Questions RE:Mad Mage and DMing a premade module

[gagelish]

Hi there,

First off, Johnny, Devin, Tyler, and Emillie, if you're reading this, stop. Love you guys!

Anway, on to my questions.

So, I've been DMing for almost 15 years now, but I've never actually DMed any of the premade modules. When I started playing in high school my first campaign was set in a homebrew campaign, and even as all of the players went on to DM our own campaigns with each other and others it was always in homebrew campaigns of our own. That's just how I learned to play and DM.

For the last few years I've been DMing for and playing with a new group of friends, and for the last year or so we've been running Out of the Abyss. It's been a lot of fun to play and after a multi-year homebrew campaign I needed a break from DMing.

Recently, the group approached me about DMing Dungeon of the Mad Mage. I read the concept and I loved the idea, plus I feel like it's time to get back in the saddle and DM again, but having never used a prewritten module before I had a few questions. If you guys could help me with any or all of them I'd be super appreciative.

1) Should I have read the entire module from start to finish before we start? I'd hate to improvise an answer to one of my player's questions only to have to contradict myself later when further information is revealed, but at the same time 322 pages and 23 different dungeons seems pretty daunting.

2) If it's not necessary that I read through the entire thing ahead of time, how far ahead would you recommend reading? At what point am I getting too far from where the group actually is in the campaign for information to be relevant?

3) How do you spend your time preparing for a session? In a homebrew I spent my time making maps, creating characters, writing adventure hooks, puzzles, and riddles, and writing long descriptions of the places my PC's would travel. Since most of that is now provided for me, what do you guys find is the best way to enter into a session feeling fully prepared? I realize there will be places where I can add my own encounters and put my own stamp on things, but, for instance, how would you approach prepping for the first level of the dungeon?

4) How wary should I be of improvisation? I'm in kind of a weird spot because I have a lot of experience as a DM, but none DMing a prewritten module. Should I just stick to things exactly as written for the first few sessions until I have a feel for things and then slowly start improvising as I begin to feel comfortable?

5) What are your personal tips and tricks when it comes to DMing a prewritten module? What do you wish you'd known starting off? What are some of the common pitfalls, especially for someone coming from a predominantly homebrew experience?

Sorry for the length of my post, I just really wanted to be thorough. Any help or advice you guys could offer would be much appreciated. Thanks everyone!

[Man_Over_Game]

Hi there,

Sorry for the length of my post, I just really wanted to be thorough. Any help or advice you guys could offer would be much appreciated. Thanks everyone!

Great questions!

1)I would say you don't HAVE to read the entire thing. I'd say to stay up to date on about 1/4 of the book at a time, and just making sure to note down the NPCs. Usually, locations in Modules aren't often visited more than a couple times, so you don't usually have to go backwards after something has passed to remind yourself who an NPC is or something.

2) 1/4 of the book at a time, or about 4 sessions in advance. If you know how the next 4 session are supposed to go, you now have 3 options to pull out if the players decide to go off course. DnD dungeon modules are pretty big and cool, and usually don't have some kind of loophole that lets them skip to the end by cheating, so as long as you know the first half of the dungeon, and the surrounding area (if relevant), then you're good to go.

3) This is a toughy. Making unique monsters or items is really interesting, and as long as you don't give anything too powerful or weird (like Flight at level 2 or something), you won't be breaking too much because you decided to make a flashlight ring, or a tentacle ogre thing. Replace enemies with interesting traps, or come up with writings on the wall that have some history of the place that the players might enjoy.

4) Improv is perfectly fine! Make up new encounters, make up new monsters, or maybe just some randomly small encounter with a merchant caravan. These modules do a great job of having a list of possible random events that occur just by wandering around, so there's a lot to come up with. They really do a great job of inspiring inspiration for DMs. Even if you don't make them "truly" random, and you find a "random" event you like, you won't break anything by forcing it to happen. Some of the coolest scenes have nothing to do with the main plot. One of my favorites was when a random wandering event had our caravan trapped by a bunch of spiders in the night, and one of them dragged a few of our horses into their cave. Was pretty spooky stuff, yo.

5) Modules are going to be a bit more railroady than other campaigns, so you need to keep your players on track. This doesn't necessarily mean you have to badly force them back onto the rails, you just gotta provide incentive for them to hop back on. This means you need to throw clues and adventuring hooks left and right. If the players need to be at a specific boat to travel a specific sea, and one of them is lollygagging about and gets arrested, maybe that idiot gets conscripted onto the boat that the players needed to take in the first place. Maybe it's a gold reward, or maybe it's a family friend that's rumored to be on the boat. When one hook isn't enough, throw another. If they aren't biting, then make it clear that the surrounding area just isn't a good place for adventurers (the law takes care of everything here, try across the lake).

[Unoriginal]

I've recently started running pre-made modules as well.

1) Should I have read the entire module from start to finish before we start? I'd hate to improvise an answer to one of my player's questions only to have to contradict myself later when further information is revealed, but at the same time 322 pages and 23 different dungeons seems pretty daunting.

Start with a quick read-through to get the idea of the dungeon and the various areas, if you don't want to read in detail. Then read in detail the parts you're about to run.

2) If it's not necessary that I read through the entire thing ahead of time, how far ahead would you recommend reading? At what point am I getting too far from where the group actually is in the campaign for information to be relevant?

A couple level of the dungeon, maybe?

3) How do you spend your time preparing for a session? In a homebrew I spent my time making maps, creating characters, writing adventure hooks, puzzles, and riddles, and writing long descriptions of the places my PC's would travel. Since most of that is now provided for me, what do you guys find is the best way to enter into a session feeling fully prepared? I realize there will be places where I can add my own encounters and put my own stamp on things, but, for instance, how would you approach prepping for the first level of the dungeon?

Basically, do the same, but rather than coming up with think out of whole cloths, see how you can put your own spins on things. Or remove/add/modify whatever to whichever parts you like.

It's not because it's a pre-made adventure that it's not your adventure.

4) How wary should I be of improvisation? I'm in kind of a weird spot because I have a lot of experience as a DM, but none DMing a prewritten module.

Improvise as much as you like.

Should I just stick to things exactly as written for the first few sessions until I have a feel for things and then slowly start improvising as I begin to feel comfortable?

Well, you shouldn't do what you're not comfortable with. But don't try to stop yourself from improvising if you want to improvise, and don't force yourself to improvise if you don't want to.

5) What are your personal tips and tricks when it comes to DMing a prewritten module? What do you wish you'd known starting off? What are some of the common pitfalls, especially for someone coming from a predominantly homebrew experience?

Don't worry too much. As I said, it's still your adventure, and the players', ultimately. And there will be no Dungeon of the Mad Mage like gagelish's Dungeon of the Mad Mage.

Don't get nervous if you want to introduce something you've done yourself, but don't feel obligated to correct stuff if you forget what you planned. For example, the other day I forgot to introduce one of the NPCs I had written when the PCs showed in the area I put the NPC's business, but it's not a problem, I can put it elsewhere.

Do what's appropriate for your and your group. Myself I have no problem with lvl 1 players running into an hungry troll, but it might not be your playstyle, and if the adventure module tells you something and you think something else, then you're the one who decides. Always.

[djreynolds]

Read through Dragon heist, there are bad guys in there.

Often I find if you cannot lead a horse to water, you can push it.

Have something there to kick in tempo when needed.

In OotA, if the party was spending too much time doing whatever, because usually they've become relaxed because their safe and can finally take a breather, you had the drow chasing them.

In Dragon heist there are great NPCs, so if the party is sitting around counting coins and talking about buying a flying ship, you basically strong arm.

Your players and their characters need breaks... But no vacations. They don't need to be overwhelmed, but should invested in the adventure

Have them understand they are not the only crew down there, and certainly not the most powerful.

Give players moments to shine, as individuals and as a group.

It's gonna be great. Best thing about this is players can leave the dungeon. You job is to make them need or want to go back there.

It gonna be a blast DMing this. My players are just starting.

Invest in large sheets of graph paper and draw it out before hand. Draw out a section and even let the players take over

[gagelish]

Thanks so much for all of your help and encouragement so far. As I've read through your responses, it led me to another question that I'd love to get some input on.

I'm wondering if you guys might have any insight into how to get my players emotionally invested in the campaign in a way that they would be with a homebrew campaign that I've written explicitly with them in mind.

The thing about this particular module, at least from how much I've read so far, is that their isn't a really cohesive overarching story. As written it's basically: A powerful mage and a number of his apprentices slowly go insane as they descend further and further underground crafting more dangerous traps and dungeons as they go. It's mostly just an excuse to have 23 consecutive, but varying, dungeons. It even tells you that you can roll a d6 to come up with the Mad Mage's motives or just make one up on your own, it doesn't really matter.

That said, in the breakdown of the various levels there are different factions that have moved in and have relationships with one another and with the dungeons overlords.

I'd like to try to weave a kind of central through line into the story that connects the factions and the Mad Mage and his apprentices while engaging each of my PC's in a way that's character appropriate, but I'm not sure how to do that effectively without basically reading the entire module cover to cover again and again until I'm familiar enough with the campaign that I can find ways to knit the disparate parts together.

Any thoughts or advice on the best way to approach trying to engage my players/create an overarching narrative without having to read ~1200 pages?

[djreynolds]

I start big time tomorrow.

For me it's going to be tough, because we meet once a week for 3 hours. So we probably play 1 hour.

I can't see completing even 1 level of the dungeon in 3 hours. Could take 6 months?

I like that they can leave. Tomb of horrors felt like a suicide mission.

I might allow players to have multiple characters. And not just because of death, but possibly boredom.

They are going 15 levels through basically a dungeon. I don't want someone at 7th level realizing they hate playing this or that class. Why not allow him to switch out, or even back and forth?

I actually asking your advice on how to handle leaving the dungeon:
Handwave,
or a chance for more experience,
More loot,
Missed passages.

And what do you think of multiple characters to switch out?

15 levels is a lot

[gagelish]

I start big time tomorrow.

For me it's going to be tough, because we meet once a week for 3 hours. So we probably play 1 hour.

I can't see completing even 1 level of the dungeon in 3 hours. Could take 6 months?

I like that they can leave. Tomb of horrors felt like a suicide mission.

I might allow players to have multiple characters. And not just because of death, but possibly boredom.

They are going 15 levels through basically a dungeon. I don't want someone at 7th level realizing they hate playing this or that class. Why not allow him to switch out, or even back and forth?

I actually asking your advice on how to handle leaving the dungeon:
Handwave,
or a chance for more experience,
More loot,
Missed passages.

And what do you think of multiple characters to switch out?

15 levels is a lot

Hey there, not sure I completely followed all the questions you were asking, but I'll try to do my best.

I think, if you're meeting once a week for three hours you should try to get as much play time into that 3 hours as possible. I think we can all relate to how easy it is to get together and you want to catch up and people are settling in, or running late, or getting drinks/snacks. For my group we try to at least start our recap of the last session no later than 30 minutes past the planned start time, and usually the recap is a fun way to transition from socializing (because everyone chimes in with their favorite moments from the last session) to focusing on the session at hand.

It might just be me and my group, but I can't see us accomplishing much of anything in an hour of play time and then you just get kind of stuck in a loop where not much happens but people getting ready for whatever they're planning to do next, the session ends, then the next session they get ready for what they're planning to do next, rinse & repeat. I think if you can consistently get in two hours of playtime a week you'll get through that first level pretty quickly.

As far as people getting bored/being able to play multiple characters... I think every group is different so that one is a little trickier to give advice on. I wouldn't outright tell people you were considering letting them all roll up multiple characters. I think you want to give your players as many reasons ass possible to invest in their characters, and knowing that they've got two other characters they can play might inhibit that/prevent them finding their character's voice because in the back of their head they're not fully committed. I would also worry that player's might take advantage of that and roll up a set of characters that is optimal for every kind of encounter and then pull that character out whenever it's going to kick the most ass because, "They're bored of the character they played last week." I think part of what makes D&D fun is finding ways to thrive under circumstances that aren't perfectly suited to your character/class.

That said, if someone gets to level 7 and realizes they're bored/don't like their class I would absolutely try to work with them on fixing that. Whether that means retconning their subclass, changing their spells known, or even just straight up rolling a new character, I want my players to be excited to play their character every single session and I would do my best to make sure that was the case. I would just try to encourage completely ditching a character to be the exception rather than the rule.

As far as missed passages, this dungeon is absolutely massive. There's no way a party is going to explore every single chamber. If there is something super critical in a chamber that they pass over and you're confident there's no chance they'll be back, I'd just make whatever that thing is appear in an upcoming chamber they do enter.

Anyway, hope that advice was helpful. Cheers, and good luck!

[djreynolds]

Will be excited to exchange notes.
My party will be 6... Maybe an occasional 7

I've told them I out for blood. I rolled a standard array for table. Solid rolls.

We play from 6 to 9, should get at least 2 really solid hours in that time frame. Players are adults.

Have made some changes to the ranger class, seems I do this every campaign, it's a popular class.

The crazy thing, there are no optimizers. I'll see tonight the builds as we start.

Perhaps a level a week could be achieved.

It's the positive a premade adventure, it all there 90%.

I'll need to invest in more large graph paper.

[Bel-Torac]

I'm dming DMM at a FLGS right now and it's going well. Dungeon Crawling can be very tedious especially if there are lots of rooms. I use Adventurers League rules to level up so I make sure to get through the rooms quickly. My players know what they are doing so battles go fast unless they are boss fights. The adventure will take as long as it takes players to get through combat or if they spend time RPing when they meet people or interact with rooms. The encounters are designed to slowly drain their resources before a big boss fight. Make sure to keep a note of potential deadly encounters and give them some foresight to prepare for those.

A larger group will get through faster and a smaller group will take longer based on the encounters.

I usually read an entire level in advance to get the gist of what my players will encounter. I enter the combat into my combat app on my phone to get through combat quickly.

Each level is designed to be completed in 1-2 sessions so I put the map down of the level and ask my players what number they want to go to on the map. Once they tell me I read what the room looks like, any objects of interest, and enemies or people they might find in the room (doesn't take long, most rooms are almost empty). They either open objects, make perception/investigation checks, interact with combat, or talk to people before moving on. My games are usually 3 to 3 and 1/2 hours long per night on a weeknight.

The way I do it if they want to leave the dungeon is that if they killed their way through they can climb back up easily (for time purposes, too many meaningless random encounters make it a drag since there already is a ton in there). When they are higher levels, I'll read the update based on their actions at the end of every level.

Right now my group just hit the 3rd level after 4 sessions.

[darknite]

Of course read it over. But in the end make it yours. Odds are better than you think that one or more of your players has already read it, so get in under the hood and change it. Make new encounters, change the map a bit here and there, rewrite important NPCs so that their motivations are in line with how you want to run the dungeon.

I usually do a recap writeup for each of my sessions then do a one-pager to cover what I think might happen in the next game based on how things are going. If players are having fun with a given NPC, give that more play time. Toss in encounters you think leverages your group's interests/strengths/weaknesses and moves the story in a direction you want.

Above all do not become a slave to the HC. It's your game and the HC is just a template to help you with the setting.

[gagelish]

Each level is designed to be completed in 1-2 sessions so I put the map down of the level and ask my players what number they want to go to on the map.

Do you let them see the entire map for every level of the dungeon? Does it ever kind of ruin the surprise of certain things since they can see ahead of time where the big rooms or rooms full of statues or trap doors are?

I'm going to be playing over roll20, and as of right now I have it set so that each level starts completely shrouded and areas will only be revealed as they traverse the dungeon. I know that'll probably lead to things going a little more slowly, but for something so dungeon crawler focused I think it's worth it to have that sense of exploration/surprise/discovery.

[Bel-Torac]

Do you let them see the entire map for every level of the dungeon? Does it ever kind of ruin the surprise of certain things since they can see ahead of time where the big rooms or rooms full of statues or trap doors are?

I'm going to be playing over roll20, and as of right now I have it set so that each level starts completely shrouded and areas will only be revealed as they traverse the dungeon. I know that'll probably lead to things going a little more slowly, but for something so dungeon crawler focused I think it's worth it to have that sense of exploration/surprise/discovery.

Not all big rooms have major encounters so it doesn't worry me much. Traps and secret doors showing do ruin it a little, but this hardcover doesn't have that many secret rooms or visible traps that make a big difference to cover it up. I thought about using post it's to cover up in the map, but felt it wasn't too much of a big deal to do so.

Most of the surprises happen when players interact with objects in the room that aren't visible on the map.