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Thread: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
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2007-09-22, 02:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Who Cares About Mary Sue?
I recently came across this article, and I want to see what other people think about it and the points it makes.
Originally Posted by Aestheticism.com
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2007-09-22, 02:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Honestly all I got out of it is that I feel a little bit better about the weird crap that goes on in my head....
'Sept for the one comic I'm trying to write. That stills scares the hell out of me...Avatar by Shades of Gray
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2007-09-22, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Well, what do you think about it and the points it makes? I'm not tellin' until you do. Just because.
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2007-09-22, 09:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Well, the article makes some interesting points, but I'm not sure if I agree with the part about the problem with MS being the reader's problem. If you watch a movie and it's badly written and terribly acted, you don't say, "I didn't like it, but I'm sure that's my fault, not the writers'/actors'." You say, "Man, what an awful movie," and maybe even post about it on a message board/review site.
That being said, I do think some of the anti-MSers take it too far, but a large portion of them are legitimately trying to improve the author's writing. Yes, they're based on the author's fantasies, but if they want to keep writing in the future, their work is going to have to improve. It's like being a newborn. Sure, there's no shame in crawling; everyone does it, but ultimately, people are going to try to teach you how to walk.
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2007-09-22, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
I think the author makes wrong assumptions considering why people dislike Mary Sue characters. Neither the point about people being embarassed by a self-insertion character (which I did not even understand - what is embarassing about that?) nor the point about Mary Sues taking away time from the "main characters" has anything to do with what I would critique about a Mary Sue.
What I would critique about a Mary Sue is that the character tends to be one-dimensional (that dimension being perfection - there are no flaws), that the character generally is a shining beacon of morality (which is bad if the morality itself is right, because it destroys the possibility of an interesting , two-sided evaluation of the moral issues in question, and much worse if the morality is questionable), and that the character is often a walking Deus-Ex-Machina, able to pull out solutions to any problem out of nowhere without any struggle, which makes for boring stories. These three points seemingly didn't even occur to the author.LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2007-09-22, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Winterwind said it better than I ever could. I don't hate authorial wish fulfillment or narrative self-insertion (heck, I enjoy Bernard Cornwell and I like Dickens and Thackery too): what I hate is poor technical execution.
Quoted article makes the point "it's normal, coz the Japanese do it."
Normal? The Japanese? One of the most infantilised, openly fetishistic cultures on the planet is normal in her head? Did I miss something here?
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2007-09-22, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Hurray! I'm not wierd, I'm Japanese!
Seriously, I've come up with about ten different versions of myself to fit into different fiction universes (And even a few of my own design.) For example:
A cyborg that was supposed to be the Navy SEAL to Robocop's police officer.
(For the Robocop universe)
A werewolf ( for a hombrewed modern fantasy game of round robin, though the concept existed long before that.)
A super hero with the power to control thermal energy, dubbed Heat Wave.
(Originally for the Static Shock/DC universe, later broke off into its own universe.)Before you ask, I didn't know what it meant when I put it in my username. Do NOT ask.
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2007-09-22, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Winterwind has summed up my thoughts on Mary Sue type characters fairly well. Also in my case, I can't stand fanfiction in general, Mary Sues or not, because the characters act in a manner skewed by the perceptions of a different writer. It's like watching a friend get murdered, then having his corpse forced to dance around on puppet strings. But I have no objection to people writing fanfiction, I just object to me reading any of it. If you have fun with it, more power to you, but don't be offended if people gag when reading it.
A few other thoughts on the subject of gratiutous content. While there are certainly many good examples of "adolescent power fantasies" in manga, the Japanese hardly hold exclusive rights to it. The superhero genre predates japanese cartoons as such a source, even if the superheroes nowdays serve different functions. Pre-CCA American comics had their fair share of gratuitous content, although not so much by today's standards, and certainly not if you're going to compare it with some of the Japanese comics made today.
I think that saying the reader is at fault for not liking what he's reading is a gross oversimplification, and is mostly a way for the writer to avoid admitting that the content is either only has personal significance, or really is flat out bad writing. There's nothing wrong with writing for yourself, but if you also want a receptive audience, you also need to think about the feelings of the readers when you write.
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2007-09-22, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
When I was 9 I was a wizard closely resembling Belgarion.
If people don't like them, they shouldn't read them.
All powerful characters are boring.
I'm not against the character changing and self-actualizing towards his own potential, but I expect him to suffer for it (See: Count of Monte Cristo)
Another point I disagree with is the placing of blame on the reader rather than the author if the reader doesn't like the work. This just stinks of bleeding-heartism and the trend of putting on kid-gloves when dealing with art. (See: Most high-school creative writing classes)
Look at this poem I wrote, it came right from my inner-soul.
I gave my love dead roses,
B'cause they stunketh like herses.
I gave my love ten bruises,
b'cause thar blue like her muses.
This is my form of art, if you don't like it. It's your fault, not mine... Despite the fact that I put no effort into it and made it up on the spot. I'm the Pollock of poetry. I throw down random words that feel right.
In conclusion: If you write fan fiction with a MS and I don’t like it. It’s your fault for not writing for an audience who respects “higher forms” (I’m such an elitist ***-**** I know) of art. I would have probably liked your MS character when I was 9 and still a wizard.Praise Caine! Hail Sabbat!
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2007-09-22, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
(Just as Jean Genet's Our Lady of the Flowers demonstrates to my perfect satisfaction that jerk-off fantasies, however much fun they are for the person jerking off, do not constitute literature.)
Okay. That just completely invalidates any point she ever could have made about literature, right there. Bitch don't know what she's talking about.
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2007-09-22, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Right from the start, I took particular offense at the tone s/he adopts. It's such a holier-than-thou tone, as if talking down to ignorant children from an ivory pedestal. Nonetheless, I persevered through the article, and.. suffice to say the content was not much better than the style.
I have no damn idea what the author is trying to say. In his/her youth, s/he wrote a something which was campy. Then she goes on to say that it seems childish. And then she goes to Japan and finds shoujo manga. And wow! It's campy!
After 4 long paragraphs of description, she finally starts on the meat.
"People say Mary Sues are author-avatars. I do not care."
"People say Mary Sues detract from the orginal series characters. I do not care."
"If people don't like Mary Sues, that's their problem."
...
The kind of stuff this author writes is reminiscent of the slashers that she herself criticized.
I personally read a fair amount of fanfiction, and find it interesting. I have nothing personal against Sue-like characters, unless they're badly written. I've seen awesome fanfics featuring an obvious Mary Sue, but they were still awesome because the Sue was a well-developed character in her own right. Whether I like or not like a character has NOTHING to do with any of the reasons the author cited. It has instead to do with the simple expedience of whether the character is a good character. You can have Bob McNub, supernoob of noobness, a complete and total simpleton, and he still can be a badly written character. You can have Buffy McSuSue, insanely beautiful, powerful and popular half-fey vampire, but she still can be a well-written character.
I like well-written characters, just as I detest badly written characters. Sue status is immaterial.Last edited by Artemician; 2007-09-22 at 12:34 PM.
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2007-09-22, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
I remember criticizing some poorly-written, terribly-executed movie some years back, and explaining to my friend, a fan of it, why it wasn't any good. To which he, of course, replied, "It's art, man. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad.
No. I know what art is and what it isn't. Immersing myself in all the centuries' greatest literature and cinema (Just finished Heart of Darkness... My God...) has, if nothing else, given me a pretty keen eye for things, and the 'it's art, man' is pretty much a criticially flawed, but totally unassailable cop-out for someone who knows in their heart that your criticism is otherwise irrefutable.
To say that we actually feel embarrassed for ourselves when we feel embarassed for someone who unleashed a Mary Sue is like saying we pity ourselves when we see someone touch a hot stovelid. Indeed, we probably feel a little embarrassed if we, as a child, touched a hot stovelid. But the fact that we probably haven't done so in a while makes it pretty moot, and if that person habitually touches hot stovelids, then do we really feel sorry for ourselves due to our one instance of doing it quite by accident? Or do we feel pity (and more than a little contempt) for this misled idiot, who clearly gleans enjoyment from something he knows to be a pointless, destructive act?
Likewise, if you, as a young author, created a Mary Sue, and later realized that to do so is not conducive to good storytelling, you would stop doing so. And if you saw someone who wrote lots of fanfiction (a sad occurence on its own) continually and purposefully using Mary Sues, admittedly for self-indulgent purposes, is that still really pity and embarrasment for yourself that you're feeling?
I began writing a Mary Sue into a story once. I didn't realize I was. I caught it, trashed her, and rewrote her to be something good. Turned out to be one of my best. Which is not to say that a Mary Sue cannot be a good literary device; it's dependent upon the purpose. Think back into Heart of Darkness: Remember the native girl in Part III? The one who was simply above everything? She's a superlative Mary Sue, but she isn't a self-indulgence or anything of the traditional Mary Sue sort; she's far, far more important. But why the dichotomy? Because Joseph Conrad is a genius, and HOD is, truly and rightfully, art. The Natural, in which a Mary Sue takes the role of embodied Good along the path of Roy's internal struggle, is art. The fanfic in which you put yourelf into the story to have sex with Ichido is not.
Showing your psyche is much different from letting your psyche run wild. If I were to write a story in which a character must come to terms with his inner bloodlust, that's showing my psyche. If i write a story where I, with a different name and about 100 lbs more muscle, run arounf with a Buster Sword and kill all the people I don't like from work, that's letting my psyche run wild. It's shameful. It isn't a defensible action, and wasting your time defending it is not out of any greater understanding of its purpose, but perhaps from a need to defend it for yourself, since you have a thar-but-fer-the-glaze-of-Cod moment when you see it, and can't handle the fact that you may be wrong; therefore, changing the wrongous nature of the action is much easier for you than changing your opinion, which might lead to admitting a fault. (Doesn't feel so great to have that done, eh?)
Saying that the reader simply doesn't get, or is not worthy of, the work presented to him is tantamount to saying that all writing is inherently perfect, and your opinion of it is derived solely from how perfectly you interpret it. In other words, 'It's art, man.' You seem like someone who knows slightly more about psychology than you do about literature, about which you don't know the first damned thing. Your cocksureness speaks volumes. I would advise you to, instead of psychoanalyzing the author, to merely read the damned story. Learning the author's purposed through a meaningful reading of his literature is not the same as figuring out that his symbolism might be his subconscious homosexuality coming out.
But if you can't bring yourself to do this (as this might acknowledge a failure in yourself that needs correction), by all means keep doing what you're doing. After all, literature is art, man; it's not for every reader.Glorious Chaiman Kaga avatar by the impeccable Kalirush!
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2007-09-22, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
*can't think of anything to add to what everyone else has already said*
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2007-09-22, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Last edited by Tengu; 2007-09-22 at 02:45 PM.
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2007-09-22, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-09-22, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Wikipedia (I know, not the most safe source, but still) states otherwise, and actually has a picture of identical triplets as illustration attached to the article in question.
It is supposedly very rare, though.LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2007-09-22, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
She makes some interesting points, but she gets to them from some pretty weird, fairly questionable assumptions. "Everyone here has taken Psych 100"? Not if here for her is here for me, they haven't and, in any case, taking Psych 100 does not equate to understanding the human psyche as relates to authorial self-insertion. "It's normal because the Japanese do it?" You can't take the social norms of one culture and attemt to apply them to anothers.
Personally, I like some Mary Sues, even some of the ones who come across as being the be all and end all of the world's they inhabit. I don't tend to read fan-fiction, so I'm not sure how I'd react to seeing a fan writer insert themselves into a fictional universe, but lord knows I used to do that when we'd play Power Rangers or Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles or whatever when we were kids (usually in the form of the 'mask' version she discusses, but still). Seems perfectly natural to me, and I don't think the presence or absence of such a character will make or break a story - unless it's really badly executed or really well executed.
Generally, a lot of the best writer's in the world have used 'Mary Sue's to some degree or another. Sure, everyone knows that Drizzt is Bob Salvatore in black make up and purple contacts, but a lot of those same people seem reluctant to accept that Tolkein used Gandalf in a similar way (or maybe it was Aragorn, or Frodo...). Same goes for Conan Doyle with Holmes, Kane with Batman, Alcott with Amy, Orwell with Winston, Plath with Esther... the difference between all these, and that crappy fanfiction you read last week? Good writing.“I promise, we will find all your moms. And I'm gonna tell!.”- Wonder Woman
Avatar by FdL
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2007-09-22, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-09-22, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Right. First off, if this is how the author concieves of good writing I may as well call her rant "art" and say it's not for me. It took me several minutes to figure out what in the world she is trying to say at all and who her target audience is. Now I've never been a fan of Manga, Anime, Fantasy Lit, etc so I'm sure many of the references she made slipped right by me. I'm not even sure I know what she ment by fanfic for instance. Racking my brain for any refference to a "Mary Sue" in any of my Litriture or English classes came up totally blank but I think I eventually got it.....I'll give the beni and just assume I had a hangover or was reading Tropic of Capricorn that day. As for what I think she means I'd say the character type is widly used in many forms of lit but generally in most well regarded lit. it is used with vastly more subtlety than in her prefered Manga style. Apparently the idea of character self insertion seems to be new to her or at least the idea that this is used in Western Lit. The story that when asked who of the many women claiming to have inspired Madame Bovary was correct Flaubert simply said "C'est Moi". Also the idea that if you (the reader-or more generally the consumer of art) don't like the product she touts the wonders of then it's your own fault could well be applied to her as well. I almost wish I had a mirror to hold up to her as she ranted this in my face.
EDIT: and shouldn't this be in Media not FB?Last edited by sktarq; 2007-09-22 at 03:34 PM.
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2007-09-22, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
And Anita Blake is Laurell K Hamilton. She even used her own description. All I can say is that I used to like those books, back when the character wasn't sleeping with most of the vampires and werecreatures in St Louis. I didn't care about the irredeemable Sueness of the characters, They were fun and light enough to give me what I wanted (which was a quick read when taking a break from essays) but now, if I have to hear about that frickin' wereleopard's (and anyone who's read the later books knows who I mean) *ahem* vital statistics, I swear I'll scream. I've already stopped reading them because of the descent from passable Mary Sue adventure into bodice ripper.
"What's in this empty box ?"
"Youth and talent is no match for age and treachery."
Mechwarrior by Elder Tsofu
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2007-09-22, 04:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
So True Art has certain objectively measurable qualities, and one can determine how close to True Art any given work is by measuring it against the hypothetical Perfect Example of True Art? 'Cause it sound to me like that's what you're saying there, and I can't disagree more. Art, like Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
As an aside from the discussion of Mary Sues, what about fanfiction is inherently bad? What is wrong with it? I really don't understand the mindset that it is somehow morally wrong to enjoy a work of fiction to the point where one is driven to create one's own sequel to it.
We're getting back to True Art being objective again. I'll say that there is no reason that a "fanfic in which you put yourelf into the story to have sex with Ichido" must perforce be badly written, although I do grant that it is likely.
Why? What is shameful about using the creative process as a release for pent-up emotions (and it sound like that's what your talking about here)? It might very badly written, but that's a separate issue, in my mind.
But opinions, being subjective, are exempt from being wrong, at least in the sense you seem to be using. You can disagree with someone's opinion, but that doesn't make their opinion wrong. Or didn't you get that memo? Are we back to True Art again?
I'd like to reiterate that I am not the author of the article. Your arguments above seem directed at me; in fact they verge on ad hominem attacks: "about which you don't know the first damned thing," "Your cocksureness speaks volumes".
Perfection can only exist in regards to an objective standard. In the absence of such a standard, perfection becomes meaningless.
Since in the real world people have differing tastes in entertainment, I will maintain my stance that there is no objective measure of artistic perfection until it has been proven otherwise to my satisfaction.
Given the great differences in taste between me and someone who enjoys, say, romance novels, I have to say that your sarcasm is misplaced.
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2007-09-22, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
So what are your thoughts about this article, Lord Iames Osari?
You have addressed, from all the replies you got, only the one from Arameus; partially, I can see why you did so, since his post was the one which stuck the closest to the original article, but still I would be interested in hearing your opinion concerning the different points raised by the other people in this thread.
I have just checked on both Wikipedia and TVTropes. Neither states "self insertion character" as the exclusive definining element of the term Mary Sue; especially the latter source neglects this aspect almost completely and defines a Mary Sue rather by the character's ridiculous perfection, power and flawlessness. By this definition, I find the author of the article you presented completely missed what people actually loathe about Mary Sues, which pretty much reduces the entire article into one large straw man's argument.LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2007-09-22, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
OK, I persevered though that article and I feel not only obligated to write something, but that if don't I'm almost being robbed of something I deserve.
So I'm writing a comment.
I'm not totally sure what so say though.
Just because someone (or a bunch of people) do something doesn't mean it's good.
Just because it captures a certain part of someone's imagination doesn't mean that it's good, or mature.
If it captures a juvenile aspect of someone's imagination and you enjoy it that's fine, but it doesn't make it sophisticated art.
I myself enjoy some things that I know are less that that refined sophisticated art; the difference is that I know those things aren't refined sophisticated art.
People are free to have fun reading and writing terrible anime and stupid fan-fics; I wont stop them.
I would appreciate it, however, if they don't preach to me how ignorant and jaded I am because I can recognise the fact that those things are less that refined sophisticated art.
Oh, gods, I'm starting to rant.
I'll finish off my telling you all what I finally realised this article reminds me of: Chris Crocker's "Leave Brittany Alone" rant.
(I'm sorry for bringing it up, anyone who hasn't seen it, do yourself a favour: keep it that way.)
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2007-09-22, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2007-09-22, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
“Life is made up of constant calls to action, and we seldom have time for more than hastily contrived answers.” -- Learned Hand
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2007-09-22, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
It may well be, but I think that the article does a good job defending against the criticisms of the self-insertion aspect of Mary Suedom (which I have seen). The accusations that Mary Sue characters are too perfect to be interesting is not always true (though it may be often true, in which cases it's a valid criticism), nor is it always true (as I have seen many claim) that a Mary Sue character automatically makes a story a badly written one. I'm looking at you, Rowanomicon.
Last edited by Lord Iames Osari; 2007-09-22 at 05:37 PM.
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2007-09-22, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
All right. Thank you for answering.
In that respect, I guess this specific part of the article I could agree with, though not necessarily with the overly aggressive tone chosen by the author.
The part I will disagree though is that part about "if you don't like it, don't read it.". That's just plainly arrogant. While tastes may differ, not everything that is creative work is, just by being that, immediately flawless. There is next to nothing made by humans where constructive criticism could not serve to improve the work in question.LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2007-09-22, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Thank you sir, for showing me I am not alone in this world.
That was coincidently my first thought upon reading Cerulean Sins.
I was in a bookshop today (Waterstones which is the major bookstore chain here in the UK) and I read a sign saying that LKH and a couple of others had been given a whole new section all to themselves entitled "Erotic Horror". (The only horror is how bad they've become). Seriously, it's in the old Ottakars in Coventry. It's gone so sex mad that they've had to move it.
"What's in this empty box ?"
"Youth and talent is no match for age and treachery."
Mechwarrior by Elder Tsofu
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2007-09-22, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Totally agree. I tend to dislike fan-fiction because I can't help to perceive it as an exercise in self-indulgence.
Regarding Mary Sues, I think any character which is too idealized and has no flaws tends to be boring. In japanese media you often get this type of character as the main one, but it's often balanced from a better secondary character cast, from which it benefits. In any case, a more fleshed, three-dimensional character is always preferrable.
Oh, the empowered school teenager thing is not exclusive to japanese stuff, but boy, do they take it too far. I just can't buy it. You are introduced to any sort of crazy characters, from mecha pilots to assasins, to people with awesome powers and who lead lives fraught with danger and face death and world-affecting mature issues. And then you learn that they are school pupils on their regular time? Come on!
A little of that can be cute, but they overdo it IMHO. Let's not even mention those which describe student councils who are omnipotent even outside the institution, or when both female and male students look like they're well into their 20s (that's kinda freaky).
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2007-09-22, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Who Cares About Mary Sue?
Haha... that's great... and utterly warranted. Her recent books need to be kept away from the rest of the fantasy, horrow, and sci-fi.... I mean... they probably have STDs. You know... from all the banging.
It really is a sad degeneration. Anita Blake was always a blatant author self-insert and Mary Sue, but it was more than tolerable precisely because she was very entertaining. Now...
It's like staring at a trainwreck. You know you should turn away and go about your business... but there's the macabre curiousity that demands you see just how bad it's going to get.Last edited by BlackStaticWolf; 2007-09-22 at 06:23 PM.
“Life is made up of constant calls to action, and we seldom have time for more than hastily contrived answers.” -- Learned Hand