SAD God?

[Citadel97501]

Am I missing anything or is the following just ridiculous even when compared to other level 20+ characters?

Paladin (Ancients) 7
Bard (Glamour) 7
Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 3
Warlock (Hex Blade) 3 Pact of the Chain

-AC 21+ magic armor (up to 26+ with shield): Plate + Shield + Defense (+ is for magical enhancements on the armor)
-Resistant to all magic, as is everyone within 10' of him...
-2 melee attacks with +11 to hit (before magic weapon bonuses) with Super Smiting...
-Super Familiar that can attack with one of yours, or breathe weapon while invisible for 8d6 at dc 19+
-Find Steed that can use a breathe weapon while invisible for 8d6 at dc 19+.
-Applies a +5 save bonus to all friendlies within 10'
-Temporary health points also that give him 35 temporary hit points and do 35 damage whenever he gets hit, although this is likely better used as a 5th level spell due to spell slots for 25 THP, and 25 damage on hit...
-Knows 4th level bard spells for buffs, can know 2nd level cleric spells, which he casts at level 7 Corrected if he wants?

[Trustypeaches]

Temporary health points also that give him 45 temporary hit points and do 45 damage whenever he gets hit...

First off, this build only gets 5th Level Spell slots, not 9th. You have 10 levels of spellcaster progression (3 Sorcerer 7 Bard). Your 7 Paladin levels and 3 Warlock levels are separate.

Second off, you can only cast Warlock spells with warlock spell slots. So the highest level you could cast Armor of Agathys at is 2nd.

EDIT: Ignore this post I’m a silly

[Crgaston]

First off, this build only gets 5th Level Spell slots, not 9th. You have 10 levels of spellcaster progression (3 Sorcerer 7 Bard). Your 7 Paladin levels and 3 Warlock levels are separate.

Second off, you can only cast Warlock spells with warlock spell slots. So the highest level you could cast Armor of Agathys at is 2nd.

Nope, the Caster Level is 13, so 7th is the highest slot. Paladin levels count as 1/2 rounded down. The warlock levels are calculated separately, but unless this is something from the new errata, you can use Pact spells in regular slots and vice versa.

@OP... you can’t have your steed both invisible AND breathing fire because both spells require concentration.

[Trustypeaches]

Nope, the Caster Level is 13, so 7th is the highest slot. Paladin levels count as 1/2 rounded down. The warlock levels are calculated separately, but unless this is something from the new errata, you can use Pact spells in regular slots and vice versa.

I derped on Paladin spellcaster progression.

[Citadel97501]

First off, this build only gets 5th Level Spell slots, not 9th. You have 10 levels of spellcaster progression (3 Sorcerer 7 Bard). Your 7 Paladin levels and 3 Warlock levels are separate.

Second off, you can only cast Warlock spells with warlock spell slots. So the highest level you could cast Armor of Agathys at is 2nd.

Ninja'd
Page 164
Thank you for having me read the multi-class rules again, as I need to correct my spell levels, unfortunately your numbers are also incorrect unless there was an errata I missed, as the PHB says you add 1/2 Paladin level to spell casting, and the Pact Magic multi-class stuff specifically says you can cast spells back and forth. So that would be 1 level 7, and 1 level 6 spell slot, 2 level 5's, and 3 for the rest.

[SleepIncarnate]

First off, this build only gets 5th Level Spell slots, not 9th. You have 10 levels of spellcaster progression (3 Sorcerer 7 Bard). Your 7 Paladin levels and 3 Warlock levels are separate.

This is not quite true. Your 7 paladin levels count as half (round down) caster levels, so 3. That means you'd have 13 total caster levels, granting up to 7th level slots.

You determine your available spell slots by adding together all your levels in the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard classes, half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes, and a third of your fighter or rogue levels (rounded down) if you have the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster feature. Use this total to determine your spell slots by consulting the Multiclass Spellcaster table.

Second off, you can only cast Warlock spells with warlock spell slots. So the highest level you could cast Armor of Agathys at is 2nd.

This is also not correct. While your warlock spell slots are separate (serving as an extra two second level slots), you can cast any first or second level spell known from other classes using them, or cast warlock spells with other spell slots.

If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.

[JackPhoenix]

First off, this build only gets 5th Level Spell slots, not 9th. You have 10 levels of spellcaster progression (3 Sorcerer 7 Bard). Your 7 Paladin levels and 3 Warlock levels are separate.

Second off, you can only cast Warlock spells with warlock spell slots. So the highest level you could cast Armor of Agathys at is 2nd.

Paladin levels add to the normal spellcasting progression, so he counts as level 13 caster for the purpose of spell slots (3 sorcerer + 7 bard + 7/2=3 paladin).

Warlock's pact magic is indeed separate.

He's got the spells known of a level 3 warlock, but can use any of his available spell slot to cast them, Pact Magic or normal spellcasting.

[Citadel97501]

So other than being a 13th level spell caster for 7th level spells, am I missing anything else? It still seems ridiculously powerful even with the vast shortage of feats which will hurt a lot.

[JackPhoenix]

It's level 20 character with multiple multiclasses. You're missing that you have to get to level 20 first, and you will fall behind while multiclassing, at least in short term.

Plus Dragon's Breath is concentration spell, you can't keep it on both familiar and mount, and can't keep the mount invisible, as Invisibility also takes concentration. And even buffed pets die pretty quickly to AoE's at level 20.

[Crgaston]

So other than being a 13th level spell caster for 7th level spells, am I missing anything else? It still seems ridiculously powerful even with the vast shortage of feats which will hurt a lot.

You can’t “super smite” because you need to be a 5th level bladelock to get Eldritch Smite. Also, I edited my original post (during the ninja storm!) to point out that both Greater Invisibility and Dragons Breath require concentration, so you can’t have an invisible fire breathing steed.

Other than that, yep the synergy with Cha casters is strong.

[Descole]

First off, this build only gets 5th Level Spell slots, not 9th. You have 10 levels of spellcaster progression (3 Sorcerer 7 Bard). Your 7 Paladin levels and 3 Warlock levels are separate.

Second off, you can only cast Warlock spells with warlock spell slots. So the highest level you could cast Armor of Agathys at is 2nd.

This is wrong. Paladin counts as half its level in spell slot progression so the total becomes 3(sorc)+7(bard)+7/2(pal)=13,5., so a lvl 13 spellcaster with lvl 7 spell slots.

There is actually no restrictions of how spell slots are used, any class spell slots can be used by any spell of any class so armour of agathysts can have up to 35 Hp.

But this build lacks a lot of explanations, how do you get an invisible steed and how does it get a breath weapon. What are your stats and your feats because this setup only gives 2 asi.

Is this actually better than a 20 fighter for damage 5 attacks at +8 for 1d10+15 each or 9 attacks with action surge and precision attack for +1d12 to hit and damage on 5 attacks (+5 dex with archery fighting style, crossbow master, sharpshooter and battlemaster)? Total burst 9d10+5d12+9*15= about 200 damage.

Or is it better than wish+forecage+mindblank+banishment+polymorth+fireb all+dimension door+fly that the wizard can cast on a single day?

In short, you get a lot of small things but there are a lot of strong effects at high levels even when one doesn't use any rules tomfoolery (wish+simulacrum).

[SleepIncarnate]

The thing that I think makes this more or less powerful (depending on how many short rests you get per day) is the ability to have the extra pair of second level spell slots that regenerate. That allows for a lot of potential, either as a pair of spells you can cast for other stuff in combat, or utility spells, or whatever. They don't count for smiting slots, sadly, but that's still one of the strengths the warlock has over other casters, as they only need a short rest to recover all of their (non-arcanum) spell slots. It also depends on your spell selections. Honestly though, I think you may be a bit too stretched thin with all of the multis.

If you really want the OP versatility, I'd probably drop either sorcerer or warlock in favor of more levels in bard. Pick up the ritual caster feat to get your familiar if you drop warlock (doesn't get to use one of your attacks, but regular familiars are pretty powerful as is), or something like magic initiate if you drop sorcerer. This way you get access to magical secrets and can pick any two spells from ANY list. I'd suggest dropping more to get to bard 14, but I know the level 7 ancients paladin effect is a big part of the build. But level 14 glamour is just that awesome, as it's basically sanctuary that doesn't drop when you attack, and causes them disadvantage against your spells even if they make it through the sanctuary. Plus another two magical secrets.

Another option is to drop the bard levels and take them in sorcerer for metamagics, a lot of good spells that increase blasting potential, plus a lot of spells shared with bard for the buffing/debuffing (especially since you took divine soul). In fact, the only thing you mention from bard that you like is the buff spells, so this may be a better route for you.

[Descole]

First off, this build only gets 5th Level Spell slots, not 9th. You have 10 levels of spellcaster progression (3 Sorcerer 7 Bard). Your 7 Paladin levels and 3 Warlock levels are separate.

Second off, you can only cast Warlock spells with warlock spell slots. So the highest level you could cast Armor of Agathys at is 2nd.

This is wrong. Paladin counts as half its level in spell slot progression so the total becomes 3(sorc)+7(bard)+7/2(pal)=13,5., so a lvl 13 spellcaster with lvl 7 spell slots.

There is actually no restrictions of how spell slots are used, any class spell slots can be used by any spell of any class so armour of agathysts can have up to 35 Hp.

But this build lacks a lot of explanations, how do you get an invisible steed and how does it get a breath weapon. What are your stats and your feats because this setup only gives 2 asi.

Is this actually better than a 20 fighter for damage 5 attacks at +8 for 1d10+15 each or 9 attacks with action surge and precision attack for +1d12 to hit and damage on 5 attacks (+5 dex with archery fighting style, crossbow master, sharpshooter and battlemaster)? Total burst 9d10+5d12+9*15= about 200 damage.

Or is it better than wish+forecage+mindblank+banishment+polymorth+fireb all+dimension door+fly that the wizard can cast on a single day?

In short, you get a lot of small things but there are a lot of strong effects at high levels even when one doesn't use any rules tomfoolery (wish+simulacrum).

[Unoriginal]

Honestly, what is this character is supposed to be "god" at?

2 attacks at +11? Fighters get 4 of those.

AC 21, 26 with spent spell slots? Many can easily get that. And have more spell slots.

Aura effect and steed? Pure Paladins have better.

Low level spell known and 7th level spell slots at best? Pure casters have way better.

Super familiar? Pure Warlock does it better.

HPs? 10+(6*6)+(5*10)+(4*3) = 108 without CON getting into play. It's not much for a lvl 20 melee PC.

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Now, if you want to make a full character, with stats, feats and the rest, with those levels and then test them in a fight, I'd gladly DM it.

And if other people want to make other lvl 20 builds to compare it to OP's build, I'd DM it too.

[Kaliayev]

-2 melee attacks with +11 to hit (before magic weapon bonuses) with Super Smiting...

If you're looking for a "super smite" build, ancients 8, whispers 5/7, blade hexblade 5/7. The 5/7 depends on what you would like to prioritize. The seven in warlock would give you four invocations, access to shadow of moil, accursed specter, and the separate 4th level spells and slots for eldritch smiting. The seven in bard would give you 11th level caster spell slots, access to greater invisibility, and a couple more bardic features.

The above build would give you psychic blades, divine smite, eldritch smiting, and consistent sources of advantage on attacks (shadow of moil/greater invisibility and darkness with devil's sight). Throw in elven accuracy and GWM for even greater damage output. Eldritch smiting and psychic blades recharge on a short rest, so you can nova all day.

[Nhorianscum]

Am I missing anything or is the following just ridiculous even when compared to other level 20+ characters?

Paladin (Ancients) 7
Bard (Glamour) 7
Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 3
Warlock (Hex Blade) 3 Pact of the Chain

-AC 21+ magic armor (up to 26+ with shield): Plate + Shield + Defense (+ is for magical enhancements on the armor)
-Resistant to all magic, as is everyone within 10' of him...
-2 melee attacks with +11 to hit (before magic weapon bonuses) with Super Smiting...
-Super Familiar that can attack with one of yours, or breathe weapon while invisible for 8d6 at dc 19+
-Find Steed that can use a breathe weapon while invisible for 8d6 at dc 19+.
-Applies a +5 save bonus to all friendlies within 10'
-Temporary health points also that give him 45 temporary hit points and do 45 damage whenever he gets hit...
-Knows 4th level bard spells for buffs, can know 2nd level cleric spells, which he casts at level 7 Corrected if he wants?

Eyballing it but... this looks pretty much straight up worse than a stock standard EK20 at everything but saves (by a slim margin) and spells per day.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, I'm honestly not super impressed. You're giving up a lot of high level abilities and spells to get... well...something that honestly looks a lot like a Paladin. The SAD won't save you--in fact, given the lack of ASIs, you're probably worse off than a single classed character.

[Unoriginal]

I reiterate, though, if you want to test that build, I'm available.

[LudicSavant]

Am I missing anything or is the following just ridiculous even when compared to other level 20+ characters?

Paladin (Ancients) 7
Bard (Glamour) 7
Sorcerer (Divine Soul) 3
Warlock (Hex Blade) 3 Pact of the Chain

-AC 21+ magic armor (up to 26+ with shield): Plate + Shield + Defense (+ is for magical enhancements on the armor)
-Resistant to all magic, as is everyone within 10' of him...
-2 melee attacks with +11 to hit (before magic weapon bonuses) with Super Smiting...
-Super Familiar that can attack with one of yours, or breathe weapon while invisible for 8d6 at dc 19+
-Find Steed that can use a breathe weapon while invisible for 8d6 at dc 19+.
-Applies a +5 save bonus to all friendlies within 10'
-Temporary health points also that give him 45 temporary hit points and do 45 damage whenever he gets hit...
-Knows 4th level bard spells for buffs, can know 2nd level cleric spells, which he casts at level 7 Corrected if he wants?

There seem to be a few errors here, besides what was already corrected.

- In order to get "45 temp hp and 45 damage when you take a hit" you'd need to be using Armor of Agathys with a 9th level spell slot, which you don't have. And it would only hit back against melee attacks, and only while the THP persists.
- I guess this breath weapon is coming from an upcast Dragon's Breath spell? In which case again you don't actually have the spell slots to do that much damage with it (if you're using your highest level one on AoA), and it has the opportunity cost of other good spells that could be placed in your limited high level slots.
- By resistant to all magic, I guess you're talking about the Ancients aura, but that only gives you resistance to damage from spells, not resistance to all magic. If it's doing something other than damage, or if it's not a spell (but still magic), it's not affected by the Ancients ability.

[Snowbluff]

Drop the 3 sorcerer levels, get 3 more bard levels for Greater Find Steed from magical Secret for a batter pet. This will also give you another ASI. Take the breath spell as your other magic secret.

[Ganymede]

Normally, it is a player in my group that gets bored with their PCs and doesn't know what to do with them.

This is the first time I've seen the PC have that attitude toward itself. I mean, come on: what kind of busted backstory would this guy even have?

[LudicSavant]

Normally, it is a player in my group that gets bored with their PCs and doesn't know what to do with them.

This is the first time I've seen the PC have that attitude toward itself. I mean, come on: what kind of busted backstory would this guy even have?

Oath of the Ancients and Glamour Bard seem to go together pretty well as a fun-loving fey champion. Hexblade is an oath to a fey sword. Sorcerer is just natural talent further augmenting the green knight flavor. Actually seems pretty easy to roleplay.

[Unoriginal]

Normally, it is a player in my group that gets bored with their PCs and doesn't know what to do with them.

This is the first time I've seen the PC have that attitude toward itself. I mean, come on: what kind of busted backstory would this guy even have?

Was sent to a paladin chapter by their family.

Later desired to enter politic, studied rhetoric and magic to help that. Became fairly successful.

When they turned 25, divine magic awakened within them due to the circumstances of their birth, which was the reason why their family sent them to the paladins in the first place.

After becoming a decently big name, pissed off the wrong rivals, woke up in an anti-magic cell awaiting for execution. But there was a weapon kept nearby, too, the executioner's axe. And it talked to them. Told them it wanted to leave this blasted place and this grim purpose. And that they would never escape without the axe's magic. So the axe and the prisoner made a pact.

And years after they hung up their sword, they went back to the road, a paladin once more, an axe in hand...

[Ganymede]

Was sent to a paladin chapter by their family.

Later desired to enter politic, studied rhetoric and magic to help that. Became fairly successful.

When they turned 25, divine magic awakened within them due to the circumstances of their birth, which was the reason why their family sent them to the paladins in the first place.

After becoming a decently big name, pissed off the wrong rivals, woke up in an anti-magic cell awaiting for execution. But there was a weapon kept nearby, too, the executioner's axe. And it talked to them. Told them it wanted to leave this blasted place and this grim purpose. And that they would never escape without the axe's magic. So the axe and the prisoner made a pact.

And years after they hung up their sword, they went back to the road, a paladin once more, an axe in hand...

You basically just explained "He was a paladin, then became a bard, then a sorcerer, then a warlock, then a paladin again."

[Unoriginal]

You basically just explained "He was a paladin, then became a bard, then a sorcerer, then a warlock, then a paladin again."

...yes? You asked for a backstory. I provided.

[Ganymede]

...yes? You asked for a backstory. I provided.

Dude, no. I didn't ask you for anything.

I mused on how busted this guy's backstory would be. To your credit, you shared with me a suitably busted backstory, but I did not actually ask you for that.

[Citadel97501]

I am sorry all this build was pretty dirty and not as well thought out as I thought, namely due it being completed at 4 something in the morning. I had brought up the basic idea of a single attribute build

I was simply realizing how effective this style of character is against humanoids, as these types of foes will be the casters which the Ancient Paladin just nullifies, Glamour Bards are equally well suited to being screwy with humanoids due to the level 6 ability as if you share a language you can continue to Command them without costing any spell slots, which you can then use for buffing or feeding your smites. Oh and the command spell being used to prone a foe will allow you to smack down many single target foes if they fail the save, due to having a 34% chance to get a critical hit per round against your hexed target.

[Tvtyrant]

A fun backstory trying to make them work together is a Paladin who is burned ny dragon blood while fighting a red dragon, which resonates with his ancestors blood and he begins to develop magic powers. He begins to lose control of them and changes race to a dragonborn, and is forced to make a pact with a fey to stabilize his blood, and is driven out of his order due to his corruption.

He becomes a Bard in order to watxh over and guide young heroes, retiring into the woods except when called by the story.

It could be unified more by having his blood be a feys, and his pact to stabilize his blood is with his ancestor/mother. His bardic magic is part of training with his relatives/siblings in the feywilds as he embraces his parentage.

[Zene]

It’s a very nice build at L20; and takes good advantage of the fact that Paladin, hexblade, and divine soul are all extremely front-loaded.

I don’t think it blows other L20 builds out of the water, though. Wiz 17/Sorc 3, for example, can do a number of things this one can, and a lot of *other* powerful things too.

[LudicSavant]

Dude, no. I didn't ask you for anything.

I mused on how busted this guy's backstory would be. To your credit, you shared with me a suitably busted backstory, but I did not actually ask you for that.

Why is the backstory "busted"? Seems serviceable.