Ultimate Spy/Confidence Trickster

[ElfenSafety]

Hello all, I'm new to DnD and was hoping for some expert advice. After reviewing all the races I thought that the Changeling had the most potential with regards to rp so decided to try and make a sort of covert operative, specialising in gathering info/infiltration.

Thing is beyond going for a rogue as a starting class (obviously) I'm unsure as to how to progress and which abilities would make playing this character easiest. I thought the Charlatan background would be beneficial, perhaps going for either Umbral or Devils Sight to better blend if I'm impersonating an Elf (I plan to hide my changeling nature from the rest of the party as in general they're seen in a less than favourable light).

Having banged my head against this problem for a while it only made sense to ask more experienced players for their input.

The goal: To be the spyingist spy that ever spied. I thought a character able to collect information consistently would both be a valuable asset to the party and be amazingly fun to play/develop.

Literally nothing is off the table (Apart from the Lucky feat as apparently that's "Game-Changingly Broken"). Bonus points if you can explain why you'd choose each ability and the order you'd recommend they be taken in.

Thank you

PS: I watched a number of videos of DnD playthroughs on their YouTube channel and on one Anna Prosser was playing a Rogue (Playthroughs was called "Trapped in the Birdcage) who had an item called the "Omni Dress" which she could make change its appearance at will. It struck me as a useful item for this build but I've been unable to find anything about it via Google Dx.

[Man_Over_Game]

I mean, the best spy/RP build is probably the Bard of Whispers. Being able to hex people into doing your bidding without their consent or their knowledge of you doing it is pretty damn strong. In addition, you know more spells than anyone else, are a full caster, and your lack of combat spells is not a problem with your massive attack burst damage feature at level 3. You're a Ritual Caster, too, so feel free to cast Animal Messenger to send out secrets to whoever. You have spells like Comprehend Languages, Illusory Script, Knock and Sleep so you can get anywhere, break into anything, read or understand everything, and leave messages that only specific people can see.

If you are considering some levels into Warlock, go no more than 2 levels. It can help with your sustainability.

Choose Great Old One for your patron for RP benefits and to primarily be a caster.

Choose Hexblade if you want to be more of an attacker, and to not be dependent upon Dexterity for your attacks.

[dragoeniex]

If you cross into a casting class for other items, sense emotions could be a fun lv 1 spell to give yourself a quick read on rooms. Getting a very high insight means you may not feel the need so much, but depending on DM (ask ahead), even that combo could give you more. A spyingest spy scouts out vulnerable targets and hostile obstacles, right?

Others will be along shortly to toss some killer mechanics your way, I'll bet. For my last toss-in, about the transforming clothes:

Glamoured Studded Leather would do you quite nicely. This is a 12 AC base but counts as 13 as soon as you put it on. Then you can change its appearance with illusion magic unlimited times with only a password. Fits your rogue start and shifting appearances quite nicely!

Got this on my political spy/sneak character a handful of levels back, and the DM decided it would be fine to say the armor was actually transforming into those guideline-fitting outfits instead of just being illusory. That's a homebrew tweak, but it does feel awesome if your DM supports that kind of thing. (Be courteous and don't cheese constantly if so. Good rule for most things on a spy character, honestly. :P)

For something less fabulous but more common, Xanathar's recently came out with a Cloak of Many Fashions that changes its appearance to that of other types/styles of cloak. You can't do full outfits with this one, but still a great way to give guards and rivals the slip.

[ElfenSafety]

Thank you for the prompt replies, it's definitely given me some things to think about.

@Man_Over_Game: Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely take it under advisement [= The college of Whispers idea is certainly viable, and I don't even mind sacrificing melee ability so long as I can support from the rear. I already figured that this build will probably end up being a bit below par in terms of damage dealt per round, but hope it makes up for it in social situations/information gathered. As for Comprehend Languages, doesn't that mean I can only understand them not read/write them? If so, would it be worth taking the linguist feat? <-(I thought perhaps I could swing advantage by perhaps combining it with Actor).

@Dragoeniex Would sense emotions be something that could be learned via magical secrets, or is it purely a class thing?

Glamoured Studded Leather Vs Cloak of Many Fashions: Considering them both, while I'd prefer the Leathers for obvious reasons I think it would be unlikely for me to get that at a low-ish level, where I have a chance of perhaps earning enough to commission the Cloak. Either way I'm sure by the end of the campaign I'll probably try to have both if only for the rp possibilities.
(Side note: I wouldn't cheese something like that constantly, unless it was targeting another party member for comedic/slapstick reasons xD)

[dragoeniex]

Thank you for the prompt replies, it's definitely given me some things to think about.

@Man_Over_Game: Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely take it under advisement [= The college of Whispers idea is certainly viable, and I don't even mind sacrificing melee ability so long as I can support from the rear. I already figured that this build will probably end up being a bit below par in terms of damage dealt per round, but hope it makes up for it in social situations/information gathered. As for Comprehend Languages, doesn't that mean I can only understand them not read/write them? If so, would it be worth taking the linguist feat? <-(I thought perhaps I could swing advantage by perhaps combining it with Actor).

@Dragoeniex Would sense emotions be something that could be learned via magical secrets, or is it purely a class thing?

Glamoured Studded Leather Vs Cloak of Many Fashions: Considering them both, while I'd prefer the Leathers for obvious reasons I think it would be unlikely for me to get that at a low-ish level, where I have a chance of perhaps earning enough to commission the Cloak. Either way I'm sure by the end of the campaign I'll probably try to have both if only for the rp possibilities.
(Side note: I wouldn't cheese something like that constantly, unless it was targeting another party member for comedic/slapstick reasons xD)

Speaking of Man_Over_Game's comment, my political spy guy is a Whispers bard, haha. I second the opinion that it's great for this kind of thing. Less an emphasis on breaking in (though you can still take the criminal/spy background and get thieve's tools proficiency easy), and more finding ways to just walk in and belong where you want to be. Message and Minor Illusion are the perfect early cantrip picks for shenanigans, by the by. I get a lot more mileage out of making quick, distracting sounds (dog barking, door slamming, enemy corpse still "breathing" to attract help...) than visuals.

Words of terror is a strong ability when you pull it off. I'd advise looking for fun ways to make people afraid of someone/something other than you. Like making one of the two guys who will be on guard tonight terrified of the other, etc.

Sense Emotions is one I never took, actually, but magical empath feels fitting. It's on the lv 1 bard list (and warlock and wizard) if your DM is okay with using UA spells. Puppet is also nice, though only when you don't care about the target realizing they're being jerked around.

There are a ton of fun spells a spy can use. Illusions, controls, etc. You could run Suggestion pretty effectively too- though I like avoiding mind control all-together and trying to convince people to do things voluntarily. Also, make sure to pick Dimension Door up when you get to mid-levels if you go with any applicable caster! An emergency escape out of almost any building is a great thing to keep in your back pocket for if you blow cover.

Here's a link to a good bard spell list, if you're curious. Same site has full coverage for the others if you're wanting to browse those too.

https://dnd5e.fandom.com/wiki/Bard_Spells

Haha, best of luck with the teammates! As long as you don't solo side mission for long stretches all the time, this has potential to be a really fun character/dynamic. Might be cool to see if they want to let you rope them in after you're all acquainted, too. :) What's a spy without his network?



Edit: Also, with you as a changeling, Friends becomes a way less suicidal cantrip since you can wear a face you don't care about or someone you don't like for a moment. I prefer Message and Minor Illusion still, but it comes down to preferences and play styles. Prestidigitation is likewise good for magicking blood and odd smells away if you plan on an assassin slant.

[ElfenSafety]

Lol I found the DnD5e already and have been examining various spell lists to try and decide which would work best if I go College of Whispers.

About minor illusion, I was already considering picking that up so I could distract guards to slip by for example (I was thinking something like cast an illusion of a 50gp gemstone rolling past them and sparkling in the light) or (assuming others in the party end up helping) give visual signals for basic things like "it's clear" and "It's a traaaap" xD

Dimension door was another one that caught my interest, but I was thinking more in terms of obstacles that require str, Rivers, cliff faces etc. As I'm expecting to have a -1 to str it'd be easier to bypass such things completely. Probably should have put my bad guy hat on and thought "hmm... Es-ca-pe"

Edit: I was going to pick up prestidigitation already as I have an idea about making this character mind shatteringly vain about their appearance/clothing. Debating mending too.

Edit2: Just came across the spell Awaken... This may be slightly off topic (and not spy-like at all) but if I'm reading this correctly I can awaken a giant ivy plant and have my very own Ivy Golem? Because that sounds pretty amazing lol. To use it for spying it sounds like it would be more practical to awaken something like an ant/spider/small bird and just have it report back/return to me when it sees me waiting at X location.(dependant on the creatures speed)

[dragoeniex]

I will say that you could go with other bard subclasses and do just fine, if you like any of the other subset abilities. The meat of the stuff I've been using is all core bard. It's just that Whispers' ability to spike a weapon attack and throw in some extra shady powers is a tasty pairing.

Now you're thinking with portals! Er... illusions. Careful about Minor Image, though; it's a stationary image for the visuals. So no rolling/bouncing/glinting. Still useful, but lv 1 spell Silent Image is your first movable illusion opportunity.

The sound option is more flexible, though. You may not need or want bigger illusions.

Funny story. I beat the odds when rolling stats aaand got a 3 which ended up plugged in strength. The character's disability made for some funny moments. Like unlocking a door with a flick of his wrist during a party retreat-- then ineffectually beating himself against it anyway because it was slightly stuck in the doorframe and may as well have stayed locked. Early levels are fun. :P

Still, I'd recommend using Dimension Door for urgent escapes or strategic battlefield positioning/hiding for yourself and friends more than obstacles. Nothing wrong with party pals gently pushing you away while they deal with said obstacles.

Another benefit of going bard? If you're a performer with reliable skills, sometimes you can just use that as your excuse to get in places. "I'm the night's entertainment" and all. Not going to be your only tactic, of course, but it's not like that one is easy to discredit. You just need to watch for places it fits.

Heh. I like the vanity aspect on the shapeshifter. Is that less super model vanity and more artistic vanity? "I spent ages designing this face, and now you've gone and cut it up. Rude."

[dragoeniex]

Edit2: Just came across the spell Awaken... This may be slightly off topic (and not spy-like at all) but if I'm reading this correctly I can awaken a giant ivy plant and have my very own Ivy Golem? Because that sounds pretty amazing lol. To use it for spying it sounds like it would be more practical to awaken something like an ant/spider/small bird and just have it report back/return to me when it sees me waiting at X location.(dependant on the creatures speed)

Just saw this part. You could! Keep in mind being "charmed by you" doesn't mean it must do everything you say. You'd need to treat it relatively well if wanting to use it long term, and how strong/useful your animated tree is will likely be DM-dependent. It sounds like a fun option, though. Animate a decorative table flower and have it listen in on shady tavern conversations for you.

If you've got a feat to spare, you could alternatively look at going Magic Initiate - wizard at lv 4 or 8 and pick up Find Familiar. One of the familiar options is actually a spider, and if you're within 100 ft of the thing, you can use your action to see and hear through its senses instead of yours. Good for discreet listening. Stick to ceilings, though, in case it fails its stealth check and people start getting swatty.

[ElfenSafety]

When you said "thinking with portals" I totally didn't hear it in my head as a replay of the Portal fan song "Wish I Had A Portal Gun"... You can't prove nuffin'.

Shame about the illusion not working as I thought, it's what I get for skimming a wide variety of spell descriptions at like 6am I guess xD.

Edit: I even considered the fact that too big of a jewel might make them suspicious rather than catch their attention, it's why I settled on the 50gp one. I thought a standard guard would find that to be a significant amount and it could just roll into like dense grass or something which would occupy them for a while. Following the principles of: If the baits too big, the fish won't bite.

As for the rolling a 3 thing, I have many questions, the main one being: Have you considered buying a lottery ticket irl? XD. We won't be rolling, going for standard array/point buy with a min/max of 8/15. To be honest I didn't get everything the DM was saying but the jist of it seemed (to me at least) to ensure that we were all on equal-ish footing. And I dig that, rather than having one person who can do everything it encourages our characters to work together/form bonds which will help the narrative develop [= And hopefully allow shenanigans.

As for the Ivy Golem, it's just because I'm rather fond of nature Irl and rather like the idea of being carried around by a giant mass of leaves and vines. And as a character that can change its appearance on the fly, it occured to me that a being made of Ivy would have similar abilities (sort of). I wasn't thinking of it in terms for combat, so the stars aren't an issue, more a sentient being which can understand my character at its most fundamental level, as it'd be able to change its own shape albeit to a lesser extent. I thought that might be an interesting confidence building angle that could eventually lead to them being more open about who they are (Expressing their emotions when around trusted people by changes in appearance, mostly subtle but more blatant the stronger the emotion is they're conveying).

Of course that's just an idea at this stage.

Edit: The noble background also seems like it would be very beneficial or the courtier (If I'm remembering the name correctly). Both would grant access to areas normally reserved which would probably open up more options for infiltration/intel gathering. It's like Sophie's Choice ;-;

[dragoeniex]

I mean, the total 3 was hot on the heels of an 18, so maybe I should? :P The other stats hit the expected range, but accidental min-maxing has been kind of hilarious.

And your DM has a nice point; I've gone with arrray or point buy in majority of games (though one was where we each rolled a stat total, and the party had the same, rolled spread to use). Keeping numbers even isn't the most important part of contribution, imo, but it's definitely a factor. And it can feel bad to roll mediocre everything when the party at large is punchier.

Re: Ivy golem. RAW, the given plant gains human-esque senses and the ability to move itself. That doesn't necessarily mean amass itself, grow, or reform into a big, huge thing unless it already was a big, huge thing (like a tree). I'm saying "talk to your DM" a lot here, but that's one I'd toss at them before locking it in. The spell itself is already pretty nice without more power/versatility coming into play. Especially because you're not limited to one. They can't be too powerful or completely reliable because of this.

The RP aspect seems neat, and I know you're not after stats for it, but it does leave the DM with a little homework on how to stat it out in case it does end up pulled into combat or attacked. Or in case other players convince you to make seven. Some shape adjustment on bushes/vines/etc doesn't sound too bad, though.

Actually... Awaken comes online at bard lv 9. At lv 10, you get magical secrets anyway and can grab Find Greater Steed. Have you considered asking your DM if you can reflavor or brew up an equivalent plant steed/companion using that spell? Limit of one, it'd get to carry you places, you could resummon it in different shapes (hedge animals versions?), and the deep bond is built-in with the two of you moving as a "seamless unit" and being able to telepathically communicate with each other. It sounds like it may be a closer fit for what you're after?

[ElfenSafety]

I'll have to run it by the DM. I doubt it would be an issue as I'd plan to give it the specific instruction to make itself scarce in combat situations, and I wouldn't be making multiples. Consider it more like a therapy pet that's a friend in its downtime.

I can ask if they'll help reskin it, after all it's gonna be a while before it's even a factor so I'm sure we can arrange something. Even if when combat occurs something happens like Seymour's 'Dismissal' ability from FFX. Side note: I'd legit be happy for that to happen as it would mean it wasn't harmed which is the real issue here. As it would be a plant one well placed fireball would probably be fatal and hit right in the feels.

And rereading the posts I understand that if I make one it's under no compulsion to be friendly after the 30days runs out. I just plan on taking care of it, treating it like a sort of friend/pet and generally not doing anything to warrant animosity from it. After that I've just gotta hope that our DM isn't a sadist and cross my fingers lol.

[dragoeniex]

I think that's a good mindset. And, honestly, it might feel even more fulfilling to have made a friend that ended up sticking around by choice. :)

[ElfenSafety]

After all, worst case scenario = I just have to try again at a later date... I can deal with that. Though if the DM is a sadist we may end up with an awakened country lmao

Edit: Introducing 5e Marvel Edition: Wrath of the Moss Monster!

[Kaliayev]

Imo, the ultimate spy would look something like this: 11 rogue/6 bard/3 warlock (10 bard/7 rogue if you prefer a bardic focus). You get expertise three times (four times if bardic focus). For rogue, go with either arcane trickster or mastermind. The latter has the more immediate spy craft utility, but AT gives more spells, slots, and mage hand shenanigans. If pursuing the AT route, definitely pick up the actor feat. For bard, you obviously want whispers, as mantle of whispers is the best feature available to a spy. For warlock, choose Archfey or GOO and either the chain or tome pact. Both patrons have a level one feature and spells that would be useful to a spy. Your pact really depends on what you might want to prioritize. Tome with the book of ancient secrets would give you access to all the first and second level ritual spells over time. For a spy, that's an absurd amount of utility. Chain gives you a great secondary spy in the form of an imp, which can turn invisible and get into spaces that you might not be able to. Regardless of your pact, one of your invocations should be devil's sight, because dankness is a spy's best friend.

P.S. Personally, I might have started with warlock for the wisdom save proficiency, which would be a high priority for a spy.

[Stygofthedump]

There is a pretty cool guide for this. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...zed-party-face
Not perfect for theme but close

[Keravath]

One of the better dips for a spy character can be a Warlock.

The mask of Many Faces invocation allows use of disguise self at will. If you take the Actor feat and combine with starting rogue for expertise in deception and persuasion and you can look like anyone, act like anyone and change to someone else in less than 6 seconds. Walk behind a pillar and walk out totally changed.

... and it only takes two levels.

If you want to have armor and weapons available then take the invocation that allows casting of mage armor at will and take Pact of the Blade at level 3 which allows you to summon up any weapon (the weapon is considered magical and you are always proficient with it).

This allows you to walk into any social situation, looking like absolutely anyone, and both apparently unarmed and unarmored.

Anyway, some of the warlock invocations can work extremely well in a spying role. However, Devils sight deserves an honorable mention since you see as well in the dark as you would in bright light. This means that unlike darkvision, you do not have disadvantage on perception checks in total darkness. This means that finding traps or making any other checks relying on seeing things in the dark are much easier.

[ElfenSafety]

Delayed reply I know, work related issues. Thank you guys for the suggestions, now I've just got to find the time to evaluate them. If you think of anything else please let me know and I'll add it to the list, just know that I may be rather slow to reply because Xmas lol.

[Laird]

If you want a fun character and are playing a changeling... I'm a changeling Sorceror currently in one campaign I am playing, also Hiding my nature from the party and everyone else (made hate for magic/shapeshifting, penalty death...) I love it. I took subtle spell so noone can catch me casting spells that help me deceive. Minor illusion and I roleplay as him being observant and a little bizarre. Separate rooms with mirrors, DM drunkenly almost let slip I wasn't your average Human though...

Its easier to RP a Human as Changelings don't have darkvision, however were I you, I would Actually look at a Rogue Inquisitive/Sorc. Subtle spell is amazing with that utility, the advantage on isight and Perception can help you notice a lot(assuming you take expertise, go shadow sorceror for Eyes of the dark (120ft darkvision at level 1) and now you can RP that elf. As for levels I would go Rogue 6/Sorc 14, That gives you 2 sets of expertise (Go Percep, and Stealth, Decep and Your choice (I suggest Insight for social games or athletics) Sneak past what you can't lie about, subtle spell what you can't sneak or lie about. It also give you a BA teleport to 120ft at Shadow Sorc Level 14. Plus uncanny dodge.. You will be slippery in combat and social situations. The inquisitive can be changed out if you want but Eye for Decit and Ear for deceit are pretty useful for a spy. You can take all the mental spells from Sorc and focus on manipulating minds PLUS you get 4 cantrips too.

Very fun.

[ElfenSafety]

Laird that sounds pretty awesome, I'll have to look into it. Sounds amazing though. Before I was thinking of taking Lock to level 3 for Aspect of the Moon for sleep immunity and extra time for minor tasks (like forgery etc). I can't deny your build sounds like it has more versatility though, so I'll be sure to research when I have more than a moment to myself ^^ Thank you