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2018-11-18, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
More than PCs ruining the scenario, I think it's more fear of players getting away with something. The players are forcing the bad guys to behave a certain way. They're controlling the scenario altering reality, but the DM can't help but know it's a trick. The players for a moment have virtual power over the DM, but it's a house of cards. If only the NPC realized this one thing it falls apart and power returns to the DM deciding how NPCs behave; therefore, the NPC realizes the one thing to make this happen.
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2018-11-18, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2018-11-18, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2014
Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
I apologze if I come off a bit abrasive in this post but reading stuff like Angry tends to lead to me mirroring that style.
Those articles are BS. The only good advice in them is 'don't be a jerk' but that's pretty much useless without good particulars. He gives lots of things NOT to do but doesn't have a bit of advice on how to productively distinguish player and character. His opinion basically boils down to:
"Sometimes when people try to do things like this it makes the game less fun and it's pretty hard to draw the line anyway so just don't. Except kinda sometimes, but lets not at ALL go into how to look at these things productively and just make it sound like anyone who says 'metagaming' just hates fun."
I mean seriously, if there were NO player/character divide I wouldn't even play the game, that's half the fun. If my character were just 'me' then I'd be bored as hell. That doesn't mean I need to saw my brain in half and never let anything I as a player know influence the decisions I make on behalf of my character, it just means I need to recognize what motivations my character has and figure out how to use them to achieve what I, the player, want. It also means that if what I, the player want directly contradicts what my character's motivations are then I shouldn't just change that every damn time it comes up.
Seriously, if it were so impossible to separate your own motivations from your characters' or try to see things from their perspective instead of yours then I guess every work of fiction with more than one character is goddamn sorcery.
The only thing I agree with him on is that your shouldn't use 'metagaming' to be a massive jerk to your friends, but even then I think he just invented a new way to be a jerk by hyping up condemnation of anything related to metagaming at the same time.
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2018-11-18, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2018-11-18, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
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2018-11-18, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
This is the inevitable place that every discussion on metagaming goes. People don't define their terms, and different amounts of all the things that people consider 'metagaming' are or aren't allowed under various circumstances.
From the rest of Angry's posts, he tends to run a pretty straightforward beat-em-up campaign where combat is the key focus. He's outright stated that he has no patience for FATE or other such systems, and while he does create things like 'social encounter rules', most of his writing centers on combat encounters.
And the thing is, in a combat encounter, 'metagaming' typically isn't a problem. Like he said, you throw a firebolt at the troll cause that's something you've heard in real life and why wouldn't a professional adventurer not know such basic monster lore? You throw a charisma save at the same troll because you think he's got low charisma. And who knows, maybe he doesn't? Maybe the Troll's been enchanted to be resistant to fire?
The problem with metagaming comes in two other places.
1: When the DM makes all of his NPCs clairvoyant. This is a problem because it ruins player agency. After all, why layer defenses on yourself if the enemy is instantly going to notice that you're there even when silent and invisible? AngryGM and pretty much all the DND folks out there in the internet have skewered this style of play from time to time. Angry himself writes a lot about 'figuring out the monsters motivation.'
2: When the party is keeping secrets from each other. Obviously if a PC is secretly an incubus, and that gets revealed OOC, its going to be a pain when the paladin keeps trying to use divine sense at random times, and comes up with some BS justification for it.Make Martials CoolAgain.
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2018-11-18, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2018-11-18, 08:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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2018-11-18, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
Yeah I don't see how that not Metagaming. See my earlier posts. You pretending you don't know it's still metagaming. you can call it good role playing, or whatever but the fact still remains you're using your player knowledge to affect your characters decisions.
I cant see how some people get a sense of accomplishment when they pretend they don't know something and then act like they discover it.what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS
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2018-11-18, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Phoenix, AZ
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Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
you can call it good role playing, or whatever but the fact still remains you're using your player knowledge to affect your characters decisions.Empyreal Lord of the Elysian Realm of Well-Intentioned Fail
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2018-11-18, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
This is a Classic DM vs Player problem:
DM: NPC's in the game will have different levels of intelligence, but few will be very dumb
Player: Every NPC must be super dumb all the time so my character can be awesome.
You can basically blame movies, TV shows and video games. And worst of all cartoons. Again. They all very often have very, very, very dumb characters...and for a very simple reason: to make the Stars of the show look Awesome.
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2018-11-18, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS
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2018-11-18, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
That's the good way of doing it yes, but come on, you know there are some DM who are:
DM: All NPCs will instictive know which PC is the best target. Lowely goblins will all act as if shaving off another 3 HP from the party was their life's goal and trying in the face of death will let them die happily
Yes. I can make character uninfluenced by past ones I've made.Last edited by Boci; 2018-11-18 at 09:07 PM.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2018-11-18, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
- Gender
Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
I always use my experience to try and make something fun and coherent. THat said, I make characters with gaps. My fat cloistered GOOLock made errors that the ranger wouldn't, because he didn't know better.
I am coming to hate getting banzai-charged by determined XP meat. It's one thing for goblins, but come on, a fey with higher INT than our wizard should recognize it is a) half dead and b) failing to drop even one of the seven people hurting it.
What if the wizard, before casting simulacrum, has a Diplomacy roll to ask the other wizard to do that again, verrry slowwlyEmpyreal Lord of the Elysian Realm of Well-Intentioned Fail
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2018-11-19, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
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2018-11-19, 04:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
I think it's usually more about that people recognize what they find fun themselves. For example, let's say the party splits up, and one group learns something (like the secret identity of the villain). Then if another character that isn't there acts on that information without any in-character justification, that's simply less fun for me. It's not trying hate fun, it's just a personal preference. No positive thinking will change that. Establishing some logical or arbitrary reason in-game will make it fun, however. It's not about metagaming though, it's about not making too clearly out-of-character decisions.
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2018-11-19, 06:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
That's why you never split the party!
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2018-11-19, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
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2018-11-19, 06:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
This is where I would put on my simulationist hat and ask myself: Why are the skeletons there? How did they get there? Are they the animated remains of a previous battle? If so they're in clumps where they fell fighting each other. Is it a burial chamber? Then they're probably in some sort of organised ranks.
Are they sentries set on purpose? Then there's a clump near the thing that needs guarding then a few more spread out around the cave.
Most of these sort of "does wizard get to play with fireball today" type questions have simulationist answers.
Same with things like sleep. It's reasonable that most intelligent beings will try and do something about it if their fellows suddenly faint and fall over (what they'll do about it is going to depend on how much they like each other, it might be a concerned shake from the city guard or a kick in the head from an orc raider).
But that also depends what else is happening. If it's happening in combat they've got other things to worry about and probably shouldn't. If the players wanted to use it to sneak past and someone made their save, that's the situation now you've got a couple of rounds before the one you missed wakes someone else up.
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2018-11-19, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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2018-11-19, 08:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
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2018-11-19, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
And it costs the NPC an action for that turn, right? ( I am not referring to the optional rule in XGtE).
Interesting technique.
The writing style is annoying, since you have to cut through 50% of the noise to get to the meat. But there's some good stuff in there.
Indeed; his major project at the moment is a mega dungeon/dungeon crawl.
The problem with metagaming comes in two other places.
1: When the DM makes all of his NPCs clairvoyant. This is a problem because it ruins player agency. After all, why layer defenses on yourself if the enemy is instantly going to notice that you're there even when silent and invisible? AngryGM and pretty much all the DND folks out there in the internet have skewered this style of play from time to time. Angry himself writes a lot about 'figuring out the monsters motivation.'
2: When the party is keeping secrets from each other. Obviously if a PC is secretly an incubus, and that gets revealed OOC, its going to be a pain when the paladin keeps trying to use divine sense at random times, and comes up with some BS justification for it.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2018-11-19 at 05:00 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2018-11-19, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
i think a lot of DM don't give the NPC goals, motives and personalities. kobold guarding hatchery are going to fight to the death to protect the young. same kobold will gladly run away at a drop of a pin if there nothing to gain from sticking around other than dead kobolds. don't want your players to treat npcs like bags of HP that drop xp. don't present them as such. the problem i have with random pciking targets is no it is just a stat block then.
what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS
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2018-11-19, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
Well, I should have clarified I do the random thing when there's no obvious reason for the NPCs to pick specific targets. Bunch of goblin archers waiting to ambush the players as they pass through a bend in the path? Random targets.
OTOH one time my players ran into a room hell-bent on destruction. Fighter got a good roll and took away over half the first goblin's HP. That goblin collapsed out of shock, and the one next to him dramatically grasped at his chest and fell over playing dead CUZ SCREW DAT!
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2018-11-19, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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2018-11-20, 06:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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2018-11-20, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS
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2018-11-20, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2012
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2018-11-20, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Spells that encourage the DM to metagame.
The problems with single monster combats are created by the PHB initiative system's insistence on serializing player access to the DM. Toss it and use a better one like a
WEGO variant (everybody declares, then everybody acts, rolling initiative where necessary to resolve ordering dependencies) instead of the Legendary Action kludge. Your players will use more team tactics, won't be bored during each other's turns, and single monsters will not be boring any more.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2018-11-20 at 03:22 PM.
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2018-11-20, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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