General Food Discussions

[Peelee]

Sure, but it wasn't the only restaurants I was taken to (I remember one halfway between Houston and Dallas we stopped at that made not such claim), and everywhere I went that server barbecue served the exact same meat. Now, I haven't been to Alabama, so maybe it is different {checks map} three states over, but I'm sorry, I was not impressed with US barbecue, it is most definitely not something you guys should be boasting about, not unless the ones in the rest of the country are substantially different from the ones in Texas.

Grey Wolf

Honestly, Tennessee is where you're going to want to hit after being disappointed like that. If you don't get jaw-droppingly good stuff in Memphis or Nashville, then maybe American bbq just isn't to your taste.

Bytheway, if you're ever in Birmingham, Dreamland and Jim n' Nicks. It's not Memphis good, but it's still damned good.

[tyckspoon]

But that too was too high a bar for "the Best Barbecue in Texas". Bland meat, with all flavour concentrated in a narrow strip at the edge, way too spicy compared to the rest, and not blending in the slightest. The sauce was abysmal. They even didn't manage to get the bread right. It was edible, given sufficient amounts of Heinz Ketchup is about all I can say. (I did sort of like the mashed potatoes, although I prefer them pureed).

That sounds like.. probably brisket? That's the cut of meat most identified with Texas-style barbecue, as well as a general attitude that the meat itself should be good enough and you shouldn't need sauce to make it taste good (which probably transfers to those places not being too concerned about whether or not they have good sauce.) Flavoring meat to the inside is actually really hard - no matter how long you leave it sitting in a rub or marinade or smoking over whatever kind of wood the proprietor swears by as their 'secret recipe' it's not going to extend very far past the outer crust. What you're describing sounds like they were cooking an overly-large cut; if you want flavoring to get into all the meat, you either need to cut it apart and season the separate slices, or start with smaller bits of meat like ribs or pork loin.

A non-Texan style of barbecue probably would suit you better, although sadly Texas has kind of managed to export the idea of brisket as 'the correct barbecue meat' to a lot of the rest of the US. Most of the other regional variants of barbecue are more identified with their sauces and less obsessed about the bare meat, tho, which usually results in more evenly seasoned meat and more distinct sauce flavors (in non-Texan barbecue the traditional preparation is more likely to be something like pulled pork or chicken, where the barbecuing process is used to soften and cook the meat and it is then pretty thoroughly blended with the sauce for flavoring.)

[Peelee]

A non-Texan style of barbecue probably would suit you better, although sadly Texas has kind of managed to export the idea of brisket as 'the correct barbecue meat' to a lot of the rest of the US. Most of the other regional variants of barbecue are more identified with their sauces and less obsessed about the bare meat, tho, which usually results in more evenly seasoned meat and more distinct sauce flavors (in non-Texan barbecue the traditional preparation is more likely to be something like pulled pork or chicken, where the barbecuing process is used to soften and cook the meat and it is then pretty thoroughly blended with the sauce for flavoring.)

True. When I hear "barbecue," I think pulled pork and sauce. I'll never turn down a good brisket (and, fortunately, I've never had a bad brisket), but pulled pork slathered with a fine barbecue sauce is where it's at.

[Anonymouswizard]

Come on down here, have some fried chicken and barbecue, and we'll see if we can't change your mind.

Nah, not the right fine of year to put a barbeque out.

(Also typical Americans, ignoring all the good in British cuisine and then being shocked when we don't jump on your own.)

In all honesty? Even the best fried chicken isn't as good as a good savoury pudding, and while I've never had American Barbeque I'm not sure why you insist on putting sauces on grilled meat.

Plus it'll all pale in comparison to bangers and mash.

Oh really?

... First off two things:

1) I have never seen an 'American foods' isle in any supermarket I've been in.

2) Such isles are mainly there for Americans living in the UK.

Now, some notes about how American sweets are seen here:
-Your chocolate is seen as anemic, and not real chocolate (especially Hershies). We just get Dairy Milk instead (and moan about Craft attiring Cadbury's). Actually my family in the US asks us to bring chocolate when we visit.
-Your cereals are seen as overly sugary.
-You really don't know what a pudding is.
-Most American sweet foods ate viewed by the British as processed and lacking in flavour.

I mean, seriously, have you ever had dessert at an English pub, or tried some of the more well known English sweets? (I recommend Malteasers, they're legitimately amazing.) I actually get why people have such a problem with our savoury dishes, we never developed the most complex ones, but our deserts and sweets are bursting with flavour. Plus we just have a wider variety of sweets, I'm okay for Jelly Babies but could go for some Wine Gums.

[Peelee]

Nah, not the right fine of year to put a barbeque out.

Home cooked, maybe. The restaurants are always running, though.

(Also typical Americans, ignoring all the good in British cuisine and then being shocked when we don't jump on your own.)

Ha! To be fair, I haven't had much chance to have British cuisine. Not a lot of British restaurants in the States (I'm assuming Gordon Ramsay owned places don't count). I would very much like to try a lot of it. Only thing I've ever had was fish n chips, and I'm not even certain it was the right fish.

In all honesty? Even the best fried chicken isn't as good as a good savoury pudding, and while I've never had American Barbeque I'm not sure why you insist on putting sauces on grilled meat.

A.) I've never had what yall call pudding, to the best of my knowledge (see above), but I'm pretty damn certain you haven't had the best fried chicken (which, for me, was in New Orleans).
2.) For reals, have a pulled pork sandwich from Dreamland and you just try to tell me that again.

2) Such isles are mainly there for Americans living in the UK.

I can absolutely, positively guarantee you they are not. Or, at the very least, if they are, then it was conceived and executed by Michael Scott working with David Brent. I've never met an American who didn't laugh at the American aisle when I've shown them pictures.

Now, some notes about how American sweets are seen here:
-Your chocolate is seen as anemic, and not real chocolate (especially Hershies). We just get Dairy Milk instead (and moan about Craft attiring Cadbury's). Actually my family in the US asks us to bring chocolate when we visit.
-Your cereals are seen as overly sugary.
-You really don't know what a pudding is.
-Most American sweet foods ate viewed by the British as processed and lacking in flavour.

No argument on the chocolate, especially Hershey's.
Kraft, not Craft, is the bane of existence. I haven't eaten Cadbury's in years, because we just have it filled with sugary lard, to the best I can tell. It's the cheapest filling I think they can legally have. And don't even get me started on their American "cheese". I've had actual American cheese. Still thought it wasn't really filling any niches in the cheese market, but it was pretty good, at least. But the processed, individually wrapped crap? A pox upon the house of those who created and maintained such horrors.

I mean, seriously, have you ever had dessert at an English pub, or tried some of the more well known English sweets? (I recommend Malteasers, they're legitimately amazing.) I actually get why people have such a problem with our savoury dishes, we never developed the most complex ones, but our deserts and sweets are bursting with flavour. Plus we just have a wider variety of sweets, I'm okay for Jelly Babies but could go for some Wine Gums.

My candy is German. Haribo fo' life, yo!

[Anonymouswizard]

Blame misspelling Kraft on my phone.

Also a friend pointed out to me that having better sweets than the Americans is like kicking a puppy, it's just not worth bragging about.

(Agreeing on the Haribo, although I have a preference for Bassets & Co.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c
I once spent some time in Texas….

There’s your problem right there.

To the suggestions that Peelee made, I would also recommend you try some Carolina pulled pork, because that, my friend, is barbecue.

And then there’s Brazil. Churrasco. Just…churrasco. I will say no more.

Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard
I mean, seriously, have you ever had dessert at an English pub….?

I expect I did, but it pales in comparison to the desserts I had in Paris, Berlin, Leiden, Stockholm and Madrid.

Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard
...having better sweets than the Americans is like kicking a puppy....

See above.

[veti]

In my experience, different national cuisines are tailored to different taste palates, in the same way as different languages use different sets of phonemes. It takes time in a foreign country to adjust your tastebuds to local food, in the same way as it takes time to attune your ears to the local accent.

[Rockphed]

And don't even get me started on their American "cheese". I've had actual American cheese. Still thought it wasn't really filling any niches in the cheese market, but it was pretty good, at least. But the processed, individually wrapped crap? A pox upon the house of those who created and maintained such horrors.

"American" cheese performs well when melted, and melts at a consistent, low temperature. Thus it is the standard cheese for putting on cheeseburgers and grilled-cheese sandwiches. Cheddar or provolone or muenster all taste better, but american is much easier to melt. And the individually wrapped slices make it much easier to portion out, not least because american is too soft to cut properly.

[the_brazenburn]

"American" cheese performs well when melted, and melts at a consistent, low temperature. Thus it is the standard cheese for putting on cheeseburgers and grilled-cheese sandwiches. Cheddar or provolone or muenster all taste better, but american is much easier to melt. And the individually wrapped slices make it much easier to portion out, not least because american is too soft to cut properly.

I like Swiss cheese on burgers. American is just flavorless.

BTW, I shall change the thread title to "General Food Discussions" so that we don't have to worry about "staying on topic".

[Rockphed]

I won't disagree with you on the flavor content of "american" cheese. But, when you want melted cheese on something, and only care that it is hot and slightly higher in fat and protein than before, "american" cheese fits the bill perfectly.

[Anonymouswizard]

But no cheese beats a good chunk of Stilton.

[the_brazenburn]

But no cheese beats a good chunk of Stilton.

Blue cheese forever!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Honestly, Tennessee is where you're going to want to hit after being disappointed like that. If you don't get jaw-droppingly good stuff in Memphis or Nashville, then maybe American bbq just isn't to your taste.

OK, but at that point this is not "US food". It's "local cuisine", same as haggis isn't "UK food". You can't try to convince me that the US is better at food than UK by claiming "barbecue" if it turns out the only place in the US I can get decent barbecue is a couple of cities.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I like Swiss cheese on burgers. American is just flavorless.

I won't disagree with you on the flavor content of "american" cheese. But, when you want melted cheese on something, and only care that it is hot and slightly higher in fat and protein than before, "american" cheese fits the bill perfectly.

Again, my issues are with processed American, or as Rockphed says, "American." Non-processed American cheese was actually not bad.

OK, but at that point this is not "US food". It's "local cuisine", same as haggis isn't "UK food". You can't try to convince me that the US is better at food than UK by claiming "barbecue" if it turns out the only place in the US I can get decent barbecue is a couple of cities.

Grey Wolf

A.) You know why chains are so popular? Because if you hop over to an Olive Garden in Idaho or New York or Mississippi or Arizona and order the lasagna, you're going to get the exact same lasagna. It's consistent. There's nothing to worry about. It may not be fantastically good lasagna, but you know exactly how it's going to taste. Can't say that for standalone restaurants. You can absolutely get fantastic barbecue in Texas. Hell, you can get great barbecue in Minnesota. It's just going to be a lot harder to find. If you enjoy a full English breakfast, then I absolutely guarantee there's a bunch of places in England that make a craptastic full English breakfast such that after several attempts you could just throw your hands up and wonder what the hell these Brits are always talking about when they go on about it.

2.) Even accepting the regional argument, America is a honking big country. It's like China; the Sichuan province is far from the ocean and their cuisine uses a lot of spices and is known for heavily flavored, spicy foods, while the Guangdong province is on the ocean, has a lot of seafood, and has much milder foods. I'm not going to go to Wuhan and complain that they don't make seafood as good as in Hong Kong, so their dishes aren't really Chinese food, they're regional food. Southern food is a subset of American food, but that doesn't make it any less American.

iii.) Staying purely on the historical side of this, the reason the Deep South is where you'll find the best barbecue is that it originated as slave food; ribs and wings were given to the slaves, since they had very little meat on them, and when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. They developed cooking methods and sauces to make the meager meats more enjoyable, and it branched out from there. Traditional American playfights aside, Texas was historically never part of the Deep South culturally, and the DS culture (again, primarily being a hotbed of slavery) is what developed barbecue into what it is today. The "stick to Memphis and my home city" bit is just traditional American playfighting, to be fair; you can find great barbecue in a lot more places. Just don't make me say that again, I hate giving non-AL states too much credit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You can absolutely get fantastic barbecue in Texas.

Except I can't. Local guides clearly consider "fantastic barbecue" something that is bland, tasteless and frankly something I wouldn't in good conscience feed to a dog. The locals assured me it was magnificent, by their standards of barbecue, just as some brits insist that their boring, plain meats are excellent. But they aren't, which was my point from the start. They took a piece of edible material with inherent flavour, and treated in such a way that the flavour was removed rather than enhanced.

This wasn't "I tried to find a good restaurant and failed". This was "The locals took me to the best they knew, told me it was indeed what barbecue was supposed to taste like, and it wasn't anything to write home about".

iii.) Staying purely on the historical side of this, the reason the Deep South is where you'll find the best barbecue is that it originated as slave food

All of which is perfectly true, but if anything makes this whole "The US is better at food than UK because barbecue" be an even weirder proclamation, since it seems you are co-opting African American cuisine and claiming it for the entire US?

Sorry, that is actually deeply disturbing. It's like claiming Roma accomplishments for whatever country has been kicking them around.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Except I can't. Local guides clearly consider "fantastic barbecue" something that is bland, tasteless and frankly something I wouldn't in good conscience feed to a dog. The locals assured me it was magnificent, by their standards of barbecue, just as some brits insist that their boring, plain meats are excellent. But they aren't, which was my point from the start. They took a piece of edible material with inherent flavour, and treated in such a way that the flavour was removed rather than enhanced.

This wasn't "I tried to find a good restaurant and failed". This was "The locals took me to the best they knew, told me it was indeed what barbecue was supposed to taste like, and it wasn't anything to write home about".

Yeah, I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the local guides who like crappy bbq. Though the chance does exist that you might just not like what we consider good, taste being subjective and all.

All of which is perfectly true, but if anything makes this whole "The US is better at food than UK because barbecue" be an even weirder proclamation, since it seems you are co-opting African American cuisine and claiming it for the entire US?

Sorry, that is actually deeply disturbing. It's like claiming Roma accomplishments for whatever country has been kicking them around.

Grey Wolf

I see it as no different than calling Creole (French American developed cuisine) American food, albeit with a significantly worse history.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the local guides who like crappy bbq.

Fair enough, but there was a lot of "well, you, Grey Wolf, should've known better than to got to Texas for barbecue", which does feel like I'm getting blamed for this.

Though the chance does exist that you might just not like what we consider good, taste being subjective and all.

I like hamburgers. And corn on the cob. And coke. In fact, in general, I like a lot of the foods people from outside the US do associate to the US. Heck, much of what I know about cooking I learnt from Americans (Alton Brown and America's Test Kitchen, which has America right there on the name).

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Fair enough, but there was a lot of "well, you, Grey Wolf, should've known better than to got to Texas for barbecue", which does feel like I'm getting blamed for this.

I read (and wrote) that as ripping on Texas. Regardless, sorry if I came off that way. I blame Texas.

[Kyrell1978]

True. When I hear "barbecue," I think pulled pork and sauce. I'll never turn down a good brisket (and, fortunately, I've never had a bad brisket), but pulled pork slathered with a fine barbecue sauce is where it's at.

Ribs are my bbq thing. I'd also like to throw Kansas City in there for places to grab bbq from. It's a wet bbq town but there are a few places (Zarda and KC Joes especially) that have a wonderful dry rub rib that you can certainly eat without the sauce (it's good with the sauce too though).

[Peelee]

Ribs are my bbq thing. I'd also like to throw Kansas City in there for places to grab bbq from.

That reminds me...

I like hamburgers.

Then you'd love barbecue up north, because they are uncultured barbarians who call hamburgers and hot dogs "barbecue."

[Anonymouswizard]

Just as a note, my general food views are:
-The Chinese have the best savoury dishes, closely followed by the Vietnamese and the Japanese (probably the Koreans as well, but I've never had Korean food). Americanised Chinese food is nowhere near as nice.
-The French are amazing if you want something small, but a full meal ends up a bit lacking. Also number 2 for cheese.
-The Russians have the best pies. Yeah, was totally surprised by that one.
-English cuisine is not something I'd make to impress, barring a full roast, but has it's appeal in the day to day (mainly when I need to use up some tough meat). I stand my ground by our deserts despite the stodge, and we have the best cheese in the world.
-All others I have no real opinion on.

[Peelee]

English cuisine is not something I'd make to impress, barring a full roast, but has it's appeal in the day to day (mainly when I need to use up some tough meat). I stand my ground by our deserts despite the stodge, and we have the best cheese in the world.

No argument on the cheeses, but desserts? If we take the "having better sweets than the Americans is like kicking a puppy, it's just not worth bragging about" analogy further, not kicking a puppy to begin with is kind of the lowest possible bar to set. You can talk your chocolates up all you want, but you'll never be as good as Alpine stuff, for example.

[Spacewolf]

No argument on the cheeses, but desserts? If we take the "having better sweets than the Americans is like kicking a puppy, it's just not worth bragging about" analogy further, not kicking a puppy to begin with is kind of the lowest possible bar to set. You can talk your chocolates up all you want, but you'll never be as good as Alpine stuff, for example.

Eh I wouldn't really agree alpine stuff isn't really any better than British stuff.

[Peelee]

Eh I wouldn't really agree alpine stuff isn't really any better than British stuff.

Lies and falsehoods! You can take my Milka from my cold, dead, chocolatey hands.

[Anonymouswizard]

No argument on the cheeses, but desserts? If we take the "having better sweets than the Americans is like kicking a puppy, it's just not worth bragging about" analogy further, not kicking a puppy to begin with is kind of the lowest possible bar to set. You can talk your chocolates up all you want, but you'll never be as good as Alpine stuff, for example.

I never claimed not to be biased. I'm used to English style desserts, therefore I'll rate them highly

[Peelee]

I never claimed not to be biased. I'm used to English style desserts, therefore I'll rate them highly

That's totally fair, I'll admit. Also, I have no idea who came up with lemon meringue pie, but they deserve a top spot in my list. Here's your chance to make me eat my words, UK! Convince me that was y'all!

[tyckspoon]

That's totally fair, I'll admit. Also, I have no idea who came up with lemon meringue pie, but they deserve a top spot in my list. Here's your chance to make me eat my words, UK! Convince me that was y'all!

Wikipedia (have not checked on the cites for it, so salt appropriately) claims the recipe is traced back to a Swiss baker who lived in Romandy. It also says similar recipes are noted coming from Dorset, which is an English area, so.. possibly?

[halfeye]

No argument on the cheeses, but desserts? If we take the "having better sweets than the Americans is like kicking a puppy, it's just not worth bragging about" analogy further, not kicking a puppy to begin with is kind of the lowest possible bar to set. You can talk your chocolates up all you want, but you'll never be as good as Alpine stuff, for example.

Since when were there any alps in Belgium?

[Aedilred]

Just as a note, my general food views are:
-The Chinese have the best savoury dishes, closely followed by the Vietnamese and the Japanese (probably the Koreans as well, but I've never had Korean food). Americanised Chinese food is nowhere near as nice.
-The French are amazing if you want something small, but a full meal ends up a bit lacking. Also number 2 for cheese.
-The Russians have the best pies. Yeah, was totally surprised by that one.
-English cuisine is not something I'd make to impress, barring a full roast, but has it's appeal in the day to day (mainly when I need to use up some tough meat). I stand my ground by our deserts despite the stodge, and we have the best cheese in the world.
-All others I have no real opinion on.

I agree with a lot of this. I do feel to an extent that Chinese food kind of "cheats" in such comparison due to the sheer size of the country and its variety. The same applies to an extent to Indian food (which is also excellent).

The other country shamefully missing from the above list - which if asked who produces the best food in the world, I would probably answer instinctively - is Italy.