Stacking DR Confirmation

[kalos72]

If I have an 12th level Aegis, with a DR of 5/ at his level.

We then add 5 Vitalists to his Collective, each providing an additional 4/ to the Aegis, giving him a final DR of 25/.

In effect, the Aegis can ignore any damage upt to 25pts, correct?

And the effects do stack correct?

[Zaq]

I don't know the specific rules about those classes you're using, so I can't talk about if it stacks or not. Whatever the final number is, though, DR/— applies against most physical sources of damage (attacks and so on) but not against most magical sources of damage, even ones that do typeless damage. So I wouldn't casually toss around the term "any" when discussing what sources of damage you can ignore or partially ignore.

[kalos72]

Yes, physical damage only. Correct. :)

The idea here is the Aegis himself has:
Damage Reduction: Starting at 2nd level, when an aegis is wearing his astral suit, he gains damage reduction 2/-, regardless of
what type of astral suit he is wearing. At 5th level and every three levels thereafter, this damage reduction improves by 1.

At level 12, giving him a total of DR 5/.

Then we have 5 Vitalists with the Guardian Method giving:
Guardian’s Pulse: As a free action, a guardian of 6th level may project a pulse to all members of his collective by spending one
power point, either granting them DR 2/- for one round or improving their existing DR by 2. Every three vitalist levels thereafter,
this DR gained or improved increases by 1.

EACH Vitalist would add DR 4/ based in the Guardians Pulse ability, adding DR 20/ to the Aegis already DR 5/, equalling DR 25/.

Now I dont see anything in either class description or the guide online that say it wouldn't stack so I am just checking here.

Add in a Fast Healing 10 from True Metabolism throughout the Collective and you are basically eliminating 35pts of physical damage a round...

[stack]

General rule is that the same source doesn't stack unless explicitly noted, so 1 vitalist is as good as 5. DR normally doesn't stack either, but the particular ability notes that it does. That still doesn't mean you cannstack that same ability multiple times.

[kalos72]

Aren't the individual Vitalists the source? Would I get healing from different players using the same ability/spell?

Your opinion would imply the Fast Healing stacking wouldn't apply either?

Are you talking RAW or general DM rulings?

[Crake]

Your opinion would imply the Fast Healing stacking wouldn't apply either?

Fast healing doesn't stack, unless it explicitly says so. Generally same source refers to the ability itself, not the individual. The relevant line in 3.5 is under "The basics", on the 3.5 SRD and under the stack definition in the 3.5 phb glossary, though I'm not sure where it/if is located in pathfinder:

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).

[kalos72]

Those rules specify "modifiers to a given check or roll", is damage reduction or healing a "check or roll"? Isnt it just assumed to work?

In fact that line is under Modifiers - modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. No die roll used in DR or fast healing correct?

[kalos72]

I am seeing that notation to apply to skills/ability for example. You can't get two sources of +1 CHA ENHANCEMENT from 2 rings. You would need to change the type to inherent or what not.

Just talking this out...

[Crake]

The one in the players handbook is referring to stacking in general:

stack: Combine for a cumulative effect. In most cases, modifiers
to a given check or roll stack if they come from different sources and
have different descriptors (or no descriptors at all), but do not stack
if they have the same descriptors or come from the same source
(such as the same spell cast twice in succession).

It then goes on to describe how it would work for modifiers, but then you can also look at stacking spells:

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two
or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the
same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. For
example, if a character takes a –4 penalty to Strength from a ray of
enfeeblement spell and then receives a second ray of enfeeblement spell
that applies a –6 penalty, he or she takes only the –6 penalty. Both
spells are still operating on the character, however. If one ray of
enfeeblement spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other spell
remains in effect, assuming that its duration has not yet expired.

Basically, you can't just keep casting the same spell over and over to gain an infinitely stacking effect.

[kalos72]

But the ability specifically says it stacks. Thats where you lose me...

"improving their existing DR by 2." so that tells me, that regardless of the other ruling on modifiers, the ability over writes the normal policy and STACKS.

Now the next argument is does it stack from multiple Vitalists. Again, the RAW says DR never stacks, unless the ability says it does. And again, the ability does here.

IDK...

[grarrrg]

But the ability specifically says it stacks. Thats where you lose me...

Guardian's Pulse stacks with other DR.

It doesn't (necessarily) stack with itself, regardless of multiple applications from potential multiple sources.

[kalos72]

I understand what your saying.

The only implied reading I can make is as the ability states, it stacks with your existing DR.

Aegis - DR5
Vitalist one starts - Aegis DR9
Vitalist two starts - Aegis DR13
Vitalist three starts - Aegis DR17
Vitalist four starts - Aegis DR21
Vitalist five starts - Aegis DR25

Each is adding to the last total DR, which would be the Aegis existing DR at that point.


I CAN say, I can't get DR/untyped that high any other way without spending tons of feats.

[Blue Jay]

But the ability specifically says it stacks. Thats where you lose me...

The ability doesn't specifically say that it stacks with itself. Like, it doesn't contain the words "multiple uses of this ability stack." You can read between the lines and infer that it stacks with itself based on the words "improving" and "existing," but it doesn't say that it stacks.

In order for it to override the general rule, it has to be clear and specific. If it doesn't say it specifically, then you assume that it's still beholden to the general rules that govern stacking.

Also, I'm not entirely familiar with the Pathfinder material, but this is the full text of the ability on the SRD website I'm familiar with:

As a free action, a guardian of 6th level may project a pulse to all members of his collective by spending one power point, granting them DR 2/- for one round. Every three vitalist levels thereafter, this DR increases by 1.

No mention of increasing existing DR. You should double check to determine which of those two is more up-to-date: there may be some errata that removed that line.

[kalos72]

I am taking the wording from Ultimate Psionics:
Guardian’s Pulse: As a free action, a guardian of 6th level may project a pulse to all members of his collective by spending one power point, either granting them DR 2/- for one round or improving their existing DR by 2. Every three vitalist levels thereafter, this DR gained or improved increases by 1.

That appears to say, these DR buffs stack. It doesnt specify either way, but there is no rule for DR buffs that says different sources or types either.

[Blue Jay]

I am taking the wording from Ultimate Psionics:
Guardian’s Pulse: As a free action, a guardian of 6th level may project a pulse to all members of his collective by spending one power point, either granting them DR 2/- for one round or improving their existing DR by 2. Every three vitalist levels thereafter, this DR gained or improved increases by 1.

Online SRD websites often reflect errata, or rules updates that were implemented after the rulebooks were published, so it's possible that the official rules have changed since your copy of the book was published. If you want to know what the "official" rule is, you should check on that, because I don't know how Paizo generally deals with rules updates.

That appears to say, these DR buffs stack. It doesnt specify either way, but there is no rule for DR buffs that says different sources or types either.

You're saying that the lack of clarity justifies interpreting things in a permissive fashion. I can't really say whether you're wrong to do that, and if your table is okay with it, go for it. But, if you want "official" rules, don't count on this kind of permissivity. You're supposed to uphold the general rules unless there is clear and specific evidence to ignore them. If you're saying things like "It appears to say" and "It doesn't specify either way," then you probably don't have the clear and specific evidence you need to justify ignoring the general rules.

-----

But I'll try to delve in Pathfinder content to see if I can find the answer your question. Again, my only access to Pathfinder information is the free stuff on the internet, so the SRD website is the best I can offer you. But I'm not sure where exactly all these rules have been compiled from or whether all of them count as "official" rules or not. So, my apologies if any of the following quotes are not considered part of the "official" Pathfinder rules.

From the Common Terms section under "Basics and Ability Scores," it says this:

Bonus

Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

(The underline is mine; the bold emphasis on the last line is from the source)

Would you agree that Damage Reduction counts as a "statistical score"? I think it does. So, based on that, I would say that the general stacking rules are meant to apply to Damage Reduction.

You can also look in the Special Abilities section, and see that the text for Damage Reduction does reference stacking rules:

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

So, I think it's safe to conclude that the general stacking rules are supposed to apply to Damage Reduction.

Now we need to know whether the specific "Guardian's Pulse" ability is subject to these rules. It's not a spell or power, and the SRD website doesn't label it as (Su) or (Ps), so I don't know what rules other than the general stacking rules might apply.

But, I was able to find at least one informative little tidbit. Going back to the Common Terms section, there's also a table that lists common bonus types, and it has a footnote keyed to the table entry for dodge bonuses:

Spells and magic items should never grant dodge bonuses because dodge bonuses always stack, and it would be a simple matter to stack various low-power items or spells with small dodge bonuses and get an incredibly high armor class more cheaply than by achieving that AC using the armor, deflection, enhancement, and natural armor bonuses in the game.

This tells me that cheap and easy buff-stacking is not intended to be possible, which by extension probably means cheap and easy DR-stacking is also not the intention of that Vitalist ability.

So, I can't directly confirm or deny anything, but the evidence seems to strongly suggest that abilities like this are not intended to stack with themselves.

[kalos72]

I agree, most standard 3.0/3.5 DnD stuff says the same types dont stack. You simple take the highest bonus number.

But the definition of stacking, adding together two numerical bonuses of the same type, is superseded by the abilities wording. IMHO...

Now the question is, does more than one Vitalist bonuses stack with each other since thats not defined. If we go with the simple wording and not try to assume things based on other documentation, it just says the Vitalist bonus, stacks with current DR OR adds a new one.

I interpret that as saying, if done in succession, each Vitalist adds to the existing DR of the same type. Sadly, there is nothing that I have found, that counters the wording of the ability. Otherwise, the whole ability is useless.

[phlidwsn]

Look at it this way: Haste adds an extra attack. But even if you have two casters cast Haste on you, you only get one extra attack, because you can only have one Haste spell effecting you (This is the multiple from same source portion).

So you say start with DR 3/- from Aegis, a Vitalist casts Guardian's Pulse on you. You are now at DR 5/-

A second Vitalist cans Guardian's Pulse on you. You don't get a 2nd effect of the same name on you, just like you can't get two Haste spells on you. You still have just one Guardian's Pulse granting you a total of DR 5/-.

[kalos72]

So at best, I am getting DR 5/ from a level 12 Aegis and DR 2/ for the Guardians Pulse. DR 7/ seems underwhelming...

Would it be better to just use a custom item of Iron Body and get DR 15/Adamantite?

Is there a way to sort SRD to find spells that offer DR or just create a custom spell and then item of DR /untyped?

Bonuses of the same TYPE is simply a highest value ONLY applies.


Does stacking different types of the same value make more sense?

My understanding is DR 10/Silver and DR 10/Adamantite MEANS, you need BOTH to get past the DR 10.

[Manyasone]

DR 7 is underwhelming...I have a war hulk aegis amongst my players who begs to differ. It causes me quite a headache sometimes especially since I built the damn thing for him. This type of DR cannot be pierced. It is the best type of DR. The reason they don't stack is quite simple, the aegis is source A, the guardians pulse is source B. Two sources. Regardless of how many vitalist fire the pulse, it remains a guardians pulse, thus it remains source B.
That simple

[exelsisxax]

So at best, I am getting DR 5/ from a level 12 Aegis and DR 2/ for the Guardians Pulse. DR 7/ seems underwhelming...

Would it be better to just use a custom item of Iron Body and get DR 15/Adamantite?

Is there a way to sort SRD to find spells that offer DR or just create a custom spell and then item of DR /untyped?

Bonuses of the same TYPE is simply a highest value ONLY applies.


Does stacking different types of the same value make more sense?

My understanding is DR 10/Silver and DR 10/Adamantite MEANS, you need BOTH to get past the DR 10.

It would be better to stop worrying about DR so much. At your specified 12th level, giants are already throwing down 4d6+21(average 35) 3 times a turn before we start considering power improved vital strikes and crits, and the fact that it does nothing against spells, SLAs, and basically anything that isn't a weapon attack. The aegis gets it as a nice freebie for a bit more survivability, trying to stack it is both impossible and foolish.

[kalos72]

It would be better to stop worrying about DR so much. At your specified 12th level, giants are already throwing down 4d6+21(average 35) 3 times a turn before we start considering power improved vital strikes and crits, and the fact that it does nothing against spells, SLAs, and basically anything that isn't a weapon attack. The aegis gets it as a nice freebie for a bit more survivability, trying to stack it is both impossible and foolish.

The concern here is that my lv 12 Aegis Groups will find themselves often outnumbered 10-20 to 1 or more. Yes, the Aegis can kill most low level enemies in one hit but there is ALOT of overkill and wasted damage. CLeave/Whirlwind are only going to add a few mobs per round but I am still working through the scenario.

Even a giant can get swarmed by enough low level foes...

DR was an easy way to limit the amount of incoming damage, Fast Healing is another, maybe some sort of regeneration or something too.

[exelsisxax]

The concern here is that my lv 12 Aegis Groups will find themselves often outnumbered 10-20 to 1 or more. Yes, the Aegis can kill most low level enemies in one hit but there is ALOT of overkill and wasted damage. CLeave/Whirlwind are only going to add a few mobs per round but I am still working through the scenario.

Even a giant can get swarmed by enough low level foes...

DR was an easy way to limit the amount of incoming damage, Fast Healing is another, maybe some sort of regeneration or something too.

You have sucessfully shanghai'd me into your bizzaro world. Are you actually going to be playing in a pathfinder campaign, or are you doing some sort of horrifying large-scale miniatures wargame with RPG rules? Because the scenario you just outlined sounds like a nightmare table scenario to me. Like someone thought that playing 40K imperial guard was too streamlined and also that 4e had way too much of a non-combat focus, and decided they were going to DM the whole goddamn war of the roses with PF rules, down to the last landsknecht.

I need to know this to sleep tonight. I must have answers.

[Kyberwulf]

This is where you are incorrect. The ability isn't being modified by a "bonus," it has to be labeled as a bonus to be considered one. If you go by the wording from the first example, not the next one that doesn't seem to state that it improves the existing one. The wording just says the DR is pumped up.

Not to mention these aren't hard "can't" terms. It says as a general rule.

Also, it seems that the "dodge" rule is pretty specific to "Dodge". You can't say on one hand you have to read the rules exact, on the other hand this one rule that applies to a specific circumstance applies to this other non-mentioned set of circumstance. Also, notice it says it "should never", not outright that it can't.

Again, in the former it is stated that the DR is improved by one. Not added to as a bonus, so the Bonus rule doesn't apply, even though, it seems like it should. The DR is just being made better. Even if the same spell gives him the ability, it doesn't come out as the same type of bonus...seeing as it has no bonus type.

I mean, maybe that is why it was changed? It might have been able to read as the first example, then changed to the second example. I mean, there were a lot of things that got changed from 3.0 to 3.5 that was overpower-depowering. And again changed from 3.5 to pathfinder.

[kalos72]

I am involved in an Epic level campaign where the PC's are trying to build an all psionic army. We use ALL books/sources and judge an issue one at a time versus an entire book.

Aegis would be the primary combat troop, a simulacrum/ice assassin of an old NPC that travelled with the group before dying.

Based in the FR world, we will be trying to establish a kingdom in the North and therefore will have HORDES of orcs/goblins etc, to deal with.

I could just blow em out and let the PC's create 100000 of these things and run ramshot over the entire world but I am trying to limit them but still give them a chance to succeed.

I also, when they were designing the army to be martial, allowed a customer magic item that would allow a mass heal that effect sims/IA's and could simply allow them to do something like that here but they are trying to be creative with all the cool options Dreamscarred put out.

Reading the material is not the same as playing with it so I was looking for help here.

[kalos72]

This is where you are incorrect. The ability isn't being modified by a "bonus," it has to be labeled as a bonus to be considered one. If you go by the wording from the first example, not the next one that doesn't seem to state that it improves the existing one. The wording just says the DR is pumped up.

Not to mention these aren't hard "can't" terms. It says as a general rule.

Also, it seems that the "dodge" rule is pretty specific to "Dodge". You can't say on one hand you have to read the rules exact, on the other hand this one rule that applies to a specific circumstance applies to this other non-mentioned set of circumstance. Also, notice it says it "should never", not outright that it can't.

Again, in the former it is stated that the DR is improved by one. Not added to as a bonus, so the Bonus rule doesn't apply, even though, it seems like it should. The DR is just being made better. Even if the same spell gives him the ability, it doesn't come out as the same type of bonus...seeing as it has no bonus type.

I mean, maybe that is why it was changed? It might have been able to read as the first example, then changed to the second example. I mean, there were a lot of things that got changed from 3.0 to 3.5 that was overpower-depowering. And again changed from 3.5 to pathfinder.

The standard is NO DR doesnt not stack. But there is also a SPECIFIC NOTATION that says it does in the ability which supersedes the standard. It's always NO, unless otherwise noted, here its notated.


Guardian’s Pulse: As a free action, a guardian of 6th level may project a pulse to all members of his collective by spending one
power point, either granting them DR 2/- for one round or improving their existing DR by 2. Every three vitalist levels thereafter,
this DR gained or improved increases by 1.

[exelsisxax]

I am involved in an Epic level campaign where the PC's are trying to build an all psionic army. We use ALL books/sources and judge an issue one at a time versus an entire book.

Aegis would be the primary combat troop, a simulacrum/ice assassin of an old NPC that travelled with the group before dying.

Based in the FR world, we will be trying to establish a kingdom in the North and therefore will have HORDES of orcs/goblins etc, to deal with.

I could just blow em out and let the PC's create 100000 of these things and run ramshot over the entire world but I am trying to limit them but still give them a chance to succeed.

I also, when they were designing the army to be martial, allowed a customer magic item that would allow a mass heal that effect sims/IA's and could simply allow them to do something like that here but they are trying to be creative with all the cool options Dreamscarred put out.

Reading the material is not the same as playing with it so I was looking for help here.

Are you the DM?

[kalos72]

Are you the DM?

Yes but we are all friends for over 20 years playing...it isn't so much me in charge as much as high level program manager. :)

THIS is a new endeavor though, taking epic level PC's through a kingdom making process.

[Kyberwulf]

See there is the problem. The DR is being improved. Not being given a "bonus". So the first pulse would go off, given him the improvement. His DR would go up. That would become his "Existing" DR. Then the second would go off, and then improve.. thus repeating.Until it was whatever.

This is why it was probably errataed. I mean this thing HAS happened before.. Keen, improved critical(feat) bladed gauntlets? Out how about the 5' Supreme Cleave massacring of and army in one turn?


So yeah, using the source he had on hand, he was correct. However when updated to the newer rules, no he isn't correct anymore.

[exelsisxax]

Yes but we are all friends for over 20 years playing...it isn't so much me in charge as much as high level program manager. :)

THIS is a new endeavor though, taking epic level PC's through a kingdom making process.

Then skip all this crap because high-level characters can kill arbitrarily high numbers of golbinoids. The correct thing to do is just tell them that they win, because they will win unless you DM fiat a challenge into existence. Having them go through the process of actually doing so is a waste of time. You are manufacturing a solution for a problem that you have invented for yourself. This is not a problem that the PCs actually have, it is a hangup that you are inflicting upon your gaming group.

After you do that, here's some kingdom building rules. You know, for the whole "PCs are creating a kingdom" thing you mentioned.

[phlidwsn]

FWIW, at level 12, an Aegis can spend 4cp to pick up Improved Damage Reduction twice. Each purchase increases its native DR by one. So that puts you to DR 7/-, DR9/- after a Pulse.

Beyond that, I'd look at Concealing Amorpha and its Greater variant via power stones for a 20% or 50% miss chance. Over a given fight, you'll mitigate more damage with the miss chance than with an even higher DR.