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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    Optmizing carries a different connotation.
    Optimizing is a bit more broad spectrum, and acknowledges that there is a point of diminishing returns.
    Min-maxing is about going beyond the point of diminishing returns, and sacrificing other capabilities.
    Yes.

    And in this case, taking a 3 dex to get 18 cha fits within the classic definition of min-maxing, while Pelle said he's not a min-maxer. Which is what I was pointing out, along with the fact that, in general, today "min-max" is used broadly to mean "optimization", thus leading to Pelle's statement.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    1)After being routed they will lose half of their treasure. It isn't "disappearing for no reason," rather it is lost because of some combination of the following:

    -They have to abandon their baggage train, which includes most of their treasure, while fleeing
    -They are taken prisoner and robbed and / or ransomed by their captors
    -They must replace or repair gear that was lost or damaged in the battle or the ensuing flight
    -They must pay the costs to resupply their failed expedition, buying new food, ammunition, equipment, and hirelings to regroup when they continue

    2)On a wider note, I don't know why people don't like "mini-games" during downtime. I have always really enjoyed them, for example in the Games Workshop skirmish games (Necromunda, Mordheim, LoTR Battle Companies, etc.) there are always a series of minigames and tables which you use to represent your downtime activities between battles, and I always had a blast with them, sometimes more fun than the actual battles truth be told. However, anytime I have tried to implement them in an RPG they have been met with a cold reception from my play-testers and downright hostility from internet forums.

    I wonder why that is? Maybe its a topic for another thread?

    3)The other has such a strong social phobia that he wants dealing NPCs to boil down to him telling me what he wants from them and then me giving him a DC for a charisma check, and if I ask him either what he is offering in return or what approach he is taking he panics and begins to verbally flail around and say the first thing that comes to his mind.

    4)Yeah, I really guess I should have placed more emphasis on coming up with party goals during our session zero. 5)We did a pretty good job coming up with personalities and backgrounds, but in hindsight we should have spent more time on motivations and expectations. Maybe we will have a talk about that before or after the next session.

    6)For me, unless the game mechanics are actively working against the fiction, I tend to treat all games with pretty much the same level of narrative immersion unless they are abstract they don't have a narrative at all (like Uno or something).

    7)This is not a playtest. This is just a regular campaign for fun.

    8)there random and contradictory actions are wasting everyone's time and, I suspect, killing their immersion and long term interest in the game as they don't have a consistent character to play or goal to work towards.

    9)I don't know if I would ever want to play a game where the GM had no leeway in interpreting what category of challenge various tasks fall under. It would be unnecessarily restrictive, produce bizarro land results of its own, and they write-up for each skill would be the size of the Encyclopedia Brittanica.
    1) Losing half their treasure is "just because", in that no action they take will change that amount. No matter how much of their money is invested in retainers, no matter what those retainers' orders are, no matter if all their money is in one gem that they swallow if captured, they lost half their funds. It's a Gamist "just because", no matter the attempt to put a logical window-dressing on it after the fact.

    2) yes, make that thread.

    3) so just boil it down to a check for him. Just make those explicit rules I talked about, so he has to fill in all the blanks in the process of asking for said roll. "I attempt to convince x to do Y for me, using z as payment / leverage / etc. Diplomacy DC Q?"

    4) yeah, probably.

    5) cool. Although I am a bit confused by "personality without motivations"... Unless you mean that the characters had personalities, but the players lacked motivations.

    6) does the detail level change your immersion level? Do you feel equally immersed using player skills to haggle with a merchant, using complex Ven diagram haggling rules to determine your current state in the haggle process, making a single haggle skill check, and drawing from a "haggle results" deck?

    7) fair enough. It is their first time using the system though, is it not? So them Exploring the system is to be expected, and produces similar results.

    8) I think that they have to have "immersion and long term interest in the game" in the first place for them to kill it.

    I agree that their actions are not conducive to forming such. So, what (if anything) can you do to provide an environment conducive to them forming "immersion and long term interest in the game"?

    9) "I convince the BBEG to be help with this Simple task of handing over the McGuffin of Doom, offering the Amazing commodity of my friendship". Whether the GM agrees that this is a simple task, and whether the GM agrees that The Power of Friendship is an Amazing-rank commodity says a lot about the tone of the game.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2018-12-18 at 11:50 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    @Quertus:

    You´re absolutely wrong there. The original abstraction behind HP and AC have very deep war-gaming and Simulationist roots.
    HP: This was developed to simulate the staying power and effectiveness of a unit of troops. Instead of dealing with it on the level of the individual troopers (I think Warhammer uses this approach, by directly reducing the numbers based on incoming damage), it deals with a combination of effects, from taking damage, environmental conditions, loss of morale running out of supplies, whatever. Once HP hit zero, the unit is "broken" and ceases to be an effective combatant, no matter how many individual troopers remaining and in whatever condition they are on the individual level. (Hence why the 4E Warlord can "heal" by bolstering morale, appealing to fighting spirit and such. In regards to the original abstraction, that class was right on spot).
    AC: This was actually developed for naval war-games, to differentiate between a "hit" and a "breach". The larger warships, especially ships of the line, could be riddled with bullet and cannon holes, but as long as no functional part or important compartment was breached, that damage didn't mean a thing for all practical purposes. (Again, 4E handled that abstraction better with a lot of powers having a "on Miss" line build into them, reflecting a "partial breach")

    Basically, it was a pretty stupid decision to use both sets of abstraction 1:1 for dealing with the level of individual characters and 3E managed to mangle that even more into something unrecognizable.
    But: That isn´t "Gamist" in any way. That said, the way that Talakeal extended the underlying abstraction that beyond the point that reaching the "broken" condition lies death is just quite a bit too much, because it effectively removes death from the game, as long as you have items or money to prevent it.

    @Talakeal:

    Pathfinder actually has a fully developed "Downtime" system (Ultimate Campaign). Most of the newer Adventure Path include a lot of "Mini Games" and stuff that you have to handle during adventure downtime, like managing a rebellion or insurrection, what actually happens in downtime between tours of duty in a military campaign, your day to day business in a courtly setting and so on.
    Last edited by Florian; 2018-12-19 at 01:12 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Yes.

    And in this case, taking a 3 dex to get 18 cha fits within the classic definition of min-maxing, while Pelle said he's not a min-maxer. Which is what I was pointing out, along with the fact that, in general, today "min-max" is used broadly to mean "optimization", thus leading to Pelle's statement.
    I have no idea where the term comes from, I was just riffing on the previous statement, describing min-maxing as maximising the benefits, while minimizing the detriments. This character seems to be all about the benefits, and not at all caring about having big detriments. Hence maxing, within that use of the term. As others have pointed out, that doesn't look like a very optimal build...

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    @Quertus:

    You´re absolutely wrong there.
    You may want to clarify what you mean by this part, because the rest of your post seems to be "but I agree with you 100%".

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    The PCs don't have any long term goals or objectives for their characters or any real drive. They don't want to defend or conquer their homelands, they don't want to be heroes or villains, they aren't trying to unravel any great mystery. They are simply wandering around killing and looting stuff and hoping I will give them adventure hooks.... which doesn't really work in a hex-crawl / sandbox campaign.
    [...]
    Any thoughts?
    I don't think they want to play a role-playing game at all. They want to play Descent or Imperial Assault or some other actual dungeon crawl game. Maybe you should switch systems to a board-game or something.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    But: That isn´t "Gamist" in any way. That said, the way that Talakeal extended the underlying abstraction that beyond the point that reaching the "broken" condition lies death is just quite a bit too much, because it effectively removes death from the game, as long as you have items or money to prevent it.
    So are you saying that it is the removal of player death itself that is the problem?

    If that is the case, it must be a subconscious psychological thing, because my players specifically said they liked that rule.

    Furthermore, in my experiance death isnt really much of a thing in modern gaming. Unless you are hit by a massive attack or an enemy decides to ignore active combatants and finish of an unconscious character death just isnt a possibility.

    In all the games I have played or run in over the last quarter century I can probably count the number of dead PCs on my fingers, and the majority of those were raised almost immediately, turning death into a mere financial setback.

    As I recall, PC deaths al,ost always occurred only when a min maxxed character did someting without the support of the party, for example going off alone or randomly attacking a friendly npc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    I have no idea where the term comes from, I was just riffing on the previous statement, describing min-maxing as maximising the benefits, while minimizing the detriments. This character seems to be all about the benefits, and not at all caring about having big detriments. Hence maxing, within that use of the term. As others have pointed out, that doesn't look like a very optimal build...
    I have always taken min max to mean maximizing the aspects of the character you care about and minimizing those you dont, so the mage in my campaign would be a classic min maxxer.

    Also, optimizer was invented on the forums on the mid 2000s to try and rebrand power-gaming without the negative stigma that was attached to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    1) Losing half their treasure is "just because", in that no action they take will change that amount. No matter how much of their money is invested in retainers, no matter what those retainers' orders are, no matter if all their money is in one gem that they swallow if captured, they lost half their funds. It's a Gamist "just because", no matter the attempt to put a logical window-dressing on it after the fact.

    2) yes, make that thread.

    3) so just boil it down to a check for him. Just make those explicit rules I talked about, so he has to fill in all the blanks in the process of asking for said roll. "I attempt to convince x to do Y for me, using z as payment / leverage / etc. Diplomacy DC Q?"

    4) yeah, probably.

    5) cool. Although I am a bit confused by "personality without motivations"... Unless you mean that the characters had personalities, but the players lacked motivations.

    6) does the detail level change your immersion level? Do you feel equally immersed using player skills to haggle with a merchant, using complex Ven diagram haggling rules to determine your current state in the haggle process, making a single haggle skill check, and drawing from a "haggle results" deck?

    7) fair enough. It is their first time using the system though, is it not? So them Exploring the system is to be expected, and produces similar results.

    8) I think that they have to have "immersion and long term interest in the game" in the first place for them to kill it.

    I agree that their actions are not conducive to forming such. So, what (if anything) can you do to provide an environment conducive to them forming "immersion and long term interest in the game"?

    9) "I convince the BBEG to be help with this Simple task of handing over the McGuffin of Doom, offering the Amazing commodity of my friendship". Whether the GM agrees that this is a simple task, and whether the GM agrees that The Power of Friendship is an Amazing-rank commodity says a lot about the tone of the game.
    3: I have been trying to do just that for years. I have told him that all he needs to do is tell me what he wants, what he will offer, and what approach he is using to present the deal, but that is just too much for him.

    His biggest problem is coming up with what to offer the npcs. He has told me repeatedly that he wants social interactions in an rpg to work like a store, he goes in and tells them what he wants and they give him a price. Of course, that doesnt work so well when you are dealing with intangible things rather than cash.

    1: well... I specifically made it half because the players didnt want any randomness involved. There are lots of rules in RPGs that dont follow realistic probabilities for gamist reasons, I just look at those as averages and abstractions.

    If the players want to take specific steps to protect their wealth I would be open to that on a case by case basis, but I cant really think of any situations that would drastically alter the balance without having large built in costs and / or risks of their own.

    For example, the retainer is being paid to transport treasure through the wilderness which is an inherent cost, as well as incredibly risky as he is both vulnerable and under enormous temptation to betray the party. Likewise a single swallowed gem requires me to give them a significantly valuable single gem early on in the adventure, which is very unlikely, and recovering a single gem from their waste is pretty difficult, especially if they are pooping in the woods at nigh, possibly while lost or being chased or suffering from dysentary.

    But ultimately, there are going to be gamist elements in any game and you either have to ignore them or work with your DM to come up with an exception that works for you on a case by case basis. For example, in 3e you can only raise an ability score every fourth level. If I have my scrawny character hitting the gym and pumping iron 24/7 but I never make it past third level by RAW I will never get any stronger.

    To me the idea that the inclusion of a single gamist mechanic, especially one that rarely if ever actually comes up in play, shattering someones ability to take the narrative seriously is totally bewildering.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Also, optimizer was invented on the forums on the mid 2000s to try and rebrand power-gaming without the negative stigma that was attached to it.

    3: I have been trying to do just that for years. I have told him that all he needs to do is tell me what he wants, what he will offer, and what approach he is using to present the deal, but that is just too much for him.

    His biggest problem is coming up with what to offer the npcs. He has told me repeatedly that he wants social interactions in an rpg to work like a store, he goes in and tells them what he wants and they give him a price. Of course, that doesnt work so well when you are dealing with intangible things rather than cash.

    1:To me the idea that the inclusion of a single gamist mechanic, especially one that rarely if ever actually comes up in play, shattering someones ability to take the narrative seriously is totally bewildering.
    0) such a pity that it had a negative connotation to begin with. Play to the table's balance range.

    3) well, that's a perfectly reasonable way to do things, too. Admittedly, it requires the target to know what you can provide, or to give "unreasonable" requests for the players to sort through.

    1) it's not just a single mechanic that causes that reaction. Well, OK, it can be, if either a) it goes against some major part of the character (PoW who keeps his watch hidden for years, for example); b) the GM just pulls a, "nah, Gamist" response rather than appropriately using Rule 0.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    For a hex crawl, their motive seems to be “get loot and fight monsters.”

    Use that. Have the world react to their burgeoning reputation. Or just run a kick in the door campaign. Or find players more interested in what you’re running.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    For a hex crawl, their motive seems to be “get loot and fight monsters.”

    Use that. Have the world react to their burgeoning reputation. Or just run a kick in the door campaign. Or find players more interested in what you’re running.
    I have no problem with fight monsters get loot, but when the players go to all the trouble of befriending monsters and THEN killing them for loot it seems like it wastes everyones time as well as making for a strange and inconsistent narrative / morality.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I have no problem with fight monsters get loot, but when the players go to all the trouble of befriending monsters and THEN killing them for loot it seems like it wastes everyones time as well as making for a strange and inconsistent narrative / morality.
    Have you tried asking them out-of-character during the game why they are doing things and what they hope to achieve by their actions? That sounds a bit like players who try to guess what their GM wants them to do, while the GM doesn't want to influence their actions and don't tell them that they are doing weird things.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by geppetto View Post
    I dont have a problem with random event tables or consequences myself. Though as a player or GM i would prefer death to be a possibility on said table.

    The consequences should generally be even though. For instance If you can fix your broken bone X by paying 10gp and chatting for 5 minutes then you should be able to find your lost material possessions with a 10gp bribe to find out where they are and a quick 1on1 encounter or fight to get them back.

    That way nobody feels too screwed over. I would also let the players roll on the table. Its silly but it will make them feel more in control.

    As for min maxer, just no. Tell him a 3 STR and CON makes him severely physically disabled. He would not be able to travel all day, carry his own gear, would be riddles with allergies and constantly sick. I might let him go as low as 6, with the full understanding of what the consequences would be for someone whose weak, frail and sickly in job thats physically demanding, violent and constantly exposes the individual to exposure to bad weather, filth, foreign blood with unknown pathogens and old food.

    Perhaps remind him that food poisoning and water born illnesses are very real threats in a world without refrigeration or purified water available. Especially for a person with a compromised immune system.

    If he insists maybe let him go with his 3 CON. And then roleplay the joys is sneezing, coughing and the umm "bubble guts" all at once while hes trying to cast. Should be hilarious for everyone else and teach him a lesson.
    Disease resistance is not represented by constitution: it is represented by fortitude saves.
    And there is near to no diseases in dnd that hampers casting on the other hand you can die fast to diseases since many diseases deals constitution damage.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I have no problem with fight monsters get loot, but when the players go to all the trouble of befriending monsters and THEN killing them for loot it seems like it wastes everyones time as well as making for a strange and inconsistent narrative / morality.
    Yes, that is an absolutly valid point. Honestly, from the story you told so far you seem to be an incrdibly accomodating GM. If your group is a special needs group (as in "most groups have something special that needs tending to since people are so wildyly different) and you have to deal with a lot of those in your group, then it's also hard to give good advice. Honestly, i'd like to play in your group for a session or two to see for myself what I'd as a GM myself would do.

    Option 1) gloss over it and simply continue their weird streak of change, possibly having a session 0 to reset the train.
    Option 2) their weird tendency to screw over former allies has earned them a bad reputation. They are exiled from most civilized places and untrustworthy people and even monsters approach them to ask them to join their ranks of merry bandits. They can collect more villains to their little group and get betryed constantly, having to kill of some allies in defense of their leadership positions and soon can conquer the settlements they formerly worked for. They are agents of chaos.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Disease resistance is not represented by constitution: it is represented by fortitude saves.
    And there is near to no diseases in dnd that hampers casting on the other hand you can die fast to diseases since many diseases deals constitution damage.
    And fortitude saves get a penalty from crap CON. Thus making you sickly.

    And theres any damn disease the GM can think of in the game. So if someone wants to put in one that gives nausea, dizziness, confusion (mental fogginess is pretty common when sick) or even the dang hiccups (good luck with the verbal component) then its there. Thats how this GMing thing works.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I have no problem with fight monsters get loot, but when the players go to all the trouble of befriending monsters and THEN killing them for loot it seems like it wastes everyones time as well as making for a strange and inconsistent narrative / morality.
    So? Real people usually have strange and inconsistent or downright contradictory moralities when you really dig into it. This actually makes the characters MORE believable and realistic then if they had strict and well thought out moral philosophies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    That sounds a bit like players who try to guess what their GM wants them to do, while the GM doesn't want to influence their actions and don't tell them that they are doing weird things.
    This point might be worth considering.
    There is a type of player who just want to have fun by having the GM tell a cool story that they get to act in, and they will try to follow the story as well as they can.
    English is my second language, but I will be more than happy to explain myself in Danish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geppetto View Post
    And fortitude saves get a penalty from crap CON. Thus making you sickly.

    And theres any damn disease the GM can think of in the game. So if someone wants to put in one that gives nausea, dizziness, confusion (mental fogginess is pretty common when sick) or even the dang hiccups (good luck with the verbal component) then its there. Thats how this GMing thing works.
    The average level 1 wizard which dumped con would take a rat familiar and the great fortitude feat.(fortitude saves are one of the main saves so you better have to start by that) and that compensate the -4 penalty from the stats thus making you have a +0
    Do you describe each commoner ever as sickly while all the commoners have +0 to their fortitude save?
    Do you describe every expert of a level lower than 3 as sickly as they have +0 to their fortitude save?
    Do you describe every noble of a level lower than 3 as sickly as they have +0 to their fortitude save?
    No you do not.
    Therefore inflicting that penalty to the wizard is just absurd and makes your entire world entirely inconsistent.
    However if the wizard did also not go through the effort of picking a rat familiar and of picking the great fortitude feat then he will be sickly but it is a really dumb build since at low levels fortitude saves are needed a lot.(at high level you can have a buff stack making you immune to most things that needs a fortitude save and use polymorphing spells that override your stats or become a necropolitan and thus make constitution become a non issue)
    Honestly why did he not dump charisma like a normal person: dumping charisma allows you to get extra opponents which is the main resource therefore dumping charisma is a positive thing and people tries to avoid effects that increase their charisma for that reason.
    If you dump charisma hard enough you save time walking toward the bad guys: while you walk toward the king to take the mission to kill the bad guys the king, his guard and all the surrounding armies and villages tries to attack you immediately so you do not need to walk as much before the first opponents and you save time talking to the king(since he attacks you on sight you do not need to ask him where the bad guys are then you will loot the maps for war in the tactics room).
    Dumping wisdom allows you to be insane and then confuse the gm but since will saves are one of the common saves it is inefficient.
    Dumping str allows you to have an excuse for not carrying anything.
    Last edited by noob; 2018-12-21 at 05:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    @noob:

    Nope. The Wizard is still sickly. He's just surprisingly resilient for someone as sickly.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    The average level 1 wizard which dumped con would take a rat familiar and the great fortitude feat.(fortitude saves are one of the main saves so you better have to start by that) and that compensate the -4 penalty from the stats thus making you have a +0
    But isn't +4 of that +0 from magic and therefore not part of the physical construction that determines if they are sickly or not? Or whatever classification you would use for sickly. I would use "the appearance of being sick" which I find tends to be if you are very sick, or have been sick for a while. People can be very ill and look perfectly healthy.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Have you considered the possibility that your players are fans of backstabbing the NPCs?

    Perhaps that act itself brings them joy, perhaps that act is a goal in and of itself.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2018-12-21 at 07:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by geppetto View Post
    So? Real people usually have strange and inconsistent or downright contradictory moralities when you really dig into it. This actually makes the characters MORE believable and realistic then if they had strict and well thought out moral philosophies.
    That's never been my experience. I agree that strict and well thought out is a bit much, but I have never personally known someone who will do a complete 180 about an important issue only to trash their own work for no reason. Maybe over a long time as their opinions change, but not from one day to the next.

    Also, even if it was realistic, it is still narratively unsatisfying and wasting everyone's time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    This point might be worth considering.
    There is a type of player who just want to have fun by having the GM tell a cool story that they get to act in, and they will try to follow the story as well as they can.
    Yeah. I have had a lot of problems in the past with trying to lead the players down a path and then they simply can't get the clues and wander around aimless and frustrated, so I am trying very hard to keep a completely open world this game.

    It is weird though, "railroading" is the big internet bogeyman, but in my experience the shorter a leash you keep the players on the happier they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Have you considered the possibility that your players are fans of backstabbing the NPCs?

    Perhaps that act itself brings them joy, perhaps that act is a goal in and of itself.
    Perhaps. But why can't they verbalize this desire?
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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    I don't see a problem with having a character being str and dex 3, As strong as a house cat, and dextrous as a snail.

    For the most part, he was right to complain, Not being able to build your own character can be horribly boring, and random misshaps on death which could go from nothing to get a debilitating disease is pretty bull****.

    So, in the end, this doesn't seem like a problem at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    It is weird though, "railroading" is the big internet bogeyman, but in my experience the shorter a leash you keep the players on the happier they are.
    Its only railroading if you force the players to take it otherwise it is just a linear adventure.

    And yes, lots of guides really help in certain types of games (including types your players are looking for). When there is a script for the players to follow - even if it is pretty loose - it really helps if the players know what the script is. Even if it is fine to deviate from the script, I think that doing so is better done on purpose. If only so it is done at reasonable times. There are other types of games where that doesn't hold, but they are pretty different in structure.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    It is weird though, "railroading" is the big internet bogeyman, but in my experience the shorter a leash you keep the players on the happier they are.
    True. Most players are not into it to create or explore, but to be entertained.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    having read further into the thread a little more, I got a new advice.

    No, don't let the Sorcerer character be 3 str and dex, That might work for other systems and be really fun, But if you are playing a system based on DnD 5e it would just get him killed.

    Instead provide him with more options for his character, like other source books and archetypes that he could play.

    In the end, it just seems that you have a player that just wants to have a power fantasy while playing DnD (OH no!! The horror!!), just let him.

    As for the random encounters... How do these happen that a revenant can down so many characters? Could give us a play by play of any of these deadly scenarios? because it does seem like you are running them in an Unimaginative way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I have no problem with fight monsters get loot, but when the players go to all the trouble of befriending monsters and THEN killing them for loot it seems like it wastes everyones time as well as making for a strange and inconsistent narrative / morality.
    What is this wasting time you are talking about? You are playing DnD man, it's a waste of time by definition xD

    Now, that might be my own Bias talking. Since last session my players destroyed everything they had worked for a long time in just a session...

    But since it was Them who did it... We just a hearthy laugh and I am now preparing the next session.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinycor View Post
    I don't see a problem with having a character being str and dex 3, As strong as a house cat, and dextrous as a snail.

    .
    Add that to INT 18 and WIS 18 and you have Steven Hawking, but without the fancy chair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    Add that to INT 18 and WIS 18 and you have Steven Hawking, but without the fancy chair.
    There should definitely be a campaign centered around the adventures of Steven Hawking.
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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    That's never been my experience. I agree that strict and well thought out is a bit much, but I have never personally known someone who will do a complete 180 about an important issue only to trash their own work for no reason. Maybe over a long time as their opinions change, but not from one day to the next.

    Also, even if it was realistic, it is still narratively unsatisfying and wasting everyone's time.
    Well, I can say such people exist...and are quite common. You just need to hang out with more ''extreme" people.

    For something to be "narratively unsatisfying and wasting everyone's time" is just an opinion. It's what you like: other people like other things. And for a group game, you have to accept others opinions....sometimes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Yeah. I have had a lot of problems in the past with trying to lead the players down a path and then they simply can't get the clues and wander around aimless and frustrated, so I am trying very hard to keep a completely open world this game.
    I think the leading the players is the best way to go: the game will be directed and focused...and everyone will have fun, no matter what the players do.

    I find a lot of players do everything they can to ruin the game and more so ruin the fun for everyone...themselves included. AND then they whine and complain about it, as if they did not do anything...when they caused it 100%. This is why it's best for the DM to take the lead....and drag the players kicking and screaming to have a fun game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    It is weird though, "railroading" is the big internet bogeyman, but in my experience the shorter a leash you keep the players on the happier they are.
    Railroading is THE way to go, so says I the Railroad Baron.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Perhaps. But why can't they verbalize this desire?
    This is a general people problem: lots of people can't ''verbalize" anything they want or don't want. It's just part of being human.

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    Default Re: Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories Continued (not really)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly View Post
    Add that to INT 18 and WIS 18 and you have Steven Hawking, but without the fancy chair.
    No no, he is a sorcerer. He is dumping INT as well and having a high CHA instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinycor View Post
    What is this wasting time you are talking about? You are playing DnD man, it's a waste of time by definition xD

    Now, that might be my own Bias talking. Since last session my players destroyed everything they had worked for a long time in just a session...

    But since it was Them who did it... We just a hearthy laugh and I am now preparing the next session.
    I mean, I guess you could look at it that way.

    Basically, they spent an entire session where they got no loot, no XP, didn't explore anything, didn't advance the plot, didn't make any net gain as far as making allies or social contacts, and worst of all didn't really have any fun (they seemed quite morose and regretful about having to kill their allies).

    I mean, yeah, I guess we got to game, but when you only play six hours every two weeks it seems a shame to have a game where the players don't accomplish anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinycor View Post
    As for the random encounters... How do these happen that a revenant can down so many characters? Could give us a play by play of any of these deadly scenarios? because it does seem like you are running them in an Unimaginative way.
    It was a deadly encounter that occurred while the PCs were already down on resources.

    Unimaginative? Could you please elaborate on how anything I said makes it sound "unimaginative" or what imagination has to do with how deadly an encounter is?

    Quote Originally Posted by zinycor View Post
    For the most part, he was right to complain, Not being able to build your own character can be horribly boring, and random misshaps on death which could go from nothing to get a debilitating disease is pretty bull****.
    It might not be to your liking, but plenty of games, both public and house ruled, use these systems, so I guess everyone who enjoys these is having badwrongfun?

    I don't know, if you agree to play with a set of house rules and don't bring up any concerns and then six weeks later start bitching that seems to be a problem to me.

    Also, neither nothing nor debilitating disease were on the mishap table.


    Snark aside though: To clarify, he did make his character, he just did it with words instead of numbers. What he is upset about is that, much like standard 5E point buy, he can't create a character with the absolute maximum or minimum scores in any of (or in his particular case all of) his attributes.

    As for the random mishap table, it is something a lot of games use and it looked like fun, I was just trying it out for an experiment, but after he complained I pulled it after the first session.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2018-12-22 at 02:13 AM.
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