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2018-12-03, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
If we're going to divine personal preference from the rules made during Gygax's authorship-era, what we'd say is that he really wasn't too concerned with the fate of thieves (rogues, in modern parlance), halflings, and warhammers. Fighting Men/Fighters and Magic Users/Wizards? Yeah, he gave them each their own benefits. A fifth level wizard (which was fairly high level at the time) having a grand total of six spells (pre-selected) to use over the course of an evening, and ****-all useful to do otherwise (unless the DM was big into letting you use flaming oil, in which case every class had an at-will cantrip), now that was pretty constraining.
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2018-12-03, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
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2018-12-03, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2012
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
That's because Banneret is easily the worst designed subclass in the game..out of all of them. 4E and BM need not apply.
SCAG really needed the testing that Xanathar's got. It has some good bits (Arcana Cleric, Long Death Monk) but as a whole it's a complete tire fire for player options.
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2018-12-03, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2015
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
agreed, as otherwise they're no more remarkable than a bard, and notably less so if they have expertise in the skill in question.
Yeah, I was pretty disappointed to see that Manshoon didn't even have disintegrate, which feels like it should be a pretty iconic "evil guy kills your character" move, whereas he has power word kill, but outside of killing off your level 1 to 5 WDDH character wouldn't really be very useful to such a person.Spoiler: bad tactics
I look at the lich and smirk a bit, as I bring myself back to my feet
"What are you smiling about?" it says
"hehe, it looks like you've made... a grave mistake :D"
the bard, actively bleeding out on the ground *ba-dum-tss*
"Ha! Nice try. Telling a bad joke to try to make your opponent drop their guard. Oldest trick in the book. Trust me, I was there."
*barbarian falling, sword in hands, from the top of the castle wall directly above the lich*
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2018-12-03, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
It's great that you like the battlemaster so much. It sounds like you should play one. But I don't really care for maneuvers and I like the champion as is. I just spend a feat or two to flesh out the character's abilities beyond "uses weapons and armor" and that works well. Or I just never worry about abilities at all and focus on roleplaying them in an interesting way. Because, in my experience, how you play a character makes a much larger difference than what's on the character sheet.
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2018-12-03, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
Power Word Kill is pretty useful for someone who has a very big chance of fighting archmages and master thieves, all people who can deal a tons of hurts while being relatively squishy.
This one spell would allow Manshoon to defeat the large majority of Faerun's spellcasters in one move. Or two if he has to hurt them a bit first.
For his iconic "evil guy kills your character" move, he has Finger of Death, which has more or less the same kind of punch as Disintegrate but also make the victims become zombies.
He also has Flesh to Stone, which can be pretty impressive when in an evil mage's arsenal.
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2018-12-03, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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- San Francisco Bay area
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Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
Part of the reason that I choose to play Champions is to br spared some keeping track of resources.
....Basically my point is that the Battle Master has cool unique abilities that should belong to the fighter as a whole, to give it the unique feel that it somewhat lacks.
I find the Battlemaster almost as complex to play as one of the spellcasting classes, it's not my first choice by far.
Sounds good to me!
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2018-12-03, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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- ICU, under a cherry tree.
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Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
I find the Champion appealing for the same reasons 2D8HP just mentioned; no need to keep track of resources. What is the point of having a cool ability to use if I'm going to be worried about being able to use it later? Should I use it now? Is it worth it? What if we don't have a rest? I don't want to make those cost-benefit analyses while I'm playing, so no thank you to three superiority dice per rest lol.
That said, I don't find any of the other fighter archetypes that appealing, so I do agree with the OP to some extent. They just don't grab me. Eldritch Knight is nice, and I've played one in a short game. But I'm a fan of the badass normal, so I count Eldritch Knight as something beyond a simple fighter.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2018-12-03, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
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2018-12-03, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
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2018-12-03, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2017
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
You are not properly evaluating the samurai archetype, in my opinion.
The battlemaster is stronger in tiers 1 and 2, but in tier 3 the samurai is roughly equal in terms of damage output because of the Tireless Spirit feature. The samurai pulls ahead in damage output in tier 4 because of Tireless Spirit and Rapid Strike.
There's a statistical analysis between the two archetypes, which I can't find at the moment. But it compares the damage output of both archetypes in each tier of play. Fighting Spirit and Tireless Spirit also both have amazing synergy with Elven Accuracy and Action Surge.
Battlemaster is the safer choice, since most games don't make it beyond tier 2. However, if you're playing in a campaign that will make it to tier 3 or 4 - samurai is a solid choice.
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2018-12-03, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
the extra feat/asi alone is better than a lot of classes features and is completely fluid. it like the reason bards are usually consider very good class is the freedom provided by magic secrets. fighters are not the best designed class but even the worst subclass (which is up for debate) can be played 1-20 and never feel ineffective. end game the lowly champion is one of the toughest things around and can pump out enough damage that even pit lords will ere on the safe side and try not to eat a full action surged round of attacks from them. there is not legendary resistance to blunt force trauma.
what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
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2018-12-03, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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- The Old West
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
Much as I tend to agree, I feel like fighter has gone back to the fighting-man of the past. Are you a caster? No. Thief or other such scoundrel? No. A warrior chosen by the gods or a defender of man/nature? No. Then you're a fighter. It's the generic class, even more so than rogues, who still get sneak attack by default. You can be basically anyone as a fighter (with some exception to specific class abilities).
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E6 Iron Chef XVI Shared First Place: Black Wing
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2018-12-03, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2018-12-03, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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- Between SEA and PDX.
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Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
Step 1: Make Martial Adept grant 2 Superiority Die rather than 1.
Step 2: Fighter level 2: Do not get Action Surge. Instead, you get Martial Adept.
Step 3: Fighter level 6: Do not get a feat, instead get Action Surge.
Battlemaster remains unchanged. While it might seem redundant to pick it after this change, it still has the option of upgrading your Superiority Dice, which other builds do not get, and so it synergizes with these changes. In addition, Martial Adept becomes a much more ideal pick for martial characters, able to be utilized by Rogues or Barbarians.
This'll also cut down on builds relying on the generic Action Surge and Second Wind as cheap features for casters. Removing the risk from a full caster feels like it pulls away from the value of a full classed martial character, and I think this will incentivize more higher-level Fighters to act as versatile defenders rather than things like the current Fighter 2/Abjurer X to not require any kind of melee support.
This does allow some really cool build ideas. Bard with Rally, Rogue with Parry, Barbarian with Goading Attack. There's a lot of cool things that martial and semi-martial classes can do with 2 levels of Fighter. People won't bother with dipping into Sorcerer, Warlock, or Rogue; they'll now be interested in the Fighter, not to cast better but just to get better at Fighting. Design-wise, this is not much different than people dipping 2 levels into Warlock to get very customized, very powerful and diverse Invocations.Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2018-12-03 at 06:20 PM.
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2018-12-03, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
True, but not a good point of comparison. Short stories are not dungeon crawl games. Fighting Men and Thieves got to make well more than six individual decisions/contributions (in excess of things anyone could do) during a game evening (although for the thief character, that might depend if the trap that killed them was the first, sixth, or tenth trap of the evening. As I mentioned above, being a thief was not really pleasant until 3rd edition).
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2018-12-03, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Massachusetts
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
But it's why we play the fighter.
The classes, archetypes, are not equal.
I'm not drawn to paladin class. Or the barbarian. It's the simple fighter that draws me in. Wants me to play them.
I don't needs rages, or smites, or black eyeliner. I'm not mad at my parents.
If you are drawn to the fighter, you are drawn to they're faults. No magic, no divine nothing.
Just you and a sword. Whit and steel.
Whit and steel, sounds awesome.
That's the fighting man. Just your skill with a blade.
Everyone can read, you know the fighter's limitations, yet you are pulled in. Thinking about it. You can complain, "til the cows come home," it ain't getting fixed.
Yet, here we are. So make champion, a CHAMPION.
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2018-12-03, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
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2018-12-04, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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2018-12-04, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2017
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
Last edited by Eric Diaz; 2018-12-04 at 08:26 PM.
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2018-12-04, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
@WillietheDuck
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Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
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Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2018-12-04, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-12-05, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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2018-12-05, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2018
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- The Moral Low Ground
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
My bigger problem with the EK is not his power levels, it's his total lack of being an actual wizard.
He's an int caster using the wizard spell list, or parts of it.
but he doesn't use his spells like a wizard. He doesn't prep from a book of obtained spells. He takes spells from a level up and then he's stuck with them, like a warlock or sorcerer.. hell, being an Eldritch knight, maybe he should be part warlock (they love that word) with a charisma modifier.
If I play an Int spellcaster, I want the means to be an intelligent caster, not be some third rate sorcerer hack.
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2018-12-05, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
Okay, well I don't really know how the EK is a sorcerer hack any more than they are a actual wizard (they are neither), but to the rest, you are definitely not wrong. As I mentioned before, "Eldritch Knight isn't really the gish some people wanted from it (getting fireballs well after they were a routinely good use of an action, etc.), so much as a fighter with some nice X/long rest defensive and motility buffs." If you were hoping to play a BECMI elf, or AD&D fighter-mage, or whatever else, the EK is not it. They are a fighter who uses spells instead of maneuvers or situation specific bonuses to aid their fighting (mostly defense, with a little mobility and possibly some pretty too-little-too-late AOE damage).
Of course, complaining that the EK isn't a good intelligent caster is a little like complaining that an ambulance isn't a good race car (his 'his total lack of being an actual wizard?' he's not a wizard, he's a fighter), except that I can kinda understand having the expectation that there would be a good Int-based gish in the PHB options (without MC). There are more gish options in 5e than any other edition except 3e, including more than a few Int-based ones (just picking mountain dwarf abjurer gets you there, depending on your definitions). That said, I do wish there was an Int-based, arcane class in the 1/2-caster, ranger/paladin design space.Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2018-12-05 at 09:15 AM.
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2018-12-05, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
Wait, your only problem with the Eldritch Knight is that he doesn't use a spellbook?
Huh. Now that I think about it I actually agree. Wisdom casters all consistently have a fixed list they prepare from, which is perfectly on flavor for divinely granted magic. Charisma casters all have spells known that change when they level up, which is perfectly on flavor for having innate or infused magic. Wizards copy and prepare spells from a book, which makes great sense for gaining magic through inteligence and study. Then EK and AT use the charisma based system that makes sense for innate magic, but use intelligence for some reason. (likely as a holdover from 3.5)
Hmm, I'd be interested in houseruling that, but I can see why they used the innate system too. It's a lot more elegant for limiting spells and schools known, which they considered a necessary limitation on the 1/3rd casters. So the question is, how can you implement a more int-flavored system for EK and AT without giving them ALL of the incredible flexibility that wizards get?
Maybe something to do with needing to copy spells by etching them onto their bonded weapon and therefore having a limit on how many and what kind they can have? I'll need to think about it.
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2018-12-05, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2018
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- The Moral Low Ground
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
Just give em a spellbook, but limit them at 3rd caster rates. They're 3rd casters, that's punishment enough.
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2018-12-05, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
Ah, so you don't like the Eldritch Knight for an entirely arbitrary opinion, without any link to what they can actually accomplish, so they're "outrageously sabotaged". Got it.
Not being a full caster isn't a bloody punishment, The Jack.Last edited by Unoriginal; 2018-12-05 at 11:36 AM.
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2018-12-05, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
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Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
Maybe it's just me, but I'm constantly baffled when people say things like how the EK gets Fireball too late for it to be useful. In my experience, there is never a point where fireball ceases to be useful. It's one of the best AoEs in the game, and one of the major things with 5e is that weaker enemies can still prove a challenge in groups at higher levels. Spells to deal with these groups will always have use, regardless of your level.
Sure, if your DM is only throwing single big enemies or small groups of powerful foes at you, it's use is diminished, but I don't think this is, or should be the norm.Last edited by jas61292; 2018-12-05 at 11:26 AM.
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2018-12-05, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Why do fighters subclasses remain so outrageously sabotaged?
It's not a question of whether it is ever useful, it is a question of whether it is routinely useful for a group's (probably) front line combatant to be taking their action to cast it, instead of their very powerful attack actions. An EK gets fireball at 13th level. At 13th level, the party wizard/sorcerer is using fireball when it is situationally appropriate, and when they want to do something in between using up one of their 4th-7th level slots, and casting a 3d10/3d10+stat firebolt (and, if they are an evoker/certain sorcererers, the prime candidates for using fireball at that level, they have wrap-around effects, making the overall utility much higher). The EK is sacrificing 3+ attacks (probably which do much more than 3d10+stat), but also probably spent a whole lot of opportunity cost setting up the situation where them dropping a fireball was the right decision. It certainly happens, it is just not frequent, particularly in comparison to the uses an EK has for Shield, Absorb Elements, or Misty Step (nor does it synergize with their abilities as well as hitting an opponent with a sword, and then dropping a Hold Person or the like upon them, where the disadvantage on the save is devastating).
EDIT: And, to clarify, I do think that an EK should keep at least one AOE spell in their repertoire.Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2018-12-05 at 12:09 PM.