R157 and 157a from RAW thread. Movement cost while grappling.

[Erys]

Q 157

Can you release a grapple after using half of your movement and then move the rest of your Speed?

Q 157a

If so, can I grapple the creature and move half of my speed again?

157 and 157a: No.

Your speed is halved when you grapple an opponent- meaning your move goes from (usually) 30' to 15'. If you move those 15' you are now out of move and letting go of your victim does not change that.

If you two move only 5' and then let go of your prey you could move another 20' without grappling someone- but if you grab him (or someone else) again you are back down to having half your remaining move (i.e. your remaining 20' once again become 10').

After thinking about this I think my above answer is slightly incorrect. But the answers are still "no".

When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your move speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.

Moving a grapple explicitly cost "half" your movement. So, if you have a base movement of 30' and you:
-move 20', then grapple someone, if you move your target your remaining move halves to 5'.
-move 10', then grapple someone, if you move your target your remaining move halves to 10'.
-grapple someone, as soon as you move your speed halves to 15'. Move 5' then drop person, you still only have 10' remaining.
-have someone grappled from a previous round, but just let him go without moving first. Keep all of your move and do with it as you will.

[napoleon_in_rag]

When I read the title, i wondered why you were asking a refrigerant question on a RPG forum. As in what is the difference between R134 and R134a?

https://engineering.stackexchange.co...gnation-r-134a

[Tanarii]

Moving a grapple explicitly cost "half" your movement.

No it doesn't. Your speed is halved. So if you've already moved more than half your speed, you cannot move at all.

If you move half you speed, then let go, your speed returns to normal. So you can move the remaining half your speed no problem.

Speed is a cap on movement for the round. If it changes, you just compare total distance moved (including any increased movement cost for difficult terrain etc) to the current cap, and see if you can move any more.

So your RAW thread answer and the one in this thread are both incorrect.

[Lunali]

Note that while RAW you can do this, in practice it is likely to get immediately house ruled.

[Arcangel4774]

I agree with tanarii. To support this rational look to changing movement types (flying, climbing, burrowing, swimming)it compares the amount youve already moved,not the percentage of movement you have moved.

Also look to effects that cause difficult terrain. These specify that moving costs twice as much movement (2 ft to every 1 ft of movement). This would end up working like you suggested, although explination of how it works is different.

Edit: The 1st example is evidence of how movement is cap based. The second example is evidence of the different language that is used to support an effect that would work the other way and how it would work.

[FrancisBean]

If you move half you speed, then let go, your speed returns to normal. So you can move the remaining half your speed no problem.

Speed is a cap on movement for the round. If it changes, you just compare total distance moved (including any increased movement cost for difficult terrain etc) to the current cap, and see if you can move any more.

I think this is actually the key question of interpretation here: when does your speed return to normal? Is it when you release the grapple, or is it when your next turn begins? For myself, I agree with Tanarii; the language says "when you move [with a grappled creature]...." Once you're no longer moving with a grappled creature, the speed halving should no longer apply, and your movement used so far should be less than half of your speed.

Personally, I think this is language differentiation created by multiple authors or a missed language shift during drafts and revisions. They were so careful to keep the language of "each foot of movement costs you an extra foot" in all other places, cleaning up so many other confusion points, that I can't bring myself to believe that they intended this situation to be different. But the question is about RAW, so....

[Erys]

No it doesn't. Your speed is halved. So if you've already moved more than half your speed, you cannot move at all.

If you move half you speed, then let go, your speed returns to normal. So you can move the remaining half your speed no problem.

Speed is a cap on movement for the round. If it changes, you just compare total distance moved (including any increased movement cost for difficult terrain etc) to the current cap, and see if you can move any more.

So your RAW thread answer and the one in this thread are both incorrect.

Why would your move return? That makes no sense.

Any supporting evidence to this claim?

It seems "but your move speed is halved" is a move tax that doesn't just go away when you stop dragging a grappled creature.

If I grappled something last turn, then at the start of this new turn I move 15' with my grappled target then let him go- what rule supports me gaining 15' movement?

[Kenny Snoggins]

If I can tag on here,

Assuming I grapple an enemy of medium size, then order my find greater steed griffon mount to dash, how far could he fly? Is his movement halved even though he is not grappling anyone? What about if he also grappled an enemy (so he has one and I have one) and he makes a regular, non dash move?

[MoiMagnus]

Why would your move return? That makes no sense.

Any supporting evidence to this claim?

It seems "but your move speed is halved" is a move tax that doesn't just go away when you stop dragging a grappled creature.

If I grappled something last turn, then at the start of this new turn I move 15' with my grappled target then let him go- what rule supports me gaining 15' movement?

There is a rule about a similar case, so it is just an extension of it:

Using Different Speeds

If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you've already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can’t use the new speed during the current move.

[Erys]

If I can tag on here,

Assuming I grapple an enemy of medium size, then order my find greater steed griffon mount to dash, how far could he fly? Is his movement halved even though he is not grappling anyone? What about if he also grappled an enemy (so he has one and I have one) and he makes a regular, non dash move?

I doubt there is any express RAW for such scenarios. I would say:
I am on mount while grappling another person, mount move is not affected.
I am on mount while grappling another person, while my mount has his own grappled foe- mounts move is halved.

But this is all DM adjudication, YMMV.

[Erys]

There is a rule about a similar case, so it is just an extension of it:

Using Different Speeds

If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you've already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can’t use the new speed during the current move.

Usually you have the same move speed in this above case though; you are just dividing your move among the various types of movements.

If I can fly, burrow, and walk with a speed of 30; I can divide that between the three move types as I see fit so long as I have move. That doesn't at all support the notion that I lose half my move when I grapple someone and move them; but then gain any unspent move back at its full (not halved value) if I drop said grapple creature.

I don't think the rules of the game intend you to be able to 'game the system' by dropping your grapple and re-establishing it mid-move as a means to move twice as far as you should normally be allowed. I look forward to seeing something concrete that supports Tanarii's view though.

[FrancisBean]

Why would your move return? That makes no sense.

Any supporting evidence to this claim?

It seems "but your move speed is halved" is a move tax that doesn't just go away when you stop dragging a grappled creature.

If I grappled something last turn, then at the start of this new turn I move 15' with my grappled target then let him go- what rule supports me gaining 15' movement?

Here's the exact text from the PHB, including the heading (which is relevant here).

Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.

The heading is part of the context, of course. Tanarii (and I) interpret this as meaning, "While moving with a grappled creature, your speed is halved." Therefore, once you release the grapple, the condition halving your speed no longer applies, and your speed is no longer halved. Note: your move doesn't return under this interpretation; your speed does. It's subtle but relevant. And since movement is permitted up to your speed on your turn, suddenly there's headroom on the limit again.

Presumably you interpret the same language as, "At the moment you initiate a movement with a grappled creature, your speed is halved." That has some interesting consequences, too. E.g., you can still move your full move on a turn if you release the grapple before attempting any movement.

Note: there's similarly nothing to say that your speed is restored on your next turn -- or ever. You get your movement back at the start of your next turn. If we don't pick some point where the speed is restored, you literally never get it back. That's almost as absurd as the old 3.5 "heal by drowning" idea. And if we treat it as resetting at the beginning of your next turn, we now have a broken interaction with things like Battlemaster's Maneuvering Strike. You're given the chance to move half your speed as a reaction, which has not yet been restored by the start of your next turn; if you keep the grapple, then at the moment you initiate that movement your speed is halved again. A 30' speed would get halved three times (once from your turn, once from Maneuvering Strike, and once from initiating a move), rounding down to 0.

Really, I don't think the designers intended either rule; I think they erred in the text, and that they intended to apply the usual "double cost" while moving with a grappled creature. Neither reading makes much sense by any reasonable standard. Trying to parse through writing mistakes always ends in this sort of discussion.

[Erys]

Here's the exact text from the PHB, including the heading (which is relevant here).



The heading is part of the context, of course. Tanarii (and I) interpret this as meaning, "While moving with a grappled creature, your speed is halved." Therefore, once you release the grapple, the condition halving your speed no longer applies, and your speed is no longer halved. Note: your move doesn't return under this interpretation; your speed does. It's subtle but relevant. And since movement is permitted up to your speed on your turn, suddenly there's headroom on the limit again.

Presumably you interpret the same language as, "At the moment you initiate a movement with a grappled creature, your speed is halved." That has some interesting consequences, too. E.g., you can still move your full move on a turn if you release the grapple before attempting any movement.

Note: there's similarly nothing to say that your speed is restored on your next turn -- or ever. You get your movement back at the start of your next turn. If we don't pick some point where the speed is restored, you literally never get it back. That's almost as absurd as the old 3.5 "heal by drowning" idea. And if we treat it as resetting at the beginning of your next turn, we now have a broken interaction with things like Battlemaster's Maneuvering Strike. You're given the chance to move half your speed as a reaction, which has not yet been restored by the start of your next turn; if you keep the grapple, then at the moment you initiate that movement your speed is halved again. A 30' speed would get halved three times (once from your turn, once from Maneuvering Strike, and once from initiating a move), rounding down to 0.

Really, I don't think the designers intended either rule; I think they erred in the text, and that they intended to apply the usual "double cost" while moving with a grappled creature. Neither reading makes much sense by any reasonable standard. Trying to parse through writing mistakes always ends in this sort of discussion.

I don't think the intent of moving a grappled foe was supposed to be one where you could, with a speed of 30: move 15' (making your speed 0), letting go (giving you 15' feet move again), then re-grappling the target and letting you move it another 5'.

Now if you and Tanarii want to say that is your interpretation of the RAW that is fine; but saying my interpretation is less RAW, or outright wrong, is not cool (and as far as I can tell- not correct). I feel my interpretation is much more supported, as it disallows players from 'gaming the system' by dropping and picking up their grappled targets mid-move to somehow move more.

((Also, it should be noted that Maneuvering Strike allows an ally to move using their reaction does NOT pull from their move. It is in addition to their usual move. It would be utterly useless otherwise. If you are grappling a foe and an ally does that for you- your reaction speed is halved.))

[Tanarii]

I don't think the intent of moving a grappled foe was supposed to be one where you could, with a speed of 30: move 15' (making your speed 0), letting go (giving you 15' feet move again), then re-grappling the target and letting you move it another 5'

Thats not right.

Your speed is 30. You grapple a creature, it's now 15. You move 15, then let go. Your speed is now 30, and you've still only moved 15, so you're free to move 15 more feet. You grapple again immediately before moving, your speed is halves to 15 again ... and you've already moved 15, so you can't move any more.

I agree it'd be better if each 1 ft of (actual) movement cost an extra 1ft of movement while dragging a grappled creature. But that's not what it says. It says you speed is halved. And you don't "use up" speed by moving, it's the cap on your total movement.

[ThePolarBear]

with a speed of 30: move 15' (making your speed 0)

This is where you are messing up. Your speed is still 15. The fact that you "deduct" doesn't result in your new speed: it results in how much more you can move.

[Kenny Snoggins]

I doubt there is any express RAW for such scenarios. I would say:
I am on mount while grappling another person, mount move is not affected.
I am on mount while grappling another person, while my mount has his own grappled foe- mounts move is halved.

But this is all DM adjudication, YMMV.

Nice. So my dreams of my grappling someone, dashing, then dropping them for 16D6 in a single turn are still alive! Although ~48 damage and prone on a single target isn't an amazing round at level 13. Kinda feel like falling 160 feet should be a bit more lethal... not many people survive falling off a 16 story building.

[JackPhoenix]

If I can tag on here,

Assuming I grapple an enemy of medium size, then order my find greater steed griffon mount to dash, how far could he fly? Is his movement halved even though he is not grappling anyone? What about if he also grappled an enemy (so he has one and I have one) and he makes a regular, non dash move?

Funny. Few days ago, I came up with a mounted grappler character idea. Ride in, grab an enemy, ride (or fly) away. Mount's speed isn't affected unless it also grapples an enemy. However, you'll have to watch out for the victim's weight... while it doesn't matter how much the enemy you're grappling weights for some weird reason (well, the reason is "we haven't included the information about creature weights"), it still matters for the mount's carrying capacity.

[LtPowers]

not many people survive falling off a 16 story building.

Not many people survive being in the blast radius of a fiery explosion, either. Welcome to D&D.


Powers &8^]

[Kenny Snoggins]

Funny. Few days ago, I came up with a mounted grappler character idea. Ride in, grab an enemy, ride (or fly) away. Mount's speed isn't affected unless it also grapples an enemy. However, you'll have to watch out for the victim's weight... while it doesn't matter how much the enemy you're grappling weights for some weird reason (well, the reason is "we haven't included the information about creature weights"), it still matters for the mount's carrying capacity.

I don't know of any explicit references to a griffons carry capacity. They have strength 18, but according to their flavor text they routinely fly off with horses, which usually weigh at least 1000 lbs. I think an adventurer or other similar humanoid in full battle rattle would almost never exceed 400 lb, so carrying a rider and 2 medium grappled foes would seem to me to be within their normal operating range.

@LtPowers

Sure, I get that. And the game even models the relative lethality pretty well: a 160 foot fall will do more damage than even a level 9 fireball. I just think since HP is kind of an abstraction since you don't suffer increasing debilitation that falling damage above a certain height should have a chance to immediately drop you to 0 HP on a failed con save, or something like that. You can't dodge the ground coming up at you at terminal velocity.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't know of any explicit references to a griffons carry capacity. They have strength 18, but according to their flavor text they routinely fly off with horses, which usually weigh at least 1000 lbs. I think an adventurer or other similar humanoid in full battle rattle would almost never exceed 400 lb, so carrying a rider and 2 medium grappled foes would seem to me to be within their normal operating range.

That's exactly what I'm talking about, though: gryphon can fly off with a horse when he's grappling it (because weight doesn't matter for grapple, only size), but when not, he's limited to 540 pounds as maximum encumbrance from Str 18 and being large sized.

[Arkhios]

@Erys: I may be wrong but to me it seems you have mistaken 'move' as if it was some sort of action. It's not. (in 5th edition!)

The moving is dictated by Speed of how far you can move in one turn. Speed is the key here, not 'move'.

[NaughtyTiger]

Moving a Grappled Creature: When you move, you can drag or carry the Grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.

the rule is explicitly referring to moving a grappled creature
"When you move, you can drag or carry"

Is there argument that the RAI is "it costs double movement to drag someone only while grappled"?

Why would your move return? That makes no sense.
Any supporting evidence to this claim?

As far as RAW, i am reading that your movement speed is only halved while moving with the target, because it is in the subsection "moving a grappled creature" not "moving with a grappled creature"

just like the rule "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action." only applies to bonus action spells because it is in the bonus action subsection

[Erys]

Thats not right.

Your speed is 30. You grapple a creature, it's now 15. You move 15, then let go. Your speed is now 30, and you've still only moved 15, so you're free to move 15 more feet. You grapple again immediately before moving, your speed is halves to 15 again ... and you've already moved 15, so you can't move any more.

I agree it'd be better if each 1 ft of (actual) movement cost an extra 1ft of movement while dragging a grappled creature. But that's not what it says. It says you speed is halved. And you don't "use up" speed by moving, it's the cap on your total movement.

This is where you are messing up. Your speed is still 15. The fact that you "deduct" doesn't result in your new speed: it results in how much more you can move.

@Erys: I may be wrong but to me it seems you have mistaken 'move' as if it was some sort of action. It's not. (in 5th edition!)

The moving is dictated by Speed of how far you can move in one turn. Speed is the key here, not 'move'.

the rule is explicitly referring to moving a grappled creature
"When you move, you can drag or carry"

Is there argument that the RAI is "it costs double movement to drag someone only while grappled"?



As far as RAW, i am reading that your movement speed is only halved while moving with the target, because it is in the subsection "moving a grappled creature" not "moving with a grappled creature"

just like the rule "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action." only applies to bonus action spells because it is in the bonus action subsection

Yes, it does seem I had a disconnect between 'move' and 'speed'.

Thanks.

[Man_Over_Game]

I was the one who originally posted that question.

I also posted an identical question on RPG Stack Exchange for further information. It seems to be pretty conflicted on people's results: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...f-my-speed-the

Most people voted the answer that basically stated "Grapple-moving costs extra movement", but that's not how moving while grappled is written. Additionally, there are instances of other effects in-game that cost twice as much movement, as with Difficult Terrain. In fact, there are multiple instances of movement-impairing effects identical to Difficult Terrain, implying that they work the same way and that they stack.

Grapple-moving is NOT written like this, so we have two different possibilities:

1. Grapple-moving was written poorly, and is ambiguous by mistake (but with no errata or Sage Advice to support this claim)
2. Grapple-moving is written differently than any other instance involved with higher-cost movement, so it has to have a different outcome

Since we can't really claim there was a mistake made without the word of the developers, we can only assume that the difference was intentional, and that the most sensible interpretation is that Grapple-moving has a different outcome than Difficult Terrain.

Since moving half of your speed's worth in real movement would deplete your speed in Difficult Terrain, it's best interpreted that Grapple-moving does NOT do that. Which would mean that releasing your grapple after moving would mean that you retain the remaining 15 feet of speed that you have not yet used.

[Tanarii]

Since moving half of your speed's worth in real movement would deplete your speed in Difficult Terrain, it's best interpreted that Grapple-moving does NOT do that. Which would mean that releasing your grapple after moving would mean that you retain the remaining 15 feet of speed that you have not yet used.

Do you mean grapple-dragging when the PC is moving though difficult terrain? That would limit the PC to moving a distance of 1/4 of their normal/full speed. (Until they let go.)

[Man_Over_Game]

Do you mean grapple-dragging when the PC is moving though difficult terrain? That would limit the PC to moving a distance of 1/4 of their normal/full speed. (Until they let go.)

No, I mean that moving while grappling a creature has no mention that it costs twice as much speed. It only states that your speed is halved (which, to me, interprets MAXIMUM speed capacity in a turn, not your speed-to-movement ratio).

Moving a Grappled Creature.

When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.

Note that this is very different from things that effect your speed-to-movement ratio, like Difficult Terrain:

Difficult Terrain

Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain.

And there are multiple instances of Difficult Terrain's wording in other effects throughout the rules that effect your speed spent vs. real movement ratio. Grappling does not do this, so it's best interpreted that it does something completely different than changing your speed-to-movement ratio.

We assume that "Halving your speed" is a slowing effect, because that's what we naturally think of with the word Speed. But in 5e, Speed is effectively a capacity, a currency, a battery. Halving that does not mean you drain energy twice as fast, but that your maximum capacity is halved. The importance of that comes in when you consider what happens when you get that capacity back.

[Arkhios]

No, I mean that moving while grappling a creature has no mention that it costs twice as much speed. It only states that your speed is halved (which, to me, interprets MAXIMUM speed capacity in a turn, not your speed-to-movement ratio).



Note that this is very different from things that effect your speed-to-movement ratio, like Difficult Terrain:



And there are multiple instances of Difficult Terrain's wording in other effects throughout the rules that effect your speed spent vs. real movement ratio. Grappling does not do this, so it's best interpreted that it does something completely different than changing your speed-to-movement ratio.

Think of the Speed as a damage threshold.

In a normal situation you have a Speed 30. If something halves your speed, you have a Speed of 15 instead, as long as that something remains in effect. Effectively, this means that your maximum is just lower than normal. Nothing is removed permanently. If the effect that halved your Speed is removed, your Speed isn't depleted entirely; it returns to "normal", with the caveat that whatever you have already moved is reduced from the maximum.

Now, think of the movement as damage. Normally, each feet "reduces" your speed per turn by one. 30-1=29, etc.
However, if you move in difficult terrain, when normally you would reduce your speed by one at a time, in difficult terrain you reduce it by two at a time. 30-2=28, etc.

These can be combined:
Let's say you have to get across a 5 ft. wide batch of Difficult Terrain. However, you are also grappling someone.

Because you are grappling, your Maximum speed is only 15 ft. You start at the edge of the Difficult Terrain, so your first 5 ft. of movement is immediately doubled because it's in Difficult Terrain, becoming effectively as if you had moved 10 ft. instead of 5 ft. You still have 5 ft. to move in Normal Terrain.

Now, let's say you decide to stop grappling, leaving the grapplee on the other side of the difficult terrain while you go back.
As soon as you cease grappling, your Maximum speed is again 30 ft. for the remainder of your turn.
However, you have already moved an effective distance of 10 ft. in Difficult Terrain, and 5 ft. in normal terrain, having moved a total of 15 ft. This leaves you 15 ft. to spend from your Maximum 30 ft.
It takes 5 ft. to move in Normal Terrain, and another effective 10 ft. in Difficult Terrain, and you end your turn at the edge of Normal Terrain, standing in the difficult terrain.

[NaughtyTiger]

Your speed is 30. You grapple a creature, it's now 15. You move 15, then let go. Your speed is now 30, and you've still only moved 15, so you're free to move 15 more feet.

Would you apply the same to spiritual guardians?
Spend 15ft in the aura to the exit. Once free you get the rest of your 15ft. You get your full 30ft as though you had no speed reduction at all.

[Man_Over_Game]

Think of the Speed as a damage threshold.

In a normal situation you have a Speed 30. If something halves your speed, you have a Speed of 15 instead, as long as that something remains in effect. Effectively, this means that your maximum is just lower than normal. Nothing is removed permanently. If the effect that halved your Speed is removed, your Speed isn't depleted entirely; it returns to "normal", with the caveat that whatever you have already moved is reduced from the maximum.

Now, think of the movement as damage. Normally, each feet "reduces" your speed per turn by one. 30-1=29, etc.
However, if you move in difficult terrain, when normally you would reduce your speed by one at a time, in difficult terrain you reduce it by two at a time. 30-2=28, etc.

These can be combined:
Let's say you have to get across a 5 ft. wide batch of Difficult Terrain. However, you are also grappling someone.

Because you are grappling, your Maximum speed is only 15 ft. You start at the edge of the Difficult Terrain, so your first 5 ft. of movement is immediately doubled because it's in Difficult Terrain, becoming effectively as if you had moved 10 ft. instead of 5 ft. You still have 5 ft. to move in Normal Terrain.

Now, let's say you decide to stop grappling, leaving the grapplee on the other side of the difficult terrain while you go back.
As soon as you cease grappling, your Maximum speed is again 30 ft. for the remainder of your turn.
However, you have already moved an effective distance of 10 ft. in Difficult Terrain, and 5 ft. in normal terrain, having moved a total of 15 ft. This leaves you 15 ft. to spend from your Maximum 30 ft.
It takes 5 ft. to move in Normal Terrain, and another effective 10 ft. in Difficult Terrain, and you end your turn at the edge of Normal Terrain, standing in the difficult terrain.

Right, I think we're on the same page.

In your example, spending 15 speed (with 5 feet of normal terrain and 5 feet of Difficult Terrain) while grappling, then releasing your grapple, will mean you will have another 15 speed to spend as needed.

[Erys]

Would you apply the same to spiritual guardians?
Spend 15ft in the aura to the exit. Once free you get the rest of your 15ft. You get your full 30ft as though you had no speed reduction at all.

A good follow-up question.