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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

    1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

    2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

    3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

    What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?

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    JNAProductions's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    1) They get up to 9ths. Their 6th-9th slots are special, called Mystic Arcanum, but yeah, they get 9ths.

    2) That's true of a lot of classes. The idea is that you can get your concept ready soon, rather than waiting till level 14 or whatever.

    3) Yeah, that's a problem for Monks and Fighters (though Fighters to a lesser extent) too.

    And yes, there is. If you have a wide variety of adventuring days, you get more spells with oomph than any other caster, as well as a lot of at-will abilities.
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genoin View Post
    So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

    1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

    2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

    3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

    What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?
    I have played in, ran, or supervised games of 5e from play test up.

    A grand total of 2 times I have ever seen someone take more than 3 levels of warlock.

    I have more than to 50 take warlock 2/ and leave.

    Warlocks are super front loaded with all their good stuff.
    Now that hexblade is out it is even more of a shove to take 2 and leave.

    It is simple as this:

    If you are going to be a charisma class, sorcerer, bard, paladin, some rogues, or other outside the norm builds, hexblade 2 lets you get:
    Shields, light and medium armor, that is instant good ac on anyone.
    Using a non-combatant stat for all offensive abilities.
    Letís you ignore str or dex depending on what you wear.
    Gives you a magical, auto scaling, long range, iddisitavlr for e damage ability at will that uses your main non-combat stat for attack and damage, and gets more attacks faster than a straight fighter while only using one hand.
    Letís you refil a pair of utility slots.


    However after level 2:
    If you want to fight with a weapon you have multiple feat taxes to pay.
    You going zero extra spell slots to use per combat until level 10.
    You have no utility slots to throw around.
    You must cast spells out of the highest slot even if you gain nothing. Have fun with that 5th level spell slot Shield spell.
    If you get high enough to get spell over 5th, you can never change them, you canít upcast with them, no not even using your one spell of those levels to be an upcast lower spell.
    Your own class specific spells: armor of Agathys, hunger of hadar, and eldritch blast are done just as well or even better by every full caster other than you because they have more slots and can upcast a 6, 7, 8, or even 9th level armor of agathys, which you canít do with your own spell. They can cast a 3rd level spell slot hunger of hadar and save their 4th and 5th levels for other things. You canít, you have to spend them on a class specific spell that does not scale.

    Play a straight warlock in a game with a warlock 2/ sorcerer x.

    You will see mighty fast how badly they were designed.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genoin View Post
    So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

    1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

    2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

    3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

    What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?
    9th's (but no second 6th or 7th slots) via MI.

    First 2 really.

    Bladelock12 is an extremely gishy gish. Some of the pact features (UA raven queen 7 being my personal favorite) are semi-entirely unique. Some folks hate multi's. Some folks want eldrich smite.

    It's an extremely flawed class with some cool mechanical tricks and some great fluff. Some levels are just painful as hell single class though and it is bar none the worst casting caster.
    Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2018-12-02 at 06:20 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genoin View Post
    So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

    1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

    2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

    3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

    What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?
    Personally I feel like #1 is the key factor. Sure, you get Mystic Arcana to cast 6th-9th level spells, but still, you have only one spell of each of those levels, you can't ever change them, you can't upcast anything past 5th level, etc. It doesn't really compete with the feel of a genuine archmage or archdruid or even archbard.

    Therefore, if I'm going to play a warlock, it's going to be a situation where I don't really want to feel like a dedicated "full" spellcaster--when I want to feel like a gish who just happens to get some cool 6th-9th level spells on top. Therefore, warbearians are fun (Bear Totem Barb 1-3/Fiend Bladelock 1-17), because they are better Barbarians than Barbarians are; but they are not better wizards than wizards are.

    But warbearians are very MAD, so they are rare. And most other warlock concepts only require 2-5 levels of warlock.
    June 17, 2019: No longer on GITP due to frustrations with forum technology and culture. Find me on Reddit as hemlockR.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    I hate that Warlock has become a "dip class", because it has tremendous potential from a role-playing & storytelling perspective. I've come to loathe when people cherry-pick levels from front-loaded classes, with no thought to why the character would make those choices. The whole premise behind the class is striking a bargain with a very powerful & dangerous entity, I've gotta think a being like that would be pissed if the person got a few of the basics and then said "Nah, I don't need anything more from you, I'm gonna go study something else." I can't imagine too many powerful Fiends, Fey, Great Old Ones etc. would react well :)

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genoin View Post
    So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

    1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

    2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

    3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

    What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?
    1. They're styled quite differently, to the point that they do not get the "Spellcasting" class feature like all the other casters get. They get "Pact Magic" instead.

    2. You can make an argument for this, but they are hardly the only class you could make it for.

    3. Except that isn't the "classic paradigm" for 5th Edition. A typical 5E adventuring day is meant to include Short Rests. Several classes have abilities that recharge on a Short Rest. Warlocks, Monks, Bards, Fighters, Clerics and Druids off the top of my head. If your DM doesn't allow time for Short Rests during the adventuring day, they're potentially crippling multiple members of the party.

    Yes, mechanically the Warlock gains quite a bit of power from just the first few levels. But focusing solely on the mechanics of the game is missing a big part of the fun of D&D, imo.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    dnd 5e is all about front loaded classes and warlock is extremely front loaded. eldritch blast alone is worth a single lv dip. one easy fix to help out pure locks

    -agonizing blast is based off warlock levels character lv. so no 2 lv dip for cha to all the eldritch blast bolts.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    I prefer to frame warlock in my mind as being a "archer fighter" that is neither an archer nor a fighter. Just consistent, long ranged damage, and then you get spells which are pretty cool. The issue there is of course you get all the damage that the cantrip gives you regardless of splitting levels, so you're always getting that high round to round damage with the first two levels and can then opt to swap over to a different class for more varied benefits. It's not a "dip only" class though, you can do fine as a pure warlock, so long as you understand what you're in for- good cantrip damage, a couple of mean spells in every fight, and a lot of hyper-optimizers pretending to know how to build your character better than you with a bunch of sorcerer levels instead of having higher level spell slots coming in on schedule.
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genoin View Post
    So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

    1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

    2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

    3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

    What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?
    As somebody who wholly loves the warlock and has played at least 7 across several level spreads, I thought I would chime in.

    First things first. Multiclassing is a variant rule and could be not allowed. Most DMs I know typically don't allow it.

    1. No they aren't. They are styled in their own unique way to fit their own flavor and mechanics. Sure, they don't get a lot of spells or spell slots but their class specific spells are really unique and powerful, most notably Hex. They are different from all of the other casters too in the fact that their magic is learned, innate, or granted by worshiping. They have been given magic as part of a deal with a lower level entity. Their also built as one of the most versatile classes with several unique options that allow for many different build. Calling them a "Caster" is like calling a kitchen knife a paint scraper. Sure you can scrape paint with a kitchen knife in a pinch, but that's not what it's meant for. It's meant for the many uses of a kitchen knife from cutting vegetables to crushing garlic.

    2. So is every other class. The first three levels of any class have the best abilities and a subclass. Fighter gets Fighting Style and Action Surge. Rogue gets Expertise and Cunning Action. Cleric gets Channel Divinity. Paladins get Divine Smite. The only real difference is that warlocks get a lot more options to choose from that can benefit many different builds.

    3. As other people have stated, 5th edition adventuring days are intended to have short rests. I tend have four or five fights in a combat heavy day and my players typically get one or two short rests. This is about the recommended amount and it really works. Your long rest dependent classes are running on empty by the end(after doing some crazy NOVAs) while your short rest classes are still doing fine. That how the game is designed.

    It also pains me to see that Warlocks are seen only as a dip class on forums. High level warlocks are awesome. You get some crazy stuff, more that XGtE is out. There is some high level stuff that you wouldn't enjoy until you got their. My personal favorites are Minions of Chaos which allows you to cast Conjure Elemental using a spell slot. Grabbing all the crazy Eldritch Blast invocations so you can shove somebody 10ft from 300ft away and then lower their movement speed by 10ft while also dealing 1d10+cha damage.

    Lets not forget some of the crazy subclass abilities of higher levels. Hurl Through Hell is just so fun. Create Thrall allows for some wicked shenanigans. Their are also some really fun high level spells you miss out on from the subclasses. Hallow, Seeming, Telekinesis, Banishing Smite(that you can cast at level 9), and Guardian of Faith are some fun ones of the top of my head.

    Their is also the fact that several of the abilities scale with level. Like the Fiend Warlocks Temp Hp ability or Tomb of Levistus.

    To round up, the point is that Warlocks are really great for multiclassing and the weird spell and power progression really only encourages it. But you have to be open to a what makes the class what it is. They are mainly Eldritch Blast spammers with a side of pact flavored shenanigans mechanically. But if you really get into it, they are one of the most versatile and unique classes in the game. They can be anything from the parties infiltrator to the guy with all of the ritual spells. They could have a familiar that's always invisible, or a epic weapon that they can summon out of thin air. And regardless of how you build the warlock, it will never be bad at blasting down enemies with Eldritch Blast. It offers you fun flavor and customization without ever sacrificing the core power of the class. In my opinion this is what makes the class so great.

    P.S. You shouldn't come at the game from a purely mechanics perspective. The warlock is my favorite class to role play(if your DM runs your patron well) and can allow for tons of great characters and moments. Some examples from my characters might help your creative spark.

    Octavius, my Fiend Warlock, was neutral good character who used to be an archaeologist. One day he found an ancient statue that harbored an ancient demon named Basileth. The demon was in a weakened state and struck pity in Octavius. They struck a deal that the demon would reside in Octavius but was only allowed to kill evil people. In exchange, Octavius was given access to ancient secrets of old. Their relationship was more symbiotic than most warlocks and Basileth's dependence on Octavius to survive and get around was really fun for both me and my DM. Octavius was also a pacifist and Basileth would take control of his body in combat. This would cause horns to grow that Octavius would have to shave off. He was really fun.\

    Their was also Valrsyn, a Drow Celestial Warlock who was Chaotic Evil but was forced to obey the law and do good things by his patron. He made the pact in exchange for his life so he doesn't have much of a choice.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Wow. I did not realize how long that was.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Group think

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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genoin View Post
    So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

    1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

    2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

    3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

    What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?
    1) already addressed by many.

    2) also address and as someone has stated some dont allow muticlassing.

    3) i do gritty realism, they shine.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    The Warlock is front loaded. Hexblade is terribly front loaded. The fixes were good but too much was put on level one.

    I also agree that Warlock feels empty after 11 when it gets its 3rd spell slot and first 6th level spell.

    I wouldve made access to armor a 5th level invocation? Just something so it's not so dip able.

    As for feeling empty at higher levels maybe better and more high level invocations would help.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    To the people who are saying that they feel "empty" at higher levels, I don't get it. You could argue that most classes feel "empty" at higher levels. Fighters only get subclass stuff past level 9 and people don't complain. It's similar for every class. If anything, the Warlock is one of the few classes that still has you picking new class features at higher level with invocations. I think that it shouldn't be a mark against the class that they follow the trend of every other class. Most high level stuff is just improvements of other things from lower levels of more spells.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    I think pure warlock (hexblade, pact of the blade) is likely one of the better PAM+GWM options because of the methods the spell casting and invocations allow to generate advantage on every attack. For a variant human warlock, PAM+GWM can be online by level 4 - combined with darkness+devils sight for always on advantage using a 10' reach polearm and it can do devastating damage. The barbarian can do the same with reckless attack ... but it is more vulnerable when doing this rather than less vulnerable as in the case of the warlock. Warlock will also get shadows of moil at 7th level to replace darkness+devils sight if they wish. This will significantly outdamage eldritch blast except perhaps from a sorlock using quicken.

    A warlock dip adds a lot to any charisma casting class ... two invocations at level 2 are very useful along with the 2 short rest spell slots but warlock as a primary class also has a lot of appeal.

    In a typical adventuring day with a couple of short rests, a high level warlock will have 6 to 8 fifth level spells to use ... in addition to their once/day mystic arcanums and 6 to 9 at will spells or bonus effects from invocations. It doesn't have the same staying power as a full caster class but it does have a lot of magical resources in addition to its other features.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Spastic View Post
    To the people who are saying that they feel "empty" at higher levels, I don't get it. You could argue that most classes feel "empty" at higher levels. Fighters only get subclass stuff past level 9 and people don't complain.
    You mean level 11, and yes they do complain.

    Barbarians get very little past level 5, unless they are Zealots.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2018-12-02 at 11:55 PM.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    If you're playing a martial Hexblade, monoclassing Warlock is just fine. You'll advance in tune with all the other martials - a bit of utility between level 5 and level 12 in Shadow of Moil and some invocation options, and a level late but still relatively on time at level 12 you'll get a massive damage boost from Lifedrinker that will keep you competitive with the primary martials that just got their level 11 martial boost. After Lifedrinker and Master of Hexes, you still have all your Mystic Arcanums to look forward to - very underwhelming for a pure caster, but very exciting for you because you focused on your martial ability.

    If you're playing a caster anything Warlock... yes, Warlock is a dip only class. There's like 2 or 3 extremely niche things a Warlock can do that a Sorlock can't, and to make matters worse those niche advantages only apply in very narrow level ranges - for everything else, a Sorlock is entirely superior to a Warlock. Throwing more garbage on what's already a flaming garbage pile, the Warlock spell list is mediocre at best even compared to the Sorcerer, not even propped up by its unique Warlock-only spells. If Wizards of the Coast had any foresight, they would've made Eldritch Blast and Hex both Warlock class features that scaled with Warlock level rather than having EB scale on cantrip dice and Hex be usable by anyone that can dip into it. Too late for that now, though. At least martial Warlocks are great post-Xanathar's - go play one of those.
    Last edited by Vexacia; 2018-12-02 at 11:59 PM.
    If you theorycraft for level 20, you don't actually play the game. Also, Swift Quiver sucks.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    If you're playing a caster anything Warlock... yes, Warlock is a dip only class. There's like 2 or 3 extremely niche things a Warlock can do that a Sorlock can't, and to make matters worse those niche advantages only apply in very narrow level ranges - for everything else, a Sorlock is entirely superior to a Warlock. Throwing more garbage on what's already a flaming garbage pile, the Warlock spell list is mediocre at best even compared to the Sorcerer, not even propped up by its unique Warlock-only spells. If Wizards of the Coast had any foresight, they would've made Eldritch Blast and Hex both Warlock class features that scaled with Warlock level rather than having EB scale on cantrip dice and Hex be usable by anyone that can dip into it. Too late for that now, though. At least martial Warlocks are great post-Xanathar's - go play one of those.
    But warlock aren't meant to be "casters." They are perfectly functional at doing other things that a sorlock can't do. There are a lot of great invocations that you won't be able to get if you just take a dip of warlock. You can get things like infinit detect magic or conjure elemental. I think you want them to be a "caster" but thats not their design. Their built for casting low level abilities infinitely not getting crazy insane magic abilities.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Spastic View Post
    But warlock aren't meant to be "casters." They are perfectly functional at doing other things that a sorlock can't do. There are a lot of great invocations that you won't be able to get if you just take a dip of warlock. You can get things like infinit detect magic or conjure elemental. I think you want them to be a "caster" but thats not their design. Their built for casting low level abilities infinitely not getting crazy insane magic abilities.
    It really doesn't matter how much you twist and contort and attempt to make an ugly runt seem like a prize hog - it's still a runt at the end of the day.

    The comparative usefulness granted by having the bulk of your levels (all but 2 or 3) in Sorcerer far outweighs anything additional higher level invocations grant in all but extremely niche circumstances, as I said in the post you quoted but decided not to read.
    Last edited by Vexacia; 2018-12-03 at 12:13 AM.
    If you theorycraft for level 20, you don't actually play the game. Also, Swift Quiver sucks.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    I read it, but I don't agree with it. I'm saying it's more powerful than a Multiclass or that it is better. I just don't think you should say it is bad because you want it to be something else. If you play the game only thinking about the "power" of the classes your missing half of the game. Warlocks will never be stronger or better than a multiclass but that doesn't mean they are bad. Warlocks are not meant to be your power house casters and if you come to them looking for that your going to be dissapointed.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Genoin View Post
    So, I will preface by saying that I am new to 5e, having played mostly 3.5/PF. After having read the forums, it seems to me that the vast majority of times I see warlocks being mentioned it is as a 2 or 3 level dip, rather than a full single class build. Why is this? The reasons i can see with my limited knowledge of the system are

    1. They appear to be styled like a full caster but only get to 5th level spells

    2. The value of the first 3 levels is very disproportionate to the value of later levels.

    3. I imagine games that follow the classic paradigm of the uninterrupted day followed by a long rest are problematic.

    What am I missing? Is there ever really a reason (mechanically) to play a full single class warlock rather than dipping 2-3 levels?
    Warlock 1-20 is just fine. They are the dominant low level caster with most of thier utility up front.
    Hence the Level dips.
    Anyone else who complains is either complaining about game pacing or misguided

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Callak_Remier View Post
    Warlock 1-20 is just fine. They are the dominant low level caster with most of thier utility up front.
    Hence the Level dips.
    Anyone else who complains is either complaining about game pacing or misguided
    If the dm has to tailor the game pacing so your class does not suck, your class sucks.

    The guidelines for an adventuring day is 2 shorts and a long, but many dms donít bother. Many dms also think they make the challenge harder to limit rests, all that does is make warlock unplayable but only unconvince a monk, everyone else will be fine.

    Warlock should never have been a caster class at all, but mike mearls wanted to carry it over from 4e instead of 3.5.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    To jump into the game pacing thing- I completely agree with those who have said itís bad that the DM has to specifically tailor the adventuring day to make things not suck. If all classes had all their ability recharges based off a single type of rest, DMs could use any pacing they wanted, from gritty realism with 5 encounters/day to the 5 minute adventuring day without mucking up balance too bad. This is from my perspective one of the fundamental design problems with 5e.

    Warlocks are often seen as bad because the 5-minute adventuring day happens to be a more popular non-advised rest schedule than lots of encounters with few rests, but if the opposite were the case people would be grieving the plight of the barbarian and the sorceror rather than the monk and the warlock. This doesnít mean that the 5-minute adventuring day is badwrongfun, just that the game is poorly built to handle diverse pacing preferences.
    Last edited by Potato_Priest; 2018-12-03 at 01:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    See, I remember the days of roleplaying before organisms could even see, let alone use see as a metaphor for comprehension. We could barely comprehend that we could comprehend things. Imagining we were something else was a huge leap forward and really passed the time in between absorbing nutrients.

    Biggest play I ever made: "I want to eat something over there." Anticipated the trope of "being able to move" that you see in all stories these days.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    If the dm has to tailor the game pacing so your class does not suck, your class sucks.
    If you don't factor in you players choices, or actively make choices that hurt their characters, that kind of makes you a bad DM. I'm not saying that it's your job as a DM to cater to your players, but if you run the game without considering your players characters and choices you are probably going to have players who wont like playing your game. The players and the DM are supposed to communicate before the game starts so problems don't occur. The classic example is the player who made a dumb fighter with no charisma and then shows up to the table and the DMs starts the game and it's all intrigue and social interaction. If you want to play a warlock and you tell your dm, most likely they will be willing to throw in extra opportunities for short rests and be mindful of the fact that you character is built around them. If you tell your players that you don't plan on allowing short rests then most of them would be okay with that. As long as it comes before they show up with their warlock or monk or fighter.

    The game rules are designed around the standard 2 short rests per 1 long rest anyways. It's not that the DM has to cater to the class, but more that the intended game style supports the class in the first place. Its not even hard to implement. Combat isn't as long as people think it is sometimes. I have run a two hour session with three combats and they only took about 15 minutes each. The rest was exploring and interaction. They got one short rest in there at which they healed and the fighter got some great stuff back. It went really smoothly and the constant variation on gameplay kept my player engaged too.
    Last edited by Mr.Spastic; 2018-12-03 at 01:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    I have played warlocks as high as 18th level. They work great. There are many character concepts for which a warlock/something else multiclass is the best mechanical way to express the concept. There are many other concepts for which a pure warlock is the best way. There's been a single-class warlock in almost every party in every campaign I've ever played or DM'd in 5th edition, and the warlock has always pulled its weight and fit well with the group. I've never heard any players in any of my gaming groups every express dissatisfaction with any of their warlock characters.
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    If I were to redesign the warlock, I would (A) make eldritch blast and hex class features, not spells and (B) make more powerful high level invocations.

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    The value in a lock isn't his casting. It's his versatility.

    The party is Sorcerer, Paladin, Fighter, Warlock. As warlock, you can:
    * be a primary healer via celestial patron
    * be a melee damage via hexblade
    * be a ritual caster via Tome
    * be a diplomat, spy, impersonator, or thief
    * serve as secondary or primary controller (eldritch blast invocations and utility spells)
    * be the magic detector, or other weird things a warlock does best
    * be the best archer ever

    And most of those roles aren't exclusive. Weirdly, a warlock should be viewed like the bard; hardly required, but able to complement just about any party role needed.
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Warlock is a pretty good class on its own, the problem is that warlock is a frontloaded charisma based class that when dipped by other front loaded charisma based classes you effectively gain a multiplicative/logarithmic power bump and simultaneously create a loophole in the limited spell selection those frontloaded charisma based classes have. WotC took till just a week or so ago to errata the fact that invocations intended for an 15 level warlock should clearly not be available to a sorcerer 13 warlock 2, but they still failed to errata any of the other glaring problems like eldritch blast +agonizing blast being the equivalent of heavy crossbow+crossbow expert feat +being able to scale extra attacks based on character level rather than class level.. repelling blast being able to put leveled crowd control spells to shame ... etc.

    For whatever reason, warlock had a wildly different design philosophy than the other classes (many of those invocations are literally bonus feats that other classes could pick in the past like warlocks get invocations). Couple that with what seems to have been a failure to perform much if any sanity checking on warlock & you have the current mess.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is Warlock a dip only class in general?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnirbear View Post
    The value in a lock isn't his casting. It's his versatility.

    The party is Sorcerer, Paladin, Fighter, Warlock. As warlock, you can:
    * be a primary healer via celestial patron
    * be a melee damage via hexblade
    * be a ritual caster via Tome
    * be a diplomat, spy, impersonator, or thief
    * serve as secondary or primary controller (eldritch blast invocations and utility spells)
    * be the magic detector, or other weird things a warlock does best
    * be the best archer ever

    And most of those roles aren't exclusive. Weirdly, a warlock should be viewed like the bard; hardly required, but able to complement just about any party role needed.
    But barring martial Hexblade (a decidedly non-spellcaster-oriented build and an actually-good build at that, unlike caster-oriented Warlock), a Sorlock does all of this and does it better. That's the problem. The thread you're in is literally titled "Is Warlock a dip only class in general" and all but one of your criteria is either satisfied or satisficed by a Warlock dip attached to a real primary caster. And that sole exception as I said both in this post and earlier in this thread is indeed the only proper use case for a monoclass Warlock that isn't strictly superseded by a Warlock dip.

    Warlock doesn't have the resources to exercise this much-vaunted versatility, and everyone singing its praises in this fashion always conveniently fails to acknowledge that.
    Last edited by Vexacia; 2018-12-03 at 02:29 AM. Reason: typos
    If you theorycraft for level 20, you don't actually play the game. Also, Swift Quiver sucks.

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