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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    Bah! Two measly spell slots does not a full caster make.
    2 slots for levels 2-10. Per short rest.

    Of which you should be getting 2-3 per long rest (meaning 6-8 slots per long rest - enough for 1 max level slot per encounter, plus at will cantrips and invocations).

    Before you cry 'My DM doesnt run a game with 2-3 short rests per long rest as recommended by the DMG', take that up with your DM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    I feel like warlock is a flawed class overall.
    Their spell list is really limited.
    But that's okay they have invocations, right?
    But then you realize that between Eldritch Blast and Blade Pact, there's too many invocation taxes taking up slots to really customize your character
    That's fine, who cares about optimization
    Then at this stage you realize the purpose of the invocation taxes; to stop you from realizing that warlock invocations simply don't have that many interesting options.
    Fun things like beast speech and eyes of the rune keeper are supposed to compete with...normal spells that could have been on the spell list anyways. Or other "basically also a tax" like armor of shadows. Or worse, Beguiling Influence. Not even so much as a giving expertise on that one...
    Too many invocations feel like WotC took away spellcasting abilities just so you can be grateful when they give them back. They went the easy and lazy route instead of making invocations that couldn't be replicated with spells.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Yeah. There are a lot of these. I'm fond of the various information-gathering invocations, too (Detect Magic at will, for example, will let you spot magic traps, hidden treasure, illusory walls, invisible assassins sneaking into the room, and even Subtle Spell sorcerers trying to pull shenanigans without anyone noticing).

    Another good one:
    Gift of the Ever Living Ones + Celestial Warlock + Healing spells: Suddenly your Healing Light heals you for 30 hp as a bonus action which doesn't count as a spell (so you can totally still use one that turn with your Action). And all other healing is maximized, too. Even a plain old Cure Wounds slot for you would be 45 hit points, which means you can match the self-healing of the Heal spell by a bonus action + action before anyone can even cast Heal.

    This is... a lot of hit points when you can do this. For example, at level 9 you have an average of about 60 hit points.

    This also synergizes with any other healer in the party, since their healing on you is maximized too. For example, your party healer (say, a Life Cleric 1 / Bard X) could have Aura of Vitality handing you 17 hit points every round.
    Yeah celestial warlocks are nasty! Maximized cure light wounds is great. Its always cast at max level, and you can just take a short rest to regain it. Normally I'm against healing as a combat option, but these options actually can outheal damage.

    For me, its all about the master of disguise. Invisibile scouts, and unlimited disguises while handing out hexes and curses right under their noses. Really puts rogues to shame. I already have my character ready but I'm worried the DM will think its too OP.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by detro View Post
    I feel like warlock is a flawed class overall.
    Their spell list is really limited.
    See:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    They're solid. They are even solid casters. The thing is they are what they are and what they are not is full casters in the vein of clerics, wizards, etc. They are their own thing and you have to play them expecting them to be the kind of caster they are and not the kind of caster a wizard is.
    If you want to play a Wizard then play a Wizard.

    The same thing happens to the Sorcerer.

    If you want to play a caster who has a large breadth of spells to choose from, then play a Wizard.

    I like having more powerful spells and I'm okay with the trade off being that I have fewer to choose from.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by ad_hoc View Post
    See:



    If you want to play a Wizard then play a Wizard.

    The same thing happens to the Sorcerer.

    If you want to play a caster who has a large breadth of spells to choose from, then play a Wizard.

    I like having more powerful spells and I'm okay with the trade off being that I have fewer to choose from.
    Yes, that was my point.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    Yes, that was my point.
    Which is why I quoted you.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    what does this mean?
    It means they're full casters in the same general vein as Wizards & Sorcerers,generally squisheir with offensively oriented spells overall. As opposed to the defensive/buff oriented full casters: Cleric, Bard & Druid.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    They can be anything

    Scout
    Blaster
    Buffer
    Tank
    Striker
    Infiltrator
    Face
    And some can heal

    And they are fascinating, and hex blade can do it with 1 stat and a decent con.

    Well made and written.

    And they are very emo and my boring fighter hates them, like young Anakin hated sand people

    Great class, they're not my style, but can do everything on the list... and are cool doing it.

    My fighters hate them

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    IMO Warlock is the best to mix, but no good for single.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Devil

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    I played a warlock in my last campaign (we went up to level 13) and I had a(n eldritch) blast.

    You always have something relevant to do, you are never out of resources, and you can make amazing use of thoses lvl 2-3 spells.

    Need to sneak => the whole party is invisible
    Need to flee => we fly
    Need to break someone out of jail, just teleport trough the wall with ghostsight invocation.

    As for a roleplay poitn of view, THIS IS AMAZING, the is so much you can do.
    Work with your DM to shape your patron.
    Need a plot hook : well the warlock's patron want something.
    Need assistance, find a way to contact your patron.

    Warlock is amazing.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    2 slots for levels 2-10. Per short rest.

    Of which you should be getting 2-3 per long rest (meaning 6-8 slots per long rest - enough for 1 max level slot per encounter, plus at will cantrips and invocations).

    Before you cry 'My DM doesnt run a game with 2-3 short rests per long rest as recommended by the DMG', take that up with your DM.
    Let me guess. you read that post, and were so incensed that you immediately commented without reading any of the intervening points in which i already addressed your point.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by ad_hoc View Post
    They are probably the most misunderstood class. They also have a lot of options. Those 2 factors combined results in people having far different experiences with them. Group think is also a strong phenomenon and pushes them in one direction or another in different groups.

    This board, for example, is all about the Eldritch Blast.

    You can focus on Hex and use Invocations to fuel Eldritch Blast but there are other ways to play. You can also use your average of 1 high level slot per encounter to do a lot of damage/control up front in an encounter then just use regular cantrips for the next couple rounds as the encounter is finished up. With Invocations free you can use those to round out your utility.

    Hexblade is by far the most powerful Patron. It should never have made it to print.
    If only pact of the blade had offered medium armor proficiency, I think Hexblade would never have been necessary. But that's water under the bridge.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    If only pact of the blade had offered medium armor proficiency, I think Hexblade would never have been necessary. But that's water under the bridge.
    Questionably OP. The Hexblade is definitely OP, but that's Medium armor as a small fraction of a level's class features. If we use Feat logic, 4 weapons + Medium/Shield prof should be about 1 level's worth of class feature, so it might have been balanced to have Pact of the Blade provide it.

    OTOH complaints about Bladelocks generally boil down to wanting to have their cake and eat it too. And GISHs in general for that matter. They're perfectly functional as a "backup melee attacks" feature guy. They're just not designed, quite rightly, to be primary melee guys.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Questionably OP. The Hexblade is definitely OP, but that's Medium armor as a small fraction of a level's class features. If we use Feat logic, 4 weapons + Medium/Shield prof should be about 1 level's worth of class feature, so it might have been balanced to have Pact of the Blade provide it.

    OTOH complaints about Bladelocks generally boil down to wanting to have their cake and eat it too. And GISHs in general for that matter. They're perfectly functional as a "backup melee attacks" feature guy. They're just not designed, quite rightly, to be primary melee guys.
    Yeah, this.

    Like the Beastmaster, people expect too much out of the Blade Pact. The other pacts don't get a whole lot. 3 cantrips or an upgraded familiar isn't the height of power.

    A huge factor of why people think Blade Pact is under powered on here is that the playstyle of most people on this board seems to be to avoid engaging ranged characters in melee. If enemies never walk up to the ranged characters in the party then of course they don't need a melee back up (or armour for that matter).

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    So a martial warlock that isnt a hexblade isnt worth it? Im looking for a roguish angle on a warlock without dipping.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Pact of the blade fey lock isn’t awful. It plays perfectly decently and is a good warlock option (i.e. as long as you are fine with the short rest, low spell count etc. playstyle, you won’t feel like you aren’t getting what you wanted out of the class). I’d rate it a B+.

    Thing is, the hexblade is A++, so if you are optimising the feylock is the ‘worse’ choice.

    So it’s a question which you’ll find more fun. If you have a character in mind and hexblade doesn’t fit, you aren’t hurting yourself by going with the more thematic option. If you think you want raw power, hexblade will always taunt you with its existence.
    Have fun, stay sane, enjoy the madness.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by SpanielBear View Post
    Pact of the blade fey lock isn’t awful. It plays perfectly decently and is a good warlock option (i.e. as long as you are fine with the short rest, low spell count etc. playstyle, you won’t feel like you aren’t getting what you wanted out of the class). I’d rate it a B+.

    Thing is, the hexblade is A++, so if you are optimising the feylock is the ‘worse’ choice.

    So it’s a question which you’ll find more fun. If you have a character in mind and hexblade doesn’t fit, you aren’t hurting yourself by going with the more thematic option. If you think you want raw power, hexblade will always taunt you with its existence.
    Fiend was the patron i was targeting, but ill look at Archfey Out of normal combat i was picturing a "stab them in their sleep" or "look them in the face and cut their throats" type. He is all fury and vengeance for a few people. =)
    Last edited by KyleG; 2018-12-28 at 04:04 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    So a martial warlock that isnt a hexblade isnt worth it? Im looking for a roguish angle on a warlock without dipping.
    Shadow Blade is pretty cool.
    If you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    This is discussion is really quite informative. Been poking around at a warlock idea.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    Fiend was the patron i was targeting, but ill look at Archfey Out of normal combat i was picturing a "stab them in their sleep" or "look them in the face and cut their throats" type. He is all fury and vengeance for a few people. =)
    Fiend’s good too. Temporary hit points are good, and who doesn’t love a trip through the nine hells? You miss out on some of the feylocks mobility, but mask of many faces is really good no matter which patron you choose.
    Have fun, stay sane, enjoy the madness.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    So a martial warlock that isnt a hexblade isnt worth it? Im looking for a roguish angle on a warlock without dipping.
    Martial 'Locks That aren't hexblades existed for 3 years before Xany came out, so something must have been going on. You just have to use more than one stat. Build like a Paladin or Ranger - casting stat secondary.

    Roguish? You don't want the medium armor. Bladelock makes you proficient in your pact blade, probably a rapier. Now, some of the Hexblade features fit better to the roguish reliance on luck, but that curtails the fun of a fey-aligned casting sword guy. Be Kvothe.

    Skip EB, get advanced weapon to make bows, and throw in Eldritch Smite for a sneak attack lite. Hex is probably going to be a necessary, but don't sweat dropping it for a little invisibility.

    Oh, and mask of many faces + friends is good for all sorts of hijinks.
    Why yes, Warlock is my solution for everything.

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    Active Abilities are great because you - the player - are demonstrating your Dwarvenness or Elfishness. You're not passively a dwarf, you're actively dwarfing your way through obstacles.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    So can some cha be sacrificed if one goes for an archfey bladelock? im sitting on 16 cha (incl.+2 racial) but im light on con at 12. dex is at 15 (incl. +1 racial). Cha to 14 woulg give me 3 more pts to spend which i could give to con getting that to 14.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    It almost feels like the designers started to go in a unique direction with Warlocks (invocations, pact features etc.) but chickened out and decided to make them just an unusual caster class. I think Warlocks should’ve been based around invocations, with maybe twice as many as they have now, and pact features, with no actual spell slots. And make Eldritch Blast a class feature, that gets better with Warlock levels only. That would’ve allowed people to mix and match their Warlock’s abilities to create some unique characters. I would’ve liked to have seen Rangers built along the same lines, rather than being half-casters.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    So can some cha be sacrificed if one goes for an archfey bladelock? im sitting on 16 cha (incl.+2 racial) but im light on con at 12. dex is at 15 (incl. +1 racial). Cha to 14 woulg give me 3 more pts to spend which i could give to con getting that to 14.
    For an Archfey Bladelock if the race is Half Elf I'd go:

    STR: 8
    DEX: 15 (9) +1 race = 16
    CON: 14 (7) +1 race = 15 (Resilient Constitution later for 16)
    INT: 10 (2)
    WIS: 10 (2)
    CHA: 14 (7) +2 race = 16

    Mostly you'll need a good background to fill in the roguish skills like stealth, sleight of hand etc. I'd probably go Urchin. Gives you those two plus Disguise Kit and Thieves Tools proficiencies. Rogue away ;)

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by Hail Tempus View Post
    It almost feels like the designers started to go in a unique direction with Warlocks (invocations, pact features etc.) but chickened out and decided to make them just an unusual caster class. I think Warlocks should’ve been based around invocations, with maybe twice as many as they have now, and pact features, with no actual spell slots. And make Eldritch Blast a class feature, that gets better with Warlock levels only. That would’ve allowed people to mix and match their Warlock’s abilities to create some unique characters. I would’ve liked to have seen Rangers built along the same lines, rather than being half-casters.
    I think a hard stop on allowing pact magic slots to work like regular spellcasting slots along with Eldritch Blast being a class feature rather than a cantrip would put an end to the MC Warlock abuse.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    The Hexblade is definitely OP
    I'm not super sold on this to be honest. Yes they get a whole lot at level 1 and warlock is one of the potentially more attractive dips anyway but...I've seen a hexblade in play once (as a multiclass) and they were honestly wholly unremarkable. Seemed to be well within the normal power curve expectations.

    I've never thought they were that OP as a single class. I will concede they're probably the most powerful patron but even then I don't think its by as much as people like to claim.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Here's a single class warlock build folks seem to like. Very much a jack of all trades sort.
    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnirbear
    The party is Sorcerer, Paladin, Fighter, Warlock. As warlock, you can:
    * be a primary healer via celestial patron
    * be a melee damage via hexblade
    * be a ritual caster via Tome
    * be a diplomat, spy, impersonator, or thief
    * serve as secondary or primary controller (eldritch blast invocations and utility spells)
    * be the magic detector, or other weird things a warlock does best
    * be the best archer ever

    And most of those roles aren't exclusive.
    Just to emphasize your point further...

    I see your most, and raise you all!

    Celestial Generalist

    VHuman Celestial Tomelock 12
    20 Cha / 16 Dex / 16 Con
    Moderately Armored (+1 Dex) / +4 Cha (ASIs) / War Caster

    Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade, Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Shillelagh, Shape Water, Guidance, Light, Sacred Flame (Yes, they know 9 Cantrips; 4 base, 2 Celestial, 3 Tome).

    Spells: Cure Wounds, Greater Restoration, Revivify, Hellish Rebuke, Synaptic Static, Thunder Step, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Armor of Agathys, Hold Monster, Misty Step, Mass Suggestion

    Invocations: Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Book of Ancient Secrets, Eldritch Sight, Mask of Many Faces, Maddening Hex



    Let's go down the checklist!

    HEALER? You've got Healing Light (which is like 13 Healing Words a day, or a lesser number of bonus action burst heals), the various status-removal spells, and Revivify. That's pretty much all the important bases. You also can take advantage of your short-rest recharge healing to make the party's breaks more efficient.

    DIPLOMAT/SPY/IMPERSONATOR? You have 20 Charisma, the proper proficiencies, Guidance, and Disguise Self at-will (which doesn't even use your Concentration, so you're totally using it in dungeon situations too to surprise or confuse people). Oh, and Mass Suggestion.

    THIEF? You can teleport, impersonate easily, have 16 Dex + proficiency in the proper skills, and are the magic detector (I find this comes up a lot when doing second story work). There are also some fun thievery tricks you can do with Shape Water and Mage Hand.

    MAGIC DETECTOR? Yep, you've got Eldritch Sight.

    RITUAL CASTER? Yep, you've got access to every class's rituals from Book of Ancient Secrets.

    ARCHER? You've got a 24-hour Hex and an Eldritch Blast that does 3d10+3d6+15, plus a 30 foot knockback (with no size limit, unlike most knockbacks), and Maddening Hex for a guaranteed-hit 5 damage AoE on top of that. You can just dish out that 47 damage all day. And have fun playing pinball (knock enemy into another enemy, then use the Maddening Hex AoE).

    MELEE? You have the AC of a dex fighter, a bonus action heal better than Second Wind, Armor of Agathys, Shillelagh, and Green-Flame Blade that gets buffed by Radiant Soul and your 24-hour Hex. Oh, and War Caster, so if they try to move past you, they get a Booming Blade OA for 6d8+5 (or perhaps something spending an actual spell slot). You also get 16 temp hp every short rest from Celestial Resilience (and your teammates get some too). And if somehow they get through all of that and you need to get out of dodge, you can use Thunder Step to damage them, get out, and rescue a teammate while you're at it!

    Someone attacking you in melee could take 25 damage per melee hit from AoA, then take 6d10+5 (38) from Hellish Rebuke, then get whacked by Green-Flame Blade for 3d8+1d6+10 (27) and another 3d8+5 (18.5) to the person standing next to them. Oh, and you have a familiar, so you can make that attack with Advantage.

    CONTROLLER? You've got Hold Monster, Synaptic Static, Hypnotic Pattern, Mass Suggestion, and 30 foot knockback on your Eldritch Blast. Oh, and moving past you in melee provokes nasty War Caster OAs.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Here's a single class warlock build folks seem to like. Very much a jack of all trades sort.
    It is indeed. I like a bunch of your builds to be honest. The Wood Elf Samurai generalist, the Vengeance Paladin, this one, etc...

    I only wish you'd put them all together somewhere I could find them easily lol ;)

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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Quote Originally Posted by Telesphoros View Post
    For an Archfey Bladelock if the race is Half Elf I'd go:

    STR: 8
    DEX: 15 (9) +1 race = 16
    CON: 14 (7) +1 race = 15 (Resilient Constitution later for 16)
    INT: 10 (2)
    WIS: 10 (2)
    CHA: 14 (7) +2 race = 16

    Mostly you'll need a good background to fill in the roguish skills like stealth, sleight of hand etc. I'd probably go Urchin. Gives you those two plus Disguise Kit and Thieves Tools proficiencies. Rogue away ;)
    Problem is that I want to keep 14 in intelligence despite it not being optimal as it plays to this character. Which means I think I will have to sacrifice either con or dex or a smaller value of both.
    So im thinking a bladelock/hexblade maybe not how I need to play this character. Maybe I need to play him with the whole mask of many faces and then surprise or hide in the shadows of my targets room and then kill them quickly with magic? (not thinking past level 10 at this stage). Proper combat is almost a secondary part of this build.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Warlock the single class

    Warlocks are an interesting class that is worth playing. I would agree that Hexblade armor should have been moved to Blade Pact.

    My criticism of the Warlock class would be that people often think it's going to be something it isnt. Bladepact made a poor Gish without Hexblade without multiclassing. People could Gish before Hexblade with a dip in another class or with enormous investment of feats for armor and invocations but felt bad because they could do almost as much damage or more with Eldritch Blast, so the investment felt wrong.

    Next criticism would be that Warlocks are front loaded and tend to be too powerful as a dip. Hexblade made this worse. I wonder if this was done for fluff reasons, Patrons attracting characters with up front power but diminishing the investment over time...

    Conversely, the higher levels (levell 12+) arent balanced well. As the Mystic Arcanum spell list is very limited, especially considering the Warlock gets one spell of each higher level known. I seriously wonder if the Mystic Arcanums would be broken if Warlock spells 6-9 could be chosen off any list. Because of this I often like playing Warlock 11/X 9 because I get three 5th level slots per short rest and then half another class. The remaining 9 levels of Warlock get much less interesting and dont seem to balance out against other full casters. More high level invocations could help thos out.

    I am glad XGtE printed more invocations. As they print more, Warlocks will flesh out better. These tend to balance out the lack of lower level spell slots. Because of there at will always on characteristics these do heavy lifting. They are good to really give style to characters.

    As a psuedo full caster. It's a neat package. It's not wholly a full caster it is different but that isnt a bad thing. And it's pretty close to a full caster and magic oriented. Warlocks are not broken. They are balanced and as someone wrote, even the Hexblade Patron isnt over powered, even if the dip is overpowered.

    To some up my critique, just know what a Warlock is and isnt before getting in and the class is too front loaded and a little under powered level 12 plus.

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