks would also be exceptionally strong, as with the modularity of the class there could be little-to-no overlap.

    Hexblades (and Green Flame Blade Celestials) fight well on the frontline. Fiend warlocks serve as strong AoE blasters, while Celestials offer emergency healing and support. Archfey and GOO Warlocks have several potent control options to shape the battlefield. One warlock picks up Pact of the Tome for ritual casting, while another warlock picks up Pact of the Chain for the ultimate scouting utility.

    And even when there is overlap in features, their features aren’t redundant most of he time. You can never have too many agonizing blasts, and the group can make incredibly efficient use of Darkness if they all have Devil Sight. Repelling Blast spam can be heavily abused with AoEs like Evards Black Tentacles and Hunger of Hadar (which Warlocks can also see through). Two Chain familiars can go scouting together to pull more elaborate shenanigans (sabotage, giving each other advantage on Stealth/Deceptions/Persuasion/Insight checks, working together to counter their low individual strength).

    Plus the group would have a much easier time planning short rests and their spell slot usage, since they’re all on the same page.
    I've got notes on how to build a Warlock that emulates, if not exactly an entire class, then the primary role of the classes. Fake-Monk is my favorite.
    Why yes, Warlock is my solution for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by obryn View Post
    Active Abilities are great because you - the player - are demonstrating your Dwarvenness or Elfishness. You're not passively a dwarf, you're actively dwarfing your way through obstacles.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Bards, because then they could form a band!

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Troll in the Playground
     
    jaappleton's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    XD thanks for your kind words. ;) But I know that some people are (legitimately) bored by text walls, so I'm actually trying to refrain... I just fail miserably at it. XD
    Are you kidding? I secretly hope you respond to every question I ask on this forum.

    To the topic at hand:

    Despite my answer of Clerics previously, Bards May be among the best monoclass. The skill proficiencies alone are worth strongly considering.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Bards, because then they could form a band!
    I love it!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

    Join Date
    Oct 2018

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Paladins would be the be all end all of melee parties. They get some good support and healing. In a party of four you have a combined total of 20hp in lay on hands per level. Smites are a thing. You could have a ranged paladin with a bow who uses some of the non-melee paladin spells but can smite with a rapier if need be(I'd recommend Ancients). You would all also have decent charisma and won't need a designated face of the party. I would also like to mention that Redemption gets counter spell at higher levels. You also wouldn't need a rogue, because your all lawful little good boys.

    I like the idea of monks just because of the silly shenanigans from all of the subclasses. You got a rogue in the Shadow monk, kensei makes a great ranged monk(grab longbow), you have radiant damage from sun soul, maybe some spells from elements, but I'd recommend Open Hand for battlefield control.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    I've personally been in an all Fighter party and an all Cleric party, and the Fighters were unstoppable in combat but struggled elsewhere while the Clerics were pretty unstoppable at everything. The everybody surround the BBEG with Spirit Guardians thing was as epic as it sounds.

    I would like to see a Band of Bards. I think it would be a lot of fun.

    I think a group of Paladins would be REALLY strong.

    I wouldn't underestimate a party of Sorcerers. I don't think they'd be weak at all.

    Any all wizard party should include an Abjurer, Diviner, and Bladesinger. Insert any other random school to fill out the group.

    Monks and Barbarians would probably be the worst overall IMO.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post

    Monks and Barbarians would probably be the worst overall IMO.
    I might just make a silly campaign about a party of barbarians trying to fit in. Thanks for the idea.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    JumboWheat01's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    New York
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Bards, because then they could form a band!
    Let's not ignore the facts as well that with bards you have some tankier, fighting bards, more skill based bards, definite striker bards, all sorts of fun stuff. And bards can customize their spell lists by stealing from any other spell list as needed. Your tanky bard need more tankiness? Steal the right spells for it!

    Throw on Ritual Casting for utilities, bardic inspiration for boosts, never really having any bad skill rolls, and a group of four characters with the Charisma to really muscle through with the face skills, and you have a do-anything party.

    5e Bards are beasts.
    Avatar by linklele.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2017

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Party of Bards = World Tour for rock stars

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    For those that may be interested I updated my above post, up to Rangers. Good night all ;)

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2018

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    For those that may be interested I updated my above post, up to Rangers. Good night all ;)
    I appreciate the work you put in here :) Excellent post.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Orc in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Aug 2015

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    I think the all cleric party would do well at covering the bases of the "Iconic 4" party.

    War Cleric (fighter), Life Cleric (cleric), Arcana or Light Cleric (wizard), Trickery Cleric (rogue).

    The customization options of the warlock class would allow experienced players to effectively cover these bases as well.
    Last edited by Ogre Mage; 2018-11-18 at 05:00 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Ahem...

    It seems I managed to discover the upper character limit of a post (didn't even know that existed), which is 50000. XD

    So then I'll finish in this post. XD


    Back for another mess then: Warlocks. :)
    Spoiler: Warlocks: FiendTome/HexbladeBlade/CelestialChain/ArchfeyTome
    Show
    Warlocks: yeah, they are a mess. It's not just a matter of picking one archetype and few spells. They don't even have 4 different Pacts either!
    Brace yourself, this one will be hard!
    As usual let's start with the easy one. We definitely want one with Tome Pact, because it's the quickest and easiest way to get all rituals. This also means he will be the pillar of party, so he'll have to priorize safety.

    Also, while I'm at it, disclaimer: all Warlocks will pick Devil's Sight Invocation, simply because that way they can abuse Darkness without any problem. Difference is, they may not pick it all at the same time. Also, all will pick Eldricht Blast and Repelling Blast. So only 5 invocations "left".
    And all will get Elven Accuracy, meaning all will be Elves or Half-Elves. And all except Hexblade will get Moderately Armored ASAP too, with Resilient: Constitution just before or after.

    Back to it.
    Second will be a kind of off-tank, with Celestial and Chain Pact and Chains of the Living One.

    Third one will be the main frontliner, Hexblade Blade.

    We'll get to the fourth later.
    Then what Patrons? Raven Queen is UA, as well as Seeker (sadly this was OP for this party) and Undying Light, and Undying is to my eyes too fluffly and not strong enough mechanically.
    What's left? Celestial, Fiend, GOO, Archfey. 4 patrons for 4 Warlocks, perfect. ;)

    So let's say the one with Tome Pact will get Fiend. At first I thought Archfey, but then I thought: first, Tome really needs only one Invocation, so that one can rack up Eldricht Blast related Invocations. Second, while Archfey's spells are great (especially Faerie Fire at lower level) Fiend gets THP on kill that pair well with Eldricht Blast, and a special "Fireball as bonus action" which can be nice too.

    So, back on track.
    1. Fiend Tome Warlock: on top of common Invocations, he'll pick Agonizing, Lethargy, Kiss of Mephistopheles, and finish with whatever utility (the Invocation that lets you read all writing could be nice). He will be the primary Darkness holder until he gets Wall of Fire. He'll also pick Fire Shield so he can pair it with Armor of Agathys and act as a secondary tank if need be, meaning Warcaster will be in order (Command/Booming Blade/Thorns Whip will help keep creatures close by).

    2. Celestial Chain: this one will pick all Chain related Invocations: the one "telepathic communication on same place", the "auto-max heal if close-by familiar" and the "Hold Monster at will". He will pick Crossbow Expert to use Eldricht Blast freely.

    3. Hexblade Blade: this one will obviously pick Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker. Improved Pact Weapon is an option, great if he doesn't plan on using Elemental Weapon/Shadow Blade, passable otherwise. He will *definitely* pick the Relentless Hex and Eldricht Smite invocations too, so he's basically set. His basic modus operandi will be to use Banishing Smite + Eldricht Smite on nova when needed, and otherwise just use basic attacks, possibly from range, or with Booming Blade at close range, at which case Mobile may be in order.

    And the fourth?
    Well, the fourth will actually be a Fey (duh)... Tome (surprise!)
    Reasons for that? Many.
    First, considering a full Warlock party, you don't want to blow slots too often, so nova-like HexBlade is not advised. And besides that, it's not worth it picking the full GWM/Sharpshooter Blade way, not with all those new options in SCAG and Xanathars.
    Second, you never know what happens. Having all eggs in the same basket is a bad idea. So having two guys with rituals is better: quicker camp setup, ability for party to split, rituals still here even if one is down/away, larger ritual coverage (Silence as prime example).
    And for melee Shillelagh+Booming Blade is far enough.
    So,
    4. Fey Tome: this one will rack up some utility feats instead (just Agonizing Blast and Grasp of Hadar), like "see through walls" one (maybe paired with "Free Invisibility" later), Conjure Elemental one or Slow one or "free Water Breathing for everyone" one.
    Actually he may even learn all "free ritual" spells one after the other simply so he is sure to get them in ritual book.

    So, what this party can do?
    Well, it depends very much on the spells they pick, but, for example...
    Wall of Fire + Wall of Fire + Plant Growth, paired with multiple Repelling Blasts, ought to deal some pretty damage.
    Warlock spell list being nice enough, they'll have a nice array of mass control/debuff, utility and other things.
    They lack any skill-enhancing ability though. And healing is sparse, so as usual Healer + Inspiring Leader will be in order.
    To compensate, they have potentially ALL rituals, and three familiars to help scouting, a bootload of cantrips (have all pick Mold Earth for quick fortification for example ;)).

    Since there *will* be at least one Suggestion holder, possibly two, and considering it's easy to get short rests in cities they could really put some disorder (although they don't have Subtle so beware).
    Since Invisibility is upcastable, as well as Fly, and considering they will certainly end with Leomund's Tiny Hut and/or Water Breathing, they can be extremely good at traveling fast and sneakily.

    NOTE: as for Sorcerers, I decided to go with a mix as heavy as possible. But you could perfectly build all 4 Warlocks near identically or have them share at least the Patrons for easier fluff. ^^
    Having a 80-feet wide wall of Darkness advancing, or having rays coming from everywhere (all under Greater Invisibility) can be hard to fight against. ^^
    You could also have made a full party of Tome traveling and fighting solely on Phantom Steed (Cavaliers of Apocalyse) while blasting everything away with Darkness and Repelling Blast. ^^

    So how would fare this party?
    Well, *extremely well* past level 1-4. Why is that? First, I assume that since all Warlocks, there won't be any bickering about when to rest: they will certainly design adventuring pacing that allows them to take as many short rests as possible. Second, they have access to all rituals, and many do ease adventuring. Add to that that they can still pick up one or two Invocations geared towards social, and that they can pick one or two utility feat to expand.
    The main thing is: Darkness + Devil's Sight + Repelling Blast will be great from level 1 to level 13-ish. Good enough to me.
    Of course, on everyday when short rest isn't an option, they will be lesser than everyone else (including Monks past some level ^^). But how often should that happen really? :)

    Be back later for finally the last part (actually one of the easiest), Wizards. ;)

    EDIT: while I'm at it... :)
    Spoiler: Wizards: Bladesinger/Abjurer/Diviner/Evoker
    Show
    Wizards: well, it's not necessarily as simple in fact, because there are many combinations that would work great.
    So I'll just present the one I would pick intuitively, without considering how fluff-wise some archetypes may mesh well, or lesser, with others (*cough* Necromancer *cough*).

    So first, the obvious: this party will rock so hard it would make any DM cry in advance. Because I assume that if Wizards bear with each other enough to travel together, they *will* share spells.
    Meaning that we now work on the basis that each Wizard learns, not 2, but *frigging EIGHT* new spells every level up. That does open some perspectives. :)

    Let's start with the basic: Bladesinger: this one is gorgeously good at being good in everything. Want a speedy guy that darts heavy damage? You got it. You want a guy that stands in the frontline and draw attacks? You got it too (obviously not at the same time ^^). You want a guy that ensures *the* spell of encounter sticks? Still him.
    This one *will* pick Resilient: Constitution ASAP. Elven Accuracy may or not be in order, depending on how player views his character. What's sure is that he will know Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade, possibly pick Mobile feat, and keep Haste, Shadow Blade and Greater Invisibiliyt at the ready.

    Second, the other obvious one: Abjurer: this guy would be best with armor proficiency, probably as a racial benefit. At low levels he will shy away though. Once he gets past level 6-7 he can start tanking properly (and help Bladesinger thanks to the "distant Ward" feature).
    And, more importantly, you won't get any better Counterspeller than that, and at level 14 he becomes the greatest tank ever against magic users.

    Third, the equally obvious one: Diviner. Nothing is better than having a few rolls that can help a friend succeed or a foe fail (well, you're not shielded against totally useless "middle" rolls, but hey, we can't have it all). Sadly, the rest of archetype is mostly uninteresting -unless you like Divination spells of course-.
    So another equally infamous to replace could be the Necromancer. Having a few loads of minions is helpful, if your party accepts it at least. If they don't like undead, then Conjurer will be the called one. Not only does he get an interesting lvl 2 feature, but the perks of higher level makes his conjuration very reliable, and having the ability to call up a few meat shields or otherwise allies is very interesting for this party.
    So I'd pick mainly Conjurer (my favorite choice) or Diviner (the most sensible choice for most people, for good enough reasons).


    As for the last, well, it depends on your taste.
    If you want to buff up the damage department, then Evoker is your obvious choice: especially with Abjurer and Bladesinger in frontline, it's nice to help them out of immediate threat without ending themselves by "accident".
    But Enchantement, Illusion and Transmuter should not be disregarded! First has twinned enchantements, second has Malleable Illusions, and the latter has many great tools (including the only way for a Wizard to revive, as well as early Concentration saves if needed).
    I'll pick Evoker myself because it's the "easiest" to project into, but any of them can be great in proper hands.

    So we end with Bladesinger, Abjurer, Diviner and Evoker.
    First two will make the frontline, others mid/backline.
    Each will pick a Ritual Caster feat: Bard, Cleric, Druid (well, one of them will spare this ^^).
    As everytime, one Healer and Inspiring Leader feat will have to be distributed.
    Bladesinger will pick probably Mobile and Warcaster.
    Abjurer too possibly.
    Others will take up utility feats: Diviner would be well-suited thematically for Ritual Caster: Cleric, paired with Observant and Keen Mind, he would be the head of the group.
    Evoker could certainly get a racial feat like the only rerolling damage.
    Etc.
    Honestly the only big deal with this party is surprise attacks, so one Alert will be required too.

    So, how will fare this party?
    Well, death awaits at every corner until level 3-4. Past that, and until level 18? Easily one of the "best" parties, with only weakness being lack of healing or Expertise. But probably at Bard or Rogue level of easiness.
    All because of shared spells. Without it, Wizards would be far worse than Clerics, Druids, Bards, Rogues, Rangers and Paladins.
    With ability to share the spells, from start and from leveling? At level 5, the collective knows (6*4 + 8*4 = 24+32 =) 58 spells. That is completely outrageous. XD
    Of course, they *can't* have all spells prepared. But they can very easily get *all rituals* written in spellbook and at the ready. Even discounting the usual (Shield/Absorb Elements/Mirror Image) they can still pick ~5 spells among the list for every day.
    And they get Rope Trick, Catnap and Leomund's Tiny Hut, so getting short rests should not be that hard for them.
    There are certainly adventuring days in which they would suffer. But every mission for which they have time to prepare before to get intel and analyse, they will have a very high probability of winning. :)
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-11-19 at 03:50 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2017

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    A monoparty of wizards spawned a multimillion dollar series of books and movies, so there's that.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Personification's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    CLASSIFIED
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Now we just have to find collective nouns for each group:
    • Tribe of Barbarians
    • Band of Bards
    • MinyanSchism of Clerics
    • Circle (or Grove) of Druids
    • Unit of Fighters
    • Fist of Monks
    • Paragon of Paladins
    • Quiver of Rangers
    • Team of Rogues
    • Cataclysm of Sorcerers
    • Pact of Warlocks
    • Preponderance of Wizards


    If it is red, then I don't like what I thought of and am looking for a better one.
    Last edited by Personification; 2018-11-20 at 12:02 AM.
    Stop using good evidence and logic that makes sense to refute points, that's my job
    Lots of people seem to use blue for sarcasm, I decided I should too
    Quote Originally Posted by nabcif View Post
    Nitpick: I believe you'll find that only our heads explode. Page 43 of Book of Pedantic Forumites, if memory serves.
    I have joined the ranks of the FFRPeople Here is my character.

    Thank you to Linkele for creating my avatar!

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Quote Originally Posted by Personification View Post
    Now we just have to find collective nouns for each group:
    • Tribe of Barbarians
    • Band of Bards
    • MinyanSchism of Clerics
    • Circle (or Grove) of Druids
    • Unit of Fighters
    • Fist of Monks
    • Paragon of Paladins
    • Quiver of Rangers
    • Team of Rogues
    • Cataclysm of Sorcerers
    • Pact of Warlocks
    • Preponderance of Wizards


    If it is red, then I don't like what I thought of and am looking for a better one.
    A Diocese of Clerics
    A Wicker of Druids
    A Skulk of Rogues

    Additional Recommendations:
    A Battle of Fighters
    A Monastery of Monks
    An Eruption of Sorcerers
    Last edited by Catullus64; 2018-11-20 at 12:10 PM.
    The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.

    What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.

    Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.

    Nothing is given so generously as advice.

    We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.

    -Francois, Duc de La Rochefoucauld

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Now that I finally finished the whole class suggestions, time for a wrap-up pertaining OP question. :)

    From level 1-9, I'd rate as such.
    Tier 1 (top): Bards, Clerics, Rogues, Druids. Those four can tackle probably 100% of challenges they face. What they can't overcome with spells and brawns, they can supercede through negotiation or stealth.

    Tier 1bis: Wizards, Rangers, Paladins. Just a bit lesser than the previous:
    - Wizards because they are quite frail at the first levels, and overall have no decent way to get Expertise before level 9 nor healing. So they'll have to pace themselves hard and abuse rituals until level 5-6 or so. On the bright side, they quickly get the tools to do so.
    - Rangers overall for the same reason: they are "better" than Rogues overall in terms of versatility, but the fact Rogues can use simple skill checks to resolves situations more reliably (meaning less resource consumption) gives them a slight edge imo.
    - Paladins because even with my suggestion to make half of them decent at range, they are still heavily reliant on melee range. And the slightly bigger need to boost stats means it's a harsher choice to pick Ritual Caster early, so probably only one Ritual Caster guaranteed.

    Tier 2: (pretty good overall with a flaw): Sorcerers, Warlocks, Fighters.
    - Flaw of Fighter is potential lack of utility (I mean, I supposed all the time you could get all rituals, but in practice it's not guaranteed) and sustainable healing (only short rest heals). Barring that, it's solid.
    - Flaw of Sorcerers is that if they try to get versatile as my main proposition, the lower number of spell known may make their fighting routine easier to predict or make some choices hard. However, if you build a band of Sorcerers as I alternatively put (using "party-wide" tactics) then this group could end Tier 1... But only as long as resources last, and only for situations they built themselves for. Reason why they will never actually get past Tier 2.
    - Flaw of Warlock is the reverse. Actually, IF you can be confident about number of short rests, this group goes straight up to tier 1bis. In any non-hostile, non time-pressured environment, this group goes straight up tier 0. Yeah, 0. :)

    Tier 3: (slow start of blatant limitations): Monks, Barbarians.
    Monks will be harsh to play on the first few levels, they will need to pace themselves even more than Wizards considering they don't get any way to get short rests "from nowhere". Things will get better at level 6 (especially if they get at least Leomund's Tiny Hut to facilitate short rest) and will linearly grow in power from there. At level 11 they get closer to tier 2. Big boost in abilities means their only flaws are still skills limitations and lack of healing.
    Barbarians, well, are Barbarians: very skill-limited, very melee-focused. Many situations will see them unfit to bring a proper response. Is not incompatible at all with the fact that whenever answer is a plain fight, unless extreme "all-flyers/casters/archers" situations, they will rock.

    From level 10-15
    Tier 1: Bards, Clerics, Rogues, Druids, and newcomers: Wizards.
    Why Wizards? Because imo, when you start getting spells like Contingency, Chain Lightning, Globe of Invulnerability, Magic Jar, and soon after Forcecage and Magnificent Mansion, plus enough slots to use Skill Empowerement without too much regrets...
    And you'll have to tack on that the archetype features (both lvl 10 and 14th are *big* improvements).
    Unless you're really stupid Wizards (which is kinda a nonsense), neither lack of healing nor lack of permanent skills/Expertise should be any problem. Especially when party knows collectively 6*4+14*2*4 = 24+112 = 136 spells (including all rituals of course).
    From there and until level 18, Wizards are probably in the top 3 (note: I'm *very far* from being a Wizard expert especially past 4th level spells, so plz feel free to give examples of awesomeness Wizards can build by making long-term world influences). Maybe they could even reach "tier 0". ^^
    As for the others...
    Bards can as easily as Wizards resolve 99% problems thanks to multiple Expertises, archetype features and Magic Secrets.
    Rogues too, because the total lack of spell options compared to the previous is made irrelevant thanks to the arrival of Reliable Talent.
    Druids are still Druids, except with big improvements at being Druids. So "same in better".

    Tier 1bis: Rangers, Paladins. Newcomers: Sorcerers. Near-miss: Warlocks, Monks.
    Rangers and Paladins both get better at being themselves, and will fare pretty good against more situations. But they are obviously less flexible than the aforementioned.
    Sorcerers enter thanks to the mix of great archetype features (free flight for two of them), general improvements (one more metamagic, more spell points) and higher spells.
    Warlocks could enter the fray because they get one more short-rest slots, high level spells, and high level Invocations. But they are still very dependent on short-rest. So Tier 1bis or tier 2, up to you. :)
    Monks get very big boosts in archetype features (Fireball, +3 weapon, avoid death) + extremely good base features (Diamond Soul, "all languages") + more ki. Still does not resolve the comparatively limited skill set (unless they all pick Skilled, eating even more at ASI bumps). So that's why they are still tier 2.

    Tier 2: Warlocks, Fighters, Monks.
    Warlocks: said above. :)
    Fighters get another very big improvement overall, and they can get some feats to make themselves better in many ways... But it's still overall a party with whatever happens very limited spells (only EK + party rituals) and healing.
    They fare better than Monks overall thanks to the "feat liberty" and the fact they are less dependent on short rests for efficiency.
    Monks: said above.

    Tier 3: Barbarians: still Barbarians, being great (certainly greater even) at melee, decent against mid-range attackers, desperately lacking otherwise. Even the "advantage on saving throws until next turn", while great, won't do any difference if party is facing group of casters.

    From level 16 to 19, I'd rate as such...
    Tier 1: Bards, Clerics, Rogues, Druids, Wizards, newcomers: Paladins, Sorcerers.
    Bards get lvl 18 Magic Secrets and other greatness, Clerics get 3rd CD per rest, Druids get "Subtle magic", Wizards get "free 1st + 2nd spell". Rogues get mainly combat improvements.
    Paladins enter the fray because the Improved Aura means they are less susceptible to AOE while still being able to have at least 2 active for each one. As a reminder, since level 10, if they go full-stack, they are immune to frightened, charmed (Devotion), and resist to magic damge (Ancients). In addition to that, they all have maxed CHA, and all get access to Circle of Power, so it becomes damn hard to make a dent in any of them.
    Sorcerers get into this simply because as fullcaster they get up to 9th level spells (including Meteor Swarm, Time Stop and more importantly Wish -means that on regular days if they *really* need a particular spell it's available) AND powerful archetype features (and, as usual, expanded SP pool).

    If we had to try and put a "near tier 0", Druids would be first, because "Subtle casting" is *that* strong, but they would be closely followed by Wizards (the sheer number of spell known + free spells is marvelous), and Bards probably just a few feets after (we cannot underestimate lvl 18 Magic Secrets and Expertises).
    Sorcerers would be either above, equal or under Bards, depending on how they built themselves (read: full Subtle party will be outrageous).
    Rogues will best mostly everyone (except possibly Bards) anytime something can be resolved by skills, but apart from that cannot compete in options, hence still lasts.

    Tier 1bis: Rangers, newcomers: Warlocks, near-miss: Monks, Fighters.
    Rangers have always been great, they are simply even better at being Rangers (access to 5th level spells and Feral Senses).
    Warlocks, as fullcasters, get many new good tools, as well as more Invocations and one more short-rest slots. When you can master short-rest, those are definitely pushing to tier 0 somewhere around Bards.
    Monks are still near-miss because they still rely on rituals to get short-rests and still have no way to enhance their skill set. Barring that they are powerhouses, between Empty Body and Wall of Fire/Earth (4E), Quivering Palm (if party went "long-goal Open Hand choice), Opportunist (more occasion to Stun) and Long Death Touch (unimpressive for the level, but can still be a good desperate move).
    Plus the fact they can now be nearly as good as Rogues for stealthing (Empty Body + Pass Without Trace). Honestly, depending on their builds (read: if they "sacrificed" one ASI boost or two to get utility feats), they can safely be put here.
    Fighters are near-miss because in spite of the overall huge improvements (more Action Surge, EK gets Improved War Magic and more spells and slots so becomes a very reliable single-target debuffer) they cannot compete in versatility with all above neither Rangers (more spell versatility, much better sneakiness, mobility, healing etc) nor Warlocks (hard to compete in versatility with fullcasters).


    Tier 2: Monks, Fighters.
    As explained above. :)

    Tier 3: Barbarians: even more impressive in melee, still desperately lacking otherwise (unless characters go out of their way to pick utility feats).

    At level 20
    My gosh, we need to add tiers here.

    Tier 0: Druids, Clerics.
    Why Druids? Unlimited Wild Shape + Subtle = win. You just cannot make anything.
    Why Clerics? Because auto-success of Divine Intervention, although that is extremely DM-dependant.

    Tier 0bis: Wizards, Subtle Sorcerers, "city Warlocks".
    Wizards were already top material, honestly level 20 does not add that much... But 2 3rd level spells per short rest is still a great boon: Counterspell for Abjurer, Haste for Bladesinger... Becomes outright stupid if you picked Necromancer.
    Warlocks are here only for non-time pressured, non-hostile environments (but for those they were tier 0 right from the start tbh).
    Mostly the same for Subtle Sorcerers.

    Tier 1. Paladins, Bards, Rogues, Sorcerers, Warlocks.
    Bards, Rogues and Sorcerers were already there and only get interesting but not impressive capstones.
    Warlock finally get a "get short-rest benefits" features that gives assurance of at least 8 slots in any day, which is enough to push him up.
    Paladins get an impressive capstone that makes them true powerhouses when it's really needed.

    Tier 1bis: Rangers, newcomers (barely): Monks, near-miss: Fighters.
    Rangers were already there, just get a very unimpressive feature (the only thing that really warrants a change in PHB Ranger).
    Fighters get the 4th attack which is a big improvement for fights... But for fights only.
    Monks get a big improvement boost imo, although I know it's a highly debated point around here: the fact they get 4 Ki if at 0 in Initiative means that whatever shape they are in, they can either pull a Stunning Strike bumrush, go defensive with Empty Body or use a combination of spells and Dash/Dodge. Pairing that with their already impressive resilience, and the fact they were already near-miss before, this is the tipping addition.

    Tier 2: Fighters, newcomers: Barbarians.
    Fighters: explained above.
    Barbarians: from level 1 to 20, they never really addressed the blatant limitations of their class. Difference is? At level 20 their confidence in themselves pays off: although they are still overall bad at many things, they have just become so extraordinary at winning "regular" fights thanks to unlimited rage + big STR/CON boost that they amply earned this upgrade.
    As far as "mixed combat" (read: no exclusively flyers/casters) go, they probably trump all other martials except *maybe* Monks.
    As far as "pushing further without any rest", they bury absolutely everyone. :)
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-11-20 at 01:07 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    JumboWheat01's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    New York
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Monoclass Parties

    Barbarians do have flyers, though. The last Eagle Totem allows a barbarian to fly their speed, provided they land at the end of the movement. With the earliest Eagle Totem upgrade that gives a Bonus Action Dash, that's a fair amount of distance they can go up to something in the air, smack, and get back down. Or grapple and take the flyer down with them!

    All this flight requires is Rage. So while it can only be used in bursts through the leveling process, at 20, it's time to leap tall buildings like only a mass of angry muscle can pretty much whenever they please.
    Avatar by linklele.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •