So when did orcs become powerhouses?

[Waddacku]

Tolkien's orcs were always man sized but hunched and bow legged. They were never like D&D goblins. When Morgoth created them they were corrupted elves.



(Powerhouse orcs, and especially piglike orcs, are probably Dragon Quest. They're a traditionally midgame enemy there).

Piglike orcs in DQ and other Japanese media originate from the Japanese editions of D&D rulebooks, though. Same thing with kobolds being dog-people in Japanese fantasy works. The entries described their faces as pig- or doglike, respectively, and the readers ran with it.

[Razade]

Piglike orcs in DQ and other Japanese media originate from the Japanese editions of D&D rulebooks, though. Same thing with kobolds being dog-people in Japanese fantasy works. The entries described their faces as pig- or doglike, respectively, and the readers ran with it.

Doglike Kobolds are in the American prints too.

[Yora]

The Warcraft and Warhammer* take on Orcs is what has taken off the most. That is what people think of when they think of Orcs now.

*They're essentially the same, Warhammer was first but Warcraft did more to spread it. They are essentially interchangeable in terms of general design and look. The Warhammer orc now I think has a bigger hold, but there was a good decade or more where Warcraft set the tone more.

That was also my first instinctive guess.

[Zombimode]

Piglike orcs in DQ and other Japanese media originate from the Japanese editions of D&D rulebooks, though. Same thing with kobolds being dog-people in Japanese fantasy works. The entries described their faces as pig- or doglike, respectively, and the readers ran with it.

This discription is not unique to the janapnese Version. It is in fact the in the original english text.

[Ibrinar]

As I remember it the japanese version turned dog faced into dog people or something. But I have read neither version personally.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's in the book too. As the Fire of Orthanc.

Yes, it's in the book. I was wondering whether it's attribution to Saruman was in the book, not the thing itself.

[Giggling Ghast]

Honestly, I think you can put that down to World of Warcraft. It was WoW that really cemented the idea of the super-ripped warrior race.

[Razade]

Honestly, I think you can put that down to World of Warcraft. It was they who pioneered the idea of the muscular warrior race of greenskins.

Not even close. By like, 30 years.

[Giggling Ghast]

No, I stand by my argument. The Uruk-hai were tough, but it was WoW that turned orcs into green-skinned Mr. Universe contestants. (It also gave them an accent other than Cockney chimney sweep.)

[Razade]

No, I stand by my argument. The Uruk-hai were tough, but it was WoW that turned orcs into green-skinned Mr. Universe contestants. (It also gave them an accent other than Cockney chimney sweep.)

The second edition Monster Manual of D&D casts Orcs as muscular brutes. So it can't be WoW. Even if it was something Blizzard did, Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 come before WoW.

The change happened long before video games.

[Erloas]

No, I stand by my argument. The Uruk-hai were tough, but it was WoW that turned orcs into green-skinned Mr. Universe contestants. (It also gave them an accent other than Cockney chimney sweep.)

Yeah, WoW was decade behind the first Warcraft, which was already using the non-Tolkien'isk orc, which was itself about a decade behind Warhammer Fantasy which had their release of Orcs around 1983.
The only people that would see WoW as a driving force for the definition of orc are those that are too young to realize that WoW didn't really do anything new, they just polished a lot of old ideas.

In fact, as the rumor goes, the original Warcraft was pitched to GW as a digital version of Warhammer. They turned it down, so Blizzard changed the name and released it as it's own setting. While Warhammer didn't have the widespread adoption of Warcraft, it was still a driving force in the "nerd subculture" that spawned so many fantasy writers, developers, gamers, etc.
　
Linquistically orc is a modification of ogre, and they have always been large and brutish, but not green. That is going back at least 400 years. So in reality, the Warhammer orc is more of a throwback to the origins of the orc rather than Tolkien's take on them.
And of course the god Orcus is about 1600 years old and fits the same basic theme. Not that I think those have any real impact on the modern knowledge, but could be the origin some history geek used to modernize it in the 70/80s.

　
With nothing to back it up, I also wouldn't be surprised if The Hulk didn't have something to do with them being green. After all he was a large green brute 20 years before the orcs made their modern debute. The general look and feel between Warhammer orcs and The Hulk seems like a bit more than simple coincidence.

[Rodin]

Funnily enough, I think the most original thing Blizzard did was the Terrans from Starcraft. All the other races are coming from very clear sources.

Warcraft Humans -> standard medieval fantasy humans.
Warcraft Orcs -> Warhammer Orcs
Starcraft Zerg -> Warhammer 40K Tyranids
Starcraft Protoss -> Warhammer 40K Eldar
Warcraft III Undead -> Starcraft Zerg (and boy do I remain disappointed by that, they coulda done much neater stuff)
Warcraft III Night Elves -> standard fantasy elves, pick your source.


The Terrans though...those don't map cleanly. The Marines wear power armor, but so does pretty much every Sci-Fi military. They aren't hulking brutes like the Space Marines of 40K, and it all seems modeled on the Southern US, right down to the main Terran faction at the start being the Confederacy. The overall feel is generally "rednecks in power armor", which is a refreshingly different take.

[thorgrim29]

I wonder how far they were into producing Starcraft when Starship Troopers came out? I'm not super familiar with 40k in the 90s but the cerebrates feel more like the brain bug in that than to modern synapse creatures. The burrowing might also be from there (was that in the first game or only introduced in Brood Wars?). Although the brain bug was in the book.

[Erloas]

I wonder how far they were into producing Starcraft when Starship Troopers came out? I'm not super familiar with 40k in the 90s but the cerebrates feel more like the brain bug in that than to modern synapse creatures. The burrowing might also be from there (was that in the first game or only introduced in Brood Wars?). Although the brain bug was in the book.

There was only about 5 months between Starship Troopers (11/97) and StarCraft (3/98) release, so StarCraft would have been mostly done. Game development is at least a couple years. Tyranids had been out for about 10 years then ('87). And of course Aliens was released in ('79)

[Fyraltari]

There was only about 5 months between Starship Troopers (11/97) and StarCraft (3/98) release, so StarCraft would have been mostly done. Game development is at least a couple years. Tyranids had been out for about 10 years then ('87). And of course Aliens was released in ('79)

Starship Troopers, however, was published in 1959.

[Kitten Champion]

The Brood War campaign does look influenced by Verhoeven's Starship Troopers though, especially how the cut-scenes are done as Terran Dominion propaganda which could almost be taken from that movie directly.

On another note, I find the Protoss/Eldar comparison fairly shallow. There are aesthetic similarities, but the Protoss have a widely different characterization and history outside of being an older advanced race with psychic powers. The Protoss are an amalgam of Crystal Spires and Togas civilizations, which as a trope has been done in excess within pulp SF for the last century.

[The Glyphstone]

The Brood War campaign does look influenced by Verhoeven's Starship Troopers though, especially how the cut-scenes are done as Terran Dominion propaganda which could almost be taken from that movie directly.

On another note, I find the Protoss/Eldar comparison fairly shallow. There are aesthetic similarities, but the Protoss have a widely different characterization and history outside of being an older advanced race with psychic powers. The Protoss are an amalgam of Crystal Spires and Togas civilizations, which as a trope has been done in excess within pulp SF for the last century.

It's a pretty strong aesthetic overlap. Aside from the older advanced race with psychic powers and a fascination with crystals, you've also got the splinter faction of 'dark' rebels against the main civilization's restrictive behavioral codes (Dark Templar/Dark Eldar), the habit of preserving their dead in mechanical shells to keep fighting (Dragoons/Wraithguard), the general 'younger races are nothing but inferior pawns in our schemes' attitude (50% of any advanced civilization in Sci-fi having this). Admittedly some of that is stretching, but I can definitely see the Protoss as early, 2e or RT-era Eldar with some significant rejiggering to avoid copyright conflict.

[lord_khaine]

I think those comparisons stretches it to far.
To start with the addition of Dark Eldars came a long time after StarCraft was release.
And while Dragoons are just the cybernetic augumentation of Zealot taken a step further, then Wraithguards are a litteral case of necromancy.

Its not even like they actually share the "younger races are but pawns" attitude.
Both are far more advanced, technologically or socially, than anyone else around them. So on those points they are superior.

And the protoss are a caste-based warrior culture in its prime. They dont really do pawns. If they want you dead then
they are going to run up and smack you in the face with a psyblade. If they fail you will likely earn a thumbs up as long as the fight had been fair.

Eldars meanwhile are the stagnant remnants of what at its core remain a pacifist culture. The majority of them are artist, poets, musicians, craftsmen or scientists.
They really, really dont want to fight if they can avoid it. And thats not only because they have their own personal hell waiting for them in death.

[Fyraltari]

They're both Space Elves, that's about where the likeness ends.

[Kitten Champion]

It's a pretty strong aesthetic overlap. Aside from the older advanced race with psychic powers and a fascination with crystals, you've also got the splinter faction of 'dark' rebels against the main civilization's restrictive behavioral codes (Dark Templar/Dark Eldar), the habit of preserving their dead in mechanical shells to keep fighting (Dragoons/Wraithguard), the general 'younger races are nothing but inferior pawns in our schemes' attitude (50% of any advanced civilization in Sci-fi having this). Admittedly some of that is stretching, but I can definitely see the Protoss as early, 2e or RT-era Eldar with some significant rejiggering to avoid copyright conflict.

The Dragoons pilots aren't dead, they're war amputees in an exosuits. Dragoon and Stalker units aren't really fundamentally different from Terran Power Suits.

The Protoss as a whole don't manipulate or care about other civilizations, it's really not their game. They wanted to kill the Zerg in SC and BW, everything pretty much straightforwardly followed that objective. The only reason the Humans got involved was they were in the way and didn't recognize it, and then the Zerg found Auir and they had bigger issues. If anything they were Kerrigan's pawns in BW, and the pawns of precursor entities schemes in SCII.

They're really not that enigmatic in retrospect. As they're apparently supposed to be like Space Paladins, I guess that's to be expected.

...and while the Nerazim might be cast as "dark", but they're not Protoss Drow. More, Protoss... Romulans to the Vulcans, if you flipped that inside out and back again. The Protoss track fairly well with the Tau - an ideology of greater good and harmony within a certain degree of militancy - more than anything else. The Nerazim don't really fit into anything, they're hermit scholars and adventuring archaeologists? They're pretty chill, really.

Edit: If I had one race to compare the Protoss to, it would be the Minbari from Babylon 5. Except much simpler in terms of writing and conception and... far less petty. Tradition-heavy, cast system, saviour figure, mostly benign or even helpful except when they're all kill-happy, and they've got their fair share of a-holes.

Even comparing them to elves, the elf idea loses all meaning at a certain point. Almost all the Crystal Spires and Toga civilizations are "elves". That's just a shorthand for a better state of being, one without sin or mortality.

[Psyren]

I'm pretty sure both of these are the case, which is why it always saddens me that we keep getting saddled with the WoW model of orcs in just about every fantasy story. Where's my backstabbing, traitorous steampunk horde?
/rantette

Pretty sure Goblins picked up the mantle you're looking for.

Speaking of Warcraft, it's worth noting that the first two games (WC1 and WC2) originally had orc grunts and human footmen being equal in every respect. It wasn't until Warcraft 3 that Orcs became the larger bruiser/tank unit they're known as today, and they picked that up from Starcraft's asymmetrical balance of having a Protoss Zealot being able to 1v1 a zergling or marine with ease.

[Keltest]

Pretty sure Goblins picked up the mantle you're looking for.

Speaking of Warcraft, it's worth noting that the first two games (WC1 and WC2) originally had orc grunts and human footmen being equal in every respect. It wasn't until Warcraft 3 that Orcs became the larger bruiser/tank unit they're known as today, and they picked that up from Starcraft's asymmetrical balance of having a Protoss Zealot being able to 1v1 a zergling or marine with ease.

That's not quite true. In Warcraft 1, humans were only the equal of orcs due to their tech. Humans had metal armor and equipment, while orcs were using rocks and sharp sticks. In WC2 it gets better for the orcs, who learn to smith, but theyre still mostly naked and compensating for it with toughness. It isn't until Warcraft 3 where the tech and size difference became more than aesthetic, but it was always there in the flavor.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915
I'm pretty sure Numenor was supposed to have had steamships and flying machines….

No idea where you got this, but I’ve never seen any hint of these things in the Silmarillion or anywhere else.

Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet
Pig-like orcs can be traced straight to D&D and there's an illustration in 1977 AD&D monster manual.

It’s been a while, but I recall decidedly pig-like orcs in the Ralph Bakshi animated version of Lord of the Rings, which was 1978.

...Or it might have been the Bass animated Hobbit, which was 1977.

.

[AceOfFools]

Easy! The game Heroquest has three green-skinned enemy figurines. The smallest are the Goblins, the bigger, stronger ones are the Orcs, and then there are a couple of slightly stronger and slighty bigger ones that lead the aforementioned, the Fimir.

In point of fact, Heroquest is set in the Warhammer setting, being a Milton Bradly/GamesWorkshop collaboration. According to wikipedia, Fimir were a Warhammer fantasy thing that proved unpopular and was phased out. (They're probably GamesWorkshop IP, so using them in your fictional game is a bit like having giant yellow riding birds called chocobo: i.e. expect to get sued).

So, basically, you're agreeing that this is a Warhammer thing.

Personally, I think it was just common for Tolkien's later imitators to give various Dark Lord's bestial henchmen, which tends to work better narratively if those bestial men are stronger than humans since you want the Dark Lord to be a credible threat to the entire world. Warhammer, Warcraft, and early DnD are but prominent examples of a larger trend. I don't exactly have the scholarship to back this up, however...

[hamishspence]

There is also the "blasting-fire" that the orcs employ at Helm's Deep. In the movies this is attributed to Saruman. I don't believe it is in the book, though I could be wrong.

The book:

Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in.

"Devilry of Saruman!" cried Aragorn. "They have crept in the culvert again, while we talked, and they have lit the fire of Orthanc beneath our feet."

...

"But the Orcs have brought a devilry from Orthanc," said Aragorn. "They have a blasting fire, and with it they took the wall."

EDIT: Apparently this has already been mentioned:

It's in the book too. As the Fire of Orthanc.

Interestingly Gandalf also knows about gunpowder.

Fimir were a Warhammer fantasy thing that proved unpopular and was phased out. (They're probably GamesWorkshop IP, so using them in your fictional game is a bit like having giant yellow riding birds called chocobo: i.e. expect to get sued).

Fimir were derived from an Alan Lee "Formorian" picture:

http://realmofzhu.blogspot.com/2014/...formorian.html

[snowblizz]

The book:

Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in.

"Devilry of Saruman!" cried Aragorn. "They have crept in the culvert again, while we talked, and they have lit the fire of Orthanc beneath our feet."

...

"But the Orcs have brought a devilry from Orthanc," said Aragorn. "They have a blasting fire, and with it they took the wall."

EDIT: Apparently this has already been mentioned:

I couldn't be bothered to look it up exactly. I was checking on a wiki but I was rather certain it was an invention of Saruman not orcs. Not that the text might convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced necessarily. My reading of that line was that it was Saruman's thing, an Orthanc thing rather than orc thing. Though same wiki reminded me Gandalf was big on fireworks.

Fimir were derived from an Alan Lee "Formorian" picture:

http://realmofzhu.blogspot.com/2014/...formorian.html

Yea they are stolen form Irish folklore basically. GW phased them out since they weren't gonna fit in with more modern sensibilities in a game much more likely to be played by minors. And of course Warhammer had to be culled back a bit when it came to creatures as it moved from it's roleplaying roots into a distinct wargame. Probably can't call them "Fimir", but the general idea GW can't stop you from.

And indeed other manufacturers make fomorians of various look and appellation.

[Man on Fire]

Tolkien's orcs were always man sized but hunched and bow legged. They were never like D&D goblins. When Morgoth created them they were corrupted elves.



(Powerhouse orcs, and especially piglike orcs, are probably Dragon Quest. They're a traditionally midgame enemy there).

Piglike Orcs were in very old D&D editions and from there went to Japan. The thing is that in the west Orcs evolved as we started to more and more see them as human, as in being able to have feelings and loved ones and all make their own choices, which came with game growing and welcoming more complexity, while in Japan the only Orc it ever happenned to was Ganon, to the point now he doesn't even look much like an old pig-like orc-type e was originally or like a western Orc for that matter.

[RossN]

Even in Warhammer Orcs being powerhouses is something that definitely shifted over time and as late as 8th Edition the 'basic' front line infantry Orc only had a Strength of 3 (identical to humans.) Granted they had a special rule allowing them to do more damage on the opening round of combat but otherwise there wasn't enough muscle difference to justify a Strength increase. Their Toughness was better than humans (4 vs 3) but only a little. So they were a little hardier than humans but not actually all that much stronger; the walking slab of pure green muscle who can laugh off a cannonball to the face seems to have been a bit of flanderisation.

Oddly because I grew up reading/playing Fighting Fantasy were Orcs stayed fairly puny I've always had difficulty wrapping my head around Warcraft syle Orc-as superbeings territory.

[deuterio12]

Even in Warhammer Orcs being powerhouses is something that definitely shifted over time and as late as 8th Edition the 'basic' front line infantry Orc only had a Strength of 3 (identical to humans.) Granted they had a special rule allowing them to do more damage on the opening round of combat but otherwise there wasn't enough muscle difference to justify a Strength increase. Their Toughness was better than humans (4 vs 3) but only a little. So they were a little hardier than humans but not actually all that much stronger; the walking slab of pure green muscle who can laugh off a cannonball to the face seems to have been a bit of flanderisation.

Warhammer orcs also had crappy Initiative of 2 compared to humies 3, so it was basically more fat than exactly muscle.

[RossN]

Warhammer orcs also had crappy Initiative of 2 compared to humies 3, so it was basically more fat than exactly muscle.

Very true. The early Warhammer orc (and the 'basic' orc of all additions) wasn't quite the death machine orcs seem to have become in more recent stuff. True Black Orcs and 'Big Uns' were more formidable but they were explicitly rare-ish elites not the average grunt.