OOTS #1147 - The Discussion Thread

[zimmerwald1915]

Anakin brought balance to the force.

Before ep. 3, there was 2 sith, and over 9000 jedi.

After ep. 3, there was 2 sith, and 2 jedi.

Then, when Yoda died, he killed the emperor, to make it 1-1. But then he also realized that Luke wasn't really a true jedi master, as no council ever gave him the rank, so he offed himself, making it 0-0.

Anakin always brought balance to the force, as the prophecy foretold!

Good comment that puts an idea in my head. Fantasy has typically been about magic fading and passing from the world, leaving behind something like the world we know. Star Wars hews to that, with the Force and its users being prominent in the prequels, "all but extinct" throughout the OT, and winnowed down to Luke himself by the end.

What we've seen in modern fantasy (and I'm thinking especially of ASoIaF here), is the idea of magic coming back from its cthonic hiding places to trouble the materialistic, skeptical world. We see some of that in the OT, but especially in the ST and most especially in TLJ where we get an idea of the "people's Force."

[Kish]

I really would like it if posts quoting people on my ignore list would be ignored, too.
Would make threads like this one much easier to read.

Indeed, that would be much preferable.

(Also, being able to make threads, instead of just people's posts, not appear.)

[Dion]

But what if The Dark One is a Slaad!?

It’s all laid out in the book “OotS Infinite: Alternative Timeline Wizards, and Other Stories Rich Will Never Write in Your Universe”.

It carefully explains:

1) TDO is a sentient purple mold
2) Alternative Timeline Wizards create Slaads
3) The exact order of events that led to Higlya being justified in attempted murder
4) The specific and exact reasons why Shojo didn’t send a paladin tiger team to kill Xykon, thus proving that Miko was perfectly justified in all of her actions.
5) How Han Solo might or might not have shot first, depending on the inertial reference frame of the observer.

You can buy the book in any alternative reality bookstore. You’ll notice that many forum posters have already carefully read it and are graciously explaining the contents to us in this very thread.

[Peelee]

Anakin brought balance to the force.

Before ep. 3, there was 2 sith, and over 9000 jedi.

After ep. 3, there was 2 sith, and 2 jedi.

Then, when Yoda died, he killed the emperor, to make it 1-1. But then he also realized that Luke wasn't really a true jedi master, as no council ever gave him the rank, so he offed himself, making it 0-0.

Anakin always brought balance to the force, as the prophecy foretold!

When the doctor told me I had cancer, I was concerned. But then the doctor told me that it metastisized to half my body, so I felt a lot better about that. Half healthy cells, half cancerous cells. My body is now in balance!

Wait no that sounds ridiculous.

[Resileaf]

When the doctor told me I had cancer, I was concerned. But then the doctor told me that it metastisized to half my body, so I felt a lot better about that. Half healthy cells, half cancerous cells. My body is now in balance!

Wait no that sounds ridiculous.

I mean, sure, it does, but in an ironic prophecy, it makes total sense.

[Kish]

I mean, sure, it does, but in an ironic prophecy, it makes total sense.

Just in case you don't know, George Lucas has spelled out that the prophecy was never intended to be ironic. "Bring balance to the Force" did not in any way mean anything bad for the Jedi; it did mean the total destruction of the Sith, and Anakin did accomplish that, eventually, by killing the Emperor and dying himself.

Without Goblin_Priest's handwave to get to Luke not being a real Jedi (...talk about rejecting the entire premise of the movies...), the other way wouldn't even work, since it ends with one Jedi and no Sith.

[Resileaf]

Just in case you don't know, George Lucas has spelled out that the prophecy was never intended to be ironic. "Bring balance to the Force" did not in any way mean anything bad for the Jedi; it did mean the total destruction of the Sith, and Anakin did accomplish that, eventually, by killing the Emperor and dying himself.

Without Goblin_Priest's handwave to get to Luke not being a real Jedi (...talk about rejecting the entire premise of the movies...), the other way wouldn't even work, since it ends with one Jedi and no Sith.

I never took it that way either, but it's funny nonetheless to think that if it had been, it would have been fulfilled when Anakin wiped out the Jedi order.

[Peelee]

I never took it that way either, but it's funny nonetheless to think that if it had been, it would have been fulfilled when Anakin wiped out the Jedi order.

It's also funny to think that Jar Jar could have been a Sith mastermind, but I'm still going to call out anyone who puts that forth seriously.

[Dion]

George Lucas has spelled out that...

Stop. I’ve heard enough. I agree with “Death of the Author” now.

[Peelee]

Stop. I’ve heard enough. I agree with “Death of the Author” now.

I can understand that. Anakin still dies leaving one Jedi and no Sith, though, so the idea still fails.

[The Pilgrim]

5) How Han Solo might or might not have shot first, depending on the inertial reference frame of the observer.

Han Solo Shot First. And the whole point of the Han Solo prequel was to tell the story of how Han Solo learnt to Shot First.

[Dion]

Han Solo Shot First. And the whole point of the Han Solo prequel was to tell the story of how Han Solo learnt to Shot First.

There were no prequels.

[Peelee]

There were no prequels.

What are these "talkies" you speak of? Black and white with a pianist providing accompaniment in the back are the only movies I recognize, thankyouverymuch!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What are these "talkies" you speak of? Black and white with a pianist providing accompaniment in the back are the only movies I recognize, thankyouverymuch!

The only form of valid entertainment is long poems and sagas spoken out loud by professional bards. Preferably blind.

This "writing things down" will destroy culture, just you see.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

The only form of valid entertainment is long poems and sagas spoken out loud by professional bards. Preferably blind.

This "writing things down" will destroy culture, just you see.

Grey Wolf

[horse drawing] [man with spear drawing] [man being speared drawing] [blind professional bard being speared drawing]

[Grey_Wolf_c]

[horse drawing] [man with spear drawing] [man being speared drawing] [blind professional bard being speared drawing]

[hand] [ hand] [ hand] [hand] [hand]

[2D8HP]

What are these "talkies" you speak of? Black and white with a pianist providing accompaniment in the back are the only movies I recognize, thankyouverymuch!

If that's your jam

Spoiler: I have a film recommendation

Show

(Notice a scene from the cover of the 1978 AD&D Players Handbook?

Yep, from a 1924 movie, or an amazing coincidence)

[Resileaf]

[horse drawing] [man with spear drawing] [man being speared drawing] [blind professional bard being speared drawing]

Bah. Back in my day, we had the shadow of our hands on the cave walls from the flickering lights of our fire to entertain us, and we liked it that way!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Bah. Back in my day, we had the shadow of our hands on the cave walls from the flickering lights of our fire to entertain us, and we liked it that way!

"Go on, do Deformed Rabbit... it's my favourite"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

EDIT:

FYI, you didn't edit, you double-posted. Might as well remove the top bit and let the rest stand on its own.

Grey Wolf

[2D8HP]

FYI, you didn't edit, you double-posted. Might as well remove the top bit and let the rest stand on its own.

Grey Wolf

Thanks.

I very much appreciate the latest turn of this thread, I feel very much at home.

Also:

If your clan has discovered fire you are no true Grognard!

[The_Weirdo]

It’s all laid out in the book “OotS Infinite: Alternative Timeline Wizards, and Other Stories Rich Will Never Write in Your Universe”.

It carefully explains:

1) TDO is a sentient purple mold
2) Alternative Timeline Wizards create Slaads
3) The exact order of events that led to Higlya being justified in attempted murder
4) The specific and exact reasons why Shojo didn’t send a paladin tiger team to kill Xykon, thus proving that Miko was perfectly justified in all of her actions.
5) How Han Solo might or might not have shot first, depending on the inertial reference frame of the observer.

You can buy the book in any alternative reality bookstore. You’ll notice that many forum posters have already carefully read it and are graciously explaining the contents to us in this very thread.

Han Solo shot the sheriff first.

But he didn't shoot the deputy first.

[Peelee]

Thanks.

I very much appreciate the latest turn of this thread, I feel very much at home.

Dang, I knew you were old but I didn't think development of the concept of language old. You must have really good insurance.

[2D8HP]

Han Solo shot the sheriff first.

But he didn't shoot the deputy first.

Nope.

Han shot the deputy.

Leia strangled the sheriff.

Dang, I knew you were old but I didn't think development of the concept of language old. You must have really good insurance.

No insurance, just

Spoiler: clean living

Show

Who built Thebes of the 7 gates ?

In the books you will read the names of kings.
Did the kings haul up the lumps of rock ?

And Babylon, many times demolished,
Who raised it up so many times ?

In what houses of gold glittering Lima did its builders live ?

Where, the evening that the Great Wall of China was finished, did the masons go?

Great Rome is full of triumphal arches.
Who erected them ?

Over whom did the Caesars triumph ?

Had Byzantium, much praised in song, only palaces for its inhabitants ?

Even in fabled Atlantis, the night that the ocean engulfed it,
The drowning still cried out for their slaves.

The young Alexander conquered India.
Was he alone ?

Caesar defeated the Gauls.
Did he not even have a cook with him ?

Philip of Spain wept when his armada went down.
Was he the only one to weep ?

Frederick the 2nd won the 7 Years War.
Who else won it ?

[Ruck]

No insurance, just

Spoiler: clean living

Show

Who built Thebes of the 7 gates ?

In the books you will read the names of kings.
Did the kings haul up the lumps of rock ?

And Babylon, many times demolished,
Who raised it up so many times ?

In what houses of gold glittering Lima did its builders live ?

Where, the evening that the Great Wall of China was finished, did the masons go?

Great Rome is full of triumphal arches.
Who erected them ?

Over whom did the Caesars triumph ?

Had Byzantium, much praised in song, only palaces for its inhabitants ?

Even in fabled Atlantis, the night that the ocean engulfed it,
The drowning still cried out for their slaves.

The young Alexander conquered India.
Was he alone ?

Caesar defeated the Gauls.
Did he not even have a cook with him ?

Philip of Spain wept when his armada went down.
Was he the only one to weep ?

Frederick the 2nd won the 7 Years War.
Who else won it ?

Uh... The Stonecutters?

[Goblin_Priest]

When the doctor told me I had cancer, I was concerned. But then the doctor told me that it metastisized to half my body, so I felt a lot better about that. Half healthy cells, half cancerous cells. My body is now in balance!

Wait no that sounds ridiculous.

Yes, no? What is the concept of balance? I mean, Plato would say that a healthy body is a balanced one...

Your methaphor compares two concepts that aren't really opposites. Yes, on the surface, healthy and sick are opposites, but really, one is the absence of all ailment, and the other is the presence of one or more ailments. Is zero the opposite to every other number? I wouldn't say it that way.

Sith are like jedi, but evil. So it's more like 1 and -1. And despite what Lucas said, especially with the expanded universe (I think), and now with the sequels, balance seems to very much be the presence of good and evil, jedi and sith, in roughly similar numbers. Just as how, in the prequels, Anakin was "created" in the outer rim regions, to give him an equal chance to turn good or bad, instead of in the more central systems that would have sent him training as a jedi super early.

I mean, sure, it does, but in an ironic prophecy, it makes total sense.

Also that.

Just in case you don't know, George Lucas has spelled out that the prophecy was never intended to be ironic. "Bring balance to the Force" did not in any way mean anything bad for the Jedi; it did mean the total destruction of the Sith, and Anakin did accomplish that, eventually, by killing the Emperor and dying himself.

Without Goblin_Priest's handwave to get to Luke not being a real Jedi (...talk about rejecting the entire premise of the movies...), the other way wouldn't even work, since it ends with one Jedi and no Sith.

Goerge Lucas also said that Jar Jar was the key to "all of it". So... either take that to mean that Jar Jar is actually the sith master behind everything, or take what Lucas said with a grain of salt. XD

What *is* a jedi? Anakin didn't become a jedi just by wanting to be one. He was trained. He followed rituals. He got recognized by an institution. He worked at it for years under the supervision of elders before gaining the rank of "Jedi Master".

Luke? He gets a crash course by Yoda, then waves his sword around, and fancies himself "jedi master" for it. Does he really qualify? If he does, does Leia qualify?

In Ep 1, don't they say that they believe the Sith to be exterminated, or legends of the past? How would it even make sense, "to eradicate the sith", if they don't even exist (anymore) to begin with? Why would Qui-Gon be so damned convinced that Anakin would destroy an evil that he doesn't even believe exists?

I'm sure Lucas saw it that way, but it doesn't really make much sense.

I never took it that way either, but it's funny nonetheless to think that if it had been, it would have been fulfilled when Anakin wiped out the Jedi order.

Indeed, for a prophecy to be true, how many times do you need to accomplish something? Does it need to be permanent? He brought the numbers of jedi equal to the number of siths in ep. 3. The rest is all bonus, really.

It's also funny to think that Jar Jar could have been a Sith mastermind, but I'm still going to call out anyone who puts that forth seriously.

I just did above. ;)

I can understand that. Anakin still dies leaving one Jedi and no Sith, though, so the idea still fails.

Unless you hadwave Luke as not really being jedi.

Also, the force doesn't balance instantly. It pulls the average towards the center. For example, when both Obi One and Yoda are dead, you still have two siths, and, AT MOST, one jedi. Takes a bit of time to kill the sith.

[Peelee]

Yes, no? What is the concept of balance? I mean, Plato would say that a healthy body is a balanced one...

Your methaphor compares two concepts that aren't really opposites. Yes, on the surface, healthy and sick are opposites, but really, one is the absence of all ailment, and the other is the presence of one or more ailments. Is zero the opposite to every other number? I wouldn't say it that way.

Sith are like jedi, but evil

Murderers are like cops, but evil. Am I doing this argument right? It seems like I'm doing this argument right.

Goerge Lucas also said that Jar Jar was the key to "all of it". So... either take that to mean that Jar Jar is actually the sith master behind everything, or take what Lucas said with a grain of salt. XD

Jar Jar got elected Senator, and was the instigator for giving Palpatine the emergency powers he needed to become emperor. Just because you don't follow events doesn't mean they didn't happen.

What *is* a jedi?

Someone trained in the Force and accepted by the other Jedi. Pretty easy concept there, gotta say.

Anakin didn't become a jedi just by wanting to be one. He was trained. He followed rituals. He got recognized by an institution. He worked at it for years under the supervision of elders before gaining the rank of "Jedi Master".

Anakin was never granted the rank of Jedi Master.

Luke? He gets a crash course by Yoda, then waves his sword around, and fancies himself "jedi master" for it.

He calls himself a Jedi, not a master. See above.

In Ep 1, don't they say that they believe the Sith to be exterminated, or legends of the past? How would it even make sense, "to eradicate the sith", if they don't even exist (anymore) to begin with? Why would Qui-Gon be so damned convinced that Anakin would destroy an evil that he doesn't even believe exists?

You make an excellent point for the whole idea of the prophecy not making much sense to begin with

Indeed, for a prophecy to be true, how many times do you need to accomplish something? Does it need to be permanent? He brought the numbers of jedi equal to the number of siths in ep. 3.

Before Disney wiped the slate, there were more than two Jedi who escaped Order 66. So by your own argument, no, the numbers weren't equal.

Unless you hadwave Luke as not really being jedi.

You explicitly admit it has to be a handwave for that theory to work, then?

Also, the force doesn't balance instantly. It pulls the average towards the center.

[citation required]

[Dion]

You explicitly admit it has to be a handwave for that theory to work, then?

What is the Etymology of “handwave”? Is it from the Obi Wan handwaving scene in Star Wars, or is it older?

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: clean living

Show

Who built Thebes of the 7 gates ?

In the books you will read the names of kings.
Did the kings haul up the lumps of rock ?

And Babylon, many times demolished,
Who raised it up so many times ?

In what houses of gold glittering Lima did its builders live ?

Where, the evening that the Great Wall of China was finished, did the masons go?

Great Rome is full of triumphal arches.
Who erected them ?

Over whom did the Caesars triumph ?

Had Byzantium, much praised in song, only palaces for its inhabitants ?

Even in fabled Atlantis, the night that the ocean engulfed it,
The drowning still cried out for their slaves.

The young Alexander conquered India.
Was he alone ?

Caesar defeated the Gauls.
Did he not even have a cook with him ?

Philip of Spain wept when his armada went down.
Was he the only one to weep ?

Frederick the 2nd won the 7 Years War.
Who else won it ?

I really like that, but I wouldn't forgive myself if I didn't point out that Alexandre never conquered India... Because his army wouldn't let him.

Yes, no? What is the concept of balance? I mean, Plato would say that a healthy body is a balanced one...

What if you asked the guys the Jedi are modelled after, rather than Plato?

Your methaphor compares two concepts that aren't really opposites. Yes, on the surface, healthy and sick are opposites, but really, one is the absence of all ailment, and the other is the presence of one or more ailments. Is zero the opposite to every other number? I wouldn't say it that way.

No it's a good one. Health is when your body works harmonously, cancer, on the other hand, is when some cells stop fulfilling their function are breed disproportionnately: A lack of balance.

Sith are like jedi, but evil.

Nope. Jedi strive to discpline themselves so they can be flow with Force/Universe, while Sithrevels in their passions and desires. It's about self-control and indulgence

So it's more like 1 and -1. And despite what Lucas said, especially with the expanded universe (I think), and now with the sequels, balance seems to very much be the presence of good and evil, jedi and sith, in roughly similar numbers.

Hmm, No?

Spoiler: The best scene in TLJ

Show

Notice how Luke dismisses the idea that the Light would be diminished by the loss of the Jedi?
Or how the Dark Side isn't meantionned as being part of the Balance?

Just as how, in the prequels, Anakin was "created" in the outer rim regions, to give him an equal chance to turn good or bad, instead of in the more central systems that would have sent him training as a jedi super early.

I'd like to know your sources on the reason the Force does stuff.

Goerge Lucas also said that Jar Jar was the key to "all of it". So... either take that to mean that Jar Jar is actually the sith master behind everything, or take what Lucas said with a grain of salt. XD

The key to the success of the film. Because he honestly thought Jar Jar was going to be a fan-favourite. Jar Jar was also a pretty important stepping-stone in integrating CGI characters in live-actions films.

What *is* a jedi? Anakin didn't become a jedi just by wanting to be one. He was trained. He followed rituals. He got recognized by an institution. He worked at it for years under the supervision of elders before gaining the rank of "Jedi Master".

Luke? He gets a crash course by Yoda, then waves his sword around, and fancies himself "jedi master" for it. Does he really qualify? If he does, does Leia qualify?

Yoda said Luke would be Jedi when he defeated Vader. And he did.
The Emperor, the guy who knew the JEdi well enough to manipulate them for years and wrap two of their best around his fingers called Luke a Jedi. And indeed that only happens Luke defeats Vader and refuses to give in to anger. Darth Sidious knows a Jedi when he sees one.

What more endorsement do you want than Sidous and Yoda? Being mostly self-taught doesn't disqualify Luke. He has the techniques and he has the philosophy down pat.

In Ep 1, don't they say that they believe the Sith to be exterminated, or legends of the past? How would it even make sense, "to eradicate the sith", if they don't even exist (anymore) to begin with? Why would Qui-Gon be so damned convinced that Anakin would destroy an evil that he doesn't even believe exists?

Funny that, Qui-Gon is both the only Jedi to believe Anakin is the Chosen One and that the Sith are back. Until he dies, at which point the Council belives both.

I'm sure Lucas saw it that way, but it doesn't really make much sense.

Makes more sense than people believing the Jedi wnated more evil to happen.

Unless you hadwave Luke as not really being jedi.

Why, oh why would we handwave away the main character arc of the Original Trilogy?

EDIT:

Jar Jar got elected Senator, and was the instigator for giving Palpatine the emergency powers he needed to become emperor. Just because you don't follow events doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Wasn't Jar Jar "deputee Senator" or "Representant" or something? I think he only got a vote because Padmée was away.

Anakin was never granted the rank of Jedi Master.

What? How can you do this? This is outrageous. It's unfair.

You make an excellent point for the whole idea of the prophecy not making much sense to begin with

It really doesn't. And is completely unnecessary.

Before Disney wiped the slate, there were more than two Jedi who escaped Order 66. So by your own argument, no, the numbers weren't equal.

And a few others after two. Plus all the freaking Darksiders.

What is the Etymology of “handwave”? Is it from the Obi Wan handwaving scene in Star Wars, or is it older?

Probably the hand motion people do when dismissing something. You know kind of like you're pushing something away?

[Peelee]

Just as how, in the prequels, Anakin was "created" in the outer rim regions, to give him an equal chance to turn good or bad, instead of in the more central systems that would have sent him training as a jedi super early.

I'd like to know your sources on the reason the Force does stuff.

Especially with Palpatine all but saying, "hey, there's like a huge chance you were created by my old master."