Managing (not negating) high player defenses

[eversilentone]

Hi folks,

I'm looking for a bit of advice. I'm DMing for a 2 player party, both players are level 9:

1) Catfolk Swordsage
2) Dream Dwarf Beguiler/Mystic/Mystic Theurge

The Swordsage is a Spiked Chain AOO/trip build and she has pretty high defenses - 25ac, 17 touch ac, high REF (and soon Evasion) and WILL saves. She uses the Pearl of Black Doubt stance (which means she is safer against multiple weaker foes), and also has great mobility and her weapon has the Smoking property (concealment).

I'm struggling to find a way to manage rather than negate the defenses of the Swordsage and would appreciate some advice. They're currently fighting Drow so Faerie Fire helps with the concealment, but I'm having to throw some pretty strong stuff at them to have a chance of hitting her. The problem is that this means those hits which do connect are really big - either crits from lower power foes or big swings - and even though they both have max HP/level I am worried that a streak of dice might wipe her out (we're early in the campaign and I don't want this). Because there are only two of them I need to try to keep the threat level roughly equal (the Theurge just got 4th level Beguiler spells but doesn't yet have 3rd level Mystic spells - I allowed her to Precocious Apprentice for early entry, but on the divine side) - Greater Mirror Image should help a lot with this.

I don't want to turn off the Swordsage's defenses (she's built to be survivable, so I want her to feel that way), but I'm struggling to come up with ways of threatening her in a proporionate way. So far I've got:

1) Negate concealment (e.g. Faerie Fire)
2) Negate Dexterity bonus to AC, mostly to decrease touch ac (e.g. Lock Armour)
3) Target FORT saves (suggestions for non-lethal means would be really appreciated)

Any suggestions would be appreciated. As a party they have fairly low damage output and no burst damage, although the Swordsage is great for locking down an area with a larger number of foes. Am I missing anything? Is there a way or decreaseing touch ac but not reducing overall ac?

Thanks in advance - our next session is tonight so I'd appreciate any assistance possible.

[Zaq]

Concealment always helps (okay, not ALWAYS), but 25 AC doesn’t seem that high. Looking through CR 9 foes in MM1, a bone devil hits 50% of the time against that, a Delver hits 60%, greater elementals almost can’t miss, a frost giant is at about 70% on the first attack, a green slaad hits at 50% on two attacks and 40% on a third, and so on. What’s the typical to-hit on the baddies you’ve been using?

Pearl of Black Doubt does add some variability here (especially if you’re using lower-level mooks to pad out encounters), but it comes at a noticeable opportunity cost (you only get one stance, after all). The player’s AC isn’t embarrassing or anything, but it’s also not unreasonably high. Offhand, it honestly seems competitive with monster to-hit values, and that’s actually a pretty good thing. Especially if the player intentionally built for survivability, like you said.

That said, if you’re finding it to be really problematic, you could start throwing around debuffs, different tactics (touch AC of 17 isn’t super low, but it’s a lot more manageable, and once tripped or grappled or whatever, that AC becomes less impressive), Fort save effects, etc. Or Will save effects, for that matter. A Swordsage with good WIS probably has a noticeable Will save, but they don’t have Mettle, so a “save for half” or “save for reduced effect” might still have a noticeable effect.

Most touch AC gets way lower if the target is flat-footed or denied DEX, so you can try using enemies who use tactics like hiding, feinting (suboptimal compared to a full attack, but it might be fun for a change), and so on to land their touch attacks.

[eversilentone]

Thanks, Zaq, for the reply. I misremembered that the Swordsage's touch ac is actually 21, which is pretty high (I'd forgotten SS WIS bonus to ac affected touch), but it's the combination of all the defenses which is what I'm finding challenging.

I guess I need to throw more high BAB, low damage enemies at them - so far they've mostly faced around about BAB+6, so anywhere between +6 to +16 with STR bonuses. I'll need to find out/better understand how to deny DEX bonus as I think that'll be key (I'm not so great on that side of combat). I also think you're right about the WILL saves; no Mettle is a big deal, and means that even facing off against multiple Doom/Bane can have an effect.

I think I'd feel more confident if I felt that the pair had a higher damage output. Fights just feel a bit grindy. I'll need to have a think about how I can help up their damage (although access to a stocked magic mart should help, I think).

Much appreciated for the swift reply. I'll try and adapt!

[Darth Ultron]

1. Single Foes
2. Ranged foes with area attacks
3. Foes with other senses then sight
4. Foes in three dimensions
5. Environmental effects and hazards

And putting them together.

So for an Underdark example:

The cave is a couple hundred feet high and long, with narrow ledges on the sides and two rock bridges, and one mushroom bridge. The drow have a number of goblin slaves with alchemical acid bombs. The drow each have a hand crossbow.

Ok, this is first off a very three dimensional fight...the drow and goblins will be everywhere 360 around the characters. The whole area, except the bottom floor, is narrow, so it will be single person to person fights. There will be lots of balanced movement, climbing and jumping. The acid bombs do splash damage. The hand crossbow darts have poison. As there are lots of ways to loose a Dex bonus in this area, the attacks have a much higer chance of hitting.

And that is just a basic encounter as you can add:

Animals: bats and insects work great in such an area. Bats also ignore the smoking cloud with their radar, and vermin like scorpions have tremorsense to do the same.

Magic: A could of area spells will make the battle much more. Grease is a bit more effective in such a place, so can Web. Wall of Smoke, Cloud of Bewilderment, the list goes on. Drow do fit perfectly with necromancy spells with Fort saves too.

The end result is that you are not just having rocks fall on the character and kill them...your having a complex, engaging battle.

[zlefin]

having the weaker foes use the aid another action to setup a stronger ally getting in one good hit.

[King of Nowhere]

you could send against him another spiked chain tripper, and have fun with all the tripping. actually, I'm not sure how 2 enemy trippers would interact.

you could send a big monster, it's going to be mostly immune to being tripped, and it has enough reach to avoid aoo anyway.

as for fort effects, stinking cloud is the only one i can think of that is non lethal and doesn't require a touch attack. you could also use black tentacles, the guy should have a decent grapple but should still be seriously threatened.