OOTS #1147 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Thor actually can't do anything about it though. He explicitly stated as much he can't interfere aside from spells due to a bunch of dumb god laws.

So him taking a week or a second is irrelevant. He wouldn't be able to speed up durkons ressurection, even if he wanted to.

Who said anything about speeding up his resurrection? Thor would want to get Durkon's orientation done quick so if he's rezzed ASAP he can come back with all the knowledge he needs, rather than a bunch of sheets missing in the plan notebook.

[Snails]

Well, I just thought it would have been really ridiculous (and kind of sexist) if Hilgya had tracked down Durkon simply for rejecting her after one night. Actually having a child gives her much stronger motivation.

I don't really care to figure out if she's Neutral or Evil, and the Giant seems to be deliberately obfuscating that point.

Okay. I see where you are coming from. Fair points.

On your last point, yes, I would say that The Giant does not see which side of the Evil/Neutral line she falls as super important to defining who Hilgya is as a person. She is individualistic and self-centered to a fault, and those factors are the primary drivers of almost every choice she makes.

[Clistenes]

They don't need to mindwipe the petitioners because those will have already merged with their afterlife planes by the time the next world gets created--the planet creation process takes centuries, according to the dialogue in earlier strips.

Precisely. They can't have Outsiders who don't remember the Snarl coexisting with Petitioners who do for centuries. Sooner or later the knowledge about the Snarl and the previous world will spread from the Petitioners to the Outsiders, and the latter will go gaga...

So either they wait centuries to mindwipe the Outsiders, risking them to go mad during that period of time, or they mindwipe the Outsiders AND the Petitioners...

[AutomatedTeller]

Edit: And I also have said, time and again, people, please, you don't have to build an enormous justification to make a character not-evil just because you like such character. It's OK. You can like an evil character and still be not-evil.

Completely agree with this. It's fiction. Belkar and Thog are awesome characters who are evil. Note that knowing Belkar is real-life would be much less awesome, since his killing random people means people are, you know, dead.

[Particle_Man]

At most a few hours. Clerics get spells at dawn (including Hilgya?) and the fight happened well past midnight.

I think that some clerics get their spells at different times of the day. Not sure when Hilgya would get her spells back. If it is midnight, or even just before dusk, there could be waiting period.

"Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

[Ruck]

Okay. I see where you are coming from. Fair points.

On your last point, yes, I would say that The Giant does not see which side of the Evil/Neutral line she falls as super important to defining who Hilgya is as a person. She is individualistic and self-centered to a fault, and those factors are the primary drivers of almost every choice she makes.

Yup, I agree.

And I think that's why he hasn't nailed it down, too-- because she's willing to do evil, but she's not committed to Evil in the way the Evil characters we've seen are. I'm guessing he didn't want to make a definite statement about how much evil a person like that has to do before they clearly cross the line from Neutral to Evil.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Who said anything about speeding up his resurrection? Thor would want to get Durkon's orientation done quick so if he's rezzed ASAP he can come back with all the knowledge he needs, rather than a bunch of sheets missing in the plan notebook.

Someone mentioned before thor wouldn't allow for the trip to take long, and that it would interfere with durkons ressurection.

It can't interfere with it if it takes as long as say the length it took for roy to be raised. Thor taking a month, a week or a second through the astral plane has no bearing on anything if it takes a long time for durkon to be raised, and we already saw that newly dead party members have a hard time keeping track of time if they don't know ahead of time that time passes.

Hence thor could have taken a week for all we know with all the loopdy loops, and durkon would be too sick to keep track of time, and it would fit with already established canon of the order of the stick, seeing as roy was too distracted to keep track of time with all the fun he was having, durkon being sick would distract him from the passing of time.

Now, with all that said, what time frame do I think passed? maybe like a day or 2, with roy being on point to hurry things along due to his own experience with time in the other world and not wanting durkon to have the same thing happen.

And you know what else? The whole thing could already be wrapped up with the vampire coup. Could be explained in a cut away panel, and while that'd be anti climactic for the online comic, it'd make great bait for the paper back version as a bonus adventure.

But theres also the possibility that durkons ressurected in very little time and they all work together to stop the vampires.

Either one of those would be satisfying for me and I'd have no complaints.

[b_jonas]

Wait. Why do you guys think that the fiends are mindwiped too? Thor specifically says “We have to wipe all the outsiders' memories every time we remake the world because they go a bit nuts if we don't.” That sounds like something that only applies to the Good outsiders that work for the Good gods to run errands in the Good alignment planes. I'm not sure if the Evil gods mind if their Evil servants go a bit nuts. Heck, they might prefer some of them as “nuts”, they may work better that way.

[Rrmcklin]

No, or that card would have gotten played well before now.

It has actually; apparently in book commentary (the first book or something?) that while Hilgya is evil, she didn't really work as well as an evil counterpart to Durkon as the others in the Linear Guild did for their respective ones.

Unfortunately I don't have it on me, but I've seen the section myself.

I thought much of the arguments were "Okay, Hilgya was evil then but is she now?"

[Peelee]

Someone mentioned before thor wouldn't allow for the trip to take long, and that it would interfere with durkons ressurection.

It can't interfere with it if it takes as long as say the length it took for roy to be raised. Thor taking a month, a week or a second through the astral plane has no bearing on anything if it takes a long time for durkon to be raised, and we already saw that newly dead party members have a hard time keeping track of time if they don't know ahead of time that time passes.

Hence thor could have taken a week for all we know with all the loopdy loops, and durkon would be too sick to keep track of time, and it would fit with already established canon of the order of the stick, seeing as roy was too distracted to keep track of time with all the fun he was having, durkon being sick would distract him from the passing of time.

All of that completely ignores why Thor would bother taking so long. Why would he take a week doing loop-the-loops when he knows theres a time crunch? The time-passing thing isn't new to Thor, after all.

[Rrmcklin]

Wait. Why do you guys think that the fiends are mindwiped too? Thor specifically says “We have to wipe all the outsiders' memories every time we remake the world because they go a bit nuts if we don't.” That sounds like something that only applies to the Good outsiders that work for the Good gods to run errands in the Good alignment planes. I'm not sure if the Evil gods mind if their Evil servants go a bit nuts. Heck, they might prefer some of them as “nuts”, they may work better that way.

Presumably because if Thor meant "all Good Outsiders" he would have said that, instead of just "all the Outsiders".

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Someone mentioned before thor wouldn't allow for the trip to take long, and that it would interfere with durkons ressurection.

It can't interfere with it if it takes as long as say the length it took for roy to be raised. Thor taking a month, a week or a second through the astral plane has no bearing on anything if it takes a long time for durkon to be raised, and we already saw that newly dead party members have a hard time keeping track of time if they don't know ahead of time that time passes.

Hence thor could have taken a week for all we know with all the loopdy loops, and durkon would be too sick to keep track of time, and it would fit with already established canon of the order of the stick, seeing as roy was too distracted to keep track of time with all the fun he was having, durkon being sick would distract him from the passing of time.

Now, with all that said, what time frame do I think passed? maybe like a day or 2, with roy being on point to hurry things along due to his own experience with time in the other world and not wanting durkon to have the same thing happen.

And you know what else? The whole thing could already be wrapped up with the vampire coup. Could be explained in a cut away panel, and while that'd be anti climactic for the online comic, it'd make great bait for the paper back version as a bonus adventure.

But theres also the possibility that durkons ressurected in very little time and they all work together to stop the vampires.

Either one of those would be satisfying for me and I'd have no complaints.

Durkon showed up in a different place to roy (much darker sky than the clouds Roy went to). He didn't have any time to go to any of the neutral good or lawful neutral afterlife amenities- and it's probably hardly been 15 minutes because Helgya probably had the diamonds ready to Rez the moment he died.

The reduced sense of the passage of time only happened when they finally went all the way to their respective afterlives.

[Fyraltari]

Someone mentioned before thor wouldn't allow for the trip to take long, and that it would interfere with durkons ressurection.

It can't interfere with it if it takes as long as say the length it took for roy to be raised. Thor taking a month, a week or a second through the astral plane has no bearing on anything if it takes a long time for durkon to be raised, and we already saw that newly dead party members have a hard time keeping track of time if they don't know ahead of time that time passes.

Hence thor could have taken a week for all we know with all the loopdy loops, and durkon would be too sick to keep track of time, and it would fit with already established canon of the order of the stick, seeing as roy was too distracted to keep track of time with all the fun he was having, durkon being sick would distract him from the passing of time.

*Coughs*

I think Durkon and Minrah would have noticed if Thor had stopped to give spells to people.

EDIT: And he would have told them that the moot were over.

*Coughs*

Now, with all that said, what time frame do I think passed? maybe like a day or 2, with roy being on point to hurry things along due to his own experience with time in the other world and not wanting durkon to have the same thing happen. And you know what else? The whole thing could already be wrapped up with the vampire coup. Could be explained in a cut away panel, and while that'd be anti climactic for the online comic, it'd make great bait for the paper back version as a bonus adventure.

So I guess in this scenario, Hilgya just left? Without talking to Durkon at all? What kind of story would that be?
And Durkon was overly pessimistic when he said Roy wasn't prepared for the what the Exarch had in store, and Durkon*'s comment about how playing by the Council of Elder's rules would shield them wasn't foreshadowing of any kind?

That really doesn't sound likely. At all.

EDIT: especially since we've already had the timeskip twist. Just what would be the point?

[danielxcutter]

HURRY IT UP. PLEASE.

At the risk of sounding like elan, and asking a fool hardy question, why?

its been how long? How?

its been 3 days. We took care of things, with hilgyas help. We can go questing now.

wha...buh how? I was only away for like a few hours!

Buddy, believe me, I've been there. Elan, use a montage page to show him what happened and why.

DUN DUN-

Elan please. No dramatic interludes. we're crunched for time as it is.

+1 Internet to you, good sir.

I think that some clerics get their spells at different times of the day. Not sure when Hilgya would get her spells back. If it is midnight, or even just before dusk, there could be waiting period.

"Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

Interestingly, the "Clerics of Good gods pray at dawn and Clerics of Evil gods pray at dusk" thing isn't actually forced by the rules! That is, it is entirely possible for say, a Cleric of Loki to choose to regain their spells at dawn, even if they're evil. In a Villainous Competition optimization round(in the 3.5 forums), there was an entry for a Justice Archon(MM IV) Shadowbane Inquisitor falling without even knowing it, and that was one of the points.

[WolvesbaneIII]

*Coughs*

*Coughs*


So I guess in this scenario, Hilgya just left? Without talking to Durkon at all? What kind of story would that be?
And Durkon was overly pessimistic when he said Roy wasn't prepared for the what the Exarch had in store, and Durkon*'s comment about how playing by the Council of Elder's rules would shield them wasn't foreshadowing of any kind?

That really doesn't sound likely. At all.

EDIT: especially since we've already had the timeskip twist. Just what would be the point?

To that I say

I already said its most likely hilgya just ressurected him, and in like about 1 or 2 days. Continuing to nit pick this is just pointless, but by all means keep going, I sure don't mind repeating myself.

In any case, thor taking a day, a week or a month isn't impossible. The godsmoot vote could be done by now and while it'd be anti climactic, that wouldn't be the worst plot twist ever.

Most likely amount of time? probably a day, 2 maybe, but I wouldn't say any more is impossible. Roy was dead for a long time and didn't realize it. Durkon having the same thing happen isn't impossible given the established precedent.

As for hilgya just leaving, thats a not quite what I was suggesting. Maybe she didn't want to raise him, and needed some time to be convinced.

This is the order of the stick where main characters split off from the party, die in some cases not being raised in a quick fashion, big time jumps happen and is a fantasy setting.

As for it being already over for the vampire coup, yeah that'd be anti climactic, but it could also be hand waved away like "did you think we were just going to sit on our ass while you were dead? we had a cleric with us, and were able to take care of things, though it was difficult. But we managed."

As far as I'm concerned, nothing in this story is impossible outside of certain D&D restrictions, and even then the giant has come up with some interesting work arounds, like home brew spells and items.

And for the most part I agree with you, and I'm only citing certain possibilities, and am not asserting it as fact and must happen this way.

Any way, I look forward to another round of discussion.

Keep in mind, I'm mostly agreeing with you. The occams razor here supports your argument, but we have seen characters make dumb decisions in comic that work against their interests.

Edit:

as to the point of the time skip, there is no point other than it can and has happened. Its not unrealistic given that it has happened before, so not expecting it would be naive, where as expecting it to happen or not to happen would be realistic.

Should it happen? I hope not.

[Peelee]

In any case, thor taking a day, a week or a month isn't impossible.

Neither would everyone going home and having a cup of tea. But if I were to even point that out with any seriousness, I'd need to have a reason why they would do that.

Why would Thor delay?

[Ruck]

EDIT: especially since we've already had the timeskip twist. Just what would be the point?

The only point, as far as I can see, is that it would be a crazy, unexpected twist out of nowhere.

I don't know why people propose crazy, unexpected twists out of nowhere, other than that they like them. They make for bad storytelling, and the twists in OOTS are generally foreshadowed to at least some degree that they'll make sense in the story.

Given the mission the Order has been on for this entire book, "and then suddenly they were in Greysky City instead" makes no sense at all.

[Jasdoif]

Neither would everyone going home and having a cup of tea. But if I were to even point that out with any seriousness, I'd need to have a reason why they would do that.

Thor's "physical aid" is a recipe for tea that grants immunity to energy drain, preparing them for fighting Xykon and/or vampires? Or is chamomile?

[Dion]

Neither would everyone going home and having a cup of tea. But if I were to even point that out with any seriousness, I'd need to have a reason why they would do that.

Why would Thor delay?

I assume Thor has absolutely no control over when Durkon got resurrected. Thor couldn’t have delayed Durkon even if he had wanted to..

So, I’m also going to assume that if Thor took a long time doing loop-the-loops (and I’m not saying he did, but *if* he did), then he probably did it to distract Durkon from realizing how long it was taking back on the material plane to get ready to cast the resurrection.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Neither would everyone going home and having a cup of tea. But if I were to even point that out with any seriousness, I'd need to have a reason why they would do that.

Why would Thor delay?

He isn't. he took as long as it would take for the party to get things done.

He could have hurried if the party were able to get things done in like 15 minutes, and have some fun entertaining his guests if he had like a day before they raised him.

Thor being a god, I'm assuming can keep track of the party while being with durkon. So he should be able to go as fast as necessary.

So thor isn't holding things up by taking a while, and is shown goofing off while flying through the astral plane. So while he didn't speed up durkon ressurection, he didn't delay it either. he had no effect on it.

If he could reasonably take his time with leisurely loopdy loops, then he did. He wasn't exactly going at full speed. His pace was "fast enough" with no real sense of tension. they actually took their time and even had a full blown conversation on top of flying around in the astral plane. The trip home wasn't shown to be much faster. The trip was much less fun, due to everyone being sad about the other worlds, not due to a time crunch. It's essentially as fast as the plot required.

In short, thor had as much time as it took to raise durkon, and whatever time that happens to be is how long the trip through the astral plane was.

I assume Thor has absolutely no control over when Durkon got resurrected. Thor couldn’t have delayed Durkon even if he had wanted to..

So, I’m also going to assume that if Thor took a long time doing loop-the-loops (and I’m not saying he did, but *if* he did), then he probably did it to distract Durkon from realizing how long it was taking back on the material plane to get ready to cast the resurrection.

precisely.

The only point, as far as I can see, is that it would be a crazy, unexpected twist out of nowhere.

I don't know why people propose crazy, unexpected twists out of nowhere, other than that they like them. They make for bad storytelling, and the twists in OOTS are generally foreshadowed to at least some degree that they'll make sense in the story.

Given the mission the Order has been on for this entire book, "and then suddenly they were in Greysky City instead" makes no sense at all.

exactly. That was a joke me and some other people were suggesting, as a joke mind you, but some people didn't realize it was and decided to debate it as a real idea.

Though maybe some people were serious about it.

Hmm.

I guess its hard to tell over the internet and text.

As for the time skip, a few days isn't as much as roys, and wouldn't hurt the story by much, seeing as they delayed going after xykon for this vampire ordeal. Xykon has to go through some more dungeons any way. He'll be busy for a while.

[MADCrab]

It amuses me that in this thread we have people calling Hilgya capital-E Evil because she's talked about murdering Durkon and burning her family home down, as well as a discussion of Slaad reproduction. Slaad, who are A) Chaotic Neutral and B) explode out of somebody's chest Aliens style.

[AutomatedTeller]

Roy was dead a long time, but there was also a lot of climbing and playing blocks in there. Durkon has been in conversation nearly the entire time he's been dead.

I'd guess a couple of hours have passed. Also, that our next set of strips will be reaction of the party to not being dead.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Roy was dead a long time, but there was also a lot of climbing and playing blocks in there. Durkon has been in conversation nearly the entire time he's been dead.

I'd guess a couple of hours have passed. Also, that our next set of strips will be reaction of the party to not being dead.

It sure wouldn't be months, thats for sure. We also don't know how long the trip through the astral plane was. It could be a few minutes, a few hours or whatever the plot calls for.

I sure hope it isn't too long. Though if it was, it's not like we didn't have this happen before.

Did hilgya have ressurection prepared? I don't recall if it was brought up before.

[RaveDave92084]

It sure wouldn't be months, thats for sure. We also don't know how long the trip through the astral plane was. It could be a few minutes, a few hours or whatever the plot calls for.

I sure hope it isn't too long. Though if it was, it's not like we didn't have this happen before.

Did hilgya have ressurection prepared? I don't recall if it was brought up before.

Based on Thor *whispering* some secret that I think has to do with foiling the Exarch's plan with the counsel, I believe the time was likely very short, somewhere between 15 - 60 minutes. No proof, but it seems likely.

The trip through the astral plane may or may not be directly linked to the time it would take in the Prime Material plane. Their personal time in the astral plane could be days or weeks, but only minutes pass on the Prime Material plane.

In short, the time passed for Roy moved at story speed. We will find out how much time has lapsed when Durkon gets rezzed.

I will not be disappointed if it is a couple of minutes have passed or or even a couple of days with an Elan recap.

[Ruck]

Thor's "physical aid" is a recipe for tea that grants immunity to energy drain, preparing them for fighting Xykon and/or vampires? Or is chamomile?

What kind of lame dwarf drinks tea?

[danielxcutter]

What kind of lame dwarf drinks tea?

The kind that knows someone who hates Nale Tarquinson, of course... oh wait, you did that on purpose, didn't you?

[WolvesbaneIII]

Based on Thor *whispering* some secret that I think has to do with foiling the Exarch's plan with the counsel, I believe the time was likely very short, somewhere between 15 - 60 minutes. No proof, but it seems likely.

The trip through the astral plane may or may not be directly linked to the time it would take in the Prime Material plane. Their personal time in the astral plane could be days or weeks, but only minutes pass on the Prime Material plane.

In short, the time passed for Roy moved at story speed. We will find out how much time has lapsed when Durkon gets rezzed.

I will not be disappointed if it is a couple of minutes have passed or or even a couple of days with an Elan recap.

That sounds reasonable. I think a few days would be the most I'd put it at, considering that thor didn't mention a huge time lapse. I'd also buy a few hours, provided hilgya had ressurection prepped and the required diamonds for it.

[Jasdoif]

Thor's "physical aid" is a recipe for tea that grants immunity to energy drain, preparing them for fighting Xykon and/or vampires? Or is chamomile?

What kind of lame dwarf drinks tea?

Hence why the dwarves forgot about it.

[Peelee]

He isn't. he took as long as it would take for the party to get things done.

He could have hurried if the party were able to get things done in like 15 minutes, and have some fun entertaining his guests if he had like a day before they raised him.

Thor being a god, I'm assuming can keep track of the party while being with durkon. So he should be able to go as fast as necessary.

So thor isn't holding things up by taking a while, and is shown goofing off while flying through the astral plane. So while he didn't speed up durkon ressurection, he didn't delay it either. he had no effect on it.

If he could reasonably take his time with leisurely loopdy loops, then he did. He wasn't exactly going at full speed. His pace was "fast enough" with no real sense of tension. they actually took their time and even had a full blown conversation on top of flying around in the astral plane. The trip home wasn't shown to be much faster. The trip was much less fun, due to everyone being sad about the other worlds, not due to a time crunch. It's essentially as fast as the plot required.

In short, thor had as much time as it took to raise durkon, and whatever time that happens to be is how long the trip through the astral plane was.

Again, why would Thor loop-the-loop for weeks? Roy's issues stemmed from nobody having any pressing need to get him back, coupled with things that made him elated. Thor needs Durkon to get back and made him sick. That's the opposite of what we saw with Roy. Roy's experience is a very bad indicator, and the whole argument boils down to "its not impossible, so he would if he could." And were back to dwarves drinking tea.

[Ruck]

Hence why the dwarves forgot about it.

Now that would be a great throwaway joke turned plot point.