PF - Playing As a Lump of Time

[unseenmage]

So, using the Monsters as Characters rules, how does a CR 3, medium, Animated Object stack up as a PC?

Does it get wonky with CP abilities? Additional CP?

Wonkier still if it's a medium sized wad of animated 3.x Quintessence?

Edit: Awakened, of course.

[Florian]

Always those old rules. Please go with RP to find your answer.

[unseenmage]

Always those old rules. Please go with RP to find your answer.

No.

Sorry you disagree but that's just not how our table is doing things at present.

[rel]

To make a animated ball of quintessence PC I suggest starting with an ooze.
Pick an appropriate ooze for the level of the party, type of game and so on.
Give it some construct type features and strip out anything that doesn't fit (e.g. division).

Add an engulf ability that results in the target swallowed by the ooze and encased in quintessence instead of taking damage.

If you like add an ability to generate more quintessence (maybe as per the spell once a week or something).

[upho]

Wonkier still if it's a medium sized wad of animated 3.x Quintessence?

Ha ha! Love it!

I can't think of anything even remotely as wonky, really. Though in practice, I believe there's quite a risk you'll find it very difficult get around the fact that to get enough quintessence for the volume of a Medium sized animated object, you'd likely need your "mom"/"dad" to manifest quintessence no less than a whopping 4,000 times....

Oh, and here's the PF version of quintessence (though nothing important has changed from the 3.5 version IIRC).

[Florian]

No.

Sorry you disagree but that's just not how our table is doing things at present.

I disagree with using the monsters as crackers rules and expecting a useful result from that especially when it comes to fringe cases, while the whole ratial points systems was introduced to replace the monsters as characters rules whole cloth. See the two different approaches to handling the Drider.

[Razade]

I disagree with using the monsters as crackers rules and expecting a useful result from that especially when it comes to fringe cases, while the whole ratial points systems was introduced to replace the monsters as characters rules whole cloth. See the two different approaches to handling the Drider.

He's said that's not what his table is doing. Continuing to argue about it isn't going to help. The OP is asking how to do it with the parameters he's able to use.

[the_david]

I'd say it would get 2 CP, like any other medium sized animated object. If you want an ability that would cost more than 2CP it will increase your CR by 1 for every 2 CP above your max. What you probably want is the engulf ability, and something that completely immobilizes whatever is inside the animated object. It also hinders psionic activity within a 5 ft radius.
Being an awakened construct might also raise your CR.
(Even if all of those abilities cost CP1 each, you'd already be at CR4 instead of 3.)

Ask your DM how many CP it's going to cost you.

Edit: My bad, you wanted to know how it's going to compare to the rest of your party. It's hard to say. I'm assuming your party will also be playing monsters, so there's no way of telling how they would compare to your animated object. That said, you've got a one trick pony that is also immune to a lot of things. You can still be killed though.
The higher the DM judges your CR to be, the weaker you'd be compared to your teammates. I guess that sums it up nicely.

[Florian]

He's said that's not what his table is doing. Continuing to argue about it isn't going to help. The OP is asking how to do it with the parameters he's able to use.

He said "at present". I merely point out that a non-functional system got replaced by another (ok, admittedly also non-functional) system to handle that very same issue. The "Monsters as characters" rules work based on the assumption that the underlying math is tight, therefore the CR rating is the equivalent of a default character class (Pathfinder Unchained is quite helpful for understanding this).

As I understand it, unseenmage is asking the question whether the "Monsters as characters" rules will generate the desired result under specific conditions. My answer to that is to use the RP system to counter-check the result, which then will answer the question. PF entirely removed LA and shifted that whole topic over how the Average Party Level (APL) affects the XP and CR calculation (Meaning stuff like Aasimar and Tieflings being worth 1.5 Humans. Have two in a regular party and the APL raises by one). So the correct answer is to find out whether or not a blob of awakened Quintessence clocks in at the same point value as a standard race with equivalent class levels relative to CR. If the value is either too high or too low then no, it shouldn't fit or work out. That is independent of the rules-set you're actually using "at present" (or if you consider changing your rules).

[OgresAreCute]

I'm just wondering what course of events could make you want to play a time-goop blob.

[unseenmage]

He said "at present". I merely point out that a non-functional system got replaced by another (ok, admittedly also non-functional) system to handle that very same issue. The "Monsters as characters" rules work based on the assumption that the underlying math is tight, therefore the CR rating is the equivalent of a default character class (Pathfinder Unchained is quite helpful for understanding this).

As I understand it, unseenmage is asking the question whether the "Monsters as characters" rules will generate the desired result under specific conditions. My answer to that is to use the RP system to counter-check the result, which then will answer the question. PF entirely removed LA and shifted that whole topic over how the Average Party Level (APL) affects the XP and CR calculation (Meaning stuff like Aasimar and Tieflings being worth 1.5 Humans. Have two in a regular party and the APL raises by one). So the correct answer is to find out whether or not a blob of awakened Quintessence clocks in at the same point value as a standard race with equivalent class levels relative to CR. If the value is either too high or too low then no, it shouldn't fit or work out. That is independent of the rules-set you're actually using "at present" (or if you consider changing your rules).

Thank you for explaining your response more clearly.

And we do use the RP system, to make new races. We find it insufficient to replicating monster characters.

That said the Monsters as Chars rules have their own peccadilloes. There are 'sweet spots' of CR where your character can be more powerful than you compatriots.

However, a monster character whose abilities do not scale finds their usefulness drop off as everyone else gains levels and additional superpowers.


If it helps our group also doesnt gain xp, we just gain levels when we accomplish important stuff.

I'm just wondering what course of events could make you want to play a time-goop blob.

Honestly? Because by the time I can make them as a character they're pretty useless as minions.

Also, my current character, an Amalgam Doppelganger Mimic, is an experimental arcane espianage tool made and used by the ancient nations whose war is responsible for creating the Mana Wastes in Gokarion.

The GM has rolled with it and we keep discovering other, stranger experiments from that bygone era. Time blob should fit right in.



As to the CR of the Quintessence, unless the additional CP for additional CR is implemented my guess is that CR 3 is as high as it'll get.
Adding Swallow Whole or Engulf vs helpless or unconscious foes and objects would seem a must. And a sticky wad of material could likely get a climb speed.

FYI, Quintessence floats on water IIRC. Though I'm not certain how much bigger a medium creature version of the listed 1 in., 1 oz. blob would be precisely. Probably it would be as small as possible while still being medium size due to the trouble accumulating any useful volume of the stuff.


Another thought I had was whether a Minor Servitor version would be appreciably different. My gut says it wouldn't.

[Psyren]

So, using the Monsters as Characters rules, how does a CR 3, medium, Animated Object stack up as a PC?

Does it get wonky with CP abilities? Additional CP?

Wonkier still if it's a medium sized wad of animated 3.x Quintessence?

Edit: Awakened, of course.

Part of the problem is that we can't really define terms like "wonky." What might be a bizarre or undesirable result at my table would (by my guess) be completely expected or sought-after at yours, and vice-versa.

The main thing that I'll point out is that Challenge Rating is a guideline, not an absolute metric. When you start with a CR 3 monster that has not agency or ability to execute complex thought processes and give it both of those things, the CR should reflect that, whether or not the Awaken Construct spell specifically tells you to do so. Then, whichever "monster as PC" rule you go with (which are also guidelines) should be using that adjusted measure of APL as its starting point.

Lastly, I'd view quintessence as a spell effect rather than an "object" - it's like saying you're trying to animate a binding circle or a wall of force. And that's putting aside the fact that it doesn't actually exist in PF (1st-party anyway.)

[unseenmage]

Our table allows Quintessence as an object because of the Instantaneous duration and the listed weight and volume.

As for adjusting CR for Awaken, if the Construct was a powerhouse beforehand I could maybe see it but weak as Animated Objects are an increase in CR seems doubtful.

I'm not adept enough with PF's CR assignment guidelines to say either way though.


And Quintessence does exist in PF, just not in the form of condensed time. My GM has okayed its use this way though so no worries.

[Florian]

@unseenmage:

I'm quite aware of RP being a failure. The major thing is coming up with a solution to try to compare a complex monster to levels in a class and then go to the next step and look at what happens when that exact monsters takes levels in a class. The complexity there is staggering and not really worth a formalized approach, if you ask me.

This is why we on the forum a most likely unable to help you on this topic. Without knowing and understanding the range of what you consider to be "normal" fo your table, it´s a bit hard to gauge whether something can be considered to be "wonky" or not.

[Quertus]

Part of the problem is that we can't really define terms like "wonky." What might be a bizarre or undesirable result at my table would (by my guess) be completely expected or sought-after at yours, and vice-versa.

The main thing that I'll point out is that Challenge Rating is a guideline, not an absolute metric. When you start with a CR 3 monster that has not agency or ability to execute complex thought processes and give it both of those things, the CR should reflect that, whether or not the Awaken Construct spell specifically tells you to do so. Then, whichever "monster as PC" rule you go with (which are also guidelines) should be using that adjusted measure of APL as its starting point.

I mean, if the table cares about balance, I'm all about letting a Druid 8 adventure with a Druid 20, if the player skill and optimization level of the build makes that balanced.

So, OP, do what works for your table. At my table, that little ball of time would be way cool, but likely mildly (but not unplayably) underpowered at high level if it cost you 3 levels.

[unseenmage]

IIRC up to 3 or 4 CR can be kind of effectively bought off.

Our resident rules guru hates when I call it that though. The way it works it always reminds me of the old LA buff rules so that's how I refer to it.

[OgresAreCute]

IIRC up to 3 or 4 CR can be kind of effectively bought off.

Our resident rules guru hates when I call it that though. The way it works it always reminds me of the old LA buff rules so that's how I refer to it.

Are you referring to this?

It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down.

A CR 3 lump would only be able to "buy off" one level.

[unseenmage]

So, I've been pondering this idea some and there are some practical issues, namely the lack of limbs and that quintessence is... gooey.

Seriously, how would it navigate the world without sticking to EVERYTHING?

Also, in PF how many body slots do amorphous animated objects have?

[RoboEmperor]

So, I've been pondering this idea some and there are some practical issues, namely the lack of limbs and that quintessence is... gooey.

Seriously, how would it navigate the world without sticking to EVERYTHING?

Also, in PF how many body slots do amorphous animated objects have?

Simple, everything will stick to it.

Try it yourself. Throw playdough onto the ground and roll it around. Eventually nothing sticks to it because it's a ball of garbage.

[OgresAreCute]

Simple, everything will stick to it.

Try it yourself. Throw playdough onto the ground and roll it around. Eventually nothing sticks to it because it's a ball of garbage.

What?! LUMP OF TIME is evolving!
...
Congratulations! Your LUMP OF TIME evolved into a BALL OF GARBAGE!

[unseenmage]

Just one more use for a bag of flour on an adventure I suppose.