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2018-11-29, 03:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
On the one hand, Thor seems emphatic that Odin is responsible for setting Durkon down his path and we know for certain that the High Priest of Odin told the High Priest of Thor about Durkon. On the other hand, not only does Odin not remember doing it, but he is sure that it is not in keeping with his character to have done it. Now, maybe Odins personality is transforming through worship, or maybe he really didnt send his high priest and some other god did.... Loki? Was Thor there when Odin set up the prophecy? Could there be more to this prophecy than we know, or is it really essentially done now that Durkon is heading back to prime material?
Last edited by rbetieh; 2018-11-29 at 03:51 AM.
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2018-11-29, 05:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
I think it's more likely that Odin just does things without being entirely aware of what they are, only that he needs to do them.
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2018-11-29, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
No. treedom of oak
Spoiler
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2018-11-29, 07:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
If we delve enough in the matter, there will probably be hatched a theory that says that the one responsible for Durkon's Doomtm was, in fact, Redcloak's niece, disguised as one of Miko's parents, following orders from Hilgya's clan, who are in league with the Snarl, because they are the worst of the worst.
Last edited by D.One; 2018-11-29 at 07:26 AM.
Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
Our battles don’t hit theheadlines or shake the earth
But they are few, can’t be everywhere, and we, many
So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
(Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)
"I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"
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2018-11-29, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-11-29, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
The one thing we know for absolute certain is that the prediction which caused Durkon to be kicked out into the snow came from the High Priest of Odin, and that the High Priest of Thor considered the prediction legit enough that he ordered the lifelong exile of one of his own priests. Overall, that suggests Odin was probably the source of it, because the HPoO would not have been so certain about it if it came from somewhere else.
I suppose the obvious question is--if not Odin, then who? Who benefits from the prophecy? I'd argue it's not Hel, because if she could have foretold Durkon turning into a vampire and becoming her High Priest, she would also have foreseen his defeat at the hands of the Order and would have done something to prevent it.
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2018-11-29, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
I think it is definitely within the realm of possibility. Perhaps Odin received a vision and Loki was there when Odin verbalized the vision. Odin, either decided not to or was unable to act on the vision. But Loki could. So the god of trickery hatched a plan that as a bonus, involved kicking a cleric of his brother to the curb (by the cleric's own head priest).
Last edited by xroads; 2018-11-29 at 09:54 AM.
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2018-11-29, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
MiTD is Miko’s mom.
Yeah, but spindles wind the string forward, not back. I think he’s basically saying “maybe it happened, but if it happened, it happened, and not even mighty Odin gets a do-over. So let’s move on and talk about something else now.”Last edited by Dion; 2018-11-29 at 10:12 AM.
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2018-11-29, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
Do we know for certain? No. But Occam's Razor says that he did. Lacking any other evidence, we should assume that it was Odin, even if he wasn't entirely aware of it. He may not have been the one who originally conceived of the idea, but he was probably at least involved.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2018-11-29, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
It's hardly a spoiler since the prophecy is now in the main comic, but eh, why not:
Spoiler: On the Origin of PCsOriginally Posted by High Priest Hurak
It's not for certain that Odin started the prophecy, but I'd put money on it.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2018-11-29, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
No, we don't know for certain. However, it seems like the most likely outcome, given that a)for it to be otherwise would require some complex, previously-unexplained mechanics and b)there has to be a reason for it to be someone else that matters to the story and makes sense with the character.
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2018-11-29, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
I don't think it would have to be all that complex. If we take the case of Loki being the orchestrator, all it would take would be for Loki to fool a mere mortal priest. Granted, the mortal was a high level cleric of Odin, but Loki is the god of trickery. And Odin isn't exactly on his game all the time.
Loki is already in the story, so there is no need to create a new agent. And the chaotic god of trickery can have any number of reasons to get involved. Especially with the fate of the world involved.
I'm not saying that this is the case. As Keltest points out, Occam's Razor favors Odin being solely responsible. But it's not too much of a stretch to imagine scenarios where perhaps Odin was only the catalyst.
I know in my head canon, Loki was involved. The idea that he was responsible for a cleric of Thor being exiled is just to deliciously evil.
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2018-11-29, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
Our battles don’t hit theheadlines or shake the earth
But they are few, can’t be everywhere, and we, many
So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
(Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)
"I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"
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2018-11-29, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
Here's the rope that theory hangs itself with, though; Loki is the god of trickery. He tricks people. He doesn't give prophesies. Odin does. This proposal has Loki trick someone into thinking he's Odin, and then giving a prophecy, which he can't really do, about some random cleric, which turns out to be absolutely and completely correct, and which he purportedly did for no discernible reason.
It's not just that this theory has a lot of moving parts, it's that the gears are spinning in opposing directions and grinding themselves into dust.Last edited by Peelee; 2018-11-29 at 02:51 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2018-11-29, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
Our battles don’t hit theheadlines or shake the earth
But they are few, can’t be everywhere, and we, many
So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
(Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)
"I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"
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2018-11-29, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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2018-11-29, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
Not that I think it is more likely that some other god did it, but...
What if Odin only answered the question: "who is most likely to convince the high priest of the dark one to help us?" They just need that guy to learn about the snarl (so the god of secrets wont get mad?) and then go to his gods plane.
How you get there might not be totally in stone, and another god thought killing off the Creed of Stone and Thors night shift was a bonus?
Still a little contrived, I guess, huh?
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2018-11-29, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2018-11-29, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
I don't think Loki was the source of the prophesy. I still think Odin was.
In my head canon, Odin had a vision and verbalized it. Maybe he was sitting on his throne and talking in his asleep. Loki just happen to be there and heard it.
I honestly don't see any gear grinding here. All of this could happen off screen and nothing would need to change. The actors are already present. And their roles remain unchanged. Odin, the lovable but senile god of prophesy. Loki, the trickster with a vested interest in manipulating how events unfold.Last edited by xroads; 2018-11-29 at 04:12 PM.
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2018-11-29, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
That still requires another god to have the ability to see prophecies. We know of only three - Odin, Rooster, and Tiamat. One from each pantheon. Having another god think killing off some people as a bonus requires another god to be able to soothsay, when there's no evidence of this. It'd be like saying, "what if Redcloak is The Dark One's son? It'd work if his mother had a night with The Dark One before Redcloak was born." While the second statement is true, it's a completely unsupported assertion whose sole existence is to support first statement.
...but then what's the functional difference between Loki and Odin delivering the prophecy? That's like saying I think Belkar isn't Belkar, but a different halfling who looks and acts just like Belkar. There's no real meaningful difference there.Last edited by Peelee; 2018-11-29 at 04:13 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2018-11-29, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-29, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-29, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
Last edited by xroads; 2018-11-29 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Made clarification.
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2018-11-29, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
Yes, adding cross-pantheon conspiracy into the mix makes me even less receptive, not more.
Tone being hard to convey over the internet and all, I want to preface this as I'm not trying to be hostile or jerky or anything. There's nothing at all wrong with wanting to think something like that if you like it. Go for it, dude. But advancing that theory in a conversation does absolutely nothing to add to the conversation. It'd be like people discussing Belkar's character growth, and then me going back to that, "well, it's not like it changes anything to the story, but I headcannon that Bob the halfling has masquerading as Belkar this whole time, and the real Belkar is still in somehobbithalfling hole sleeping after making himself a big feast. But Bob-as-Belkar is certainly going through character growth." It doesn't lend anything to the conversation, because there's no rhyme or reason to it. There's no explanation, there's no rationale for it other than "eh, I like it." Again, not trying to be mean, and I apologize if it's coming off that way, I'm just trying to explain.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2018-11-29, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-29, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-11-29, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
No worries man. I figured this was just good ole fashion theory spinning.
The OP asked a question about whether or not Odin was the sole agent in implementing the Durkon gambit. My answer is, maybe. But the pieces are in place to easily spell out another story.
Your example seems to be an apples & oranges argument. In the example you spell out, the pieces aren't already there:
- Bob doesn't yet exist in story. Loki does exist.
- Bob skills would have to be established. Loki's skills are established (god).
- Bob's role in the narrative would have to be explained Loki already has a fairly defined and flexible role (chaotic god of trickery, related to Odin).
Kind of like a game of Clue. It could of been Loki, with his trickery magic, in Odin's high priest's meditation room.
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2018-11-29, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2018-11-29, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
Well, for some reason, Rich decided to put into the story that Odin doesn't remember making this prophecy and thinks it's not like something he would do (sending Durkon away, that is, not making the prophecy) Maybe that's just a characterization thing, but it seems like that point is going to be important later. I dunno that it's because it wasn't Odin, or Odin did it because he was nuts or what. But it seems like it'll be a plot point of some significance later.
On the other hand, the High priestess in the moot made a point to tell Roy that Durkon's exile is lifted and that knowledge may be useful... and it doesn't seem to be anymore, so who knows?Last edited by AutomatedTeller; 2018-11-29 at 06:29 PM.
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2018-11-29, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?
Basically this.
A lot of the recent "Loki is the mastermind" theories revolve around "Loki exists so obviously he's involved in the important schemes" without really thinking about how his involvement would make sense or even be possible.
So, like, it's not impossible that Loki or someone else besides Odin made the prophecy. But given what we've been told it just seems more likely to me that the prophecy was just Odin on one of his better days, and he can't remember doing it right now because he's in the middle of a spell.
And in this case in particular, I don't see what it would really add to the story. If the prophecy is delivered for the exact same reason, what's the point in adding an extra step?Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-11-29 at 06:28 PM.