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    Default Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    On the one hand, Thor seems emphatic that Odin is responsible for setting Durkon down his path and we know for certain that the High Priest of Odin told the High Priest of Thor about Durkon. On the other hand, not only does Odin not remember doing it, but he is sure that it is not in keeping with his character to have done it. Now, maybe Odins personality is transforming through worship, or maybe he really didnt send his high priest and some other god did.... Loki? Was Thor there when Odin set up the prophecy? Could there be more to this prophecy than we know, or is it really essentially done now that Durkon is heading back to prime material?
    Last edited by rbetieh; 2018-11-29 at 03:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    I think it's more likely that Odin just does things without being entirely aware of what they are, only that he needs to do them.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    No. treedom of oak
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    If we delve enough in the matter, there will probably be hatched a theory that says that the one responsible for Durkon's Doomtm was, in fact, Redcloak's niece, disguised as one of Miko's parents, following orders from Hilgya's clan, who are in league with the Snarl, because they are the worst of the worst.
    Last edited by D.One; 2018-11-29 at 07:26 AM.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    If we delve enough in the matter, there will probably be hatched a theory that says that the one responsible for Durkon's Doomtm was, in fact, Redcloak's niece, disguised as one of Miko's parents, following orders from Hilgya's clan, who are in league with the Snarl, because they are the worst of the worst.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    The one thing we know for absolute certain is that the prediction which caused Durkon to be kicked out into the snow came from the High Priest of Odin, and that the High Priest of Thor considered the prediction legit enough that he ordered the lifelong exile of one of his own priests. Overall, that suggests Odin was probably the source of it, because the HPoO would not have been so certain about it if it came from somewhere else.

    I suppose the obvious question is--if not Odin, then who? Who benefits from the prophecy? I'd argue it's not Hel, because if she could have foretold Durkon turning into a vampire and becoming her High Priest, she would also have foreseen his defeat at the hands of the Order and would have done something to prevent it.

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    On the other hand, not only does Odin not remember doing it, but he is sure that it is not in keeping with his character to have done it. Now, maybe Odins personality is transforming through worship, or maybe he really didnt send his high priest and some other god did.... Loki?
    I think it is definitely within the realm of possibility. Perhaps Odin received a vision and Loki was there when Odin verbalized the vision. Odin, either decided not to or was unable to act on the vision. But Loki could. So the god of trickery hatched a plan that as a bonus, involved kicking a cleric of his brother to the curb (by the cleric's own head priest).
    Last edited by xroads; 2018-11-29 at 09:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Not enough MitD.
    MiTD is Miko’s mom.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    On the other hand, not only does Odin not remember doing it, but he is sure that it is not in keeping with his character to have done it.
    Yeah, but spindles wind the string forward, not back. I think he’s basically saying “maybe it happened, but if it happened, it happened, and not even mighty Odin gets a do-over. So let’s move on and talk about something else now.”
    Last edited by Dion; 2018-11-29 at 10:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Do we know for certain? No. But Occam's Razor says that he did. Lacking any other evidence, we should assume that it was Odin, even if he wasn't entirely aware of it. He may not have been the one who originally conceived of the idea, but he was probably at least involved.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    It's hardly a spoiler since the prophecy is now in the main comic, but eh, why not:
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    Quote Originally Posted by High Priest Hurak
    But Odin's priest was in here this mornin' wit a prophecy straight from tha top.

    It's not for certain that Odin started the prophecy, but I'd put money on it.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    No, we don't know for certain. However, it seems like the most likely outcome, given that a)for it to be otherwise would require some complex, previously-unexplained mechanics and b)there has to be a reason for it to be someone else that matters to the story and makes sense with the character.

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    No, we don't know for certain. However, it seems like the most likely outcome, given that a)for it to be otherwise would require some complex, previously-unexplained mechanics and b)there has to be a reason for it to be someone else that matters to the story and makes sense with the character.
    I don't think it would have to be all that complex. If we take the case of Loki being the orchestrator, all it would take would be for Loki to fool a mere mortal priest. Granted, the mortal was a high level cleric of Odin, but Loki is the god of trickery. And Odin isn't exactly on his game all the time.

    Loki is already in the story, so there is no need to create a new agent. And the chaotic god of trickery can have any number of reasons to get involved. Especially with the fate of the world involved.

    I'm not saying that this is the case. As Keltest points out, Occam's Razor favors Odin being solely responsible. But it's not too much of a stretch to imagine scenarios where perhaps Odin was only the catalyst.

    I know in my head canon, Loki was involved. The idea that he was responsible for a cleric of Thor being exiled is just to deliciously evil.

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    I don't think it would have to be all that complex. If we take the case of Loki being the orchestrator, all it would take would be for Loki to fool a mere mortal priest. Granted, the mortal was a high level cleric of Odin, but Loki is the god of trickery. And Odin isn't exactly on his game all the time.

    Loki is already in the story, so there is no need to create a new agent. And the chaotic god of trickery can have any number of reasons to get involved. Especially with the fate of the world involved.

    I'm not saying that this is the case. As Keltest points out, Occam's Razor favors Odin being solely responsible. But it's not too much of a stretch to imagine scenarios where perhaps Odin was only the catalyst.

    I know in my head canon, Loki was involved. The idea that he was responsible for a cleric of Thor being exiled is just to deliciously evil.
    As I've said before

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    The whole Prophecy by Odin + Bet orchestrated by Loki reminds me of Neil Gailman's book, where we see that much of the plot derive from a con being run by Loki & Odin
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    I don't think it would have to be all that complex. If we take the case of Loki being the orchestrator, all it would take would be for Loki to fool a mere mortal priest. Granted, the mortal was a high level cleric of Odin, but Loki is the god of trickery.
    Here's the rope that theory hangs itself with, though; Loki is the god of trickery. He tricks people. He doesn't give prophesies. Odin does. This proposal has Loki trick someone into thinking he's Odin, and then giving a prophecy, which he can't really do, about some random cleric, which turns out to be absolutely and completely correct, and which he purportedly did for no discernible reason.

    It's not just that this theory has a lot of moving parts, it's that the gears are spinning in opposing directions and grinding themselves into dust.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-11-29 at 02:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It's not just that this theory has a lot of moving parts, it's that the gears are spinning in opposite directions and grinding themselves into dust.
    Connected gears usually spin in opposite directions, there's nothing wrong with that...

    That said, the "grinding themselves into dust" part may be problematic...
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Connected gears usually spin in opposite directions, there's nothing wrong with that...
    True. Fortunately it's a two-letter fix.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Here's the rope that theory hangs itself with, though; Loki is the god of trickery. He tricks people. He doesn't give prophesies. Odin does. This proposal has Loki trick someone into thinking he's Odin, and then giving a prophecy, which he can't really do, about some random cleric, which turns out to be absolutely and completely correct, and which he purportedly did for no discernible reason.

    It's not just that this theory has a lot of moving parts, it's that the gears are spinning in opposing directions and grinding themselves into dust.
    Not that I think it is more likely that some other god did it, but...

    What if Odin only answered the question: "who is most likely to convince the high priest of the dark one to help us?" They just need that guy to learn about the snarl (so the god of secrets wont get mad?) and then go to his gods plane.

    How you get there might not be totally in stone, and another god thought killing off the Creed of Stone and Thors night shift was a bonus?

    Still a little contrived, I guess, huh?

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    No, we don't know for certain. However, it seems like the most likely outcome, given that a)for it to be otherwise would require some complex, previously-unexplained mechanics and b)there has to be a reason for it to be someone else that matters to the story and makes sense with the character.
    The High Priest of Odin concocting a false prophecy on his own, trying to get Durkon out of the way for his own reasons, seems the most likely alternative...which, you know, still looks ridiculously unlikely.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Here's the rope that theory hangs itself with, though; Loki is the god of trickery. He tricks people. He doesn't give prophesies. Odin does. This proposal has Loki trick someone into thinking he's Odin, and then giving a prophecy, which he can't really do, about some random cleric, which turns out to be absolutely and completely correct, and which he purportedly did for no discernible reason.

    It's not just that this theory has a lot of moving parts, it's that the gears are spinning in opposing directions and grinding themselves into dust.
    I don't think Loki was the source of the prophesy. I still think Odin was.

    In my head canon, Odin had a vision and verbalized it. Maybe he was sitting on his throne and talking in his asleep. Loki just happen to be there and heard it.

    I honestly don't see any gear grinding here. All of this could happen off screen and nothing would need to change. The actors are already present. And their roles remain unchanged. Odin, the lovable but senile god of prophesy. Loki, the trickster with a vested interest in manipulating how events unfold.
    Last edited by xroads; 2018-11-29 at 04:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    Not that I think it is more likely that some other god did it, but...

    What if Odin only answered the question: "who is most likely to convince the high priest of the dark one to help us?" They just need that guy to learn about the snarl (so the god of secrets wont get mad?) and then go to his gods plane.

    How you get there might not be totally in stone, and another god thought killing off the Creed of Stone and Thors night shift was a bonus?
    That still requires another god to have the ability to see prophecies. We know of only three - Odin, Rooster, and Tiamat. One from each pantheon. Having another god think killing off some people as a bonus requires another god to be able to soothsay, when there's no evidence of this. It'd be like saying, "what if Redcloak is The Dark One's son? It'd work if his mother had a night with The Dark One before Redcloak was born." While the second statement is true, it's a completely unsupported assertion whose sole existence is to support first statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    In my head canon, Odin had a vision and verbalized it. Maybe he was sitting on his throne and talking in his asleep. Loki just happen to be there and heard it.
    ...but then what's the functional difference between Loki and Odin delivering the prophecy? That's like saying I think Belkar isn't Belkar, but a different halfling who looks and acts just like Belkar. There's no real meaningful difference there.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-11-29 at 04:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That still requires another god to have the ability to see prophecies. We know of only three - Odin, Rooster, and Tiamat. One from each pantheon. Having another god think killing off some people as a bonus requires another god to be able to soothsay, when there's no evidence of this. It'd be like saying, "what if Redcloak is The Dark One's son? It'd work if his mother had a night with The Dark One before Redcloak was born." While the second statement is true, it's a completely unsupported assertion whose sole existence is to support first statement.



    ...but then what's the functional difference between Loki and Odin delivering the prophecy? That's like saying I think Belkar isn't Belkar, but a different halfling who looks and acts just like Belkar. There's no real meaningful difference there.
    Isn't Tiamat in Lokis chat group though?

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    Isn't Tiamat in Lokis chat group though?
    ...Possibly? We know the Dark One used to be.

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    ...but then what's the functional difference between Loki and Odin delivering the prophecy? That's like saying I think Belkar isn't Belkar, but a different halfling who looks and acts just like Belkar. There's no real meaningful difference there.
    Functional? Probably none. Just a different flavor.

    Like I said, I believe that the pieces are place such that the Odin and Loki narrative can easily be the case. But that doesn't mean it is the case. And it doesn't really change anything even if it is.
    Last edited by xroads; 2018-11-29 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Made clarification.

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbetieh View Post
    Isn't Tiamat in Lokis chat group though?
    Yes, adding cross-pantheon conspiracy into the mix makes me even less receptive, not more.
    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    Functional? Probably none. Just a different flavor.
    Tone being hard to convey over the internet and all, I want to preface this as I'm not trying to be hostile or jerky or anything. There's nothing at all wrong with wanting to think something like that if you like it. Go for it, dude. But advancing that theory in a conversation does absolutely nothing to add to the conversation. It'd be like people discussing Belkar's character growth, and then me going back to that, "well, it's not like it changes anything to the story, but I headcannon that Bob the halfling has masquerading as Belkar this whole time, and the real Belkar is still in some hobbithalfling hole sleeping after making himself a big feast. But Bob-as-Belkar is certainly going through character growth." It doesn't lend anything to the conversation, because there's no rhyme or reason to it. There's no explanation, there's no rationale for it other than "eh, I like it." Again, not trying to be mean, and I apologize if it's coming off that way, I'm just trying to explain.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    what if Redcloak is The Dark One's son?
    So you’re saying that RedCloak is MitD’s mom?

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    So you’re saying that RedCloak is MitD’s mom?
    That's exactly what I'm saying.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, adding cross-pantheon conspiracy into the mix makes me even less receptive, not more.

    Tone being hard to convey over the internet and all, I want to preface this as I'm not trying to be hostile or jerky or anything. There's nothing at all wrong with wanting to think something like that if you like it. Go for it, dude. But advancing that theory in a conversation does absolutely nothing to add to the conversation. It'd be like people discussing Belkar's character growth, and then me going back to that, "well, it's not like it changes anything to the story, but I headcannon that Bob the halfling has masquerading as Belkar this whole time, and the real Belkar is still in some hobbithalfling hole sleeping after making himself a big feast. But Bob-as-Belkar is certainly going through character growth." It doesn't lend anything to the conversation, because there's no rhyme or reason to it. There's no explanation, there's no rationale for it other than "eh, I like it." Again, not trying to be mean, and I apologize if it's coming off that way, I'm just trying to explain.
    No worries man. I figured this was just good ole fashion theory spinning.

    The OP asked a question about whether or not Odin was the sole agent in implementing the Durkon gambit. My answer is, maybe. But the pieces are in place to easily spell out another story.

    Your example seems to be an apples & oranges argument. In the example you spell out, the pieces aren't already there:
    1. Bob doesn't yet exist in story. Loki does exist.
    2. Bob skills would have to be established. Loki's skills are established (god).
    3. Bob's role in the narrative would have to be explained Loki already has a fairly defined and flexible role (chaotic god of trickery, related to Odin).

    Kind of like a game of Clue. It could of been Loki, with his trickery magic, in Odin's high priest's meditation room.

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    No worries man. I figured this was just good ole fashion theory spinning.
    It may well be. I've completely missed the point before, after all, I probably will again in the future.
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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Well, for some reason, Rich decided to put into the story that Odin doesn't remember making this prophecy and thinks it's not like something he would do (sending Durkon away, that is, not making the prophecy) Maybe that's just a characterization thing, but it seems like that point is going to be important later. I dunno that it's because it wasn't Odin, or Odin did it because he was nuts or what. But it seems like it'll be a plot point of some significance later.


    On the other hand, the High priestess in the moot made a point to tell Roy that Durkon's exile is lifted and that knowledge may be useful... and it doesn't seem to be anymore, so who knows?
    Last edited by AutomatedTeller; 2018-11-29 at 06:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Do we know for certain that Odin started the Dwarf Prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Here's the rope that theory hangs itself with, though; Loki is the god of trickery. He tricks people. He doesn't give prophesies. Odin does. This proposal has Loki trick someone into thinking he's Odin, and then giving a prophecy, which he can't really do, about some random cleric, which turns out to be absolutely and completely correct, and which he purportedly did for no discernible reason.

    It's not just that this theory has a lot of moving parts, it's that the gears are spinning in opposing directions and grinding themselves into dust.
    Basically this.

    A lot of the recent "Loki is the mastermind" theories revolve around "Loki exists so obviously he's involved in the important schemes" without really thinking about how his involvement would make sense or even be possible.

    So, like, it's not impossible that Loki or someone else besides Odin made the prophecy. But given what we've been told it just seems more likely to me that the prophecy was just Odin on one of his better days, and he can't remember doing it right now because he's in the middle of a spell.

    And in this case in particular, I don't see what it would really add to the story. If the prophecy is delivered for the exact same reason, what's the point in adding an extra step?
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2018-11-29 at 06:28 PM.

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