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  1. - Top - End - #211
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisBasken View Post
    Yeah but... EKs and ATs don't prepare spells.

    Clerics, druids, paladins, and wizards do. For each of these, their spellcasting ability ties into how many they can prepare. The other classes just have "spells known," which the those four have as well.

    The difference with (and the advantage of) preparing spells is that a class that does so can swap out its available spells with each long rest. Bards, rangers, sorcerers, warlocks, and the various spellcasting subclasses are stuck with the spells they choose for at least an entire level, and even then by RAW they can only swap out one at a time.
    While true, it doesn't help the situation of int not really doing anything all that meaningful compared to str/dex/con/wis or even the blessed charisma of social interaction +scorlock arcane/divine magic/melee attack/melee damage/etc options that was being discussed.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    But only for DW. I find a lot of its advice actively harmful for the games I want to run. Different games need different approaches. One is not necessarily better than another.
    The general advice surrounding describing fiction etc is pretty much universal to good DMs, but whatever.

  3. - Top - End - #213
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by mephnick View Post
    The general advice surrounding describing fiction etc is pretty much universal to good DMs, but whatever.
    I saw nothing in there that was any better than what's in the 4e and 5e DMGs, and a lot that was totally inapplicable. So my experience is otherwise. As a PbtA game, DW makes very strong and controlling assumptions about the nature of the setting and structure of play that pervade everything. Those assumptions do not hold for most D&D games, so assimilating those assumptions (as you'd have to do for to be a good DW GM) is actively detrimental (at worst) and irrelevant (at best) to being a good D&D DM.
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  4. - Top - End - #214
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Maybe not fixes per se, but the following are design assumptions I wish would have been different:

    1. There are too many resources to spend between Long Rests. I wish the game was balanced instead so that one adventure day worth of encounters could roughly fit into 1 session of play. The variant resting rules don't fix that for my style of play.

    2. Get rid of Bonus Actions. Yes, it gives more options, but it also makes the game more fiddly. I don't want combat to be a cerebral process of contemplating which combination of normal and bonus actions to make the turn tactically optimal, but rather quick decisions on which general action to take.

    Small fixes don't bother me that much, those are easy to house rule and adjudicate at the table.

  5. - Top - End - #215
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    1. There are too many resources to spend between Long Rests. I wish the game was balanced instead so that one adventure day worth of encounters could roughly fit into 1 session of play. The variant resting rules don't fix that for my style of play.
    I agree that a number of things that refresh on long should be revisited to see if refreshing them on short would become unbalanced. For example, if a paladin burns a spell slot for Divine Strike, maybe that slot comes back on a short rest? Would that be too powerful? Maybe only for spell slot levels below the paladin's Charisma mod?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    2. Get rid of Bonus Actions. Yes, it gives more options, but it also makes the game more fiddly. I don't want combat to be a cerebral process of contemplating which combination of normal and bonus actions to make the turn tactically optimal, but rather quick decisions on which general action to take.
    I'm probably in the minority but I like bonus actions (even JC said he'd remove them if he could). What I like about them is that you only get one per round, so they're self-limiting. So for example a rogue must choose between using a bonus action to hit with a second weapon, or using the bonus action to dodge. How would you model that without it getting nuts? Like "If you're wielding two light weapons and you make an attack with one with your action, you may also make an attack with the other but don't add your ability modifier to the second weapon's damage. You may not make the second attack if you [rattle off a laundry list of features that used to use your bonus action, and each of these features must do the same]."

    The bonus action is just a category or a grouping of actions. Much simpler to just say "You may use your bonus action to..." and be done with it. I think people get overwhelmed by the concept of the bonus action but it's really pretty simple. Anything you do has a tag associated with it (action, bonus action, reaction) and you have three buckets in front of you labeled the same. Whenever you do something, you put it in its bucket, and a bucket can only hold one thing at a time. At the start of your turn, you empty out your buckets.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Morty's Avatar

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Deciding what to use my bonus action on was the only remotely interesting thing my rogue could do in combat. I'm not sure why anyone would want to get rid of that.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Gulaghar and Ashen Lilies.

  7. - Top - End - #217
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisBasken View Post
    I agree that a number of things that refresh on long should be revisited to see if refreshing them on short would become unbalanced. For example, if a paladin burns a spell slot for Divine Strike, maybe that slot comes back on a short rest? Would that be too powerful? Maybe only for spell slot levels below the paladin's Charisma mod?
    I like that there are different SR and LR dependent classes, that's nice. What I would like to see, is take a LR class like maybe Wizard and halve their number of spell slots per LR. Then balance other classes accordingly, expecting maybe 1-4 encounters and 1-2 SR per day. That's more feasable to get through in 1 session IME. Then it's much easier to pace the game such that only SR are taken at the table, LR happens between sessions, independent of heroic or gritty time scale. I want players to feel the consequence of wasting or saving their resources for later in the adventure day. That is diminished when you take several weeks break real time in the middle of it.

    The bonus action is just a category or a grouping of actions. Much simpler to just say "You may use your bonus action to..." and be done with it. I think people get overwhelmed by the concept of the bonus action but it's really pretty simple. Anything you do has a tag associated with it (action, bonus action, reaction) and you have three buckets in front of you labeled the same. Whenever you do something, you put it in its bucket, and a bucket can only hold one thing at a time. At the start of your turn, you empty out your buckets.
    In theory bonus actions are neat, but in practise I find it becomes quite fiddly. "I want to do this, now which combination of actions is more optimal for achieving that" or "I want to take this main action, now for my bonus action, let me look over all my spells to see if there are any bonus actions ones I want to cast". Removing BA surely reduces the granularity of actions, but it also makes the decisions much simpler and faster. Which I think is better, because I mainly want a quick narrative resolution of the combat, and not really a tactical puzzle to solve.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    Which I think is better, because I mainly want a quick narrative resolution of the combat, and not really a tactical puzzle to solve.
    If you don't want tactical combat, D&D might not be your best option. There are lots of games that do narrative resolutions much better. Losing that would irritate a lot of my players quite strongly, as well as many others that I know.
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  9. - Top - End - #219
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    I like that there are different SR and LR dependent classes, that's nice. What I would like to see, is take a LR class like maybe Wizard and halve their number of spell slots per LR. Then balance other classes accordingly, expecting maybe 1-4 encounters and 1-2 SR per day. That's more feasable to get through in 1 session IME. Then it's much easier to pace the game such that only SR are taken at the table, LR happens between sessions, independent of heroic or gritty time scale. I want players to feel the consequence of wasting or saving their resources for later in the adventure day. That is diminished when you take several weeks break real time in the middle of it.
    Well, there's this for wizards:

    Arcane Recovery

    You have learned to regain some of your magical energy by studying your spellbook. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than half your wizard level (rounded up), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher.

    For example, if you’re a 4th-level wizard, you can recover up to two levels worth of spell slots. You can recover either a 2nd-level spell slot or two 1st-level spell slots.
    They get this right out of the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    In theory bonus actions are neat, but in practise I find it becomes quite fiddly. "I want to do this, now which combination of actions is more optimal for achieving that" or "I want to take this main action, now for my bonus action, let me look over all my spells to see if there are any bonus actions ones I want to cast". Removing BA surely reduces the granularity of actions, but it also makes the decisions much simpler and faster. Which I think is better, because I mainly want a quick narrative resolution of the combat, and not really a tactical puzzle to solve.
    So you're for removing not just the bonus action as a term, but as a function entirely? No more offhand attacking or bonus action spells?

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Deciding what to use my bonus action on was the only remotely interesting thing my rogue could do in combat. I'm not sure why anyone would want to get rid of that.
    Agreed... And from a mechanical view, the action economy is the entire chassis of the depth of the game.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    As an observation, I find that I have to be very careful in contributing to this subject, because the things I would personally "fix" (note the scare quotes) when looking at D&D would often make the system fundamentally less D&D for those who actively enjoy it, who find it a good fit. I think it's better at that point to find another system. If someone doesn't like levels, or classes, or the particular action economy, or Vancian casting, or linear single-die resolution (ie, the d20), then they should keep an open mind to the possibility that this system simply isn't for them. Rather than trying to hammer the square peg into a round hole...

    Of course, when one system is so much of the market, it's sometimes easy to miss that there are other options, or to be frustrated by the lack of opportunity to use systems that better suit one's tastes.
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  12. - Top - End - #222
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    As an observation, I find that I have to be very careful in contributing to this subject, because the things I would personally "fix" (note the scare quotes) when looking at D&D would often make the system fundamentally less D&D for those who actively enjoy it, who find it a good fit. I think it's better at that point to find another system. If someone doesn't like levels, or classes, or the particular action economy, or Vancian casting, or linear single-die resolution (ie, the d20), then they should keep an open mind to the possibility that this system simply isn't for them. Rather than trying to hammer the square peg into a round hole...
    Maybe try to think of it as "5e tries to be X. Are there parts of 5e that don't work well for a game that tries to be X? Are there parts of 5e that actually work against the game being X?"

    So instead of just it being opinions on what D&D should be, it's ways to tighten up 5e to make it more internally consistent.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: What things would you like to see fixed in 5e?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisBasken View Post
    Maybe try to think of it as "5e tries to be X. Are there parts of 5e that don't work well for a game that tries to be X? Are there parts of 5e that actually work against the game being X?"

    So instead of just it being opinions on what D&D should be, it's ways to tighten up 5e to make it more internally consistent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    As an observation, I find that I have to be very careful in contributing to this subject, because the things I would personally "fix" (note the scare quotes) when looking at D&D would often make the system fundamentally less D&D for those who actively enjoy it, who find it a good fit. I think it's better at that point to find another system. If someone doesn't like levels, or classes, or the particular action economy, or Vancian casting, or linear single-die resolution (ie, the d20), then they should keep an open mind to the possibility that this system simply isn't for them. Rather than trying to hammer the square peg into a round hole...

    Of course, when one system is so much of the market, it's sometimes easy to miss that there are other options, or to be frustrated by the lack of opportunity to use systems that better suit one's tastes.
    But to echo Max_Killjoy here, one of the biggest things 5e tries to do is be a best-parts version of all the previous editions combined, with some new glue and paint. So making something less recognizable as D&D (which for me is about classes/levels, spell-slot-based casting, 6 ability scores and basic resolution using a d20 + modifiers) is exactly contrary to what it's trying to do.

    You can "fix" a compact car by replacing it with a semi truck. But you don't have the same car you started with by any stretch of the imagination. It fits different needs entirely. Same with a lot of the "fixes" I've seen here (and in other such threads). They throw out the baby, the bathwater, and the entire bathroom, when they'd get what they wanted much simpler by starting with a different base. All while destroying the things that a lot of people (myself included) most prize about 5e. From my perspective, if someone "fixed" my car by giving me a muscle car or a motorcycle, I'd be strongly peeved. Even if the new vehicle was much more expensive and fancy. Sure, my car needs some work. The headliner sags, the driver's side sun visor is broken, and the rack and pinion leaks a bit. But those are fixes. Not a complete alteration into something alien. And that's the magnitude of what I'm seeing (some) people suggest here.
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