I'm surrounded by idiots!

[HappyDaze]

Optimization is a thing in 5e D&D. I get it. As part of that optimization, there are going to be dump stats. I get that too. Not all dump stats are going to be equal, and that's starting to bug me...

I'm looking at running a Ravnica-based game where there is going to be a lot of intrigue and politics along with the killing and robbing.

But...

The five PCs all have Intelligence scores of 8. Naturally, there's not a Wizard among them, but they have a Cleric, a Paladin, a Sorcerer, a Rogue, and a Fighter. They can probably do just fine in the combat areas, but they have woefully little in the knowledge type skills and all of them are of below average intellect. I don't think that this is all that unusual in a typical campaign for dungeon-delvers, but I have to wonder if this is just a sign that I should not bother too much with the intrigue and politics side I had planned.

[Cerefel]

Did you tell your players in advance that it was going to be an intrigue/politics focused game rather than a combat focused one?

[jdolch]

I would talk to them about the nature of the campaign and give them a little preview of things to come. I bet at least some of them will switch priorities when they learn that this is gonna be a political campaign. On the other hand you might have a riot on your hands if the players all want to go full murder hobo, but that is something that you should know and talk about before the campaign starts as well.

The Problem probably isn't even the low INT scores. My guess is that the Characters aren't build for a political Intrigue Campaign. Intelligence is really useless for most Characters, but they will probably need a Social Engineer/Face, a very good Thief, maybe a Skilled Assassin, a "Think Tank" Character (this would probably be a high INT Wizard) and some muscle that are not crude Berserker Barbarians, but rather cunning Fighter Types that can go into the Palace as a Bodyguard etc. (The Combat part of this whole team can really be accomplished by many classes though)

[Mjolnirbear]

From my understanding, 8 is just slightly lower than average IQ. If my understanding is correct, then they are not idiots. {Scrubbed}
I dislike that Intelligence serves no useful purpose unless you are a wizard. I've tried a few things, but at the moment in my games you get a free tool proficiency for every positive bonus.

[LichPlease]

It could end up being really fun and silly like a comedic mystery where the PCs are completely clueless as to what is going on but somehow manage to put the pieces together or at least accidentally help. Think The Big Lebowski or Dumb and Dumber.

[Kane0]

Or they get led around by the nose by all the smarter NPCs until someone slips up

[lunaticfringe]

So they aren't book smart and probably won't be disarming an Izzet doomsday device anytime soon. Doesn't mean they're drooling idiots that need to wear velcro.

Also the stereotype is most politicians were poor to mediocre students so that shouldn't hold them back.

[Lunali]

Low int chars can still be devious and manipulative, they're just lacking in education.

[Unoriginal]

I dislike that Intelligence serves no useful purpose unless you are a wizard.

"Being able to recall info and discovering secret stuff isn't useful."

Low int chars can still be devious and manipulative, they're just lacking in education.

And are bad at investigating.

So they aren't book smart and probably won't be disarming an Izzet doomsday device anytime soon. Doesn't mean they're drooling idiots that need to wear velcro.

8 INT is the lower end of the average curve. So this is true.


Doesn't mean the geniuses won't run circles around them

[Drakkoniss]

It is indeed reasonable to ask whether or not you have communicated to your players the nature of the campaign you intend to run. The setting itself should set off some alarm bells, if any of them have a wider knowledge of Wizards of the Coast's properties.

That said: one should additionally question whether or not they have other mental statistics. Wisdom and Charisma will be equally important in this sort of campaign, and honestly... in Ravnica, not all guilds have an affinity for those of a more refined cognitive capacity, if you get my drift. The campaign could go any number of ways, depending on who the party chooses to side with, and what madness will naturally ensue with the complexity of that world throwing around spanners every way as if they actually had no interest in the gears grinding away properly at all (though I exaggerate).

My advice is this: Ensure that your players know what they are getting into, and be willing to share quite a bit about the lore of the plane they have found themselves in, especially if they are not travelers from another realm. Furthermore, be willing to compromise your own plans with whatever hijinks they decide to pursue. Like in war, initial plans in a D&D campaign never survive completely intact, outside the drawing room.

[Gastronomie]

This is more something of an issue with 5e itself rather than with your players. If no one wants to play a wizard at an optimized table, almost no one will ever try to be smart (apart from maybe Arcane Tricksters, but that's it. EKs have no need for INT really).

One way could be to allow using other stats for rolling skills. If you're in the middle of a city and it's not during combat, maybe you can roll Arcana using CHA, the fluff for it being that you're politely asking someone smarter than you what he knows about the problem.

[HappyDaze]

"Being able to recall info and discovering secret stuff isn't useful."



And are bad at investigating.



8 INT is the lower end of the average curve. So this is true.


Doesn't mean the geniuses won't run circles around them

I'm very aware that Int 8 is only "low-average" but it is also as low as Standard Array PCs can go. The think that bugs me is that all of them chose to dump the same stat.

I did make the "combat won't be everything" point very clear, but they don't seem too concerned. They "know" that failed knowledge (Arcana, History, Nature, and Religion) checks "shouldn't block success" the way losses in combat can. In effect, it's metagaming character creation. The point about not recalling information and being bad at investigating (and Investigation) are going to hurt... unless I change my plans and go away from such themes in the campaign.

[Kane0]

DMG Honor

[HappyDaze]

DMG Honor

Can you explain what you mean?

[Kane0]

An alternative method of navigating tricky social situations. Intellect is only one method of interaction, you can also rely on intuition (wisdom), presence (charisma) and/or reputation (honor).

[Corran]

Low int chars can still be devious and manipulative, they're just lacking in education.

+1. I'd be more worried if everyone turned up with low wisdom or charisma or if there was a severe lack in proficiency of social skills. Knowledge skills and (INT-based) investigation can sometimes be circumvented by just asking the right people. It will hurt not having access (if your require of them proficiency in order to allow them to roll) or at least a good bonus to such skills for sure, but it's not the end of the world. That said, I am annoyed too, though about how little incentive the game gives you to invest in intelligence.

[HappyDaze]

An alternative method of navigating tricky social situations. Intellect is only one method of interaction, you can also rely on intuition (wisdom), presence (charisma) and/or reputation (honor).

Well all of those were already going to be used, so that makes for a table resting on four legs. Unfortunately, everybody skimped on the same leg. Any weight on that corner of the table and it might all turn over.

[Kane0]

That just makes it more interesting! There's no drama in perfection.

[Psikerlord]

Such are the evils of point buy. If you get your players roll for stats, you will see more variations in "dump" stats. Of course fixing Int so that it isnt a dump stat in the first place would also help. I like to say anyone with a -ve Int mod never learnt to read or write, for example, and is limited to their language and a smattering of common.

[HappyDaze]

Such are the evils of point buy. If you get your players roll for stats, you will see more variations in "dump" stats.

Went with Standard Array only (no Point Buy) to prevent multiple dump stats. I don't mind dump stats, but I do wish the group had spread them out a little rather than everyone dumping Intelligence. I was a little surprised as I've often seen Strength used as the other dump stat, but even the Sorcerer went with Strength 10 and Intelligence 8 (and he doesn't have proficiency in the Arcana skill) and the Rogue did the same.

[Laserlight]

they have woefully little in the knowledge type skills...the intrigue and politics side I had planned.

If you told me "intrigue and politics", I'd pick up Deception, Persuasion, Insight, Investigation, maybe Perception, Performance, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Intimidation...none of which are INT based.

(edit: Investigation IS based on INT. I was wondering if anyone would notice...)

I'd like someone in the party to have Arcana and History, true. Did the party design their characters separately?

[HappyDaze]

If you told me "intrigue and politics", I'd pick up Deception, Persuasion, Insight, Investigation, maybe Perception, Performance, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Intimidation...none of which are INT based.

I'd like someone in the party to have Arcana and History, true. Did the party design their characters separately?

Everyone was together for character creation except the guy that made the Half-Elf Paladin (plan is Oath of Redemption) from the Selesnya Conclave. He's got Nature... one of the few Int-based skills in the party, but he also has Int 8 (of course).

[Misterwhisper]

The problem is lore skills and dming.

Investigation could be a key skill, or like most tables I see, they just roll perception for it anyway, or the players who are much smarter than their characters figure it out.

However, all lore skills are usually seen as optional because if you were supposed to know you will find out some way, if you weren’t then it doesn’t matter.

I usually see str as a dump stat but int is no more than 12 around where I play.

The issue with bound accuracy and lore skills is that well usually everyone rolls for lore skills and when you have 5 people rolling someone is going to get a good roll. Lore skills are a group skill only one person has to succeed really. Most other skills are needed individually.

They should have never gotten rid of skill points.

[HappyDaze]

However, all lore skills are usually seen as optional because if you were supposed to know you will find out some way, if you weren’t then it doesn’t matter.

Is it OK to subvert this? If they are "supposed to know" but don't get there, then they end up having a much harder time than they otherwise would? This could include things like not recognizing threats for what they are and stepping into fights they have a low chance of winning (or even surviving), not recognizing what's actually going on and going after red herrings (which could lead back to the previous issue), or wasting time trying to figure out what more intelligent and educated people would have known and the excess time compromising their chances of success (note that many adventures I have in mind will have a 'ticking clock' intended to keep the challenge level up and to prevent frequent long rests).

[Mr.Spastic]

It sound like you want to run a type a game and your platers aren't interested in that type. You can't really "fix" this problem from a gameplay side. Your players all dumped intelligence because they probably don't want to play a game that requires their characters to have a lot of int.

Also, the term politics might have been interpreted as a more insight and deception rather than investigation. If the only thing they will miss out on is investigation, then it might not be that bad. Unless it is entirely reliant on investigation and then your screwed.

Side note: I'm not going to fully encourage this but if you gave them warnings about low int, you can always force them to play with that low int. Say a player figures out the deduces the plot because the player is smart. You can always tell them that they can't act on their knowledge because their character would not know. It can be a bit harsh but it stops a lot metagaming. For example, say you have monsters that are weak to fire. The player knows that but their character with the 8 int who never ran across the monster before might have to roll a high DC nature check.

[lunaticfringe]

Is it OK to subvert this? If they are "supposed to know" but don't get there, then they end up having a much harder time than they otherwise would? This could include things like not recognizing threats for what they are and stepping into fights they have a low chance of winning (or even surviving), not recognizing what's actually going on and going after red herrings (which could lead back to the previous issue), or wasting time trying to figure out what more intelligent and educated people would have known and the excess time compromising their chances of success (note that many adventures I have in mind will have a 'ticking clock' intended to keep the challenge level up and to prevent frequent long rests).

Seems likes a poor time to try seeing as how everyone dumped Int. Have you played with these people? How did it work then? Why would it change other than you are salty about how your players built their characters?

[Misterwhisper]

Is it OK to subvert this? If they are "supposed to know" but don't get there, then they end up having a much harder time than they otherwise would? This could include things like not recognizing threats for what they are and stepping into fights they have a low chance of winning (or even surviving), not recognizing what's actually going on and going after red herrings (which could lead back to the previous issue), or wasting time trying to figure out what more intelligent and educated people would have known and the excess time compromising their chances of success (note that many adventures I have in mind will have a 'ticking clock' intended to keep the challenge level up and to prevent frequent long rests).

Many players see that along the lines of, “well if the dm wants to kill his game, sure go ahead.

Happened to me when I was dming a game with a rogue, bard, barbarian, warlock and fighter.

Somehow still not an int over ten and not a single lore skills.

The group was in a town that was very creepy and cultish bit nobody could roll for crap on religion to notice the subtle symbols of worship here and there.

They went to the library to research it and when I asked for investigation rolls the group whined that it should be perception. I pointed out they are researching and looking for the right book, it is investigation.

Their response was, (I say their but really it was just the main egomaniac minmaxer, but the others jumped on the bandwagon) “well, screw this then, it is usually either the mayor or the priest, lets go interrogate the priest first, we can cover that up easier.”

Note, it was not even close to the correct targets, all the farmers made a deal with a dark nature spirit for good crops but in return they all worshiped her and paid tribute with the blood of an unbeliever every month.

Game died about an hour later after the group were essentially lynched, they were level 4 but 300 pissed off townsfolk kind of win that scuffle.

Town got justice, sort of, and the cultists subtly got their sacrifice handled and some extra brownie points to their patron.

[Stygofthedump]

i read a thread on using intelligence for initiative instead of dex, solving more than one issue. Probably over powering wizards sadly.

[Malifice]

Here is a HR I have been thinking about IMG.

Firstly a quick discussion of the rules, and in particular, of 2 skills (one of which is the most used skill in the game, and the second of which is the least used skill in the game):

Assumption 1: Perception is the skill used to notice something. It does not (in and of itself) provide any information or deduction with respect of what you observed, smelt, heard, noticed or percieved.

Assumption 2: Investigation is the skill used to deduce correct information gleaned (from something observed, percieved or noticed with Perception).

In other words it's a Wisdom [Perception] check to notice a set of tracks in the dust that are snaking around a hallway in front of you, however it is then an Intelligence [Investigation] check to deduce from this observaton, that this means the person making those tracks was intentionally avoiding certain areas of the hallway, likely because there is something concealed there (such as a pit).

Wisdom [Perception] only provides the information. Intelligence [Investigation] deduces what that information means. One is useless without the other; information on its own does nothing, unless you can also interpret what that information means.

So far so good.

So while a Perceptive individual might notice a smell, sound, sight or thing, they simply might not understand what it means. They might notice the tracks sneaking around the concealed pit, or notice that the flagstones in front of them in the hallway are a slightly different shape or color, but not be able to 'put 2 and 2 together' and realise this means something of note.

The problem is that DMs will declare the observed thing to the Player, [who then uses his own deduction skills to figure out what that information means, and not use the deduction skills of his character, even when he is playing a complete idiot who would struggle to put 2 and 2 together.

Solution:

Instead of Perception DCs for passive perception for traps and hidden things and creatures, all DCs intead become Deduction DCs, compared against the lower of both Passive Perception to first notice the thing (and provide information), and also Passive Investigation to interpret and reason that observation of the thing (the information) into something useable.

If your passive Investigate or Perception doesnt hit the mark, you either dont notice the threat (Perception), or you do notice it, but ignore/ dont register/ fail to understand or interpret the information (Investigation) or both (and in any event fail to get any information). The end result is the same. It fails to register; you either noticed it but discounted it, or you didnt notice it at all.

For example, presume a Pit with a 'Deduction DC 13' is approached by Harry the perceptive idiot (Wisdom 14, Perception skill bonus +5, Passive Perception 15, however Int 8, no Investigate skill, Passive Investigation 7).

DM: 'You noticed the flagstones looked a different color (Perception DC 13, PC's Passive Perception is 15) but your PC is such an idiot (Passive Investigation 7 due to no skill and Int of 8) your character failed to deduce this meant 'danger; probable pit trap here, avoid' and thus you stumbled straight over it.'

TL;DR - Passive Perception is now called Passive Deduction, and is set at (the lower of your Investigate or Perception skill bonus) +10. When a PC makes a check to notice something or someone hidden, the DM calls for a check of the lower of the two skills (Perception or Investigation), unless only one skill would be clearly relevant , such as when the PC has already noticed something obvious, and is trying to figure out what that means (Investigate), or they havent yet noticed the thing, but it would be blindingly obvious what it is/ does if they did so (Perception).

Basically perceptive people who are also idiots stumble into traps and (despite the blindingly obvious) miss important clues. Geniuses who put Sherlock Holmes to shame, need to notive the clues first, before they can interpret those clues and figure out what they mean. It's a two step process.

[ad_hoc]

Are they actually optimized if they are going to have a hard time ?

Group think is a thing.

In a group I just started up with 5 PCs there was only 1 character with an Int below 12.