Sad about Suggestion

[Club Sandwich]

Hey all, I wondered if you guys could offer opinions on a specific ruling made on the Suggestion spell.

So I played with a new group the other day (I was filling in for a friend who was absent). It was all gravy. We were fighting a somewhat epic fight, which I was (in character) sneaking away from. The rest of the party were engaged fighting an insanely tough dragonborn, and only just winning. I had poked my head through a door, only to find myself face to face with a member of the dwarf's party, a nasty looking drow mercenary. Enter the suggestion spell. I had a minimum of movement left, so rather than run back down the corridor and get pursued and squished, I quickened a 'Suggestion' to tell the drow "your dragonborn friend's getting ****ed up. You need to help him out!". The DM (as is his right) didn't bother to make a saving throw for the drow, who on his next turn charged straight for me and nearly one hit killed me. Yay.

Now, the spell says the suggestion must be phrased to sound reasonable, and telling a creature to stab itself, immolate itself, or take other obviously self-injurious actions will make the spell end. The example it gives of a good suggestion is telling a knight to give his horse away, which seems to imply that it has a fair amount of power to make people act out of character and outside of their own interests.


Now to the DM's credit, he warned me that in his mind it would be hard to make suggestion work, and I'd need to make it sound very reasonable to have a chance. I cast it because I'm always down for a challenge, and I wanted to see if I could make it work. The reasons he gave for his ruling were that:
1) The drow knows that the fighter's doing his job where he is.

2) Suggestion is an out of combat spell, and doesn't really work in combat against people you're fighting.

It kind of seems that with this ruling, the suggestion spell is kind of pointless and definitely not worth a second level spell slot. The impression I got was that the DM thought it only has the power to make people do pretty much what they were going to do anyway.
Thoughts? Does telling an enemy to go and help his ally instead of attacking the caster sound reasonable to you? What would you rule in your campaign?

Sorry for the massive essay. Just as a DM myself, I find his ruling odd and definitely outside of RAW and RAI.

[Unoriginal]

Hey all, I wondered if you guys could offer opinions on a specific ruling made on the Suggestion spell.

So I played with a new group the other day (I was filling in for a friend who was absent). It was all gravy. We were fighting a somewhat epic fight, which I was (in character) sneaking away from. The rest of the party were engaged fighting an insanely tough dragonborn, and only just winning. I had poked my head through a door, only to find myself face to face with a member of the dwarf's party, a nasty looking drow mercenary. Enter the suggestion spell. I had a minimum of movement left, so rather than run back down the corridor and get pursued and squished, I quickened a 'Suggestion' to tell the drow "your dragonborn friend's getting ****ed up. You need to help him out!". The DM (as is his right) didn't bother to make a saving throw for the drow, who on his next turn charged straight for me and nearly one hit killed me. Yay.

Now, the spell says the suggestion must be phrased to sound reasonable, and telling a creature to stab itself, immolate itself, or take other obviously self-injurious actions will make the spell end. The example it gives of a good suggestion is telling a knight to give his horse away, which seems to imply that it has a fair amount of power to make people act out of character and outside of their own interests.


Now to the DM's credit, he warned me that in his mind it would be hard to make suggestion work, and I'd need to make it sound very reasonable to have a chance. I cast it because I'm always down for a challenge, and I wanted to see if I could make it work. The reasons he gave for his ruling were that:
1) The drow knows that the fighter's doing his job where he is.

2) Suggestion is an out of combat spell, and doesn't really work in combat against people you're fighting.

It kind of seems that with this ruling, the suggestion spell is kind of pointless and definitely not worth a second level spell slot. The impression I got was that the DM thought it only has the power to make people do pretty much what they were going to do anyway.
Thoughts? Does telling an enemy to go and help his ally instead of attacking the caster sound reasonable to you? What would you rule in your campaign?

Sorry for the massive essay. Just as a DM myself, I find his ruling odd and definitely outside of RAW and RAI.

"Suggestion is an out of combat spell" is straight up bs, if the DM is implying that's what the rules say. As long as the Suggested person isn't harmed after you've charmed them, the Suggestion work. If that's one of their houserules, which they have the right to make as they wish, the DM should say so before you use it and not make you waste your turn, your spell slots, and your sorcery points.

Personally, I think "The drow knows that the fighter's doing his job where he is" isn't a reasonable argument either. The Knight knows that giving the horse isn't a good idea, either. Suggestion makes you *believe* it's a good suggestion, and "you need to help a fighter" isn't unreasonable or even harmful. It's not like you were an active threat.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I quickened a 'Suggestion' to tell the drow "your dragonborn friend's getting ****ed up. You need to help him out!". The DM (as is his right) didn't bother to make a saving throw for the drow, who on his next turn charged straight for me and nearly one hit killed me. Yay.

Thoughts? Does telling an enemy to go and help his ally instead of attacking the caster sound reasonable to you? What would you rule in your campaign?

I've done something very, very similar in combat (I think I told one combatant that the castle gate was open and unguarded, and our allies would soon walk right in). The soldier failed his save, and off he went.

Your Suggestion sounded quite reasonable to me, and should have had a chance to work. The only question I'd have is one of interpretation: if the drow already knew that you were one of the group attacking the dragonborn, he could reasonably decide that he was helping the dragonborn out by attacking you.

So, yeah. Your DM unreasonably nerfed the spell based upon his lame explanation.

[Club Sandwich]

the DM should say so before you use it and not make you waste your turn, your spell slots, and your sorcery points.

I'm not too concerned about that, since they did give a fair amount of warning that 'this probably won't work'. My sadness is more about a level 2 spell being reinterpreted to basically being the same power level as the 'friends' cantrip.

But yeah, your thoughts are the same as mine.

[NaughtyTiger]

Man, that is a great suggestion.

IF the DM had followed Guy Lombard-o's reasoning... attacking you IS helping my buddy. sure, but he just hosed you arbitrarily.

[Contrast]

It may be worth pointing out to your DM that he just made Suggestion worse than Command. I would also point out Charm Person says you get advantage on the save if you're fighting the person at the time, Suggestion doesn't say that.

It's also worth stressing the thing has to sound reasonable, not necessarily be reasonable. A knight isn't just going to spend the next 8 hours walking around town trying to give away his horse to a random beggar - this is magic, not a persuade check. He may well know the fighter is doing his job...until you magically forced a seed of doubt into his mind.

Would your DM rule that an enemy ignored the Hold Person spell because they were really strong and he felt that they could just fight through the effects?

You get a couple of sentences so you can try and fluff it up a little to offer additional justification. The path of least resistance of course would be just asking your DM if you can swap out the spell now you know how they're going to rule it.

[Club Sandwich]

The only question I'd have is one of interpretation: if the drow already knew that you were one of the group attacking the dragonborn, he could reasonably decide that he was helping the dragonborn out by attacking you.

That's a very fair point you raise. And if the drow had even bothered to make a save, that might have been a reasonable course of action.

[Aetis]

All the fairness aside, if the DM warned you "it would be very difficult to make it work", then he probably didn't feel comfortable working with the spell's original intent, and you were almost certainly better off looking for an alternative solution.

[Club Sandwich]

I would also point out Charm Person says you get advantage on the save if you're fighting the person at the time, Suggestion doesn't say that.

Ahh that is a very useful bit of supporting evidence! I think his impression of it being meant for out of combat situations is in part due to suggestion's long duration (8 hours with concentration).

The path of least resistance of course would be just asking your DM if you can swap out the spell now you know how they're going to rule it.

Sadly the character isn't mine, I'm filling in for a friend who's away for a month or two, so I'll have to convince him to swap it out. But yeah, that would defos be the option I'm looking at.

[Club Sandwich]

All the fairness aside, if the DM warned you "it would be very difficult to make it work", then he probably didn't feel comfortable working with the spell's original intent, and you were almost certainly better off looking for an alternative solution.

Yeah, I mean I definitely went into it knowing that it may fail. It's totally his right to interpret the spell how he wants, I'm just interested to see if it's a common interpretation.

[RipTide]

2) Suggestion is an out of combat spell, and doesn't really work in combat against people you're fighting.

If this were at all part of the spell it would say so. For example Charm Person reads "It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it."

Suggestion is admittedly very powerful, 8 hour duration, 2nd level spell only limited by your ability to craft a sentence. So I can understand wanting to limit it a bit. At the same time the fact he didn't even give it a chance, especially for such a reasonable suggestion, guts the spell unnecessarily.

[Unoriginal]

The drow could also have taken you hostage to force the group to stop attacking the dragonborn.

[NaughtyTiger]

Yeah, I mean I definitely went into it knowing that it may fail. It's totally his right to interpret the spell how he wants, I'm just interested to see if it's a common interpretation.

You are being unnecessarily gracious. he screwed up. and in the process screwed you.

[Club Sandwich]

You are being unnecessarily gracious. he screwed up. and in the process screwed you.

Hah, I try not to get hung up on things. The rest of the fight was epic AF, so I'll let one or two screw ups slide

[Club Sandwich]

The drow could also have taken you hostage to force the group to stop attacking the dragonborn.

You sound like a creative and sadistic DM.

I'm all for that.

[JellyPooga]

While I agree that Suggestion can be used in combat, I'm also of the opinion that what sounds reasonable while you're enganged in a melee is also very limited. In addition, the vagueness of "help the fighter" is enough to warrant pretty much anything the target did as a valid response, even if he did fail the save. Further, were the Suggestion to be more specific; e.g. "go stand next to the fighter" or "attack that guy, not me", verges into the "why would that be reasonable?" territory.

Suggestion is a powerful spell, but it's also only a lvl.2 one. It's far from a god-spell and certainly not the auto-pick that many seem to think it is. Its utility is mostly out of combat, which isn't to say that it can't be used in combat, but there are spells that have direct combat applicability, such as Crown of Madness or, as someone else suggested, Command. Suggestion should not be standing on those spells toes, no matter how you phrase the legalese of the wording.

As a rule of thumb, if another spell would have the same effect as your Suggestion, your Suggestion is probably inappropriate and you should use that other spell instead.

[Segev]

While I agree that this sounds like an unreasonable nerfing of the spell, there's no real use in coming to strangers on the internet to try to persuade your DM. You're best off just writing off suggestion as not useful in this DM's campaigns.

[Digimike]

While I agree that Suggestion can be used in combat, I'm also of the opinion that what sounds reasonable while you're enganged in a melee is also very limited. In addition, the vagueness of "help the fighter" is enough to warrant pretty much anything the target did as a valid response, even if he did fail the save. Further, were the Suggestion to be more specific; e.g. "go stand next to the fighter" or "attack that guy, not me", verges into the "why would that be reasonable?" territory.

Suggestion is a powerful spell, but it's also only a lvl.2 one. It's far from a god-spell and certainly not the auto-pick that many seem to think it is. Its utility is mostly out of combat, which isn't to say that it can't be used in combat, but there are spells that have direct combat applicability, such as Crown of Madness or, as someone else suggested, Command. Suggestion should not be standing on those spells toes, no matter how you phrase the legalese of the wording.

As a rule of thumb, if another spell would have the same effect as your Suggestion, your Suggestion is probably inappropriate and you should use that other spell instead.

I'll agree with the sentiments of some other posters. Your suggestion could have been worded better, but at the same time your DM nerfed the spell a bit hard. Suggestions is just fine for combat. Something like..."Head back to your room and rest for 8 hours" would have been perfectly reasonable and within the confines of the spell. Suggesting he aid an ally against other combatants should have been fine.

Now Drow do have advantage on saves vs charm spells, but he should have at least rolled for it.

[Club Sandwich]

While I agree that this sounds like an unreasonable nerfing of the spell, there's no real use in coming to strangers on the internet to try to persuade your DM. You're best off just writing off suggestion as not useful in this DM's campaigns.

At no point did I say this thread was an attempt to convince him. The point of this thread is to see if his interpretation is a one common in other games.

[Jophiel]

Its utility is mostly out of combat, which isn't to say that it can't be used in combat, but there are spells that have direct combat applicability, such as Crown of Madness or, as someone else suggested, Command. Suggestion should not be standing on those spells toes, no matter how you phrase the legalese of the wording.

Suggestion is basically a better version of Command, though. It can step on Command's toes because you're casting a higher level, better, spell that essentially does the same thing.

[Club Sandwich]

what sounds reasonable while you're enganged in a melee is also very limited. In addition, the vagueness of "help the fighter" is enough to warrant pretty much anything the target did as a valid response, even if he did fail the save.

I don't know about that. The way I understand it is that the spell plants a thought/urge in their head as though they had it. If it's unreasonable (like go jump off a cliff), they would ignore it. Because, well, of course they would (unless they were already suicidal). If it's something like the classic "These enemies are too strong. You should flee" then unless there's a good reason (they have a commander who executes deserters) then they may decide that a tactical retreat is indeed the best move.


Also, since the fight with the fighter was taking place in a different part of the dungeon from where the drow was, which he didn't need to go through me to access, attacking me would be a verrrry tenuous way of helping the fighter. But that's moot anyway. It didn't happen, because no saving throw was given.

[Club Sandwich]

Suggestion is basically a better version of Command, though. It can step on Command's toes because you're casting a higher level, better, spell that essentially does the same thing.

Agreed. In the same way that Major Image majorly steps on silent image's toes. It's meant to. It's basically that spell's upgrade.

[MaxWilson]

Suggestion is basically a better version of Command, though. It can step on Command's toes because you're casting a higher level, better, spell that essentially does the same thing.

Not to mention costing concentration, unlike Command.

[JellyPooga]

If it's something like the classic "These enemies are too strong. You should flee" then unless there's a good reason (they have a commander who executes deserters) then they may decide that a tactical retreat is indeed the best move.

There's a spell for that; it's called Cause Fear. Yes, Suggestion is a higher level, but that does not mean it should be able to duplicate the effects of another spell. I would tend to agree that Suggestion is somewhat of an upgrade from Command, much like Major Image and Silent Image, but there's also some discrepancies between the comparison; Major Image literally duplicates the effect of Silent Image and improves upon it. Command and Suggestion merely have similar effects and the latter has caveats the former does not (i.e. the "reasonable" clause). To argue that Suggestion must be capable of the same effefts as Command is like arguing that Scorching Ray should be able to affect an AoE like Burning Hands; their effects are similar (they both deal fire damage to multiple targets), but they have distinct differences; one is targetted and the other is an AoE.

[MaxWilson]

There's a spell for that; it's called Cause Fear. Yes, Suggestion is a higher level, but that does not mean it should be able to duplicate the effects of another spell. I would tend to agree that Suggestion is somewhat of an upgrade from Command, much like Major Image and Silent Image, but there's also some discrepancies between the comparison; Major Image literally duplicates the effect of Silent Image and improves upon it. Command and Suggestion merely have similar effects and the latter has caveats the former does not (i.e. the "reasonable" clause). To argue that Suggestion must be capable of the same effefts as Command is like arguing that Scorching Ray should be able to affect an AoE like Burning Hands; their effects are similar (they both deal fire damage to multiple targets), but they have distinct differences; one is targetted and the other is an AoE.

In practice, unreasonable commands are ignored by Command victims as well. "Suicide" is an intransitive verb, a 100% valid one-word command, but if you tell someone to suicide, I'd be shocked if even one DM in ten ruled that the target was forced to spend a full round of attacks on themselves.

[Jophiel]

In practice, unreasonable commands are ignored by Command victims as well. "Suicide" is an intransitive verb, a 100% valid one-word command, but if you tell someone to suicide, I'd be shocked if even one DM in ten ruled that the target was forced to spend a full round of attacks on themselves.

Likewise, Commanding someone near water to "Drown" almost certainly won't make them attempt to kill themselves, nor to "Jump" off a cliff (note that a flying creature won't plummet to harm from "Halt" per the PHB).

[PhantomSoul]

In practice, unreasonable commands are ignored by Command victims as well. "Suicide" is an intransitive verb, a 100% valid one-word command, but if you tell someone to suicide, I'd be shocked if even one DM in ten ruled that the target was forced to spend a full round of attacks on themselves.

And, in fact, the DM would be right to refuse it; Command says, "The spell has no effect [...] if your command is directly harmful to it."

[Club Sandwich]

There's a spell for that; it's called Cause Fear.

Sorry mate, but command - a level 1 spell - already can duplicate its effects. In the spell text for command it says you can command an opponent to 'flee'. What it doesn't give them is the 'frightened' condition that cause fear does.

Raw and RAI (and I'm all for people houseruling what they want) suggestion can step on those spells' toes because that's what the spell text says. It may well be more balanced to houserule it so it can't, but I don't think that's necessarily the point you were making?

[ad_hoc]

It's not that Suggestion is an out of combat spell, it's that it is a bad combat spell.

Something like Hold Person is much better as the scope of what you can get an enemy to do in combat is pretty narrow.

[MaxWilson]

And, in fact, the DM would be right to refuse it; Command says, "The spell has no effect [...] if your command is directly harmful to it."

Whoops! You are correct. Serves me right for not reading more carefully before I post.

I bet most DMs wouldn't rule in favor of a "kill!" or "strangle!" command either though, especially if only allies were within killing distance.